CREAMERY BILL, 1928—FROM THE SEANAD.

Tuesday, 31 July 1928

Dáil Éireann Debate
Vol. 25 No. 8

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The Dáil went into Committee.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE (Mr. P. Hogan): Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  I move: That the Committee agree with the Seanad in Amendment No. 1:

Section 2, sub-section (1). The words “engaged in the manufacture of milk products or in the sale of milk” deleted in lines 31-2, and the words “carrying on a creamery” substituted therefor.

The Section will then read:—“Where a creamery or a company owning a creamery was (whether before or after the passing of this Act) acquired with moneys provided by the Oireachtas, every person carrying on a creamery who obtains (whether before or after the passing of this Act) a supply of milk,” and so on. There is nothing in it.

Mr. MORRISSEY: Information on Daniel Morrissey  Zoom on Daniel Morrissey  There is one point that I would like to have cleared up. I would like to ask the Minister whether this could not be taken as applying to a person who would be engaged in the collecting of milk and afterwards retailing it in the towns?

[1013]Mr. HOGAN:  It would.

Mr. MORRISSEY: Information on Daniel Morrissey  Zoom on Daniel Morrissey  Does not the Minister rather think that is putting a barrier on the sale of whole milk in the cities and towns?

Mr. HOGAN:  No; as the Bill was passed in the Dáil, every person engaged in the manufacture and sale of milk is definitely stated. In my opinion the amendment means the same thing, and that is the reason why I did not fight about it and so the Dáil passed the section as it then stood and this amendment was pressed by the Seanad and I agreed to it. The situation that the Deputy envisages does not arise. There are no cases where we bought creameries near a town and we would not go after them.

Mr. MORRISSEY: Information on Daniel Morrissey  Zoom on Daniel Morrissey  My point is that in Section 1 the expression “creamery” includes any factory or plant for the manufacture of milk products or by-products or any crude milk collecting station or depôt. A person buying milk from a farmer and retailing it would be included in the expression “creamery.”

Mr. HOGAN:  He would, but the Act would not apply to him, except in cases like this. Suppose for the sake of argument there was a creamery bought by us in North Tipperary and someone came in and started a depôt for the collection of whole milk to be retailed in Dublin, he could do so, but he would have to pay us so much a gallon for it.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. HOGAN:  I move: That the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 2:

Section 2, sub-section (2). The following words added at the end of paragraph (b):—“But such day shall not be a day following one on which such person was not open to receive milk supplies.”

Amendment No. 2 was suggested by Deputy Maguire in the Dáil. I agreed in the Dáil with Deputy Maguire that the idea underlying that amendment was an idea that we would carry out.

[1014] I stated on that occasion that I was not quite sure, for I had not time to make inquiries, but that by agreement there was some peak-day arranged between the Creamery and the Dairy Disposals Board. It was to be a day following a day on which the creamery would be closed. Afterwards I inquired in the Department of Agriculture and found that there was no such peak-day arranged for. Hence, the objection I had in the Dáil went by default, and I gave an undertaking that we would arrange for a peak-day. The same point was put up in the Seanad and this amendment was pressed.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. HOGAN:  I move: That the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 3:

Section 13, sub-section (5). A new sub-section inserted before the sub-section as follows:—

“(5) Where the business of a creamery is extended by the addition thereto of a class, branch, or department of creamery business not then carried on in such creamery, such class, branch, or department of business shall for the purposes of this section be deemed to be a separate creamery, and this section shall apply thereto accordingly.”

This is an amendment to Section 13. Section 13 provides that no new creamery shall be acquired or established by any person in contravention of this Act. Sub-section (5) reads as follows:—“for the purposes of this section the establishment of a creamery by a person shall be deemed to take place when such creamery is opened by such person for the carrying on of creamery business therein.”

In the Dáil we overlooked one possible contingency. A creamery might have very big premises; some of them have. They might have altered the arrangement of their machinery. Their machinery at present might be taking up the whole floor space. They might change a section of the machinery and leave half of the floor space vacant and establish some other business there, such as a casein factory. Obviously the intention of the Dáil, [1015] when they passed Section 13, was to prevent any establishment being started anew, started for the first time, but as the section was drafted it was clear that if a new business was established in a creamery, if there was room for the business, and if the machinery and lay-out were altered, if new machinery were brought in, that it would not come under Section 13. It was to provide for that contingency that this amendment was inserted. This amendment is aimed or intended to effect the very same purpose as Section 13 does.

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  I think the Minister ought to go into the question of casein and the Tipperary situation more fully before he asks us to accept this amendment. The one excuse he gave for getting the powers of licensing here on the last occasion was that he wanted to prevent redundancy. A certain foreign firm, he said, came in subsequent to the 1st January and started making casein which was going to be in competition, I take it, with the Condensed Milk Company. We on this side have indicated from the outset that we are supporting the general policy of the Ministry as far as giving to the farmers control over their own supplies and over their own industry is concerned. That is, as regards dairying. But as far as we have been able to learn, since the last meeting of the Dáil, the facts as given to us by the Minister were not accurate. It appears there is no question whatever now of a foreign company coming in and trying to exploit the situation. On the other hand, there is a society of farmers who own a creamery which was in competition with the creamery which the Minister has bought up, and in the carrying out of their legitimate business, in order to dispose of their supply of skimmed milk, they proposed to establish a casein factory and they have, in fact, done so. As far as we can learn, from the statement made by the Minister, he purposes preventing that company from carrying on that particular business. We are not going to support any victimisation of any particular company. If this section and the subsequent [1016] amendment, which even more definitely deals with that particular case, is intended simply to strengthen the Minister's hand in making a certain bargain, or anything of that kind, I am not going to support it. We want to get from the Minister a clearer outline of the situation as it is in Tipperary, seeing that this is the one case he says that the Bill was going to cover.

Mr. MORRISSEY: Information on Daniel Morrissey  Zoom on Daniel Morrissey  I have some knowledge of the position in Tipperary in regard to this matter, and I am satisfied from my information that there is and has been a question of foreign firms coming in to exploit this. I want to say that, so far as the Labour Party, the workers, and the organisation representing the workers in Tipperary are concerned, they have taken a very definite stand in this matter. We are anxious to get factories started. Unfortunately we have a good deal of unemployment in the town of Tipperary, but we are looking at this from a national point of view, and we know very well that this German firm did not come in for the good of the country and for the good of the unemployed. It is quite well known in the locality that the casein firm is not owned and is not being run solely by the Tipperary Co-operative Creamery, and it is fairly well-known that the machinery that was put in for the making of casein was put in by the Germans and paid for by the Germans. So far as the effect on the unemployment situation is concerned, the making of casein does not affect it. It has only led to the employment of one extra man, and one cannot understand why the Tipperary Co-operative Creamery is the only creamery in the country that has refused to come within the scheme. There is no doubt that it is a very big creamery, one of the biggest in Ireland, and there is no question whatever but that it has been efficiently managed. But it is well known that if it were not for the personal jealousies and antagonisms of certain individuals in opposition in that creamery there would not be this fuss and opposition to the scheme at all.

There is just another point. It must [1017] be remembered that casein is not being made in Tipperary. The milk is only curdled there, and it is sent out in tubs to be finished in Germany. If anything is to be done with the milk, either with regard to condensing or to casein, we want to have it done in Ireland and by Irishmen. I say that if casein is to be manufactured, or if we are to have the condensed milk industry in the country, the farmers of Ireland ought to be as competent to do it as the farmers of any other country. If capital is required to make casein or condensed milk I believe the capital will be forthcoming. But I want to assure the House that my information, which is from the organisation representing the workers in the town of Tipperary, who have, perhaps, as deep an interest in this question as any other section in the community, because they are anxious to have it developed to give employment, is that there is a foreign firm who are trying to get in there. The workers in Tipperary believe that it would be best for them and best for the country if the scheme were allowed to go ahead and if the Tipperary Co-operative Creamery, in common with every other creamery, were to co-operate in making the scheme a success.

