Cosgrave, William T.Friday, 25 July 1924 |
Dáil Éireann Debate
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ORDER OF BUSINESS.
I would suggest that we should resume the consideration of the Estimates this morning, adjourn at about 1.30 for lunch, and on resumption after the adjournment take the Questions and the Bills on the ...
Very good. I will consider that between this and the resumption at 2.30 p.m., and make an announcement. Ordered: “That the Dáil sit later than 4 o'clock for the consideration of financial business; t...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. VOTE 45.—ORDANCE SURVEY.—(RESUMED.)
The point is as to an inquiry?
If an inquiry by a committee of the Dáil is what is suggested, let us understand what that means. The Dáil is going to adjourn after a very strenuous session, and it is suggested that a Committee of ...
I agree with what Deputy Baxter has said. I was not in when Deputy McGarry made his statement, but now after his statement I think it would be unwise to wait two or three months to have this matter i...
I should say off-hand nothing would happen to them if they can substantiate the statements they make, and I should say if they do not substantiate the statements it might be serious for them.
“Good faith” is a very big thing.
That line of thought would lead us to a big field. If every dissatisfied officer who wishes to make a statement in good faith does so, and I am sure a number could be made, then the Department in ques...
There are engineers in the service of the State, not in that Department, who, I think, would give confidence in the matter of an inquiry of that sort. I have two in my mind, one who was in the servic...
I would probably be able to do so.
I will undertake to give that the most favourable consideration, and to announce this day week the name of the person I propose to select.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - DAIL RESUMES.
Deputy Johnson put a question to me concerning the possible resumption of the Dáil after Recess. I have been speaking to the Ceann Comhairle, and he agrees that if either he or I were to get a requi...
CEISTEANNA—QUESTIONS. ORAL ANSWERS. - THE WOOD RENTON COMMISSION.
The Minister for Justice went at length yesterday into the complaints made by Deputies as to alleged delay on the part of the Wood Renton Commission in dealing with various classes of claims, and I do...
CEISTEANNA—QUESTIONS. ORAL ANSWERS. - PAYMENT OF COMPENSATION AWARDS.
I am not aware that delays of many months have, as alleged by the Deputy, occurred in general in cases where investigations were carried out by inspectors from the Wood Renton Commission and where th...
CEISTEANNA—QUESTIONS. ORAL ANSWERS. - COMPENSATION AWARDS TO “UNIONISTS.”
I have not seen the particular statements referred to by the Deputy, but misrepresentations of this kind are part of the stock in trade of people of a certain political complexion and do not appear to...
I would not like to interpret what the Minister said, having regard to the fact that I did not hear him say it. Neither would I like to interpret offhand what his ideas were with regard to the matter...
CEISTEANNA—QUESTIONS. ORAL ANSWERS. - CHIEF ESTABLISHMENT OFFICER IN FINANCE MINISTRY.
An Assistant Secretary has been appointed to the Ministry of Finance for work arising in regard to control of establishments. The officer appointed is Mr. H.P. Boland. Mr. Boland served for over twen...
I should say that it is a permanent transfer.
I cannot say the date. I understand that the Minister for Finance dealt with the matter in June, and that he actually took up office here on the 15th July.
CEISTEANNA—QUESTIONS. ORAL ANSWERS. - BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND A REFUND.
The necessary steps are being taken to recover from the British Government the sum of £5,175 4s. 2d. referred to, and the matter will be disposed of without delay.
CEISTEANNA—QUESTIONS. ORAL ANSWERS. - CARNEW TRADER'S ACCOUNT.
Accounts in respect of the hire of motors by and the supply of petrol to the Army amounted to £4 8s. 6d. in July, 1922; 8s. 8d. in April, 1923; and £6 5s. 0d. in October, 1923. They were assessed at t...
CEISTEANNA—QUESTIONS. ORAL ANSWERS. - DEPENDENTS ALLOWANCE.
Mrs. Duffy's claim was disallowed after due investigation on the ground that the amount normally contributed by her son to his home over and above the cost of his own maintenance therein for a reasona...
The particulars furnished to me are the particulars which have been acquired after investigation. I have heard rumours to the effect that the statement made by the Deputy has been made. If it could b...
The usual source of investigation. I think that in these cases it is some Civil Servant who called on them.
I will look into the matter.
CEISTEANNA—QUESTIONS. ORAL ANSWERS. - COMPENSATION FOR NORTHERN REFUGEES.
