Hayes, Michael

Tuesday, 15 July 1924

Dáil Éireann Debate
Vol. 8 No. 12

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ORDER OF BUSINESS.

After Vote No. 3 is disposed of.More Button

The Minister for Lands and Agriculture would not be affected.More Button

MILITARY SERVICE PENSIONS BILL, 1924—(REPORT STAGE.)

The amendment is outside the Money Resolution, but I thought an opportunity would be given on a new Money Resolution to discuss it. I will allow a certain amount of discussion. I cannot put this ame...More Button

Yes. It would be impossible to accept the amendment, as the Money Resolution states:— That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas of any pensions paya...More Button

The term “National Forces” was defined in the Bill originally by a reference to the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act. I do not think it was a correct reference. Is there any statutory defin...More Button

There seem to be two points about “in or with.” I do not know if Deputy McCarthy adverts to it. He wants to insert the words “or with” in line 15. I think the amendment comes down to the words “Nati...More Button

I do not know whether Deputy McCarthy had any interest in both points.More Button

I think Deputy Good should reserve that speech for the consideration of the Bill generally.More Button

We are not discussing this amendment with a view to its being put. It cannot be put, but in view of the peculiar circumstances, I have allowed a certain discussion upon it. Amendment not moved.More Button

I want to warn two Deputies, Deputy Mulcahy and Deputy Johnson, who have amendments 5 and 5 (a) on the paper, that this definition will exclude these amendments automatically.More Button

Deputies are constantly complaining that they do not get time to consider Bills. Well, I am afraid my position now is that I have not got time to consider this matter very carefully. When this Bill w...More Button

The words “National Forces” are the words used in the Money Resolution. If there be no definition of “National Forces” available we can make a definition. As the Money Resolution states, pensions shal...More Button

I would like the President to answer a question. The Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act, Part IV., Transitory Provisions, states:—“Until the Forces have been established under Section 22 of thi...More Button

They have not? Well, then, the “National Forces” appear to be defined in this Act. Does the President, as Minister for Finance, think it is good procedure to bring in a Money Resolution mentioning w...More Button

This amendment is intended to bring in the Criminal Investigation Department, is it not?More Button

Well, it must be done in some other way than by the method now proposed. The words “National Forces” remain defined in the Defence Forces Act.More Button

Has not the Act come into force yet?More Button

I am in the position of Deputies. We are transacting an immense amount of business, and I find it difficult to keep all these things in my head. A Money Resolution is of tremendous importance, and I...More Button

Nobody is competent to instruct the President on this point except myself. The responsibility is mine. I must make the decision myself as to whether a particular amendment in Committee is covered by...More Button

I am not concerned whether the armed forces mentioned here had or had not a statutory existence. They had an existence, whether a statutory existence or not is another question. They certainly had a...More Button

Is it not intended that service in the C.I.D. at any time will be covered?More Button

Would it not destroy the intention if it was found not to cover service under the control of the Minister for Defence?More Button

It is an extremely bad precedent to define the thing in a Money Resolution and to explain it afterwards, and particularly when the definition is already available. From the point of view of the Minist...More Button

I searched the particular Act and I find the reference to the National Forces in the transitory provisions of that Act.More Button

Yes, but it is still to be found, because the Act still runs.More Button

A new Money Resolution will have to be introduced to cover this point.More Button

The giving of notice could be waived. Of course the question of notice is one purely for the Dáil. If we do not require notice, notice would not be necessary. The President could produce the Money R...More Button

Yes, this amendment is out of order. I would like, in addition, to point out that it is impossible really to give proper consideration to matters of this kind when one does not get an opportunity to ...More Button

Unfortunately, it is not a question of law, it is a question of procedure. The President, I am afraid, cannot get advice on that question except from myself or one of my staff.More Button

That disposes also of amendments 3, 4, 5 and 5a. Would it not be better to postpone all the amendments for the new Money Resolution?More Button

I think amendment 6, standing in the name of Deputy McCarthy, is in the same category as the others; and I rule it out of order.More Button

That is not the case.More Button

Amendment 13 is consequential; it reads:— In the Third Schedule, page 7, line 54, to delete the word “or” and to insert after the figure and letter “1H” the figures and letters “1I, 1J, or 1K.” Amendm...More Button

