In Committee on Finance. - Vote 56—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).
I do not think the Bill is actually law yet.
But it is not law.
The Minister is not supposed to quote a Standing Order. He can raise a general question. Obviously, this matter has been discussed here and may be discussed again. However, it is a matter of policy...
No, we are not.
I will hear the Minister on the point he is making.
Would not that matter arise more appropriately on Vote 60—Unemployment Insurance?
The Deputy will have a chance of raising this matter on Vote 60.
Deputies must not advocate new legislation when debating the Estimates.
I do not want to interrupt the Deputy. Probably he is not going to go very far with this matter, but on the Estimates it is not permitted to advocate new legislation.
In Committee on Finance. - Vote 57—Railways.
The Minister has no responsibility in this matter.
In Committee on Finance. - Vote 60—Unemployment Insurance.
The Deputy could not go much farther as the Bill is not before us.
What I did say was that the matter which the Deputy was raising would seem to arise more appropriately on Vote 60. I think what the Minister is objecting to is the suggestion of amending legislation.
The Deputy is suggesting that the Act which is in operation here should be amended? Is not that so?
Of course that cannot arise on administration, which is what we are discussing.
There are several ways by which pressure can be brought on the Government to induce them—or to force them shall we say?—to bring in such an Act. That information will be given to the Deputy in the pr...
The Deputy is quite entitled to refer to the decision of the umpire, and to the matters which led up to the case being brought before the umpire, but to suggest that that section should be altered, an...
It is very adroit I admit, but there would be no point whatever in reading out a section of another Act unless the suggestion were that it should be adopted here.
I cannot see the point of it.
It is not necessary to tell Deputy McGilligan that the fact that it is legislation to remove a doubt does not make it any the less legislation.
The Deputy may refer to confusion that may arise from the phraseology of the section, but I cannot allow any Deputy to suggest that amending legislation should be introduced, or to indicate the lines ...
That is hypothetical.
I cannot see any point in quoting it.
I would have no difficulty in allowing Deputy Coburn, if Deputy Coburn were the only Deputy I had to deal with.
I have not said you may quote it.
Is it the section of an Act passed by the Oireachtas?
I have a good deal of sympathy with the Deputy, but the rules of the House are inexorable and I cannot allow him to deal with that.
In Committee on Finance. - Vote 1—Governor General's Establishment.
That is not a bit relevant to the Vote for the Governor-General.
The Deputy will deal with the Vote which is before the House and not with whatever happened previous to this in any Party that he belonged to.
The statement is a serious statement. The Deputy alleges that the President instructed or ordered him not to attend Mass while the——
—— Governor-General was present. The President said that statement is not true. I think, considering the seriousness of the statement, the Deputy ought to withdraw it, and to accept the President's ...
I distinctly heard the President say that the statement was untrue.
Let us be clear about it. I intervened in this because it concerns an officer of the State, and the dignity of this State. I did not want it to go abroad that there was any disrespect intended by th...
I am sure the Deputy will take my word that I heard it. I heard the President distinctly state that that statement was not correct. I intervened because I did not want the impression to go abroad th...
The Minister has raised a point of order.
I did not call on the Deputy to proceed. I asked him to withdraw the remark in consideration of the President's denial. I called on him to withdraw it, and I still expect him to withdraw the remark. ...
I heard the President on two occasions. I am nearer to the President's seat than the Deputies on the opposite side. I am sure the House will accept my statement that I heard the President on two occ...
The statement I heard was subsequent to Deputy Belton's remark, and I think, in consideration of that, that Deputy Belton ought to withdraw the remark.
Am I to take it that Deputy Belton withdraws the remark?
Am I to take it that the Deputy will withdraw the remark?
Let us be clear about this: either the Deputy accepts my statement that I heard the President categorically deny that he ordered Deputy Belton to remain away from Mass because the Governor-General was...
May we take it that the remark is withdrawn?
What is the use of saying that?
The Minister will have to conform to the rules of the House as well as any other Deputy. Deputy Belton withdrew the remark and the Minister for Finance has no right to say that Deputy Belton was tell...
The Minister said it was untrue.