If the Deputy would give me a copy of the question——
I am afraid that I must have mislaid it if I got it. If the Deputy would give me a copy I will reply before we adjourn.
ORDER OF BUSINESS.
All those on the paper have been finished, except No. 2 —The Oireachtas Vote. After that I would like to take the Old Age Pensions. Apart from that, I suppose we had better take them in the order the...
Yes.
No, sir, certainly not that I remember.
CRIMINAL JUSTICE (ADMINISTRATION) BILL, 1924—FROM THE SEANAD. - DAIL IN COMMITTEE.
I am moving to accept them all. I beg to move:— In Section 6 (1) the words “having regard to the merits of the case” deleted in line 5. Question—“That the Committee agree with the Seanad in this amen...
I think it might be better, if it were agreeable, that we should leave over these amendments for the present. Consideration of remaining amendments deferred.
DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - STATE LANDS BILL, 1924—THIRD STAGE.
Deputy Johnson has an amendment down to Section 2. I have circulated an amendment which I think Deputy Johnson will be prepared to accept. It is:— “To delete Sub-section (2) and to insert in lieu th...
Sub-section (a) says “each House of the Oireachtas has, by resolution, authorised the making or granting of such lease or licence.” I thought that that would meet the case put up by Deputy Johnson.
That was to meet the case that I mentioned to Deputy Johnson in private, if I might give expression to it in public—that cases might arise when the Houses might not be sitting and when there would be ...
The amendment we are putting up specifies that one of three things shall happen—a formal resolution—and I take it such a resolution would be necessary from both Houses in order to secure the immediate...
I shall hold this over until the Estimates have been dealt with, if Deputy Johnson wishes, so as not to take an undue advantage of him.
That is a very difficult question.
I would undertake that.
I beg to move:— Section 2, Sub-section (3), line 11, to delete the word “six” and to insert in lieu thereof the word “three.” That means that the Ministry has only got three months in which to operate...
I beg to move:— Section 2, sub-section (3), line 14, to add after the word “buildings” the words “and in accordance with the proposals specified in the said Schedule.”
The acceptance of that amendment would involve to some extent want of confidence in the Minister, but I would be prepared to accept it. Some of the particulars are not set forth. It is a reasonable ...
Certainly not.
Would the Deputy accept this undertaking from me: that, in respect of each one of these leases or licences which we propose to grant, the Clerk of the Dáil and the Clerk of the Seanad will be afforded...
I see a great difficulty in what the Deputy suggests. We draw up a lease or a licence, and for fourteen days it is held up in the Dáil or the Seanad office. From the point of view of business, there...
That is three and four.
Let us see where we are with regard to three and four. We have the land there, but nothing else. We have a liability on the State in respect of whatever compensation should be paid for the erection o...
If it comes under the description of State lands and that it is either a lease or a licence, the answer is contained in this measure. If they are not State lands, that is another question.
There is every opportunity for a member of the Dáil or of the Seanad to bring a matter of that sort before either or both Houses of the Oireachtas. I think any proposal of that kind would be very ser...
I beg to move:— To delete the Schedule and insert in lieu thereof the following new schedule:—
DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - DAIL RESUMES.
If there be no objection I would ask that the next stages of the Bill be taken now. It is a pressing matter. The matter of Kehoe Barracks is pressing and so is Clonmel, and also the Gloucester Stree...
I move: “That the Bill do now pass.”
I should have apologised. I thought that there would have been an opportunity for putting the amendment in the hands of Deputies, but some members of our staff are away, and, in consequence, those wh...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. VOTE 2—OIREACHTAS.
Deputy Johnson referred to a statement made here some time recently about looking after the nation's work. I think the Deputy who made that statement was satisfied after his lecture that things were ...
We will have to wait for that. I notice that one particular journal expresses an opinion sometimes three or four weeks after the matter has been introduced here. It occasionally adopts the attitude o...
I think there are very few Parliaments faced with such problems as we have and very few Parliaments that sat as long and had to do as much work as we have done. Those people who tell us that we have m...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 7—OLD AGE PENSIONS.
The amount estimated for Old Age Pensions for 1924-25 is £2,919,200, which shows a reduction of £357,800 from the previous year's estimate. The decrease of £358,000 under sub-head A is due to the red...
