The Joint Committee met at 1.30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Deputy M. Brady,  | Deputy J. Perry, | | Deputy T. Broughan, | Deputy Eamon Ryan, | | Deputy B. Durkan, | Senator P. Coghlan,* | | Deputy D. Fitzpatrick, | Senator B. Kenneally, | | Deputy P. Kelly, | Senator K. O’Meara, | | Deputy B. Moynihan-Cronin,† | Senator J. Phelan.* | | Deputy D. O’Donovan, | |
*In the absence of Senators M. Finucane and M. MacSharry, respectively. †In the absence of Deputy T. Broughan for part of meeting. In attendance: Deputy J. Healy-Rae. DEPUTY N. O’FLYNN IN THE CHAIR. The joint committee met in private session until 1.35 p.m.  Environmental Rehabilitation Project: Presentation.
Chairman: I welcome Mr. Michael Guilfoyle, assistant secretary of the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, and Mr. Michael Daly. We will hear a short presentation which will be followed by questions. I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to witnesses. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Further, under the salient rulings of the Chair, Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite the members of the Black Valley Community Group to sit in the Visitors Gallery. Mr. Guilfoyle must realise why he has been asked to attend. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and his Department have come up with a solution for the tailings pond at Silvermines. The committee is anxious to close off this part of its work, in which it has been involved with the Department. We have already publicly thanked the Minister for bringing this matter to a conclusion. I record our sincere thanks to Mr. Guilfoyle, Mr. Daly and the officials in their Department for their work. If Mr. Guilfoyle will tell us how the Department intends to proceed, Senator O’Meara will then question the witnesses. Mr. Michael Guilfoyle: The Department is pleased to accept the invitation to address the committee in regard to the Silvermines rehabilitation. I do not propose to dwell on the background to the issues surrounding the decision to rehabilitate the historic mining sites at Silvermines, County Tipperary, in any great detail as the committee is well aware of the situation from the Department’s previous appearances and the committee’s visits to the Silvermines area. As members are aware, mining was carried out in Silvermines under a mixture of State and private licences from the 1900s until mining activity ceased over 20 years ago. The State has no liability for the former private licences. Arising from complaints about dust blows and cattle deaths in the area, the Environmental Protection Agency produced a report in January 1999 which stated, among other things, that the Gortmore tailings mining facility would pose a perpetual risk to human and animal health and the environment unless it was properly managed. As a result, an inter-agency group, chaired by the Department of Agriculture and Food, presented a report in June 2000 on the presence and influence of lead in the Silvermines area. In compliance with one of its recommendations, the then Department of Marine and Natural Resources commissioned SRK UK Limited to carry out an integrated study of the area. Members will be aware that the consultants presented their report in May 2002. This report included a schedule of works for costed management plans for presentation to Mogul of Ireland under clause K of the State mining lease. Mogul responded positively to a request that it comply with clause K. However, after ongoing discussions and a number of meetings in which the county council, the Environmental Protection Agency and the local community were involved, serious doubts emerged from all of the stakeholders concerning Mogul’s financial and technical capability to carry out the works to the standard required. While Mogul’s initial outline proposal was conceptually acceptable, the detailed final proposals were not acceptable to the Department and other stakeholders as they would not provide a sustainable solution to the rehabilitation process. In January 2005 the Department concluded that Mogul could not deliver a satisfactory rehabilitation programme and that further dialogue on the issue was pointless. Further to this and at the Minister’s request, the Department submitted a detailed report to the Minister at the end of February 2005. The Minister agreed with the Department’s conclusions and sought and secured Government approval for the cost of remediating all the affected sites in Silvermines. In the course of a visit to Nenagh on 4 August, the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, announced that the Government had agreed to assume responsibility for the rehabilitation programme. The cost of the work is estimated at €10.6 million in total. It is planned to have the project carried out over a four-year period. The Government also agreed that the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and the Attorney General should discuss and agree a means of recourse against Mogul. This consultation is in progress. I am constrained in what I can say in this regard for legal reasons but the Minister will consider any solution that can provide a reasonable result for the State, commensurate with legal possibilities. As agreed by the Government, North Tipperary County Council has assumed responsibility for the planning and implementation of the rehabilitation scheme. It is also responsible for appointing the consultants and contractors for the project, liaising with interested parties and monitoring and supervising the project as the work progresses. The Department will assist and be available for consultation as necessary. In accordance with the Government’s decision, the Minister retains responsibility for funding and overall accountability for the