Mr. FAHY: Information on Frank Fahy  Zoom on Frank Fahy  Like other Deputies, I am not quite certain as to the extent of the manufacture of casein in Tipperary or whether it is made at all in that particular creamery. I am sure that the Minister can inform us. But I do not see why an arrangement could not be come to with that creamery which would allow them to make casein under this scheme.

Mr. HOGAN:  I am glad to get an opportunity of stating the facts as I know them in this connection. May I say first that this is a storm in a teacup, and it is an example of the fact that a rather big and important policy can be held up by what—I agree with Deputy Morrissey—are purely personal jealousies, and held up by considerations which have absolutely nothing to do either with the mertis of the case or with the scheme itself. I believe firmly that that is the position here. I believe firmly that there is no [1018] real dispute here, that there is no real issue to be decided. Yet here we are discussing a very big national policy, and a good deal of the time of all parties is taken up in discussing issues which are entirely unreal, issues which are of no importance, disputes that in fact do not exist—because I have no dispute with the Tipperary Creamery— and matters that could quite easily be settled if people thought of the national policy and ceased thinking of personal antagonisms and personal interests that have their roots in the past and that should not be obtruded into the light of the present day at all.

I can only give my opinions, and I can only tell you the facts as I know them and as I have been told them. I need not go back and restate our policy in regard to the production of milk products. Our policy was to hand over the production of all milk products to the farmers themselves. That received the approval of the Dáil and in fact received the approval of the country, so that we can take that as settled as a basis to go on with. I do not think that that will be denied by any party—that we should hand over the production of all milk products to the farmers themselves, whether they be butter, condensed milk, casein, dried milk, or anything else that is made from milk. That was our policy. It was approved of by all parties, I think, and approved of by the country generally. Let us start from that. If that policy was approved of it should be carried out. It may be a wrong policy. I believe it is right, but I am not infallible. In any event let it be carried out. If you stop it in the middle, if you stop it before it is carried out, it disintegrates, you learn nothing, and you are getting nowhere. You have simply demonstrated that we have got nowhere that we are futile and that we have not the courage to be logical and to carry out that policy to the bitter end.

In this case we bought a creamery in Tipperary. From the point of view of equipment and plant it is agreed by everybody that it is one of the finest creameries in Ireland and one of the finest in the world. In that creamery there is a condensing plant. Before we [1019] bought that premises there were two operations carried out in the creamery, one, the making of butter from butter fat, and the other the condensing of milk from separated and from whole milk. There were other premises which we also bought—five or six of them—where milk was condensed, but we are dealing with Tipperary at the moment. When we bought it we adopted exactly the same procedure as we adopted in regard to every other creamery of the same kind. We found a co-operative creamery alongside it, a very fine co-operative creamery, a very successful co-operative creamery, a creamery with about 20,000 gallons of milk and with a supply of milk that was increasing every day, a creamery that was faced with the necessity of spending thousands of pounds in extending their premises. It was obviously an example, looked at on its merits, of the benefits of the policy which we were trying to carry out, the benefits that it conferred on co-operative creameries which were in close competition with proprietary creameries, for here you had a proprietary creamery which we bought, and a co-operative creamery, and the co-operative faced with the necessity of extending their premises, putting in new plant, which they are doing at present, to handle an increased milk supply, to enable them to compete with the premises which we bought and with the business which we bought.

We adopted exactly the same procedure in Tipperary as we adopted everywhere else and as was agreed on everywhere else. We said: “Take this creamery, which is one of the finest in Ireland; take the whole milk supply make the two into one and you will have one of the finest creameries in the world.” We said the same thing in other cases. In fifty or sixty cases, in cases that were not nearly as good, from the point of view of the Tipperary Co-operative Creamery, we were able to do business at once. Here we could not do business. It was quite impossible. We made agreements and they fell through. One side alleged that there was a mutual misunderstanding. There were mutual recriminations mutual accusations, and they found [1020] that they could not do business. However, we tried to, and we did reach a point where I personally thought we had agreement.

I had thought at one stage that the Tipperary Co-operative Creamery were willing to buy our creamery as well as our milk supply, and as well as any additional milk supply. We arranged that the price should be the same as in the case of any other creamery, good, bad or indifferent, poor or rich, and Tipperary is a very rich creamery. It was to be the same price that every other creamery paid for the milk, namely, £1 a gallon. We also agreed to give them the same concessions that we gave to any other creamery, that the money could remain outstanding for eight years, that they could pay it at half-a-crown per £ per annum, and that they could have the money at 5½ per cent. When the agreement came to be signed, we learned that they were under the impression that they were to get the money for eight years and were to pay no interest. I do not believe that that was a genuine misunderstanding. Any number of creameries were bought all around Tipperary, and they knew that everyone was buying on these terms. But when the agreement went there to be signed it was discovered that they thought they were not to pay any interest. I believe that Deputy Morrissey is right. I believe that the majority of the suppliers to the Tipperary Creamery, the majority of the Committee, wanted to pay this, realising that our proposal was in their best interests, but a few persons stopped the thing, and it was stopped for reasons which I would prefer not to go into, reasons which are not a credit to the Co-operative movement, personal reasons which had nothing to do with the Co-operative movement. When a committee makes a decision, and announces that decision as the decision of the committee, I am willing to accept it, and I do accept it, as a decision of the committee, even although I knew in fact that it was not the decision of the committee as a whole, but of a few people on the committee who were influenced by certain reasons which had nothing to do with the merits of the case. However, let us accept it in this [1021] case as the decision of the committee, as I accepted it. We were then faced with keeping open a creamery which we had bought. We re-organised it. We re-organised it in connection with a creamery at Clonulty which had been closed through bad management, and we have now a milk supply of 17,000 gallons coming to that creamery per diem, and when we bought it it had only about 6,000 or 7,000 gallons. So that you have got the situation in Tipperary that you have two creameries, one with 25,000 gallons of milk daily, nearly the biggest in Ireland, and another, with 17,000 gallons, one of the five or six biggest in Ireland, and there is plenty of room for both.

If Tipperary does not want to buy our creamery I am not complaining. I believe we are right. I believe people will fight when they want an objective. I do not want them to fight. We will keep the Tipperary Creamery, and all that we will ask the Tipperary Co-operative Creamery to do is to honour that bill and to pay for the 3,000 or 4,000 gallons of milk that they have got as the result of the purchase, because when we did purchase certain of the suppliers went over straight to the Tipperary Co-operative. Deputies from the country will know the reasons. Some farmers are very quick, and they believe that the man who gets in first often gets off the best, and some suppliers, representing 3,000 or 4,000 gallons of milk, are supplying the Tipperary Co-operative now. In spite of that, our supply has gone up from something like 6,000, 7,000 or 8,000 to something like 17,000, and we have now the position where there is plenty of room.

I think Tipperary is wrong in not agreeing to this proposal. I think their creamery would then be one of the finest in the world. But if they do not want to do it, well and good; they may be right in the long run, and I am not going to ask them. There are technical considerations to be taken into account. Anyway you cannot ask people to go back on an attitude they have taken up. Whether it is right or wrong, they find it hard to do so. I do not want to ask them. But we do want them to do what poor creameries here, there, and everywhere have agreed to do, and that is to pay for the milk supply that [1022] they have got. They have got 3,000 gallons extra, and they have to pay. Under the Bill they will pay for it.

It is really a waste of time discussing this. There are dozens of much more important issues in connection with the transfer of the Condensed Milk Company that I am not able to attend to because of the talk over penny-halfpenny issues which are of no importance to the real scheme, and that are issues raised only in the Dáil. However, I suppose that is inevitable. Anyway I hope it is clear that we do not want Tipperary to buy the creamery that the Government has purchased. We merely want them to pay for the milk that they have got. When this Bill is passed they will have to pay for it, and I believe that they are quite willing to pay.

