Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m. Paidir.
Prayer.  Business of Seanad.
An Cathaoirleach:   I have notice from Senator Buttimer that, on the motion for the Adjournment of the House today, he proposes to raise the following matter: The need for the Minister for Health and Children to confirm that due to the imminent retirement of the consultant surgeon at Bantry General Hospital, the surgery unit and the medical unit at the hospital will not be adversely affected and that the retiring consultant will be replaced as a matter of urgency.
I have also received notice from Senator Keaveney of the following matter: The need for the Minister for Education and Science to outline the measures that have taken place to implement recommendation 1283 on history and the learning of history in Europe.
I have also received notice from Senator Ross of the following matter: The need for the Minister for Education and Science to recognise the necessity of core funding for the continuance of deaf studies in Trinity College Dublin.
I have also received notice from Senator Doherty of the following matter: The need for the Minister for Social and Family Affairs to address the backlog in applications from people who have recently lost their jobs, for social welfare supports in County Donegal, leaving many of them without social welfare supports for periods up to and over two months.
I regard the matters raised by the Senators as suitable for discussion on the Adjournment. I have selected the matters raised by Senators O’Donovan, Keaveney and Ross, and they will be taken at the conclusion of business. Senator Doherty may give notice on another day of the matter he wishes to raise. Order of Business. Senator Donie Cassidy: The Order of Business is No. 1, Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2008 — Committee Stage; and No. 26, motion 26 re Irish tourism. It is proposed that No. 1 will be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and will adjourn not later than 5 p.m., if not previously concluded. There will be a sos from 1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m. No. 26, motion 26, will be taken at 5 p.m., to conclude not later than 7 p.m. Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I have made the point before that I do not believe the Government protects the vulnerable as it should do. I raised this point in regard to the way the budget cuts especially affected the young and the elderly. I am disturbed that the risk of female genital mutilation is not considered an adequate reason by Irish courts for a family to be allowed to remain in this country. The barbaric idea that two young girls could be subjected to this awful practice and that Ireland would not intervene is not reflecting the will of the vast majority of people in this country, who would want to see Pamela Izevbekhai being allowed to stay in this country with her two children, particularly in view of the fact her eldest daughter has already died as a result of this practice. One can understand her huge anxiety about returning to the country where this happened. Were it not for the intervention of the European Court of Human Rights, she would have been deported yesterday. I ask the Leader to convey to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform our concern about this case. I hope, irrespective of what the European Court of Human Rights decides, that the Government will take a humanitarian approach to this case given the amount of distress the family have been through already. In terms of protecting the vulnerable, I want to raise an issue in regard to an art collection in the Irish Museum of Modern Art, the “Outsider Art” collection, which has been on loan to this country for ten years. It was put together by people who have had mental health difficulties and is a particular form of art. While the country has had the collection for ten years, arbitrarily the owners have now been asked to remove it from IMMA. I ask the Leader to follow this up and find why it is happening. Again, it involves a vulnerable group but it also involves a particular, well recognised form of art. We are lucky to have the collection in this country but a decision has been made arbitrarily to remove it from IMMA. The key concern on our minds this morning is the situation regarding the banks. In the Irish Independent, for example, David McWilliams, among many others, states: “Act now, minister, or we will all live to regret it.” Deputy Richard Bruton writes an article today stating we should be clear that at this point the banks are a tool, no more, no less. In the long term, the banking sector needs to be radically reformed, as does the public sector. Senators on this side of the House as well as on the Government side asked yesterday where is the plan from Government. We hear about late night meetings but we desperately need to hear from the Minister for Finance in this House about his plans. Equally, we need answers to questions regarding what measures he proposes to safeguard the public interest if and when such recapitalisation takes place. I am especially concerned at the reliance being placed on putting directors into the banks because they will be in a position where there is a clear conflict of interest. Everybody would want to be reassured that if there is to be recapitalisation, the money will be used for the right reasons and that small businesses, which are the lifeblood of this economy, will get the income and support they need. They are the businesses that will give us hope in a year or two when, we hope, the economy recovers. However, if they do not get the right support now, they will not recover or be able to give the kind of hope that is needed in the country. When will we have a debate on the current economic situation, the banks and the Government’s approach to them at this critical time? Senator Joe O’Toole: We asked the Leader yesterday, last week and the previous week to deliver on his promise to have regular discussions on the economy which were to take place not less often than once a month. We are still waiting for that debate. This should not be taking up time on the Order of Business but issues arise. The