I have made up my mind that amendment, No. 3 is out of order until a Money Resolution is introduced. I made up my mind, because I had a doubt on the question and I made it up in the direction which I...More Button

I did not get any information about them. If the President used the words “Revenue Commissioners” in a Money Resolution, would he think it a good thing if, in Committee, the words “Revenue Commission...More Button

Were they not in existence in August, 1923?More Button

Then, they were not part of the National Forces.More Button

I cannot follow that particular line of argument at all, but I have ruled the amendment out of order.More Button

The definition should be in the Money Resolution. It is reasonable to assume here that if you find the words “National Forces” used, it will have the meaning it had before. If you are going to change...More Button

I could give the President an example in which, I think, Deputy Johnson was ruled out of order. It was, I think, in connection with the Army Pensions Bill. There was a Money Resolution which stated—I...More Button

That is a wholly different question. My opinion is that, as far as I can discover, they do not come within any definition I can find of “National Forces,” and if it is desired that they should be bro...More Button

If the President is in order in putting down this amendment, surely the Gárda Síochána could be introduced by means of another amendment as part of the “National Forces.” The purpose of the Bill is ...More Button

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 3—EXECUTIVE COUNCIL.

Yes, any questions of policy in which the Executive Council are collectively responsible can be discussed on this Vote, but the difficulty that arises is, as the Deputy himself has pointed out, that w...More Button

I think it is a rule that in a discussion on the Estimates the question of legislation cannot be dealt with. The question is rather more difficult here in the case of the Executive Council.More Button

Even on an ordinary Estimate a Minister cannot be arraigned for having failed to introduce legislation. He can only be criticised from the point of view of administering money which he has got under ...More Button

I would regard that as an excellent way to deal with this particular Vote, because it solves the question of not going over again discussion which has taken place on the Estimates or on which discussi...More Button

I think the time is when the motion to refer the Vote back is being moved. At any rate it would be impossible to rule upon all the contingencies.More Button

That is not a point of order.More Button

took the Chair.More Button

It has been the practice without a motion.More Button

No. It was not necessary to move a motion to that effect. The order that the Dáil should sit until 10.30 has up to the present carried with it an adjournment for at least half an hour, in or about 6...More Button

The President says we cannot suspend the sitting for a period. We can.More Button

Yes, after taking the vote, we can.More Button

That is not the question.More Button

The Committee still continues but it is quite feasible to suspend the sitting for half-an-hour, three-quarters of-an-hour, or one hour, as has been done on several occasions before. The defeat of the...More Button

These questions are not questions for me to decide. I could not give a decision on any of these questions except that if the Committee wants to have a suspension for tea it can have it.More Button

I think, after the motion to report progress has been defeated, we should have the views of the President.More Button

It would be better if the President was allowed to continue his statement and was not interrupted.More Button

Deputies must leave my duties to me.More Button

Perhaps if the President addresses me instead of people who are opposed to him it would be simpler.More Button

The President has been speaking since 7.30, and this is the eighth interruption. He must be allowed to continue. These interruptions are merely on points of fact or on points of opinion. They can b...More Button

Deputy Milroy may continue his speech.More Button

resumed the Chair.More Button

Deputy Milroy cannot go on interrupting. He made a speech of an hour's duration and that will have to satisfy him. The Minister is in order in using reasonable arguments. The point Deputy Milroy is...More Button

The Deputy should not stand up while I am speaking. He must sit down, and he must accept my definition of these things. When the Minister has concluded, I will allow Deputy Milroy to make a personal...More Button

I have said here before that it is in the nature of things that votes of censure should be moved on any Government. It is in the nature of things that Ministers should be criticised, and it is in the...More Button

Not ad infinitum, so to speak.More Button

I was not here to hear that point raised.More Button

The Minister might as well conclude now, so that he will not be interrupted any more.More Button

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - DÁIL RESUMES.

Would the President state, for the information of the House, what time to-morrow the Committee will resume?More Button

I will not take a motion now that the question be put, but I will consider the matter carefully to-morrow.More Button


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