[Senator Feargal Quinn   ]
Ireland is overspending its income, and having to borrow at a rate of €17 million an hour. This public deficit crisis is more serious than the €30 billion worst case scenario for Nama; the deficit will run up €30 billion of new debt in 18 months and continue to add debt thereafter.
As my former colleague, Mr. Vincent O’Doherty, wrote in the article in question: In many respects, we are living an Alice-in-Wonderland existence. We are like a household that takes out an additional mortgage every week from an indulgent lender to meet its excess spending. We continue to live in an artificial comfort zone in which we can ignore reality.
The situation is not understood by the nation as a whole. The Government has to spell out what the problem is and how serious it is. Mr. O’Doherty continues: The situation in which we find ourselves is extremely serious, but it is not complicated. Volumes may be written about the complex story of how we got where we are [I will not talk about that] but the solution to how we get out of it is, in principle, quite simple. The state must cut its expenses and raise its income through taxes to eliminate €20 billion of unsustainable over-spending. A country living so far beyond its means cannot expect renewed growth in the economy and the new investments essential to a fresh start, until it puts its own house in order.
The most recent Department of Finance monthly bulletin sets out the Government’s planned reduction in spending over the next five years and estimates, based on IMF calculations, that debt will amount to 80% of gross domestic product by the end of 2013 if we continue what we are doing. Given that the Government proposes to spread the corrective measures over a further four years, the debt is even higher than necessary. The figure of 80% of GDP, or more if the banks need further funding, is comparable to the depressed conditions of the late 1980s when debt reached 100% of GDP. I do not think individual citizens quite understand all these millions and billions but an 80% proportion of debt suggests that 20% of tax revenue will be expended on interest payments rather than health, education or social welfare. Most of this money will go abroad because we are largely supported by foreign lenders. This is effectively a permanent reduction in the nation’s income which we will all experience through increased taxes and reduced living standards. People will say it is not fair but I recall the times when, as an employer, I had to tell a store it had problems. It was not fair but that is the way we were. I have had to decide to impose cuts on my businesses to survive. I was usually able to convince people because they saw the figures. We have to explain the situation to our public. In 1982 I had to close a shop because it could not survive. That hurtful experience is etched in my memory. We have to return to the standard of living we enjoyed in 2002. If we are willing to accept the social welfare and standards of living we had seven years ago, we will be able to get on top of this crisis. Will Ireland’s populist policies continue with decisions delayed and watered down under pressure from interest groups until the slow progress, the surge in debt and interest and the waning of investor confidence bring in the IMF? I remind Senators of the story of Churchill during the Second World War. He is not someone who is regarded as a great hero in Ireland but he spoke about blood, sweat and toil. We have to take hard decisions now because we are responsible to the next generation. Let us act sooner rather than later and convince the public it is the correct thing to do. Senator John Hanafin: There are four cornerstones to the Government’s strategy for recovery, the first of which is closing the gap in our public finances. Our deficit, which currently stands at €20 billion, is being met through borrowing. Prior to the downturn, we enjoyed significant surpluses of €22 billion during the years 2005 to 2007. It makes sense for the Government to ease cuts and taxes into the economy in recognition that the world economy will pick up and that, for our size, we are a major trading and exporting country. Even this year, in what might be called the eye of the storm, exports have increased on last year’s figures. Further to what previous speakers have said about Ireland as a flexible economy, we are in a good position for the future because we were well placed to meet the current crisis. People predicted a slowdown or a soft landing in property prices but nobody can claim they foresaw that the world economy and the financial system would totter at the precipice last year. The most important reasons for this crisis were the instantaneous availability of credit to people who were not in a position to make repayments and a total lack of regulation in the international sector. These factors nearly brought down the financial system, which in turn would have destroyed economies. Fianna Fáil has no brief for the banking sector; our brief is for the economy. The way to keep the economy vibrant is to ensure a proper banking sector. We have succeeded in this task. We ensured Ireland’s banking sector continued through the eye of the storm by means of a Government guarantee. How much money might have left this State or how many banks might have failed in the absence of this guarantee is unknown. Had one of the major banks failed, we would be facing a depression scenario in which one third of people were unemployed. Sadly, we were not supported by everybody, especially in regard to Anglo Irish Bank. One Opposition spokesperson even said we were bailing out our developer friends. Nothing could have been further from the truth because we hold