Government is addressing a matter that is all over the newspapers and is of concern to everybody in the country but we are not talking about it. This cannot be right. If the Leader cannot get the proper Minister in, he should get some Minister. I do not understand what is going on, nor does anybody else. Specifically, I do not understand why we are recapitalising at this time. I know what we are trying to achieve but nobody has explained to me how recapitalising the banks will send out the right message and prove things will return to operating properly. As we are all aware, the American banks and the UK banks were recapitalised but it does not seem to have made a great difference. If we are simply recapitalising so the banks carry on doing what they did before, I do not see it is an advantage to the Irish taxpayer. However, I am not saying I am right about this question because I do not know the answer. I have been trying to check with small businesses as to how badly they are being treated by the banks. I am coming across situations where people are getting loans and mortgages and where businesses are being allowed to continue. I just do not know the facts in all of this. I know other people are in serious trouble but this is because of bad risks that were taken earlier. What exactly is the clear picture? What are the demands? We know what small businesses need and we know the support to which they are entitled and which they should get. How much are they getting or not getting? Are the banks telling us what is going on at that level? If they will not tell us, let us carry out a survey of people in business to find out what is happening. On another issue, I raise for the nth time a request that the Leader would deliver on the promise for a debate on education. We have a situation where issues of special education are being completely ignored. Newcomer children with language difficulties are not getting the support they need. I want to make one simple fact available to the House. Members on the Government side are being told by their Minister about reducing class sizes by one. That does not happen. Members should take this image away with them. A school with 60 pupils and three teachers has a class ratio of 20:1 per class. If one teacher and one pupil are taken away, there are 59 pupils for two teachers. The ratio moves from 20:1 to 30:1, which is why people are upset. It is unfair that Members on the Government side are told at their parliamentary party meetings that there is simply a change of one because it never happens that way. There is always a significant impact, particularly on small schools. This will be the death of schools in rural Ireland. Senator Dominic Hannigan: Senators referred to the difficulties faced by small businesses at present. In this climate it is vital we ensure our small businesses are not being ripped off. I want to give two examples where I believe excessive profiteering is taking place by suppliers to small business. The first is in regard to company travel. Businesses must use airlines to go abroad to do business. We know the additional surcharge will not help but I want to draw the Leader’s attention to the Visa charges applied by airlines. Three of the airlines based in Ireland charge a fee of €10 per user for every time the person uses a Visa card. However, British Midland only charges €6 per person so it is clear the others do not have to charge €10. It is excessive profiteering by some airlines and we need action. The second example is in regard to mobile phone charges. We have spoken before in the House in regard to small businesses paying 66% higher mobile phone charges than the average for the rest of Europe. We will remember that a few months ago there was a storm about the fees being charged for the Apple iPod. Members may be aware the new BlackBerry is about to come out. In Newry and the Netherlands it will be free, but in Navan it will be €110 and the contract prices will be higher again. It is clearly another example where action is needed. I ask the Leader to try to get the communications regulator and the aviation regulator to come to the House to explain exactly what they will do about this issue. Senator Joe O’Toole: Hear, hear. Senator Dominic Hannigan: I also want to draw attention to the latest annual report of An Bord Pleanála. As a result of the downturn in the economy, there are now 15% fewer cases going to An Bord Pleanála but staff numbers have increased by 26% and the number of external consultants used has risen by 20. It is clear the board needs to look again at its resource requirements. I am not suggesting that redundancies are needed but I do suggest we consider putting placements or secondments from An Bord Pleanála into county halls nationwide. Many county councils are reviewing their town plans and county development plans at present, and they could benefit from the expertise of members of the board. There is now clearly an excess number of staff in An Bord Pleanála and we should consider placing some of them in county halls nationwide. Senator Dan Boyle: The points on the need for a debate on the banking system have been well and regularly made in this House. I am sure the Leader will afford us an opportunity with regard to the Finance Bill but there is a need for a particular debate in addition to that, as many Members have stated. A number of factors have delayed this. One is the production of the PricewaterhouseCoopers report for the Government as to the state of the loan books in many of the financial institutions. Part of the problem with the banks is that the collateral they are claiming on many of their outstanding loans is probably falsified based on wildly exaggerated property values. The Government, and the wider body politic, must have such information before we have a proper debate. It is worth putting on record before we have such a debate that the United States has twice changed its policy on banking. The United Kingdom has capitalised several of its banks, including the Royal Bank of Scotland to the value of Stg£21 billion, but it has not achieved the desired effect of additional lending within the system. Regardless of when and how