Let us come to the other side. When they refused to sign the agreement we naturally refused to take their milk supply for condensing purposes. I think that was quite legitimate. I think it was perfectly fair, in the interests of the other creameries which had signed their agreements. Remember that we are dealing with other creameries all over Tipperary and in this vicinity where agreements have been signed, and where shares have been issued, creameries with nothing like the same amount of money and nothing like its prosperity. We were dealing with them, and they were saying, quite naturally: “It is most unfair to force us to honour this agreement and to pay our liabilities under this agreement, whereas a much wealthier creamery like Tipperary need not sign it, and they will get all the benefits.” We agreed that it was most unfair, and we said to Tipperary: “We will not take your skimmed milk for condensing purposes unless you sign this agreement, or an agreement to pay for the milk you have got.” We refused to take their skimmed milk, and they immediately invited in a German firm to make casein out of it. I heard last January that this firm was coming in. I got in touch with them through the proper source, which I will not mention. I asked if they intended to come in and establish a casein factory. I told them that if they did they would be cutting across [1023] the national policy, that it was our policy to hand over the manufacture of the products of the milk to the farmers, and that if they were coming in they were doing so with my opposition and against the national policy. They quibbled and quibbled and came in. All the correspondence took place last February.

Before ever they spent one single penny—though they may have made agreements: I do not know about that —I made it absolutely clear to that firm in the proper way that they would be coming in against our wishes, and coming in against the national policy. They quibbled and quibbled and came in, and they put machinery into the Tipperary Creamery. And here is the shocking part of it: Rightly or wrongly all this policy has been in the interests of the co-operative movement; in other words, has been in the interests of the movement for handing over to the farmers complete control of at least a very important aspect of their own business, and yet one farmers' creamery, one of the biggest in Ireland, definitely out of pique, went out of its way to try to smash that policy by bringing in a proprietary firm. That is what it comes to. Anyway they came in and put up machinery, and the process of putting up that machinery coincided exactly with the various stages of this Bill. They got very busy when this Bill reached the Dáil. A fortnight ago they walked into my office. This circular, signed by Patrick L. Ryan, President, and Joseph C. Delaney, Secretary of the Tipperary Co-operative Creamery, has been sent to all the members of the Dáil. They say: “We got two Germans to teach us the method, and these have returned to their own country. A factory has been erected, paid for and owned by the farmers constituting this Society.” When this Bill passed the Dáil they began to realise that business was meant, and that when we had a national policy to carry out we meant to carry it out, and they thought that the time had come to be polite. They walked into my office. One of them is a director. They told me they had owned the machinery. I do not know who is telling the truth.

[1024]Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  Nor do we.

Mr. HOGAN:  You can have it either ways. The Tipperary people say that they own the machinery, the Germans say that they own the machinery. Anyway take it from me that I was told definitely a fortnight ago by that firm that they owned the machinery in that creamery.

Mr. G. BOLAND: Information on Gerald Boland  Zoom on Gerald Boland  Was that by the German firm?

Mr. HOGAN:  Yes, and of course it would be all to their interest to tell me the opposite. They told me that they owned the machinery. One of their directors was over there giving them instructions. They told me that the milk was curdled in Tipperary and taken over to Hamburg to be finished as casein, and, of course, that is a thing that can be verified. Anyone from Tipperary knows just what is occurring— that the tubs are being sent over. Moreover, I was told in a letter in the month of February that that was their intention, and they told me that they were coming in in spite of me. I told them that this Bill was to be introduced. Last February they told me that they were coming in, and they told me in writing that they intended to extend their operations to other creameries in Tipperary, so that it is not a question of the Tipperary creamery at all, at least, so far as their intentions are concerned. I have it in writing, not from the firm, but from a person who must represent the firm and who must be speaking for the firm, or whose duty it is to say what the firm's intentions are, that they were setting up this machinery in the Tipperary creamery that they intended to extend that machinery, and were in the process of making agreements with other creameries in Tipperary as well. That was last February. It was not the case of one creamery; it was exactly what I thought was going to be done on a big scale. A number of creameries were to be brought into it. These were all their own admissions, and now, at this hour of the day, we are told in this letter the machinery is all owned by the Tipperary creamery. I ask you to test that in one way. My view is that we [1025] cannot get anywhere unless people who tell things which are not true, at least tell artistic untruths which cannot be verified—

A DEPUTY:  Do you say that as an expert?

Mr. HOGAN:  No, not as an expert.

Mr. COONEY: Information on Eamonn Cooney  Zoom on Eamonn Cooney  You will teach us how to do that.

Mr. CARNEY: Information on Frank Carney  Zoom on Frank Carney  Will the Minister allow me to ask a question?

Mr. HOGAN:  I will answer any question afterwards. I did not think this was a political matter. I want to develop it, so let me finish it. I would ask you to test this by one fact. A letter appeared in all the papers the other day, and in that letter people were told that no condensing takes place in Tipperary. Surely there are Tipperary Deputies here who know that that is a quibble of the worst kind. In that letter it was stated: “We offered our milk to the Condensed Milk Company, and I am sure the people throughout the country will be interested to hear that no condensing takes place in Tipperary.” What was that meant to convey to the people of the country? It was meant to convey that the condensing plant in Tipperary was not in a position to take their milk. Of course, it is in a position to take their milk, and the quibble is this: that while the milk is taken in at Tipperary and all the intermediate processes are done in Tipperary, the final finishing is done in Lansdowne. That was just an artistic quibble. The writer of the letter tried to convey to the people of the country that the reason they got in this German firm to make casein in their creamery was that they could not dispose of their separated milk to us because we could not do any condensing in Tipperary. The fact is that we could take twice as much milk in Tipperary and use it for all the intermediate processes. Neverthless they tried to chance their arm. They tried to quibble about condensing in Tipperary and finishing in Limerick. I would rather finish in Limerick than finish in Hamburg. That is what is happening here.

[1026] That is the position in regard to condensing. We will take every drop of milk the moment they do what every other creamery in Ireland has done. Am I at this stage to be told, by anyone seriously interested in this policy, that I ought to give better terms to them than to other creameries? We are not asking them to buy the creamery. We are only asking them to pay for the milk supplies, and the Dáil has decided that a fair price is £1 per gallon and that a fair arrangement is that they should have eight years to pay at 5½ per cent. Am I to go now to this creamery and give them special terms, and if I am, have I any answer to any creamery which has voluntarily signed an agreement? It is absurd. I cannot do business on these lines. I have no grievance against this creamery. I was in Tipperary creamery once, but I am not going to give them special terms and do an injustice to every other creamery in Ireland simply because this one creamery kicked up a row. Anyway the dispute is ended, because as far as I am concerned, and I stand or fall by this, when the Act is passed they will be asked to pay £1 per gallon and they will not be asked to spend much money. I think it is wrong that personal animosities and all sorts of futile quarrels should stop the organisation of supplies even in this small area. We will ask them to take 1,000 gallons and a pay £1 per gallon and that will end it. We will not allow this casein factory there.

Look at the matter dispassionately. As everyone knows, the difficulty is to get foreign capital into the country, and the first thing that foreign capitalists do when they come here is to make a bee-line to the Minister for Finance to see what money he will put up and what guarantees he will give them. We did not send for this firm; they came in themselves. They came in against my express wishes, speaking as the Minister for Agriculture and as the exponent of the Government policy in regard to creameries. They came in in spite of that. They came in in spite of the fact that I announced that I would stop them by legislation. They put their money into it. I am satisfied of one thing namely, it was not [1027] directly to make profits they came in. Of course any commercial firm operates to make profits in the long run, but I am perfectly certain that it was not in the expectation of making immediate profits that they came in.