no brief other than to do what is right for the country. It is not as if all the political wisdom held by Fianna Fáil went out the window and we decided instead to look after the better-off while forgetting about everyone else. That never happened but, unfortunately, such are the claims made against us. One of the main reasons the international banking sector almost collapsed was greed and a “Pirates of the Caribbean” attitude toward finances. The bonus system played a major part in this. Had the managing director of Lehman Brothers received a bonus of $1 billion in 2007 rather than $500 million, I do not doubt we would now be looking at a 1929 style depression. It is incumbent on us to add our voice to the G20 and at the EU and UN to ensure this never happens again. Our other remit is to protect jobs and restore competitiveness. There is no doubt that competitiveness is returning in the private sector by virtue of necessity. We had priced ourselves out of manufacturing and the property bubble did nothing to help. We would have been in a worse situation had that continued but we appear to be regaining our competitiveness. No job is safe if it is not competitive. As people have seen the danger of bank failures and a recession, they are not spending. The only way we will get people to spend is by assuring them we will continue to introduce policies that ensure the stability of the Irish economy. At present, large sums of money are deposited in Ireland banks which would normally be circulating through the economy. In other words, people are saving or paying down debts and this money is not available for the type of ordinary spending which contributes to tax revenue. However, people will start to spend again because they will see the commitment of the Government to putting our economy on a solid footing. The last point I wish to support — there are other points I wish to make for which, unfortunately, I do not have time — is the question of the repossession of houses. One of the most difficult things to hear is that this has happened to a family. It has a special resonance for the Irish people, in particular, when we think about the evictions during the days of the struggle with landlords. In particular, I am aware with 17 years with a building society, First Active, that there must be a change in legislation, not only to protect the home owner but to protect the lender. My suggestion is that the Government would look seriously at allowing the lender, which heretofore had no recourse other than the courts, to take an equity interest in the property if the money has not been paid back willfully by the borrower, in other words, that we would allow the bank or building society to take an equity interest on an ongoing basis and any income surplus to requirements by the person who is not willfully paying could be sequestered and garnered from his or her income. In that way we would ensure there would not be repossessions, which are so unnecessary, in the marketplace. Senator Dominic Hannigan: I wish to share time with Senator Mullen. An Cathaoirleach: Equally. Senator Dominic Hannigan: Seven minutes and five minutes, respectively. I welcome the Minister. It is a long time since we were last here and as the motion is wide-ranging, I will limit my comments to the general economy. I do not intend to speak on banking policy other than to state that my party does not think NAMA is the most efficient way of sorting out the current crisis. I also do not intend to speak about the Lisbon treaty referendum other than to state that a “Yes” vote would send a clear message to international investors that Ireland is open for business and is at the heart of Europe, and as a result, it will be a positive development if we vote for the Lisbon treaty. I want to make general comments about economic policy and Ireland’s current state. The squandering of the boom by the current Fianna Fáil Government has led to a significant loss of confidence in its ability to manage effectively its way out of the current crisis. I refer to instances such as the PPARS fiasco, the amount of money spent on voting machines and general wastage. We heard only yesterday that the Minister is still spending €120,000 on the security of a field in north county Dublin. Thornton Hall, which no longer will be a prison, is just a field. We really need to concentrate on tackling waste. The people have little confidence in the ability of their Government to tackle the current economic crisis and to work back from the brink. There has been little economic analysis in the Government’s approach so far. It appears it is just an approach of cut, cut, cut, and of slash and burn, but this is not always the best option. We all are aware the country’s finances are teetering on the brink and extremely precarious. Where there is wastage we need to cut it, where there are excess levels of expenditure we need to cut them and where there are inefficiencies we need to do likewise. Earlier Senator Twomey mentioned inefficiencies in the health services. We heard today that Irish general practitioners are getting five times the rate of payment for the flu vaccine that the Labour Government in the UK is giving its general practitioners. We need to tackle inefficiencies and waste in all areas of public expenditure. When we are doing this, however, we need to ensure we do not blame the poor for the greed of the rich, that we do not price people out of the education system, that we do not restrict medical care for those who cannot afford private health care and that we do not cut off our nose to spite our face. We need to invest in areas that offer a clear return on investment — schools, green energy schemes, projects such as public infrastructure — and we need to invest in areas where we have a unique selling point. I will highlight two potential areas where Ireland has performed well historically, namely, in attracting people to our shores both in tourism and in new industry. However, we need to have the necessary infrastructure to attract tourists. I was appalled that over the summer the Government cut back in areas of tourism investment. In my area of Meath, the Kells heritage centre is under threat. What kind of a message is that to potential tourists when the Government is closing heritage centres because of a lack of funding? We need to ensure that in areas of tourism we retain sufficient funds to operate the system. I would also ask the Government to look again at the airline tax which is discouraging people from coming to the country. Other countries, most recently the Dutch Government, have reviewed their attitude toward the airline tax and recognised that it is better to remove it. The other area where historically we have been very good is in attracting jobs to the country. Some have asked whether our wages are competitive. I ask whether Government regulation in the area of jobs is competitive with that of other countries. For instance, do we offer sufficient research and development credits to companies which set up here? Should we review our capital gains tax exemptions and see how they compare to those of other countries? Do requirements such as withholding tax provisions and frequency of VAT payments make it more difficult for businesses to operate in this country? We need to review issues such as these to ensure Ireland is an attractive and easy place from which to operate a business. There has been much talk about the issue of public debt. Lord Thomas Macaulay, the 19th century British historian, once stated: At every stage in the growth of the debt it has been seriously asserted by wise men that bankruptcy and ruin were at hand. Yet still the debt went on growing, and still bankruptcy and ruin were as remote as ever.
He was speaking of public debt in the UK in the 19th century but he could have been speaking about the public debt in Ireland today. We need to take a step back when it comes to the issue of the public debt ratio. I am sure no country, perhaps apart from China, is running a government surplus at present. We are running a debt of less than 50% of GDP. This will rise to approximately 70% by the end of the year, according to experts. At worst, NAMA will probably raise that to 130% or 140% of GDP, and it will probably rise again the following year and the year after that. Let us put that in context. The IMF stated in June that the debt of Japan, for example, is set to rise from its current level of 220% of GDP. In Italy, the ratio is currently well over 100%, and it is due to rise further. By 2014, the IMF stated, the debt of all the advanced G20 countries will be over 100% of GDP. Therefore, we need to put the matter in perspective. Senator Quinn worries about the IMF coming to Ireland’s door; its officials might be busier in Rome or Tokyo before they make it to Dublin. We need to consider carefully the issue of Government debt. The debt of the US is currently at 100% of GDP and some eminent commentators, such as Robert Reich who won the Václav Havel Prize for Economics and was a United States Secretary of State for Labor under former US President Bill Clinton, pointed out that although the debt is high in the US, it is not as high as it reached in 1945, but yet ten short years later that debt was virtually wiped out by growth in the economy, not because of government cuts. That is what the UK and the US have always done. They have grown the economy as opposed to cutting expenditure. We need to learn that lesson. Now is the time to set the seeds for economic growth. We can do that by investing in the green area through creating new jobs in wind or wave power. We need to invest in proper schools for our children to study in, update our public transport network and road networks and tackle the appalling crisis in the water systems. There is a herd mentality on this in Government that cuts are the only way out. This is largely unquestioned by the media. We need to be extremely clear that it is not merely a matter of cuts across the board. We need to be looking at better efficiency and cutting waste, but at the same time we must ensure we invest in key areas which can generate jobs and get us out of this economic mess. Senator Rónán Mullen: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir Hannigan as ucht a chuid ama a roinnt liom. Cé nár chóir dúinn beag is fiú a dhéanamh dos na dúshláin eacnamaíochta atá roimh na tíre ag an am seo, tá sé tábhachtach go dtuigfimid gur éirigh le tíortha eile déileáil leis an fhadhb seo nuair a theip ar mbainc eile. Bhí siad níos fearr ina dhiaidh sin. Bá chóir go mbreathnódh lucht déanta polásaí na tíre seo ar an méid a rinne muintir na Fionlainne, nuair a bhí córais eacnamaíochta agus airgeadais na tíre sin briste, chun na córais a chur ar ais le chéile arís. Finland experienced an exceptionally deep recession in the first half of the 1990s. Within four years output was reduced by more than 10% and the unemployment rate quadrupled to almost 17%. The collapse of trade with the former Soviet Union in 1991 and also a sharp downturn in the West combined with a domestic banking crisis led to a collapse in consumption and investment spending. The Finnish Government was forced to take drastic measures to improve its competitiveness and to consolidate public finances at the same time as costly measures were needed to revive the banking sector — we can see the comparison. Public expenditure was cut almost across the board and some taxes