He has not challenged the ruling of the Chair; he has challenged the accuracy of the remark I made. He says he did not say “it is untrue.” I understood him to say “It is untrue.” He now says his re...
The figures give the remuneration for certain offices.
Let us be clear about that. One cannot discuss every rumour one hears in connection with an Estimate. There are figures placed before us as to what the cost of the office is. We should discuss the ...
Who prevented anybody from going to the Rugby match? Let us get out of this rut and discuss the Governor-General's Vote. Whether he would or would not go to a Rugby match, there is no responsibility...
There is no responsibility in this House whether he goes to a Rugby match or a Gaelic match.
There is no responsibility on this House as to whether the Governor-General goes to a Gaelic match or to a Rugby match, and there is no use in discussing it when the House has no responsibility for it...
In Committee on Finance. - Vote 3—Department of the President of the Executive Council.
That does not arise on the Vote of the President, clearly.
It does not arise on this Vote if he held ten positions.
In Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Fisheries and Gaeltacht Services.
What year is the Minister speaking of?
Unfortunately, I have to take into consideration the financial year and we cannot go back any further.
The Minister will have to confine himself to the last financial year.
The Minister must confine himself to the administration of the Act within the year under review.
I have ruled clearly and definitely that the Minister must confine himself to the administration of the Act within the financial year under review. If the Minister persists, I will have to ask him to...
He is travelling back and pointing out how former Ministers misapplied, as he alleges, the money provided under the Estimate.
The Minister is entitled to review the Act only within the financial year.
I have no knowledge of what he did. I was not in the Chair when he spoke, but I have no doubt the rules of order were strictly enforced, whoever was in the Chair.
The Deputy is a bit previous in thinking that.
The Minister will justify it on the administration of the Act in the past year and not by contrast with anything else.
If the Minister persists, I will have to ask him to discontinue his speech. I have said definitely and ruled so. His speech will have to review this Act in the financial year just passed out.
Deputy Lynch will have to withdraw that statement.
Deputy Lynch will sit down, and so will Deputy O'Leary. It has been said that when Deputy Lynch was in office certain moneys that should have been paid to certain people were not paid to them. That w...
I do not think that statement was made.
The statement was that the Deputy gave preference to political supporters of his own.
Such statements have been made repeatedly here.
Deputy Lynch must withdraw the remark he made with regard to the Minister.
I have already told the Minister that he must discuss the Estimate and the administration of the Act within the financial year under review. Did this incident take place within the year under review?
The Minister must confine himself to the administration of the Act in the year under review or sit down.
The Minister has definitely stated that political preference was shown by Deputy Lynch when he was in office. Surely that did not take place in the year under review. The Minister will confine himsel...
I am not going to give any judgment in advance.
Would the Deputy point out where he is doing so.
The Minister is referring to one particular case which has not been disposed of and the reasons why it cannot be disposed of.
What about the Estimate?
The Deputy so far has not proceeded to discuss the price of cattle.
The Deputy has not said one word about the price of cattle so far. He says that the people in the Gaeltacht are suffering more than the people in any other district. Surely I must give the Deputy an...
Deputy Smith cannot challenge the ruling of the Chair, even by implication.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary responsible for the price of cattle in the Gaeltacht? Has he anything to do with it?
We have had the economic war, and the price of cattle on various Estimates. The Parliamentary Secretary answering for this Vote is responsible for certain things in this Estimate. I cannot allow the...
In Committee on Finance. - Vote 7—Old Age Pensions.
It is not in order. It is advocating new legislation.
Deputy Morrissey suggested that there were people getting old age pensions who were not entitled to them within the terms of the present legislation. Deputy Moore has suggested that everybody who reac...
How can everybody, irrespective of their means, get an old age pension if there is a means qualification in the present legislation?
This is clearly indicating new legislation. If I allow Deputy Moore to proceed I must allow every Deputy in the House to deal with the matter in that fashion.
What is the idea of asking the Minister to say what would be the cost of it if we are not discussing its possibility?
Then the Deputy is suggesting it?
The Minister to conclude.
In Committee on Finance. - Vote 70—Export Bounties and Subsidies.