I am perfectly certain that they would be willing to make a loss for three or four years, and that they would make that loss at the prices they were willing to give. I am perfectly certain they did not come in in the interests of the farmers, or on the merits of the case. I am equally certain that the Tipperary creamery did not make a bargain on the merits of the case. Of course Tipperary creamery is being used by them. The Tipperary creamery thought that they were using the Hamburg firm, but as a matter of fact, the Hamburg firm was using them. They did not come in there for sentimental reasons. They are not going to be used by the Tipperary creamery or any other creamery. I think the exact opposite was the fact. I would like to know why they came in against our wishes; why they put in their own money against our wishes? Where were they during all the long years when this creamery was owned by Messrs. Lovell and Christmas? Why had you not outside firms in England and in Tipperary anxious to provide an outlet for the skim milk of farmers. I do not understand it. We are endeavouring to carry out a far-reaching policy which may be wrong or which may be right—that is, the transfer of the manufacture of milk products to the farmers. There are big interests all over the world, regardless of national considerations, which do not like that, and while I cannot be any more definite I can merely suggest that there is a relation between their coming and that opposition.

I will be asked another question: whether I think condensed milk is a better proposition than casein. I have not the faintest idea. All I know is that there is very little money in condensed milk. I do not know whether there is a fortune in casein. I have not the faintest idea. That is not my job. But I do know this, that if the farmers of this country decide to embark on [1028] the manufacture of casein they will do so on the merits and not in order to make a single move in the trade war. They will do so as an organised body, having examined the merits of the situation and having come to particular conclusions for good commercial economic reasons, and they will not be rushed into it by one creamery for its own purposes or for purposes which have nothing to do with the merits of the case. The manufacture of condensed milk may fail in five years for all I know. I do not know the first thing about it. We will hand it over to this organisation which, I presume, will have its own experts. They may find that it is a good or a bad business. If they find it is a bad business they can scrap it and turn to the manufacture of casein, but at this stage, before our organisation is complete, before the business is transferred to the farmers, before the farmers as a whole are in a position to make themselves felt, we are not going to allow any one body to smash up the whole organisation.

I just want to warn Deputies beforehand that if, in a year or two years' time, the manufacture of condensed milk proves to be a failure, I do not want them to suggest that I said “I told you so.” I want to make it clear that my ignorance on the subject is almost profound. All I know is that we bought five or six magnificent condensed milk factories. We have partly reorganised them and we will completely reorganise them and hand them over to the farmers to do what they like with them. If they think, after densed milk business is not sound, they can stop it, and if they think that casein is a better business, they can go in for it. They should be able to finance and generally perfect any particular scheme, any particular plan or class of business which they want to go into, but in the meantime I do not be-to be stopped half way. I do not believe this firm has come into the country to do good for the farmers. I do not think the attitude of the Tipperary Creamery on this matter has been for the interests of Irish farmers, but let us forget that. What is the fight about? I do not want them to [1029] buy. I am going to stop the manufacture of casein.

Mr. MOORE: Information on Séamus Moore  Zoom on Séamus Moore  Is that irrespective of any guarantee as to the creamery owning the capital?

Mr. HOGAN:  I want to be convinced of that. I am absolutely certain they do not own it. I think they would say themselves they did not own it, if they were cross-examined. A director of the Company told me himself that they own the machinery. There is nothing easier in the world than to fake books.

Mr. MOORE: Information on Séamus Moore  Zoom on Séamus Moore  Will you accept any guarantee from the society?

Mr. HOGAN:  Are we children? If you were talking as one commercial man to another, you know perfectly well that you would not be prepared to listen to that for five minutes. They brought in these people and now, to camouflage it, they say they do not own it, but I know there was a very close alliance between them. I think it is perfectly clear on the face of it. I know that if they want to “cod” us, and if they got an artificial ruling that they owned this factory, they could carry on the manufacture of casein. It would be easy to give them a loan, while they could be financed from Hamburg the whole time. I am not going to be taken in by nonsense of that kind. Casein appears to be gold in this country now, although we never heard of it until last year. Apparently we have to wait for a year and a half to make up our minds whether it is good business or not. We ought to face this matter in a sensible way and face it on the merits of the case. I do not want to hear of the Tipperary case again. I do not want to fight with them. I want them to go on with their own business, and I hope they will be as successful as they were in the past. I do not care twopence about the Tipperary creamery or any other creamery in Ireland. Why all this pother about one creamery? We never see the forest for the trees, we are so anxious over a dispute which leads nowhere. I would like to see a first-class debate and a first-class opposition to the general policy. Everyone says that the general policy is great but if we get the [1030] smallest chance of cutting off our nose to spite our face, we hasten to do so.

Mr. CARNEY: Information on Frank Carney  Zoom on Frank Carney  The Minister evidently thinks that this German firm owns the machinery as opposed to the Tipperary creamery. He says that the milk is being sent over to Hamburg in the curd state. I ask the Minister why should elaborate machinery be installed if they are to take milk in the curd state and send it over to Hamburg? From any creamery in Ireland milk can be exported in the raw state or in the curd state, but for the extraction of casein elaborate machinery is required. I ask why should elaborate machinery be installed in Tipperary if they are going to send the milk in the curd state to Hamburg?

Mr. HOGAN:  I was going to suggest that you should ask a Deputy from Tipperary—Deputy Fogarty, Deputy Sheehy, or Deputy Morrissey. We need not talk about circumstantial evidence at all. Tipperary is not in West Africa. The firm themselves have admitted to me that the milk is curded there and is taken over to Hamburg. There was no elaborate machinery put in. I would be prepared to make a bet that there was not £1,000 worth of machinery put in.

Mr. CARNEY: Information on Frank Carney  Zoom on Frank Carney  Then what is all the pother about?

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  We want, as far as we can, to see that this scheme is administered justly. As we indicated, we are in favour of the general principle. Any powers that the Minister wants for the administration of that scheme we will support, provided the scheme is being administered justly. We are interested in the Tipperary situation mainly because of the fact that the statements made by the Minister are Quite different form the statements made to us.

Mr. HOGAN:  How can I help that?

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  We can help it by trying to get out the truth—not voting for your measure until we get it, or try to get it anyhow. As we see it, there are in Tipperary two competing creameries. I thought the object of the Minister's whole scheme was to prevent [1031] this trade war. The Minister started the trade war evidently by saying he would not take the supplies. Would it not be far more decent if he did not want to have two creameries competing in Tipperary to go and get compulsory powers of arbitration? The Minister has said he does not want these two competing creameries. He thinks it is a pity that we are going to have competition between two societies in one town, probably drawing from the same area, and are going to have a trade war. We may assume that the same troubles are going to happen when it passes out of the Minister's hands into those of the other society.

Mr. HOGAN:  The Deputy is under a misapprehension in this matter. He need not rely upon my word—he can read the Bill. I told him there were 25,000 gallons of milk going into one creamery and 17,000 into another. Under this Bill, and under the Co-operative Bill, all the suppliers will have to be shareholders. The suppliers of the 25,000 gallons will be shareholders in one creamery, and the suppliers of the 17,000 will be shareholders in another. That will more or less fix the position. Seventeen thousand gallons or twenty-five thousand gallons is three times as much as an economic milk supply. As a result of the reorganisation there is an ample milk supply for two creameries there, and there will be no trade war in Tipperary as far as we are concerned. I give the Deputy and undertaking: If the Tipperary creamery expresses any wish to take over our creamery and our 17,000 gallons to-morrow they can have it. Is that fair? If they do not want it, we will keep it. Could I do anything else?

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  The position, as we see it, is that there are two creameries competing practically in the same area, at least there is a war on at present.

Mr. HOGAN:  There is not—do not make a war of it.

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  The Minister has said that he will not take the supply from them. I call that a trade war.

[1032] Ordinarily, if anybody else had a supply of skim milk, they would take it, I presume.

Mr. HOGAN:  No; again the Deputy is under a misapprehension.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE: Information on Michael Hayes  Zoom on Michael Hayes  Let the Deputy proceed.