were raised. The only exception was that research and development spending was increased rather than cut. In its analysis the OECD pointed out that the counter-cyclical support of Tekes, the Finnish funding agency for technology and innovation, proved very important in reducing the depth and length of the downturn in business research and development which in turn helped to lay the ground for a strong rebound. The Finnish Government decision to complement macroeconomic stabilisation measures with sustained investment in infrastructure, education and incentives for structural change helped to put the Finnish economy on a stronger more knowledge-intensive growth path following the crisis. There is no doubt that the Government here must make steep cuts in public expenditure in the months and years ahead. However, today we must make a plea for education. We must be careful that in cutting into the fat from public expenditure we do not cut deep into those muscles that we will need to rebuild our economy. Education is not a cost for Government it is an investment. The courageous decision by the then Minister for Education, Donogh O’Malley, to provide free secondary school education was one of the fundamental building blocks of the Celtic tiger as we all know. In that regard I was very struck by what the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. Diarmuid Martin, had to say yesterday at the mass to mark the opening of the school year on the subject of education. He acknowledged that our expenditure on education was below that which would be desirable. However, he said: At the same time we have to recognise that education is different. Education is not just part of the problem of our expenditure but education is an irreplaceable part of the answer. It is people with their creativity and talent who are and will be the backbone of economic recovery.
He also said we needed to ensure that young people were not “held hostage to purely economic decisions in such a way as to create long-term damage for them... We owe our children the best even in leaner times.” Those were very wise words. If we are to build this smart economy we will need a cohort of smart and well trained researchers to act as pathfinders for our new economy. We must invest in fourth level education and PhDs if we are to aspire to be centres of research. However, we must continue to invest in primary and secondary education. It is a sobering thought that it costs more to keep a person in jail for a year than it does to educate a person up to graduate level. Caithfimid an infheistíocht sa chóras oideachais a choimeád suas. Ní caiteachas amháin atá i gceist le oideachais. Tá súil agam go dtuigeann an Rialtas go bhfuil infheistíocht in ár dtodhchaí, agus sa chumas atá againn dul i ngleic leis na fadhbanna atá romhainn, i gceist freisin. Senator Dan Boyle: Just as Zhou Enlai said when speaking of the French Revolution, it is a bit too soon to tell about the international crisis and our own particular variant of it. However, there are some hopeful signs. We do not know yet whether the international crisis will be a V-type recession or a W-type recession. We have seen encouraging signs that France and Germany, two of our main trading partners, are coming out of recession. As both are eurozone countries, it gives us some hope and confidence. We have also had a relatively positive report today from the Irish Exporters Association showing that Ireland is one of the few countries in the developed world that has an increasing amount of exports with a 5% increase in the past year alone. Having listened to the previous speaker refer to Finland, it is interesting to note that the decrease in Finland in the last recorded year was 40%. While there are reasons to feel hopeful for the future, we have less control over other factors, which will have a serious impact on the social as well as the economic outlook for the country. Chief among those is unemployment, which is far too high and unfortunately will grow higher until it comes back under control. To restore an economy we need appropriate amounts of hope and confidence. Recession breeds the opposite; it breeds fear and uncertainty. The challenge for the political system and not just for Government is to build on what is good and what we can go forward with and build upon further. This week’s global economic forum touched upon some of those themes. While we often take an industrial approach to the economy, what the country has going for it as a tradable commodity in which we can take a great deal of pride and from which we can get an economic value are issues like our cultural identity and how that translates into the wider world. That could be manifest in how we structure our tourism industry. There are continuing imbalances in our economy. Our export-led growth comes largely from foreign direct investment companies. We lack an indigenous economic sector. We really need to develop that in the future. One of the main gains from the Celtic tiger era was the sense of self-confidence that never existed at any other time in our economic history. If we are to recover we need to tap into that again. We cannot allow it to be dispirited and disappear from the fragile place from which it seems to have come. If we believe in ourselves as a people we can achieve. The Minister of State has referred to other parallel events in his opening statement. Getting the financial engine of the economy is key to that. There are ongoing debates among Government and Opposition parties as to whether the right approach has been taken. As someone who has been involved in the ongoing internal debates on this matter, I believe the Government is taking the right approach. NAMA is still a