project. The Department and county council have had several productive meetings in recent months and it is expected that this co-operation and liaison will continue at all stages of the rehabilitation programme. The Environmental Protection Agency was also consulted and will continue to have an input and monitoring role as the project progresses. The Department’s adviser, SRK Consulting, has completed its phase four report detailing the final conceptual management and rehabilitationof the Silvermines area plans. This report incorporates changes since SRK’s report of May 2002 to take into account changes to the works, updated information and cost estimate revisions due to inflation. This final report will be used by the county council for consultation with stakeholders and as a basis for seeking tenders for the final design works for each site. It is envisaged that major works will commence towards the end of 2006 after the appointment of consultants and contractors and the securing of the necessary permissions and permits. The committee will appreciate that the permitting of works at Garryard will be particularly complex as they involve the first hazardous waste receptor in the country. The following public consultation processes are now planned: a preliminary public inspection of the SRK phase 4 report detailing the final conceptual remediation and management plans for Silvermines will be available in the county council’s offices in Nenagh and on its website in approximately one week — we expect this to happen by next Monday; an information day will be held in the village hall in Silvermines on, I hope, 17 November; and the report and associated maps will be displayed and officials from the Department and county council will be on hand to clarify and discuss details of the plans with the public. The council expects many of the requests to be for information on issues such as individual access rights and for details on how lands will be affected. The intention is to provide a time and space for individuals to raise issues they may not or would not raise at a public meeting. Such a meeting will be held in the village hall, Silvermines, on the evening of 29 November, at which meeting the Department, its consultants and the county council will present the details of the plans for all the sites, clarify issues and answer questions. A management committee will be set up to monitor expenditure and the general progress of the project. A consultative committee will also be set up consisting of stakeholders, including members of the local community, in particular, and also representatives of the Environmental Protection Agency and the Geological Survey of Ireland. I acknowledge and support the co-operation of all interested parties in bringing this project to the stage where a real and sustainable solution to the problems at Silvermines can be achieved. The Minister has previously acknowledged the patience of the local community, which waited a long time for a solution. I have met members of the local community and have seen the state of the areas in question. I appreciate the community’s patience and drive in pursuit of the necessary remedial works, which will remove the unacceptable risks of old mining operations and restore the area to a satisfactory environmental state while going some way towards meeting community requests to ensure the mining heritage is respected. Finally, I can assure the committee that the Department will do all in its power, within the terms of the Government’s decision and working closely with all stakeholders, to ensure that an acceptable solution to the Silvermines problem is put in place, one that enhances the quality of the lives of the people directly affected — the local community — and restores the beauty of the Silvermines landscape and countryside. Chairman: I notice a public meeting was held on this matter and I ask Mr. Guilfoyle to keep all public representatives informed as well. From councillors to Members of the Oireachtas, they have played a major role in progressing this particular solution with the Department Mr. Guilfoyle: I will certainly do that. Senator O’Meara: I am pleased to have the opportunity to acknowledge the work that has been done and the significant results achieved as regards this particular issue. It is a number of years since I, as a public representative, became involved at the request of the local community in the campaign to have the Silvermines sites rehabilitated and, in particular, to have the serious issue of pollution dealt with. While the tailings pond has been the most visible public manifestation of that problem, there are a number of other mine sites, as we know, which have been identified as being more toxic and more dangerous to the community than the tailings pond itself. One should not underestimate the significance of the announcement made on 4 August. It comes, following a long period of consultation and a significant amount of hard work on the part of a number of people. There was the local community in its demand for a pristine environment in which to live. Then there was the work of officials of the Department. I am pleased that five officials are here today and that I have the opportunity, on behalf of the community, to acknowledge the work done by all of the officials. The level of commitment, dedication and single-minded determination to ensure this issue was dealt with was very much in evidence. They visited the area, walked sites, spoke to members of the community and at all times gave assurances that its views would be taken on board. While many people did not believe this would happen, ultimately it did. The members of the committee who, at my request, travelled to Silvermines, two years ago, and visited the site under not very amenable weather