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  I am only anxious to get information. I want to have it made clear. I do not want to do any thing, and neither does any Deputy on this side want to do anything that would stop the operation of this scheme for an instant, but we want to get clear on the facts. As we see it, we have here two creameries, in one of which the Minister has a say, and his policy is effective. As a result of that policy they are not taking skim milk. They say in effect: “You have to take over this creamery, or you have to have your skim milk go waste.” They said; “What are we to do?” I am not saying this—I am only taking the material published; I have no other information. I want to get the facts. They say: “What are we to do with our skim milk, as you will not take it from us? The simplest way in which we can get rid of our skim milk and make it valuable is to manufacture casein.” They set out to do that. As far as we can see, it is the direct result of a trade war begun by the Minister for Agriculture or the Dairy Disposals Board.

Mr. HOGAN:  Will the Deputy say what I ought to have done?

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  It would be far straighter and better to look for compulsory powers of arbitration in a case of that kind, not to start with the strength of your position to try and crush out people and make them do something which they think is against their interests.

Mr. HOGAN:  What does the Deputy mean by compulsory powers of arbitration?

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  What I mean very definitely is this, that where voluntary arrangements could not be come to powers of arbitration should be set up, both parties to have to abide by it.

[1033]Mr. HOGAN:  That would be by legislation?

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  By legislation. We have, as far as we can see, these two competing creameries. Apparently it is the intention of the Minister or the Dairy Disposals Board to break down the opposition of the opponents in that particular area by preventing them from manufacturing this raw material into the only product that could be economically profitable to them. That is what we see. We do not like that particular way of doing business. We believe in the whole principle, but we want to see it carried out fairly. First of all, it seems to us to be against the whole scheme to allow two creameries to operate in that particular area when the Minister himself thinks it better that it should be done otherwise, and at the same time to start on what I regard as a trade war, one competing against the other. If the Minister can satisfy us on this particular point, we are prepared to give him the powers required, but we do not want to give powers which are simply to be used as a weapon in this trade war.

Mr. LEMASS: Information on Seán F. Lemass  Zoom on Seán F. Lemass  As we had a number of contradictory statements made here in connection with this matter, and particularly as the Minister contradicted himself, we would like to get the thing cleared up. He referred to the machinery established in the Tipperary factory and said it was probably not worth £1,000. In the Senate he said: “Their next move was to invite a German firm into the country to establish a casein factory in their creamery —a proprietary concern. At present that firm owns £200,000 or £300,000 worth of machinery, which was installed during the last six months.”

Mr. HOGAN:  That is a mistake.

Mr. LEMASS: Information on Seán F. Lemass  Zoom on Seán F. Lemass  Whose mistake?

Mr. HOGAN:  It is a misprint. I will tell you what I said.

Mr. MORRISSEY: Information on Daniel Morrissey  Zoom on Daniel Morrissey  Might I say that if the Tipperary Co-operative creamery wanted to give the full facts of the case to the public, and even to Deputies, they would not have adopted the attitude they did on Sunday last, when [1034] they refused at the public meeting to allow the secretary of the Tipperary Industrial Development Association to speak to the resolution, because he was one of the few men in the town who had been in close touch with the whole question from the beginning and was in a position to give the full facts of the case? He was not allowed to speak from the platform of this company at the public meeting, although not only was he secretary of the Tipperary Industrial Association, but a public representative also.

Mr. FOGARTY: Information on Andrew Fogarty  Zoom on Andrew Fogarty  The Minister for Agriculture has said that only a few people in the Co-operative Creamery refused to take over the Condensed Milk Company's creamery. That is untrue. We held a meeting of suppliers in that creamery and refused to take it over on certain grounds. They had practically come to an agreement at first until such time as the Minister, or some of his Party, had told them that they had £600 a year, besides the dairy, to be accounted for, which they would have to take over. On these grounds they refused to take over the creamery. He also said that there was no condensed milk made in Tipperary. I can tell him there was. What was Cleeve's factory but a condensing factory before it was taken over?

Mr. HOGAN:  I said the opposite.

Mr. FOGARTY: Information on Andrew Fogarty  Zoom on Andrew Fogarty  You said there was no condensed factory in Tipperary.

Mr. HOGAN:  That is what they said.

Mr. FOGARTY: Information on Andrew Fogarty  Zoom on Andrew Fogarty  He is opposed to any German firm coming in. Why does he not start some industry there for the unemployed? If the people of Tipperary do not get something where will they be? What are the labouring people to do? Are they to die of hunger? I think that is a matter for the Minister if he has any interest in this creamery business. To my mind, he does not care. He says he is going to put this thing through and that he will hand it over to the farmers when it is through. Then if it falls through he will say: “I am out of it. It is the farmers and suppliers who are responsible for letting it down”—the scheme which he put through and which cost the farmers [1035] thousands of pounds. I think it is very unfair. To my mind, the whole thing is a fiasco—taking over all these proprietary creameries.

Mr. MAGUIRE: Information on Bernard John Maguire  Zoom on Bernard John Maguire  I would like to know, assuming that this amendment is carried into effect, will it mean that the creamery, at present engaged in the manufacture of casein, will have to cut off that part of their business, or else sell their milk to the combined creameries? Now, having regard to the fact that you refused to deal with this creamery in the past and refused to accept the supplies of their milk, is it not very likely you mean to continue to refuse to accept the surplus supply of milk they used for the manufacture of casein? The matter referred to by Deputy de Valera is certainly very grave. A trade war has existed and you claim justification for it and that your action can be justified on the merits of the case. You may claim, further, when you refuse to accept their milk used for the purpose of manufacturing casein, you are justified in refusing it. There is grave danger, further, that, perhaps, in the new Co-operative Bill powers will be taken in such a way as to bring additional pressure upon this creamery in that area and although, at present, you say that they are entitled to carry on their business in their own way there is danger that there will be greater powers asked for, and probably secured, that will have the effect of compelling these people either to purchase your creamery at the price you consider it is worth, at a particular time, or go out of business altogether.

Suggestions were made from these benches with the idea of bringing about a reasonable settlement in this case. Anyone can see from the Minister's speech that a good deal of passion has been aroused as a result of these negotiations, and he is not exactly an impartial person to deal with this problem in the proper sense. I think the only reasonable way to deal with it, as passions have been aroused, is to submit it to a set of individuals who will deal with it from the point of view of getting the best results. The Minister made an explanation as to [1036] why the Germans had come in, which may seem feasible enough, but he cannot get away from the fact that the big underlying motive was there always for such a thing to happen, namely, the method of purchase by Lovell and Christmas and others who came in and paid the price was an incentive to the Germans and others to come in with a view to making as good a deal out of it.

Mr. HOGAN:  That is all nonsense.

Mr. MOORE: Information on Séamus Moore  Zoom on Séamus Moore  Will the Minister say, if this amendment goes through, whether it will be necessary for creameries which have cheese machinery installed but not in use, to get permission from the Minister before they can use that machinery?

Mr. HOGAN:  That is, unfortunately, the position.

Mr. MOORE: Information on Séamus Moore  Zoom on Séamus Moore  Then I submit the House should examine the amendment very carefully befor it agrees to it. It is another instance of saying that you can always trust a Government Department to do what is right. In this case the whole fortunes of an industry are going to be put into the hands of a Government Department. I have often heard it expressed that one of the most desirable things about the milk industry is that it should be as mobile as possible and always ready to adapt itself to new demands and that it should take every possible precaution against getting into such a state that it would follow blind routine. The Minister gave a further reason why we should be very careful about this amendment when he made a remark like this—that he would rather see condensed milk being finished at Lansdowne than see casein finished at Hamburg.

Mr. HOGAN:  I was not as pathetic as all that.

Mr. MOORE: Information on Séamus Moore  Zoom on Séamus Moore  I think I am conveying the sense of what the Minister said. It was of course quite unlike the Minister's usual pose. As a rule, he is opposed to flag waving and wild gestures. In this case he was indulging in the very thing that he poses as being opposed to. The finishing of casein in [1037] Hamburg might be a great deal more profitable for the Tipperary dairy farmers.

Mr. HOGAN:  And it might not.