developing animal. From the original publication of the draft Bill as a consultative document earlier in the summer to the figures the Minister released on an indicative basis to the stock market’s reaction to that in the subsequent rise in the value of bank shares, I believe continuing balancing needs to be done. While NAMA exists to make our financial services viable, it does not exist to profit the owners of the banks and those who work with the banks at the expense of the taxpayer. We need to complete that balancing. I encourage Members in this House from all parties to consider that exercise from that point of view. Even if we were so minded, I do not believe there are models we could put in place now that would achieve that. Living in a deflationary cycle in our economy at this stage brings about the demands over where we stand in terms of public expenditure. This is open to misinterpretation. The Government’s approach puts public expenditure cuts in a secondary place. The main instrument in dealing with our budgetary situation continues to be borrowing, which will amount to €20 billion this year alone. The plan for the period up to 2013 will require additional borrowing each year until we can try to get down to 3% over and above our annual budget to meet the criteria for membership of the euro. That will still be quite difficult. We are borrowing €20 billion now with possibly €16 billion next year and €12 billion the following year. In a sense we are lucky that our debt has become so low as a proportion of GDP. Even after this year the €20 billion we are borrowing and the money we will be putting forward towards NAMA will only put us at the average debt level of all European countries. Having had the lowest debt, we have come up to the average. Even at the end of this year, our nearest neighbour will have a higher level of debt than us. Although we are talking ourselves down, we must remember our economic standing and statistics are still quite favourable in international comparisons. If we use that as a platform, we can overcome our current problems. The challenge for the political system and, I accept, the Government is to make sure that platform can be reached in the quickest possible time, that it is done in the fairest possible way and that the benefits of the economic strength we achieve through improving our economic indicators are shared among all our citizens. There will be plenty of debates and initiatives. However, despite the catcalling and finger-pointing, my party is part of a Government which is trying to achieve this and, despite the circumstances, achieving it to the greatest extent possible. I am confident, given the timeframe we have set ourselves and the policies being pursued, that we can come through. Senator Paudie Coffey: I welcome the Minister of State for this important debate. I listened with interest to the previous contributors. It is essential for the country and the people that we maintain hope and optimism. However, we need to pass on that hope because people are confused, angry and hurt and need direction. That is what they are crying out for. We have just experienced the greatest deterioration in the history of the public finances over a very short period. It would be remiss of those of us in government and opposition not to consider how we have arrived at this point. We must consider the background and context and learn from our mistakes if we are to have any chance of recovery without experiencing further problems. From the mid-1990s the economy was growing well. Export business was up, employment levels were rising and we were still competitive in the manufacturing sector. Agriculture was also doing well. These were sound foundations for strong economic growth. Unfortunately, however, as we entered the early 2000s, Government policy seemed to focus too much on property development. It is obvious that this was the case. There were tax incentives for developers and everything was being forced into the construction sector. The majority of the large rise in employment was in the construction sector. It was welcomed to a large degree, but it was unsustainable. We were building more than 90,000 houses per annum at one stage. Meanwhile, we were beginning to neglect manufacturing, especially with regard to competitiveness. We also neglected agriculture to an extent and can still see how that sector is suffering. I do not like to see the Government in denial and not accepting any responsibility for the current economic mess. I remind it that it was quick to claim credit when the economy was doing well. Now it needs to show responsibility. If it showed such responsibility and honesty to the people at this time, it would gain more credibility and at least we could draw a line under it and move on. Unemployment is rising rapidly. In 2001 it stood at 4%, which was to be commended. However, much of this was due to the strong construction sector. We are now at a figure of 12.5%, which is predicted to increase to 15% or more. There are major challenges. People are hurt and angry and looking for leadership. In particular, the 25 to 40 years generation are seriously exposed to financial pressure. They are the ones who have large mortgages and are in negative equity. They are the ones in the family formation age group; they have young children but are losing their jobs. They make up middle Ireland — the ordinary people on whom we are hoping to rebuild the economy — and are crying out for help. I can name multitudes of companies which are going to the wall, including marquee names such as Waterford Crystal, Bausch and Lomb, Honeywell and Teva Pharmaceuticals, which announced more than 350 job losses only two weeks ago. These are not