Shortall, RóisínThursday, 23 September 2010 |
Committee of Public Accounts Debate 
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I welcome all our visitors to the committee. I would like to pick up on the issues raised by my colleague with regard to remuneration packages. It seems that while progress has been made in recent y...
Mr. Boland lists the correspondence received during those years. The Comptroller and Auditor General refers to several occasions, including August 2001, July 2005 and February 2008, over a period of ...
What stern action was taken?
I asked a question about the provision of information dating back to 1997.
Perhaps we could start from there.
On what was that assumption based? In 1997 the HEA requested details of all remuneration packages and it received that information shortly afterwards. What did it indicate to the HEA?
There was no basis for that assumption?
With all due respect, that does not provide a basis. The HEA had a responsibility to ensure public money was being spent properly, that the universities were not exceeding the maximum pay scales allo...
Mr. McCarthy has quoted figures which indicate that the breaches were not significant in the early 2000s, but that they became worse in the mid-2000s. Can the HEA give us those figures?
Does the Department have figures to show the extent of the breaches since 1997?
Across all universities.
Do the figures cover allowances and bonuses?
That is the total for UCD. Is that correct?
Are there figures for bonuses?
They were the figures for certain years. Did the matter not arise before then?
These are the allowance figures. Is that correct?
These are the total figures. Is that correct?
Since 1997. Does the HEA have the corresponding figures for the other universities?
Why has the Department not done that exercise sooner? It is very difficult to get a handle on the matter to assess the extent of the practice and the cost the taxpayer.
Is that information available?
That would be appreciated. I wish to move on to examine some of the figures provided in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. I refer specifically to figures for UCD. In 2006, the remu...
What role does the chair of the governing body have in all this?
The beginning of the letter states that the HEA had taken some time to consider the situation.
I think that is a bit of an understatement. It took quite a considerable amount of time.
HEA officials knew this was an issue going back to 1998 and that the scale of the breaches was growing. They knew that in 2004 around €400,000 in public money had been paid out in allowances in breac...
Was it the case that everybody was being too polite?
We know all about the criticisms of the university that it is a rarefied world and a law unto itself. We can see why that view might be justified, given the “softly, softly” approach that was taken b...
OK, but the HEA would have known at an early stage that the universities did not understand the word “No”. What action was taken to bring this to the attention of both responsible Departments and the...
Can I put that question to Mr. McCarthy? What action, if any, did the Department of Education and Skills take when this problem became apparent?
What action did the Department take?
The situation then drifted between 1998 and 2006. It will be interesting to see the total figure for the breaches that took place during that period. It seems extraordinary to me that over an eight ...
Did the Department of Education and Skills threaten at any point to cut the funding to any of the universities, unless these practices stopped?
These practices that Mr. McCarthy was aware of continued for a ten year period.
It was a growing problem of which all the people concerned were aware over a ten year period and it was not until 2008 that a direct sanction was applied, namely, a threat to withdraw or withhold pay ...
The figure for UCD alone in 2000 was €100,000. Is that right?
That is a significant figure in the year 2000——
——in respect of one university. Can I ask the Department of Finance officials what action, if any, did they take over——
What action, if any, did the Department of Finance officials take during that period?
Did the Department express concern about it to the HEA and the Department of Education and Skills?
That was over a very protracted period. At some point did the Department of Finance not say this has to stop and put pressure on the Department of Education and Skills and the HEA?
I want to direct a specific question to Dr. Brady. The figures I have indicate that in 2003 his predecessor received allowances of €70,000 and the following year Dr. Brady was in receipt of allowance...
Dr. Brady might clarify the position.
Yes. Dr. Brady’s package then exceeds——
What was the total value of Dr. Brady’s package in 2004?
Dr. Brady might supply the committee with the figure for his total package in 2004 and that of his predecessor the previous year at his convenience.