Mr. MOORE: Information on Séamus Moore  Zoom on Séamus Moore  Since they are both intended for export—condensed milk is also intended for export—it might be more profitable to finish them in Lansdowne. If that is the sort of argument he puts up we can see the Government department adopting an equally irrational attitude when an application comes up from Lombardstown or some other creamery asking to be permitted to carry on cheese-making. Frankly, I think it is a very dangerous amendment, and I would like to hear the Minister give a much more reasonable explanation than the rather impassioned one he gave in favour of it.

Mr. HOGAN:  I am perfectly certain that I will not satisfy Deputies. Even though Deputy de Valera says he will have to be wooed befor he consents, I am perfectly certain I will not be able to satisfy him. I do not understand those invitations to repeat myself again and again. Deputy Maguire thinks that there were terrible passions aroused over this matter. There are Deputies that believe that we should live in an atmosphere of terrible passions. There are no passions about anything in this country, merely pretences; that is one of our little national weaknesses. We would like to feel we are a very passionate people. In fact, most of the passion is bogus. There are neither bogus nor other passions over this matter. I cannot pump up any passion upon this matter. I only want to be left alone, and I want futile talk to stop and people to realise that there is a big job on which concerns the trade of the country. Deputy de Valera is very fond of the word “straighter.” It would be straighter if we were to look for compulsory arbitration. Would the Deputy think ahead a little bit? How would it be straighter? You should not go into arbitration unless you are prepared to accept the findings of the arbitrator. Otherwise you would be deceiving the Tipperary creamery. It may be a gross crime, but it is my policy to see that the Tipperary creamery pays the same [1038] price for the milk as every other creamery in the country. Is that all wrong?

Mr. FOGARTY: Information on Andrew Fogarty  Zoom on Andrew Fogarty  Is the Minister aware that they pay from a penny to three halfpence per gallon more for the milk than others?

Mr. HOGAN:  The Deputy says that they pay a penny or three halfpence more per gallon for milk than any other creamery. I am not aware of anything of the kind. There are creameries in Ireland that pay a far bigger price than the Tipperary creamery and that has got nothing to do with the case. Deputy de Valera says: “Why could you not arbitrate; pass a Bill providing for compulsory arbitration and set up arbitrators?” Why should I do that, when I do not intend to accept the verdict? That may be all wrong, but it is a definite policy. I cannot give any other terms to the Tipperary creamery than we give to the other creameries.

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  Is there not a question of taking over plant?

Mr. HOGAN:  No. The question to be arbitrated on was what price they should pay for a certain milk supply promised. The point at issue between us was not the capital sum, but the interest. Therefore the arbitration would be futile unless I intended that they should not pay the interest or should pay a lesser interest than any other creamery. Supposing we did agree with that, surely it is obvious to any Deputy who has any knowledge of business that we would have to make the same agreement with every other creamery—reopen voluntary agreements all over the country. What is the point of talking about arbitration, then, except for the sake of talk? What is Deputy Maguire's point in talking about dropping passion and coming to a compromise? Let us come down to the facts of the case. Do Deputies want me to sell 3,000 gallons of milk to this creamery cheaper than any other creamery? If they do why did they agree to the general principle? Why did the co-operative movement agree to the general principle of one pound per gallon and five and a half per cent. interest for eight years? Both [1039] in politics and economics there is an extraordinary love and belief in futility on the opposite benches.

The political analogy for this would be that there are some States where there is a veto of one. Apparently, if I am to take Deputies on the opposite side seriously, that is their policy here. Am I to be asked to carry out a big commercial transaction, and yet that that transaction is to be changed every time that one creamery out of a hundred changes its mind? Here is the case of one creamery wanting better terms than the rest had voluntarily agreed to give. You could not do business on the basis that one creamery out of a hundred could change its mind every time it liked.

Dr. RYAN: Information on James Ryan  Zoom on James Ryan  Did you change your terms for these particular people? You put in a special sub-section to deal with them.

Mr. HOGAN:  To deal with the Tipperary creamery?

Dr. RYAN: Information on James Ryan  Zoom on James Ryan  But with what they say now they own.

Mr. HOGAN:  I put in a special sub-section to see that they gave us exactly the same terms as the others. That is all. The only point I could get out of what Deputy de Valera said was that it would be straighter to arbitrate. Arbitration means that you have to accept the arbitrator's decision, and the possibility of different terms for one from the terms voluntarily agreed on by 99 per cent. of the creameries of the country. When this Bill is passed, as I told Deputy de Valera, they can either buy the creamery or leave it. I prefer them to buy it. If they like to buy, they can buy on the same terms as everybody else. If they do not like to buy, I will keep it. What more can I do? I cannot go down and sing to them.

Mr. G. BOLAND: Information on Gerald Boland  Zoom on Gerald Boland  I will tell the Minister what he can do if he wishes. It is admitted that the Tipperary company is owned by the farmers. To that extent it is their business. Does not this mean that the Minister is putting in a penal clause to prevent them extending their business? He is going to [1040] use the power he has so that they will not be able to dispose of their surplus milk. I agree that the Minister may be entitled to refuse to give them any different terms to the terms he has given to anybody else. On the other hand, surely these co-operative farmers have the right not to accept the Minister's conditions if they can see another line in which they can branch out? For that reason I think the Minister is not entitled to ask for a special penal clause to deal with them. The Minister wants to be let alone, and so do we all. In the Seanad, the Minister mentioned the sum of £200,000, but when he comes here and mentions £1,000, I think it is time for someone to intervene.

Mr. HOGAN:  I did not mention £200,000.

Mr. G. BOLAND: Information on Gerald Boland  Zoom on Gerald Boland  The Minister is reported as having definitely stated that there was machinery to the value of £200,000 installed. He told us a moment ago that the figure was £1,000. Am I to be expected to allow that to pass? We can all say it was a mistake.

Mr. HOGAN:  I did not make the mistake.

Mr. BLYTHE: Information on Ernest Blythe  Zoom on Ernest Blythe  Somebody else made the mistake.

Mr. BOLAND:  I see. That establishes another good point.

Mr. HOGAN:  If the Deputy knew anything or had any touch with Tipperary he would know that it would be impossible to put up £200,000 worth of machinery in six months. I said, I think, £2,000 or £3,000. What really happened is this: I asked the representatives how much machinery was there. They said £3,000. I did not believe them. I believe they overstated the amount from the information I had. In my view it will be £1,000 or £2,000. I am saying that without having any definite knowledge. I believe that if they had £200,000 worth of machinery they would have more machinery than was in the whole of the Condensed Milk Company. The Deputy is not a farmer himself, but let me take one point he made. He said: “Why should not these people be allowed to do what they [1041] liked?” That is the very thing we set out to prevent people doing. Because the co-operative societies did what they liked they were landed into the mess that they were in in 1925. If you like you can drop the whole Co-operative Act and drop our whole policy, and leave the societies to do what they like without regulation of any kind. It was because the co-operative societies were allowed to do what they liked for 30 years that we were faced with the extremely serious situation that arose in 1925. The Deputy also asked: “Why should they not be allowed to continue the casein factory?” and Deputy de Valera made the same point. Is not the position this: that I should say to the Tipperary company: “Go on with the casein. It does not matter whether it is owned by a proprietary company or not, but go on with the casein. Meantime we will take any separated milk you hold?” or, alternatively, that I should say to them: “You will have to stop the casein and we will take your separated milk.” Is not that the suggestion put to me?

Mr. G. BOLAND: Information on Gerald Boland  Zoom on Gerald Boland  No. That is not the suggestion I made.

Mr. HOGAN:  That is really what it came to. I think the Deputy said that we were coercing the Tipperary company by saying “We will not take your separated milk in present circumstances.”

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  And “You shall not make casein.”