recapitalisation happens in our banking system, it must be properly directed in that there is additional lending and the reserves of the financial institutions are not held on to. The additional factors must be brought about, including better governance in the financial institutions and the people responsible for bringing about the financial crisis being held to account and questioned. Major questions arise about whether they are the people who should help the financial sector get out of this situation. The wider debate must include all those components. The Government was right in delaying making this decision until the last possible moment because these decisions have been made in other jurisdictions and they have not worked to date. There is no panacea or magic wand. If we are to get out of this situation the debate we have in the wider body politic must ensure that at least there is an indication that the response we take is the right approach. Senator Paul Coghlan: These late night crisis meetings regarding the banking situation are not doing us any good and I suggest there has been too much delay. Everybody has made the case for a banking debate and a debate on the wider economy. We are all concerned about the economy and the future of business within our economy. We need to know whether the Government has in mind a State rescue plan or is it seeking a foreign cash injection. If it is a State rescue plan, how does the Minister intend to proceed regarding the issue referred to by our leader on this side of the House? If people are to be nominated to act in the public interest, how will they get over the conflict of interest regarding company law? Does the Minister have in mind — the sooner we know this the better — amending legislation to get over the difficulties in that regard? As Senator O’Toole pointed out, a recapitalisation may not necessarily help our ailing economy, which is suffering so much, because it may not remove restrictive lending policies. It may simply be used to add to the cash reserves to balance the ratios, but in any event we need to hear from the Leader in response to all the requests we are making on a daily basis. When can we have the debate and, if the Minister for Finance cannot come to the House, we should not have to wait for the Finance Bill. We should be able to have our own debate on these issues forthwith. Senator Mark Daly: I hope tomorrow we will see significant political developments in the North. I seek a debate on Irish unity and welcome the new publication by Dr. Richard Humphreys, Countdown to Unity: Debating Irish Reunification, which was launched by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, yesterday. It sets out practical steps, a road map and a programme on how reunification can be achieved in a peaceful manner. Articles 2 and 3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann refer to the fact that the State’s objective is a peaceful reunification of the country, and Fianna Fáil’s principle has always been a united Ireland. To achieve unity it is incumbent upon us to explain to the Unionist community how a united island would be beneficial to us all. We must be aware that any changes necessary to create this one nation would require sacrifices, but the sacrifices would be insignificant compared to the sacrifices of previous generations. An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking a debate? Senator Mark Daly: I am, but I am also seeking a debate on the fact that at the same time we seek to unite we also divide. The electoral commission has again proposed that Leitrim should remain divided, despite the fact that 14,000 people signed a petition against it. The constituency commission got 327 submissions, of which 241 related to Leitrim alone. Senator John Ellis spoke many times in this House and throughout the country about the difficulties of being the sole Oireachtas Member from Leitrim, while the Oireachtas Members representing the Sligo, north Leitrim and Roscommon-South-Leitrim do an excellent job. As the Cathaoirleach is well aware, we all prefer to be represented by our own county men and at this 11th hour I ask the Leader to seek fair representation for County Leitrim and intervene on behalf of the people. Senator Rónán Mullen: I ask the Leader to note the very good news today about an article in The Lancet outlining how a woman in Spain has become the first person in the world to be given a laboratory engineered organ. This transplant operation was based on her own stem cells and did not require any immuno-suppressant drugs. The good news, contrary to what some speakers said in this House last week, is that so much progress is being made in the area of adult stem cell research and related therapies that we have every reason to hope that the cures we seek can be achieved through ethical means and not through embryo destructive research. It is in that context that I hope to introduce a Bill in the House tomorrow, the Stem Cell Research (Protection of Human Embryos) Bill, which I hope will be taken during Private Members’ time next week. I ask for the support of all sides of the House on that. I note what Senator Daly has just said about a united Ireland. Uniting a people is about more than eliminating the borders, it is about having policies that can unite people and that, in the area of research and medicine, can help us find cures with which we can all live. That is important. I draw the attention of the Leader and the House to the excellent advertisement being run, thanks to Ruhama, on human trafficking which points out to people that to use a trafficked person in prostitution is a criminal offence. We had a debate on that at the time of the Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) Bill. It is incumbent on us to have another debate now in light of the fact that it appears Norway will follow the Swedish example in criminalising the use of a person in prostitution. It is time we had another debate about how we protect people from exploitation in the sex industry. I ask the Leader to make time available for that because the way we treat the most vulnerable people in our society at any stage of life is the true test of our