Under the Old Age Pensions Act the yearly value of any benefit or privilege enjoyed by a claimant must be taken into account when calculating means for Old-Age Pension purposes. Consequently, mainten...
No, I did not, but I got some pensions through. I got a number for persons who were not 70 years of age, and I believe many others did the same, and because these facilities are withdrawn and they ar...
I do not think I could subscribe to that. I believe that the usual evidence that is accepted in respect of a marriage certificate is 20, and there is sometimes no disposition at all to make enquiries...
Very good. I will look into these.
It was to my own knowledge.
That was the reading of the Act when I was a member of a Pensions Committee, and during that time more pensions were passed than since or before.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE No. 1—GOVERNOR-GENERAL'S ESTABLISHMENT.
I move:— That a sum not exceeding £5,458 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for t...
How much are you going to take off?
I may observe that this Vote is £3,215 less than last year. With regard to the particular item B, it was part of our bargain. It represents the establishment, and it was one of the conditions regard...
The number of telegrams which go out is very considerable, and they are very lengthy. A considerable amount of the time of one of the officers of my establishments is devoted to dealing with those te...
All communications passing between the British Government and this State go through the Governor-General's establishment.
They are already separate. The telegrams cost £200 and the telephones £700. You will find the items at the end of page 2. Vote put and declared carried.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 4—EXCHEQUER AND AUDIT.
I move:— That a sum not exceeding £12,487 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for ...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 8—LOCAL LOANS.
I move:— That a sum not exceeding £655,927, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, to...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 9—TEMPORARY COMMISSIONS.
I move:—
A Bill passed its Second Reading to-day—the Oireachtas Witnesses Oaths Bill, which came from the Seanad—which will dispose of one part of the Deputy's question.
As regards the Bill that the Deputy referred to, it is not dropped. A better description would be to say that it is in Limbo, and that we hope to be able to get it out by the autumn. Vote put and agr...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 18—SECRET SERVICES.
Perhaps the best explanation I can give is to say that it is a decreasing amount. Last year it went down from £220,000 to £50,000, and this year it is down to £35,000. I do not know that I would be ...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 21—EXPENSES UNDER THE REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE ACT AND UNDER THE ELECTORAL ACT.
Not before the adjournment. I would like to be able to consider the matter until next Friday.
I cannot promise that. I will have the matter under consideration during the week, and I can be questioned on it by Friday next.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 22—NATIONAL GALLERY.
I had a report when this occurred. I must say it was a very elaborate report. As far as I remember, it was from one side. I think it was from the side which is in opposition to Deputy Cooper's view...
I would prefer if Deputy Cooper would leave this matter over until after the Recess. As he says, it is not a matter upon which many people can express an opinion. But it is advisable that the Gallery...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE No. 23—MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES.
I beg to move:— That a sum, not exceeding £4,700, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 19...
This provision is made in respect of five students. The academic year starts in October, and five students are on the Estimate from October last. If there were six students it would necessitate an a...
I do not think it is likely that there will be any immediate change. That is a very big subject. I understand that Deputy Johnson is interested in it and that there is necessity for a change. I know...
No.
In that, as in other matters, the Minister for Finance has got to exercise very strong commercial instincts. I realise the importance of this dictionary. It was realised in the first Dáil Eireann Ca...
It was, but the value of money was much better than it is now. I think if one were to try and get one of the old copies for that price it would be a rather difficult search. The estimated cost of pr...
I hope so. Question put and agreed to.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 24—STATIONERY OFFICE.
I move:— That a sum not exceeding £102,029 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, to ...
Taking the last point first, the agent for Stationery Office publications is providing new and more suitable accommodation for the sale and display of Government publications. The prices of the Stati...
Was that at Ponsonby's?
That is very true.
I am afraid he would have to be trained.
Quite right.
I will undertake to bring that to the notice of the Stationery Office. I quite appreciate the importance of having a person of that type, but I am afraid he is both born and made. He has to acquire...
I do not think the Deputy is in earnest. I think Deputies will be possibly offended if I did that.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 27.—NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE COMMISSION.
I move:— “That a sum not exceeding £185,799 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, fo...
I do not know, except that the Minister is very honest and very anxious to see that a man would only get what he is entitled to get.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 28.—COUNTY COURT OFFICERS.
I move:—
The Estimate last year was, I believe, nominal, and I expect that the Ministry benefited by the experience gained during the year. On the experience gained during the year it was found that this incr...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 29—LAW CHARGES.