conditions—— Chairman: It was a junket. Is there anybody here from the press? Senator O’Meara: It was a junket, indeed, to a polluted site. That was well noted locally and very much appreciated. The local authority, too, had a significant contribution as had the local representatives and the Minister. When the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dempsey, saw what needed to be done, clearly, on the advice of his officials, he acted. The framework drawn up to manage the rehabilitation has the confidence of the community and will work. The local authority is very comfortable with it. Senior personnel within the local authority, from the manager down, are determined that the resources which have been made available from the Department will be properly used towards achieving the desired result, namely, the rehabilitation of the mine sites. I am glad Mr. Guilfoyle indicated the Department will continue to seek recourse from Mogul in Ireland. That is in line with the view of the local community. While at the moment the taxpayer is picking up the tab for the rehabilitation of the sites, ultimately it is the responsibility of Mogul to clean up the sites for which it is responsible. Clearly, in cases where there is no longer an entity, that is a different matter. I have argued the case more than once in the Seanad that the community could not wait until such time as Mogul was in a position to do it. A judgment call clearly had to be made that the Department, on behalf of the community and the country, had to move on this particular issue. As we know, that does not always happen but in this case it did. I look forward to a sustainable solution being put into place. Mr. Guilfoyle has not set them out, but there are many hurdles along the way. The Chairman said that he wants to close this particular part of the committee’s work, but I am not sure that will be the case. If there is a hurdle along the way in which this committee has a role in overcoming, I will bring it back to the committee. I do not accept that this is the end of the road. A very significant decision has been made to allow a new phase of work to continue. However, there are hurdles along the way which are not insurmountable. At the moment, we can record a job well done. I am concerned that three months after the decision on 4 August, we are only now looking at making a public presentation to the community. I am glad to see that specific dates have been set for the delivery of information to the community in a public meeting. The local authority is well placed to have that ongoing communication and consultation with the community. In my conversations with him, Mr. Guilfoyle always said that the views of the community would be taken on board and that nothing would happen without the agreement of the community. I am glad to acknowledge that such was the case and I congratulate everyone involved. Chairman: I express our appreciation to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, for resolving this issue and taking the policy decision and to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern and the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, for the work they did, as well as any other public representative involved, such as Senator O’Meara, Deputy Hoctor, Deputy Michael Smith and other Oireachtas Members in Tipperary, along with local county councillors who did great work on this. I hope that there might be a role in the monitoring committee for some of the public representatives so that we are kept informed on what is happening. I thank Mr. Guilfoyle, Mr. Daly and other officials in the Department for their presentation today. Members of this committee have long had an interest in this matter, which included visiting Silvermines on that very cold, snowy January day. The press would no doubt classify it as a junket. I thank Mr. Guilfoyle and the Department for all the work that has been done to bring this matter to the stage where the valid concerns of the local residents are being addressed. This issue is an example of how a joint committee of the Dáil, the Department, the officials, local public representatives and the local community can interact to bring issues of concern to a conclusion. We wish the local residents every success in the future. I understand that Mr. Guilfoyle is leaving the Department soon and is heading to greener pastures. Is that correct? Mr. Guilfoyle: I hope it will be greener. I am leaving in late January or early February. Chairman: It has been a pleasure working with Mr. Guilfoyle. We have had an excellent relationship with him as assistant secretary, as well as with the officials under him in his section. I thank him for his kindness and his help to us in the three years in which I have been Chairman of this committee. Mr. Guilfoyle: I thank the Chairman. On my own behalf, I thank the committee for its unfailing courtesy and respect over the period in which I have been involved in making presentations and appearing before it. We in the Department appreciate the kind comments that have been made on the work of our team. I am just part of the team and wish to acknowledge publicly everything that has been done by the four people sitting to my left, who have done great work. I thank the Chair for providing me with the opportunity to say that. Deputy Durkan: I wish to be associated with the congratulations and expressions of good wishes to all concerned who have helped to bring about a resolution to a long-standing issue. It augurs well for co-operation between the local and national authorities when all sides can come together to pursue a general objective that will enhance the local area and is mutually rewarding. I congratulate the Minister, the Chair, the local public representatives and the officials who were involved