civilisation. Senator John Hanafin: I share the views in support of ethical research. It does us no harm to remind ourselves frequently that there have been no successes with embryonic stem cell research. All the research to date has indicated that the adult stem cells are the ones that are producing successful results. We hear of the new alchemists spending millions of taxpayers’ money throughout the world trying to find some cure using embryonic cells, yet after decades there has been no positive result. I support those Senators who spoke about liquidity problems. We have a capacity to help Irish jobs, and it is vital that we do so, that is, to buy Irish. For the first time in a long time buying Irish has become directly associated with saving jobs in this country. There is a campaign to encourage us to buy local. Both of those campaigns are laudable and should be supported. We should have a debate in the House at the earliest opportunity to encourage people to buy Irish to save Irish jobs this Christmas.  11 o’clockSenator Eugene Regan: I refer to the statements by Declan Ganley, the chairman of Libertas, to the Sub-Committee on Ireland’s Future in the European Union, which are reported in The Irish Times today where he calls for an EU constitution of no more than 25 pages, presumably like the US constitution. I do not know if this man is for real. God bless America and the American constitution, but Europe is not America and it is not a federation as is established in the US constitution. The history and political philosophy on which the European treaties are based and the evolution of the EU in the past 50 years is so distinct from America that there are no lessons on the form of treaty or constitution on which a Europe of 27 member states operates. The European constitution and treaties accommodate 27 member states and 21 official languages, not to mention minority languages. The accommodation of this diversity requires the type of treaties we have, including the treaty of Lisbon. To tear up, as he suggests, 50 years of work on treaty building in Europe is off the wall. I do not know if this man is for real. The political structure in Europe is unique and is a model for the rest of the world. When Mr. Ganley, also at the committee, talked about the political elite, he referred to the Heads of Government of 27 member states, all of whom who were democratically elected, unlike Mr. Ganley’s elite of right-wing eurosceptics. This House should bear this in mind. I ask the Leader if he would like to comment on what Mr. Ganley said about the Lisbon treaty. Senator Ivor Callely: I support my colleague, Senator Hanafin, on the issues he raised, along with other speakers, about stem cell research and finance. While there has been a great impetus over the past 24 to 48 hours to try to resolve the capital market situation and falling share prices, especially of the financial institutions, I am not sure what any injection of capital from Government will do about the extraordinary times in which we live and the recession. Despite any cash injection, in whatever format or mechanism, we will still be in a very dark situation as we approach 2009 and throughout 2009. I am deeply concerned about the impact the lack of finance available to business and households will have and what is likely to happen over the next few months. If there is a cash injection by Government over the next short period, the Leader must ensure he is informed and works with the Minister and others in the Department of Finance who speak to the banking institutions or the Financial Regulator. This is very sensitive. There must be some associated mechanism to ensure cash is made available to those who require it to prevent foreclosures on homes and businesses closing with a loss of employment. Whatever we do to address the capital market difficulties, there must be some leverage to ensure we get the maximum benefit required as we approach the very difficult months ahead. Perhaps the Leader will pursue my suggestion of a number of weeks ago about the importance of what Senator Hanafin said about buying Irish products and services. I ask the Leader to enter discussions with other leaders in this House to see how we can do it individually, collectively and in our political groupings. I will not ask the Leader to respond to that part of my question today but I ask him some day next week to brief me on the progress he has made with the other political groupings in this House on that matter. Senator David Norris: I strongly support Senator Fitzgerald’s comments on the case of Ms Pamela Izevbekhai. Ireland has received a well-deserved slap in the face from the European Court of Human Rights on this matter. I have been a Member of this House as we have discussed immigration legislation over a long number of years. I do not believe this kind of circumstance was envisaged by any Member of the House. I see the Leader nodding. Decent people on the Government side tabled amendments to try to ensure this kind of thing would not happen. It is not the intention of the Oireachtas that this woman be placed in such a circumstance. One of her daughters has already died through a massive haemorrhage as a result of this barbarous procedure. We intended that people in those circumstances should be protected. I do not intend, and would not be allowed, to criticise the judge. He was well within his remit. It was a timid judgement and perhaps the judges are telling us something — that they have rebuked us so often in the past for not securing people’s human rights, they have given up. The judge said the balance of convenience favoured enforcement. That is an astonishing statement. The “balance of convenience” against the life of a child. I am sure he is right that the legal points can be discussed in the absence of the mother. He said that only “exceptional circumstances” would justify his intervening and these had not been provided. He said to do otherwise would “usurp” the function assigned to the asylum system. That is a valid and important point. Those entrusted with the asylum system have proved themselves unfit. When will the Immigration and Residence Bill come to the House? That is