I move:— “That a sum not exceeding £44,465 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 30—HAULBOWLINE DOCKYARD.
I move:— “That a sum not exceeding £10,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 36—SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE.
I move:—
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 37—DUNDRUM ASYLUM.
I move:— “That a sum not exceeding £9,243 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for ...
I have not the information at the moment, but I will undertake to get it and supply it to the Deputy in the course of a week or so. Vote put and agreed to.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 40—GENERAL REGISTER OFFICE.
I move:— “That a sum not exceeding £12,311 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, to ...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 42—REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.
I move:—
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 51—ENDOWED SCHOOLS.
I move:— That a sum not exceeding £666 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for the...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 59—LEAGUE OF NATIONS.
I move:— That a sum not exceeding £6,075 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for a...
I will undertake to bring that before the Executive Council. We have not yet decided on the representation that will go out this year. I put it, of course, to Deputy Johnson that it would be rather ...
It sometimes happens in connection with parties which form the Opposition that they are really oil and water. I take it if such a proposal as this were to be considered and adopted by the Executive ...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - ESTIMATES.
I move:— Go n-aontuíonn an Dáil leis an gCoiste um Airgead sna Rúin Soláthar a tuairiscíodh i dtaobh na Meastachán Iomdha.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - COMMITTEE ON FINANCE.—ISSUE OUT OF CENTRAL FUND.
I move:— Chun slánú do dhéanamh ar an soláthar a deonadh i gcóir seirbhísí na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1925, go ndeontar suim £20,964,541 as an bPrimh-Chiste. That towards making good ...
The sum I am moving is included in the thirty-one millions, and something like ten millions have already been voted on account.
Yes.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - MOTION BY THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE.
I move:— Go n-aontuíonn an Dáil leis an gCoiste sa Rún san.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - APPROPRIATION BILL, 1924—FIRST STAGE.
I move for permission to bring in a Bill to apply a sum out of the Central Fund to the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, and to appropriate the further supplies granted in thi...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS.
I move that Standing Orders be suspended to allow the remaining stages of the Bill to be taken this evening. Question put and agreed to.
I move:— That the Bill be read a Second time. Question put and agreed to.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - DAIL RESUMES.
I move:— That the Bill be received for final consideration. Question put and agreed to.
I move:— That the Bill do now pass.
This is the first time I have heard of a case in which an expenditure of £10 entailed an increase in valuation of £100; and I hesitate to credit such an extraordinary increase in valuation as that. T...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - IRISH GRANTS COMMITTEE.
Deputy Morrissey put a question to me to-day which I am now in a position to answer. The Deputy asked the President whether his attention had been called to the statement recently made by the British...
I do not know whether it would extend to them, but if there are such cases they could apply to the Minister for Local Government, and if he recommends payment in respect of them I will undertake to fi...
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - THE ADJOURNMENT.
I move that we adjourn until this day week. I would like to consult the convenience of members, and I would say, provisionally, that we meet at 12 o'clock on Friday.
Will be till the 21st October, unless we have to sit the following day, which I do not think is likely.
It depends almost entirely on what recommendations we get from the Seanad in connection with the Appropriation Bill and other Bills.
I think we passed the second stage of two measures to-day.
I am consulting the convenience of Deputies in that connection. I think some might come along for the opening of the Tailteann Games. In any case it would give the Seanad almost the maximum amount o...
WRITTEN ANSWERS. - ACCOUNT FOR A TYPEWRITER.
Mr. Slattery's account is at present under consideration by the Stationery Office, which department is responsible for its settlement. I am informed that the discharge of the claim is being expedited.
WRITTEN ANSWERS. - A CO. GALWAY MERCHANT'S ACCOUNTS.
An officer called on Mr. Melville in May last and ascertained particulars of outstanding accounts amounting to 15s. and £44 11s. 5d. The former account was paid on the 19th ultimo. The latter, havin...
Mr. Gilmore's claim was received in the Department of Defence on the 17th instant. The letter from Guard Kelly which accompanied the claim does not afford verification of the quantity and price of th...
WRITTEN ANSWERS. - TUAM SHOPKEEPER'S ACCOUNT.
Mrs. Carroll's account, amounting to £39 9s. 0d., which was discharged on the 29th December, 1922, includes items amounting to £26 13s. 0d. in respect of bread supplied to troops in September and Octo...
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