Mr. HOGAN:  “We will not take your separated milk and you shall not make casein.” What should I do? Let them make casein and allow this German firm to come in? This is the firm that said to me that it was their intention to carry on the same thing with other creameries as well, to put in their machinery in other creameries. They stated to me in writing that that was their intention. I will not do that. That would be a betrayal of the whole policy. Deputies ought to have the decency to stand up and say, “We are against the whole policy, and against all proprietary concerns coming in.” I can understand that, but I do not appreciate people who say, “We are in [1042] favour of the policy,” and who now want to allow an outside firm to come in and establish this factory. I must say to them, “You must stop casein and cut your connection with this German firm. You have got your 2,000 or 3,000 gallons of milk. You are not to be asked to pay a penny for it. You are not to be asked to sign an agreement, but we are to take your milk.” What position am I in vis-a-vis every other creamery in the country if I do that? Every other creamery signs. They ve agreed to pay. They will try to y, but I am to say to Tipperary: Merely because you kicked up a row we will not allow you to make casein. Nevertheless, we will take your separated milk.” If I do take up that position, what position am I in versus every other creamery in the country? I do not care how much German, English or French money comes in. The more that comes in the better I like it. I hoped—and I thought I would have secured the support of the Fianna Fáil party in this matter—to transefr complete control of the industry to the people of the country themselves. There are a great many industries we cannot hope to transfer to the people themselves, but here is one. Here when we make an attempt to transfer the control of a very important industry to the farmer I have been put in the dock and cavilled at simply because we prevented a German firm from coming in. I am not going to argue the question any more.

Mr. BOLAND:  The Chairman and Secretary said it was not a German factory.

Mr. CARNEY: Information on Frank Carney  Zoom on Frank Carney  Was the firm registered here?

Mr. HOGAN:  I do not know.

Mr. CARNEY: Information on Frank Carney  Zoom on Frank Carney  You should ask the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Mr. HOGAN:  This has really been one of the most futile and disgusting debates that I ever listened to. I would not mind if Deputies opposite stated that they were opposed to my policy. But how in the name of God are we to carry out a big policy in the country with futile arguments of this sort going on?

[1043]Mr. BOLAND:  The Minister said: “I have proved that this machinery is not the property of the Tipperary company at all,” but he has put forward nothing to prove that. It is not fair to suggest that when we look for proof of his statement that our statements are mere futility. If it can be proved that it is German property I certainly would be against it. We had the statements of the chairman and secretary that the machinery is theirs. We think that their statements are a sufficient argument, at all events, to have the question arbitrated.

Mr. HOGAN:  Supposing the machinery was theirs? There are people who will only believe what they want to believe.

Mr. BOLAND:  I am not one of them.

Mr. HOGAN:  Perhaps there are people prejudiced in spite of themselves. They are prepared to believe anything in face of this circumstantial evidence. Suppose the machinery was theirs, is it right that at this stage of a transition a creamery should be allowed to set up an opposition institution, a business that will be in direct opposition to another co-operative creamery? Remember, our policy is to organise the production of all milk products and to hand them over to the farmers themselves, who will be organised and co-ordinated. When that has been done, as I hope it will be in two years' time or so, then, as I have already explained, I want to get out of this. I do not want to carry on a commercial proposition. I have knowledge enough to know that no Department of State can carry on a commercial proposition. Therefore the sooner I am out of this the better I will like it. I do not want to remain one minute longer in this than it takes to organise the farmers themselves and hand it over to them. Then they can establish a casein factory or anything else they like.

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  What about their skim milk? Supposing the Minister had not one, but several other creameries in different parts of the country that did not come into this scheme, how would he deal with them?

[1044]Mr. HOGAN:  I would be in an awaful mess. When I was announcing our policy here, I stated that we were taking an awful risk in taking over a certain commercial transaction. I trusted to the good sense of the farmers of the country. They could have blackmailed me, but they did not. They acted extremely well all over the country. They knew that we had the company paid. I said to them that we came into it to take them out of a big difficulty, and that we wanted a fair deal with them. We got a fair deal from them. If they tried to make difficulties for us they could have done so, but they rose above that. What effect do you think a debate like this is going to have? Is it not an invitation to every society in the country to make trouble?

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  Not by any means. I think the Minister ought not to treat us here as if we were all children.

Mr. BOLAND:  That day is over for him. He has to listen now to what is said.

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  We here are interested in seeing that justice is done. If the Minister is getting power to carry out the scheme, then our endeavour is to see that it will be carried out equitably. That is what we are interested in. We have not dealt with the general policy involved, because we are in favour of it, but we do not believe that the Dáil ought to put in a clause in this Bill simply to strengthen the Minister's hands to do a certain thing. He admits himself that he is out in a trade war. We do not want to strengthen his hands against a rival. If you are going to compel the acquisition of creameries then you ought to do it in a proper way and not by a trade war. I asked the Minister: Suppose there were several creameries in the position of this Tipperary creamery, what would he have done? He says he would be in a terrible mess. He would either have to abandon the scheme or pass legislation to take him out of the mess. If he were prepared to go ahead with the scheme he would have to get the necessary legislation. He could not do it by a subterfuge clause of this kind.

[1045]Mr. HOGAN:  What is your alternative—arbitration?

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  Let the whole basis of your scheme be compulsory arbitration or not, you have gone a certain stage and now you want to bring in a penal clause to give them the opportunity of crushing them. We do not believe that is right and we are told that it can be done otherwise. There is involved here not merely the milk supply, but also the question of premises. We do not know definitely whether there is not a dispute as to the purchase price of the premises.

Mr. HOGAN:  I told the Deputy at least three times if they want to purchase them I will sell them; if they do not want to purchase them I will keep them.

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  That, again, is the bargaining attitude of the Minister.

Mr. HOGAN:  It is not.

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  You know you are in a position to crush this firm by means of this penal clause; you tell them again: “You can take it or leave it. We are strong enough to do without you or to crush you if you resist.” That is the attitude the Minister took up. That is the attitude he praised himself for—what a good bargainer he was. He did not want each creamery to know what position he was in when dealing with them. We take it that there was no general scheme of bargaining, but only everyone getting the best price he could. We understand. Here is a case where there is a dispute as to the prices. There is no use in telling the creamery they can carry on if you deprive them of the means of carrying on economically by depriving them of the particular output they have for their skimmed milk. You have not taken the skimmed milk for condensing purposes. They have nothing to do with it except they use this particular method. The Minister referred to the humbug of the argument Deputy Moore put up.

Mr. HOGAN:  I withdraw that. I am sorry for it and I will never do it again.

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  As to the position of this German company we are not [1046] convinced at all, as Deputy Boland stated. We have on different sides different statements made, and we are not convinced that there will not be injustice done. We have to look at this in good faith—that having nowhere in which they could dispose of the skimmed milk they set up a casein factory. You tell them to continue. Later you bring them under the Co-operative Act. Are you to prevent them from carrying on what may, as the Minister knows, be the general policy of the farmers as a whole? You are going to take up this position. It is possible that the farmers will take on, for instance, finding it more profitable, the manufacture of casein. Are you going to tell the pioneers they must stop? Would not their own interests be sufficient to deter them from going on? Are they, to use the Minister's phrase, going to cut their noses in order to spite their faces in this matter, in order to continue competing with the Minister in this trade war? I think in this particular case the Minister is going away from his whole policy. If the Minister said: “We are going to hand it over to the Tipperary Co-operative Company and make them work it,” or else said: “We are going to put them out of business altogether as a co-operative organisation; we are going to do with them what we did with the proprietary creameries,” it would be far fairer.

Mr. HOGAN:  Straighter.

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  Yes, straighter. When there is a question of crushing them at all you may as well do it in the light of day as by indirect methods. As far as I am concerned, I am not satisfied with the position outlined by the Minister, and we are voting against the section just because we feel it is a clause where the Minister is going to use his strength and power to crush out the co-operative company. It is not the case of an individual firm; it is a society of farmers that have turned to this particular way as being the most profitable for themselves, and if they are allowed to exist as a co-operative firm then they ought to be allowed to carry on the manufacture of whatever particular product pays them best. If [1047] you are going to bring in a law that there must not be any casein manufactured in this country, that is all very well. If you are going to bring in a law that they must not acquire machinery [1048] from abroad, or any other law, bring in that law. But do not try by means of a law like this, by means of a penal clause, to crush a competitor by refusing to take his condensed milk.