a very dangerous, bad and defectively drafted Bill that will copper-fasten exactly this kind of thing and it must be amended in this House. I submitted an Adjournment debate matter which was not in time for today but which I hope will be for tomorrow. It will concern Senator Callely, who very ably chaired a meeting of the Sub-committee on Human Rights of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. All the Members present were from Seanad Éireann and this shows how actively we participate. Senator Daly was there, and spoke very movingly. This concerns the case of Roma gypsies in Kosovo, whom the United Nations has placed on a site seriously contaminated with lead. Every child born there has degrees of lead poisoning that are off the medical scale. Every one of them is born, and will be born, with irreversible brain damage. This is nothing other than a death camp. Will the Leader draw this to the attention of the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Micheál Martin, and ask him to contact the UN? Appallingly, this is done by the UN and a group of Christian churches which acted in good will but in ignorance of the situation. It simply must be stopped. Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú: I compliment Senator Mullen on his intention to bring forward a Private Members’ Bill on stem cell research. It is timely because there is a vacuum in the debate. It is not enough to have sound bites on the Order of Business week in, week out. The debate has become very disjointed and I look forward to hearing what Senator Mullen has to say and participating in the discussion. There was radical, revolutionary news on the radio this morning about stem cell research and its results in Spain. This seems to have been forgotten. This was adult stem cell research and the recipient received a new windpipe. Within ten days of that, the recipient was out at a dance in a nightclub and rang the surgeon to say everything was going well. This is an amazing breakthrough. In fairness to RTE, it presented it in that manner as well. There is a possibility that the limited debate on embryonic stem cell research is distracting from the opportunities that exist for adult stem cell research. If Senator Mullen’s Bill gives us an opportunity to make a more detailed contribution to the debate, it will have served its purpose. I compliment him on taking that initiative. Senator Ivor Callely: Hear, hear. Senator Nicky McFadden: I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to the House to debate the dreadful gangland murders in Limerick, Dublin and elsewhere. It was indicated yesterday that surveillance legislation may be introduced before the summer of next year. Why has it taken so long for the Minister to take action in respect of thugs and gangland murderers? Why are sentences so short? Why does the maximum sentence not last for more than ten or 12 years? Why is the relevant sentence not 20 years? Why is the Special Criminal Court not being used? Why are these guys allowed to drive around in bulletproof BMWs? Why are they allowed to live in local authority houses? Why are their assets not seized? Why have they been allowed to fly in the face of the law? It seems to me that the Minister has been asleep. Resources have not been provided to the Garda Síochána. It beggars belief that it has taken so long for the Minister to put in place the necessary legislation. I welcome the decision to put in place more checkpoints, to arrest these guys and to seize their assets. I applaud the people of Limerick and the Munster rugby team for providing such a wonderful spectacle last night. It was a complete contrast to what has been going on in some of the local authority housing estates in that city. It was a demonstration of the wonderful spirit that exists in Limerick. I applaud everyone concerned. Senator Joe O’Reilly: I have visited a couple of secondary schools in the past few days. I was disturbed to note that morale among the teaching profession is quite low. Teachers are concerned about the implications of the cuts which will affect secondary schools. I am aware of a number of schools that have sent notices to parents indicating they intend to withdraw extra-curricular activities like football, debating and games. It is a matter of extraordinary seriousness. It is well accepted that such activities are as essential, if not more so, to the education of young people as anything they may do academically. I was interested to discover that teachers are worried about missing out on extra-curricular interaction with youngsters. I ask the Leader to convey that to the Minister for Education and Science. If teachers get out of the habit of being involved in extra-curricular activity, they may not readily return to such activity. They may develop alternative lifestyles in future times. This is a matter of extraordinary seriousness because the activities to which I refer can act as a bridge between teachers and students. They allow young students to escape their tension and stress. They give young people an opportunity to develop in a different way. People who do not perform academically often thrive outside the classroom. Many people who excel academically also show excellence in sport. It is a shame that such opportunities may be lost. It is wrong. I appeal to the Leader to contact the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O’Keeffe, about this minor issue. He should make the point that the removal of extra-curricular activities such as football and other games would, in effect, undo years of progress in secondary education. I agree with Senator O’Toole’s proposal that we should have a general debate on education, with a particular focus on this issue. I support Senator Callely’s comments on the banks. I agree with him that the yardstick by which any arrangements with the banks should be measured should be the extent to which we extract a quid pro quo whereby interest rates are immediately passed on to ordinary consumers, small businesses are supported and a proactive lending policy is put in place throughout the country. The needs of shareholders should not take pre-eminence again. Senator Ivor Callely: Hear, hear. |