Dr. Brady might just provide the figures for us. I am aware of the time pressure, Chairman, but I want to ask about the discretionary pension awards. In terms of the examples provided to us in the Co...
What do contracts state about pension arrangements?
Is there a current standard contract that applies now to all senior staff in universities?
What does that say in regard to added on years?
Why was the practice allowed to continue over a number of years whereby the public service arrangements were exceeded?
To sum up, we know many practices were going on in the universities in recent years which were ultra vires in respect of pay and pensions. We know that both the HEA and the two Departments were invol...
Is Mr. McCarthy in a position to say at this point, therefore, that all the universities are adhering to that standard that has been set?
Mr. McCarthy is saying there is that adherence now.
There is a declaration of adherence. That declaration has been signed by each of the universities, is that right?
Eventually. Regarding best practice, what does that say about the type of and provisions of the contract regarding the number of hours university staff should work?
Surely, a contract should stipulate the minimum number of hours a person is expected to work?
Therefore, in addition to all the irregularities that have been uncovered over the past decade, Mr. Boland is telling us that he does not know or that there is no requirement on any university staff t...
That is not set down in contract.
How is the expectation of what is required by staff relayed to a staff member if it is not in a contract? How does one let people know what one expects from them?
How are those outputs measured?
I am not talking in general terms but about specific staff members. If a staff member is employed at whatever salary one would like to mention, surely it is set down somewhere what one expects of tha...
How does one measure the performance of that person?
Specifically, in terms of hours, how many hours would a senior staff member be expected to work?
Fine. I do not mean to be disrespectful but it is not enough simply to expect us to take Mr. Costello’s word for that. What performance indicators are there in the universities? How do they measure...
What is the breakdown in hours between those different activities?
Percentage of what?
Mr. Costello might clarify those percentages, 40%, 40% and 20%.
In teaching terms, to what number of hours does the 40% apply?
Most workers have to do a minimum number of hours. I am asking if there any system in place to ensure that university staff do a minimum number of hours. That is a reasonable question.
How many hours is a person required to work? What is the minimum number of hours?
There is not a minimum requirement.
How then does one measure a person’s performance?
I am at a loss to know how Mr. Costello can possibly——
We do not know whether it is typical or not because there is no measurement there.
A situation where a person is given a very well paid job without any stipulation about the minimum number of hours required to be worked seems to be extraordinary. Does Mr. Boland have any view on th...
It is not adequate just to review and to report back to us. There should be a minimum expectation on staff. Dr. Murphy said he found that staff had 180 contact hours.
Over how many weeks?
Say 30 weeks. Would that be——
Some 30 weeks. That is six hours per week.
In terms of the 40-40-20 referred to earlier, if six hours is 40% of the week, we are talking about the full week being 15 hours.
This is a matter of considerable concern to parents. Many of us have had experience where young people having worked hard in the leaving certificate go to college, perhaps with a lot of points, and d...
What do we know about international best practice in this regard?
So our guests were not making——
Surely the Department of Finance can supply the relevant figures.
What were the liabilities?
To follow on from that point, I have concerns that this is a recommendation rather than a requirement for a university. The Comptroller and Auditor General drew specific attention to the problem tha...
With all due respect, the Comptroller and Auditor General had difficulties in identifying income and expenditure on student service charges.
Is it set out for each of the universities?
What is not clear is how many students are paying the charge in each of the universities.
Perhaps that can be circulated to us. A large number of issues have arisen today. In some ways, it has been difficult to get basic information. The Comptroller and Auditor General also has had diff...
In response I point out that it is only in an atmosphere of transparency, in which people are absolutely open about the situation, that we can actually discuss these issues.
I trust what Dr. Murphy is saying, but in terms of what we have been looking at in recent years, the record would not point to this.
That is the difficulty. There is a certain refurbishment of people’s reputations and records to be undertaken.
Mr. McCarthy might update the committee on the progress——
——of these outstanding matters, perhaps on a quarterly basis. We will keep an eye on it.
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