Question put.

Alton, Ernest Henry.
Anthony, Richard.
Beckett, James Walter.
Bennett, George Cecil.
Blythe, Ernest.
Bourke, Séamus A.
Brennan, Michael.
Brodrick, Seán.
Byrne, Alfred.
Byrne, John Joseph.
Carey, Edmund.
Cassidy, Archie J.
Clancy, Patrick.
Cole, John James.
Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
Colohan, Hugh.
Conlon, Martin.
Connolly, Michael P.
Cosgrave, William T.
Craig, Sir James.
Daly, John.
Davis, Michael.
De Loughrey, Peter.
Doherty, Eugene.
Dolan, James N.
Doyle, Peadar Seán.
Duggan, Edmund John.
Dwyer, James.
Egan, Barry M.
Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
Everett, James.
Fitzgerald, Desmond.
Good, John.
Hassett, John J.
Heffernan, Michael R.
Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
Hennessy, Thomas.
Hennigan, John.
Henry, Mark.
Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
Holohan, Richard.
Jordan, Michael.
Kelly, Patrick Michael.
Keogh, Myles.
Leonard, Patrick.
Lynch, Finian.
Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
McDonogh, Martin.
McFadden, Michael Og.
McGilligan, Patrick.
Mongan, Joseph W.
Morrissey, Daniel.
Mulcahy, Richard.
Murphy, James E.
Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
Nally, Martin Michael.
O'Connell, Richard.
O'Connell, Thomas J.
O'Connor, Bartholomew.
O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
O'Leary, Daniel.
O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
O'Reilly, John J.
O'Sullivan, Gearoid.
O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
Rice, Vincent.
Roddy, Martin.
Shaw, Patrick W.
Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
Thrift, William Edward.
Tierney, Michael.
Vaughan, Daniel.
Wolfe, George.
Wolfe, Jasper Travers.

Aiken, Frank.
Allen, Denis.
Blaney, Neal.
Boland, Gerald.
Boland, Patrick.
Brady, Seán.
Briscoe, Robert.
Buckley, Daniel.
Carney, Frank.
Carty, Frank.
Clorv, Michael.
Coburn, James.
Colbert, James.
Cooney, Eamon.
Corkery, Dan.
Crowley, Tadhg.
Derrig, Thomas.
De Valera, Eamon.
Fahy, Frank.
Fogarty, Andrew.
Gorry, Patrick J.
Hayes, Seán.
Holt, Samuel.
Houlihan, Patrick.
Jordan, Stephen.
Kent, William R.
Kerlin, Frank.
Killane, James Joseph.
Killilea, Mark.
Kilroy, Michael.
Lemass, Seán F.
Little, Patrick John.
Maguire, Ben.
McEllistrim, Thomas.
MacEntee, Seán.
Moore, Séamus.
O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
O'Reilly, Matthew.
Powell, Thomas P.
Ryan, James.
Sexton, Martin.
Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
Smith, Patrick.
Walsh, Richard.
Ward, Francis C.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Duggan and P. Doyle. Níl: Deputies G. Boland and Allen. Question declared carried.

[1049]Mr. HOGAN:  Amendment number 4 is the same as the other amendment.

It reads:

Section 14, sub-section (4). The following words added at the end of the sub-section:—“and also applies to any creamery the business of which was, on or after the 1st day of January, 1928, and before the passing of this Act, extended by the addition thereto of a class, branch, or department of creamery business not then carried on in such creamery.”

I move: That the Committee agree with the Seanad in this amendment.

Mr. DE VALERA: Information on Eamon de Valera  Zoom on Eamon de Valera  This amendment [1050] is even, of course, more directly dealing with the position in Tipperary than the first amendment. The important part of the first amendment was that it really meant that the Ministry was ultimately going to have control of the industry as a whole, prescribing what they might or might not manufacture. But this is directly aimed at this particular Company. As far as we are concerned, we want information, and the information given by the Minister so far was not satisfactory. If the Minister does not intend to give us more information we intend to oppose the amendment.

Question put.

Alton, Ernest Henry.
Anthony, Richard.
Beckett, James Walter.
Bennett, George Cecil.
Blythe, Ernest.
Bourke, Séamus A.
Brennan, Michael.
Brodrick, Seán.
Byrne, Alfred.
Byrne, John Joseph.
Carey, Edmund.
Cassidy, Archie J.
Clancy, Patrick.
Cole, John James.
Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
Colohan, Hugh.
Conlon, Martin.
Connolly, Michael P.
Cosgrave, William T.
Craig, Sir James.
Daly, John.
Davis, Michael.
De Loughrey, Peter.
Doherty, Eugene.
Dolan, James N.
Doyle, Peadar Seán.
Duggan, Edmund John.
Dwyer, James.
Egan, Barry M.
Esmond, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
Everett, James.
Fitzgerald, Desmond.
Good, John.
Haslett, Alexander.
Hassett, John J.
Heffernan, Michael R.
Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
Hennessy, Thomas.
Hennigan, John.
Henry, Mark.
Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
Holohan, Richard.
Jordan, Michael.
Kelly, Patrick Michael.
Keogh, Myles.
Leonard, Patrick.
Lynch, Finian.
Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
McDonogh, Martin.
McFadden, Michael Og.
McGilligan, Patrick.
Mongan, Joseph W.
Morrissey, Daniel.
Mulcahy, Richard.
Murphy, James E.
Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
Nally, Martin Michael.
O'Connell, Richard.
O'Connell, Thomas J.
O'Connor, Bartholomew.
O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
O'Leary, Daniel.
O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
O'Reilly, John J.
O'Sullivan, Gearoid.
O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
Rice, Vincent.
Roddy, Martin.
Shaw, Patrick W.
Sheehy, Timothy West Cork).
Thrift, William Edward.
Tierney, Michael.
Vaughan, Daniel.
Wolfe, George.
Wolfe, Jasper Travers.

Aiken, Frank.
Allen, Denis.
Blaney, Neal.
Boland, Gerald.
Boland, Patrick.
Brady, Seán.
Briscoe, Robert.
Buckley, Daniel.
Carney, Frank. [1051]Fahy, Frank.
Fogarty, Andrew.
Gorry, Patrick J.
Hayes, Seán.
Holt, Samuel.
Houlihan, Patrick.
Jordan, Stephen.
Kent, William R.
Kerlin, Frank.
Killane, James Joseph.
Killilea, Mark.
Kilroy, Michael.
Lemass, Seán F.
Little, Patrick John.
Carty, Frank.
Clery, Michael.
Coburn, James.
Colbert, James.
Cooney, Eamon.
Corkery, Dan.
Crowley, Tadhg.
Derrig, Thomas.
De Valera, Eamon. M[1052]aguire, Ben.
McEllistrim, Thomas.
MacEntee, Seán.
Moore, Séamus.
O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
O'Reilly, Matthew.
Powell, Thomas P.
Ryan, James.
Sexton, Martin.
Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
Smith, Patrick.
Walsh, Richard.
Ward, Francis C.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Duggan and P. Doyle. Níl: Deputies G. Boland and Allen.

Question declared carried.

Mr. HOGAN:  I move: That the Committee agree with the Seanad in the following amendments:—

Section 15, sub-section (1). The words “to which the provisions of this Act shall apply” deleted in lines 51-2 and the words “within the meaning of this Act” substituted therefor.

Section 15, sub-section (1). After the word “required” in line 53 the words “for the purposes of this Act” inserted.

The first of these is purely a drafting amendment. The draftsman prefers “within the meaning of this Act.” The other amendment is also purely a drafting one.

Question put and agreed to.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Reported: “That the Committee has considered the amendments made by the Seanad and agrees with all of them.”

Question—“That the Dáil agree with the Committee in their Report”— put and agreed to.


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