from the Department and the local authority. Telecommunications Services in County Kerry: Presentation. Chairman: I welcome the representatives of the Black Valley Community Group, Mr. Noel Kissane, Ms Debbie O’Sullivan and Ms Kitty O’Connor. There was a joint proposal by Deputies Broughan and Durkan to invite this group before the committee and to find a suitable slot for them to appear before it. Before I ask Mr. Kissane to begin his presentation, I advise everyone that we will receive a short presentation, which will be followed by a question and answer session. All mobile telephones should be switched off. Deputy Moynihan-Cronin: Certainly, the witnesses will not receive any calls from their homes. Chairman: I wish to draw everyone’s attention to the fact that while members of this committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Further, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask Mr. Kissane to introduce his delegation and to begin his presentation. Mr. Noel Kissane: My name is Noel Kissane and I am accompanied by my neighbours. On my immediate left is Debbie O’Sullivan and next to her is Kitty O’Connor. I am delighted the joint committee has given us the opportunity to appear before it to make a presentation on behalf of the people of the Black Valley, County Kerry, concerning the disastrous telephone service which we receive from Eircom. First, I wish to outline the location of the Black Valley to the members. We live in a remote but beautiful area of County Kerry known as the Black Valley, situated near the Gap of Dunloe at the foot of the McGillicuddy Reeks and Carrauntuohill, Ireland’s highest mountain, and bordering the Lakes of Killarney. We are located approximately 20 miles from the town of Killarney. Approximately 100 people live in 46 houses in the Black Valley and more new houses are being built. The valley has its own church and national school, which 32 students attend. We first received a telephone service in April 1990, known as the Rurtel system. This system was among the first to be installed in Ireland in respect of remote areas. It uses a radio link telephone and works by bouncing a signal from Killarney to an area known as Lady’s View, from there to the Black Valley repeater station and then on to individual households. Each house must be in line of sight of the repeater station. A pole with an antenna and control box is erected near each house and from this a cable carries the service into the house, where it connects in the same way as any ordinary telephone service. After this system was installed in 1990, it worked reasonably well for some time but the service has been deteriorating for many years. Eircom has carried out very little maintenance. The Rurtel system is now outdated and worn out and people are often without any type of telephone service. In the event of a power failure in the area, there is a battery backup to keep the system going but batteries in several locations have not been changed. When there is a power failure, the entire system stops and people are left without any telephone service. I confirm that this is the situation today. When I left home at 6.30 a.m., I had a telephone service. Then, the lights went out and the service returned at 12.30 p.m. The telephone service has become so bad in recent years that it can be impossible to make a call and there are many occasions when we are without any service. If one succeeds in making a connection, one must conduct the call with a disturbance on the line. After a time, the call will disconnect and one must dial again. When, on other occasions, people call residents in the Black Valley, the caller will hear a ringing tone but the resident’s telephone will not ring. It can be almost impossible to send or receive a basic fax message and the possibility of receiving Internet access is non-existent for the majority. This Rurtel system is not suitable for Internet access. Students in the national school have received State funding through the schools broadband access programme but do not have Internet access because the telephone service is unsuitable. Those students are deprived of a basic right to receive Internet access, something the majority of students now take for granted in their schools. Why are students in the Black Valley denied Internet access even though an IT grant is available to their school? The reality of the Black Valley’s situation came into acute focus earlier this year when an elderly man living there sought medical assistance from a doctor by telephone. As is prone to happen, the telephone went dead and the doctor could not make further contact with the patient by telephone. It was possible for the doctor to get a ringing tone but there was no answer. To be on the safe side, the doctor set off for the Black Valley from Killarney and spent hours trying to locate the patient’s home but was unable to do so and got lost. It was the next morning when the doctor finally arrived at the patient’s house. The mobile telephone service in the valley is completely insufficient, which meant that the doctor could not make contact with the patient during the night. The people of the Black Valley have continually brought the matter of their disastrous telephone service to the attention of Eircom but nothing has been done. I have in my possession the many letters I have written to Eircom — the first of which I sent in 1999 — on the issue. The answer I received was that Eircom was looking into the matter, which is still the case today. We were recently informed by Eircom that the cost of a fixed line service to the Black Valley would be approximately €650,000. It will not spend this money because the service is not viable and is not seen to be a worthwhile investment. We are a small community trying to stand