low-end manufacturing jobs. Teva was one of the industries I hoped would see us through the recession. Highly qualified people working in the pharmaceutical industry are being laid off. There are serious concerns in this area. We must not forget the spin-off industries which serve the areas in which these companies were located. The reason for these closures, we are being told by the people running these companies, is our loss of competitiveness. The costs of energy, labour, overheads and services are too high. That is all stacked up in the recent Forfás report, Costs of Doing Business in Ireland, 2009, which repeats what the business leaders are saying. We need to ask ourselves why this happened. Yes, international factors played a role; so too did the banking crisis. However, the failed policies of the Government were also important. I recall, as do many others, a former Taoiseach saying to those who questioned the economic policies of that Government that they should go and commit suicide. I hate to repeat it, but it is a fact. He was applauded at the ICTU national congress. Now we know the reality: when people were questioning things, they were right. I know hindsight is great, but we should take cognisance of what some people, who are academics or otherwise, are saying. If the Government will not listen to the Opposition, it should listen to the academics. The economy was overheated and we were uncompetitive. The social partnership model brought benefits to Ireland from its inception in 1987 under the Programme for National Recovery. It is now time for new negotiations and a new programme for national recovery. I am trying to be positive when I say we need to be up-front and honest with the people. We need to engage with the trade unions and workers and business and clearly spell out the difficulties and challenges facing us. Let us put everything on the table and try to work our way out of this. The Government needs to show us a plan for recovery and a roadmap out of this economic crisis. We are getting conflicting messages from the Government, which is causing confusion. We have the report of the Commission on Taxation and the an bord snip nua report. One will be proposing ways of raising taxes, while the other will propose cuts. The Taoiseach says one thing and the Tánaiste says the opposite; other Ministers are saying different things. This is not the way to govern a country through an economic crisis. We need to see strong leadership in government. That is what the people expect. I compliment those who were involved in organising the think-tank in Farmleigh last weekend, to which the Diaspora came with new ideas and means of investment. Similar events should be organised at local and regional level with the universities and institutes of technology. Let us get the academics and business leaders, as well as workers, trade unions and community representatives, sitting around the table with State agencies to identify our problems and promote solutions. This may be possible through the county and city development boards, although they are too formal in their structure. They could be developed into a more informal structure to bring good ideas from the grassroots up and involve the various pillars in society. That would be a positive way of engaging with the people again. We need to give the people hope. I was speaking with business people last week and they said they were really struggling but that if they could see hope, they would work that bit harder. That is what we need to give them. Senator Fiona O’Malley: I am glad to have this opportunity to speak on the economy because much has happened over the summer, both good and bad. Some of the signs are a little better. However, I will talk first about NAMA which is a necessary evil in that we needed some mechanism to provide liquidity in the banks. It was a case of having to call a price at a certain time in order to lance a boil, in a sense. Because the key to a sustainable economy is a good banking system, it had to be done. The solution arrived at by the Government is commendable. If the Government misses its projections by 10% up or down on the figures it calculated, and it may have over-valued the assets by 10%, even if that transpired to be the case in five or ten years, it was a risk worth taking by the Government for the nation. What we have had up to now has been utter and total stagnation. The economy cannot sustain that. We had to come to a point where a price was called and we moved on. Hopefully, transactions and business will be conducted again. What is proposed is a necessary evil that had to happen given the circumstances in which we found ourselves. I hope we will have a constructive debate as the legislation goes through the Dáil and comes to this House and that Members recognise that this is the solution we have because the Government is proceeding with it. Irrespective of whether one cares about the economy, what the international markets think of the solutions the Government comes up with is vital for this country. I found it lamentable to listen to the Leader of the Opposition in the Dáil last week deplore the fact that bank shares went up the day following the introduction of the legislation. This is a man who wants to present himself as an alternative Taoiseach and he deplored the fact that bank share prices increased. I found his reaction confused and disgraceful. If banks shares had gone down, there would have been a run on the banks and we can imagine what would have happened. Is that what would have made him happy? People need to be careful. Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: The Government was not careful. An Cathaoirleach: There will be no interruptions. |