up to large private companies, such as Eircom, that are only interested in profit and not providing a service where it is badly needed. The amount of money ultimately required to address our problems is not significant. In 1990 Eircom, formerly Telecom Éireann, had the resources and technology to provide us with a telephone service. We find it hard to believe that almost 16 years later, with technology having developed so much more, it cannot solve this problem, or should I state it will not even try to do so? The residents and students of the Black Valley seek a decent telephone service with internet access, similar to what the majority in the country now take for granted. In the telecommunications age it is inexplicable that a small community, albeit in a remote location, is denied the most basic communications infrastructure. The Black Valley is a tourist area, in which a number of businesses and visitors require such basic services. Emergency services such as the Kerry Mountain Rescue Service also require them as it works in extremely difficult conditions on the McGillicuddy Reeks and Carrauntuohill searching for injured and missing persons. The people of the Black Valley are also denied an adequate mobile phone service. I note the main mobile phone operators are trying to solve this problem, subject to the granting of planning permission. I am sorry to state that today Kerry County Council refused planning permission to bring a mobile phone service to the Black Valley. I checked the website at Dublin Airport to find the application had been refused. We have come before the committee as a last resort to ask the Chairman and its members what can they do to help us. Our telephone service does not work properly. It is old and worn, as can be seen from the photographs I took on Saturday afternoon. Why are we denied a basic telephone service in this day and age? It may be difficult for members of the committee to get a clear image of the Black Valley and the reality of our situation. Many must see it to believe it. Accordingly, we invite the Chairman and members of the committee to visit the Black Valley to see the situation at first hand. We thank them for their time and courtesy in hearing our case and appeal to them to help us achieve what we need and deserve. We have fought on this issue for years and do not want our children and their children to have to fight the same battles in the years ahead. We are happy to answer any questions. Chairman: I thank Mr. Kissane for coming before the committee today. Deputy Moynihan-Cronin has a number of questions for the delegation. Deputy Moynihan-Cronin: I thank the Chairman. I welcome Mr. Kissane, Ms O’Sullivan and Ms O’Connor and thank them for travelling from the Black Valley today to outline their difficulties. I have examined the records and found that this issue was first raised in the Houses of the Oireachtas in 1977. At that time money was not as plentiful as it is now, but in the era of the Celtic tiger and at a time when Eircom makes such profits, it is hard to believe one can hear such a story as we have heard today. I ask members of the committee and representatives from Eircom to read the paragraph about the elderly man who could not receive medical assistance. Those of us who have telephones take them for granted. The people concerned do not seek a luxury but a basic service. While travelling on the train to Dublin today, a member of the delegation needed to be contacted by their family but could not be reached until 1.30 p.m. because of lack of access to a telephone line. That should not occur in this day and age. The pupils in the Black Valley are probably the only ones in the country who cannot avail of Internet access, despite the fact that they have received a grant from the Department of Education and Science to do so. They will be at a distinct disadvantage when they go to secondary school either in Kenmare or in Killarney. Pupils coming from other schools will be way ahead of them as far as this technology is concerned. The other issue which must be addressed is the refusal of an application by Vodafone despite a successful preplanning meeting with the planning officials, but this is an issue for another day. I thank the Chairman for facilitating the delegation. Apart from Deputy Broughan, the other members of this committee live outside Dublin and we are aware of the difficulties. Those living outside Dublin city know that there is less priority given to the country, particularly a very rural area such as the Black Valley. However, it is a vibrant community of 100 people, with its own church and school, a fantastic community council and community groups. They are at the end of their tether and do not know where to turn. There is cross-party support for this proposal and it is down to money. The cost is €650,000 which will not break anybody. I ask the Chairman to accept the invitation to visit the community regardless of whether the media will call it a junket. It would be well worth the members of this committee and the representatives of Eircom meeting the community and giving an honest answer to these people as to the reason they cannot be given a basic service. I do not wish to take up the time of the other members but I appeal to all around this table today to come together in order that, like the issue of the tailing ponds in Silvermines, a successful outcome can be achieved. We need to stand up on behalf of small rural communities so that they do not die out. I thank the members of the delegation, Noel Kissane, Debbie O’Sullivan and Kitty O’Connor, for travelling up. I thank the Chairman and I know we will have his support. Chairman: Before calling Senator Coghlan I wish to advise the committee that a representative from Eircom will make a presentation. |