Dillon, James MatthewTuesday, 8 June 1937 |
Dáil Éireann Debate
Page of 31
|
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Sale of Turf.
Can the Minister state whether it is true that it is highly problematical that there will be any supplies of turf available for sale in view of the fact that, due to the mishandling of the bogs that w...
You have notice of it now. You might come down and inspect the turf.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Army Pensions in County Donegal and County Monaghan.
asked the Minister for Defence if he will state the names of recipients of army pensions under the Army Pensions Act, 1932, in (1) County Donegal, and (2) County Monaghan.
Perhaps the Deputy would be good enough to be as diligent as I have been, and put down a question. If he is a perpetual dummy in the House he cannot expect to get the information.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - School Meal Hours.
asked the Minister for Education whether he will consider recommending to the managers of national schools in urban areas to give the children a luncheon interval of 1½ hours during which they might g...
Arising out of the Minister's reply, if information were placed at his disposal in regard to any particular school that the manager and the vast majority of the parents desired the extension suggested...
Perhaps the Minister misunderstood my question. I said that if a group of interested persons brought to the Minister evidence that the manager and the majority of the parents were anxious that this 1...
But the Minister did not answer me at all.
Public Business. - Court Officers (Amendment) Bill, 1937—Committee.
I take it that the Minister is quite satisfied in his mind that this cannot react unfavourably on litigants?
This amendment would appear to suggest that, if a district justice held a special court to deal with a special criminal charge at a special venue, he might then go on to deal with civil business.
At present district justices do take civil and criminal business on the same day?
The purpose, then, of this amending Bill is to give him, explicitly, that power?
But, further, to restrain him from taking any business of which litigants have not had any further notice?
The Minister is satisfied as to that?
I presume that this is consequential on the other amendment?
Public Business. - Pigs and Bacon Bill, 1937—Committee (Resumed).
I think, Sir, that, when progress was reported on the last occasion, we were in the middle of a discussion on amendment No. 9, and I think that, at the conclusion of the discussion, the Minister had j...
I do not think it was disposed of. However, in connection with this, an interesting point has arisen. As I was saying, Sir, at the conclusion of the discussion on the last occasion, the Minister anno...
I think, Sir, that I can make my point in connection with this section anyway.
Well, I wish to follow whatever you, Sir, suggest is the proper procedure.
The allocation of which quota?
Well, Sir, the point to which I was going to refer a moment ago is peculiarly apt in this connection. As I was saying, the Minister, at the conclusion of the discussion on amendment No. 9 on the last ...
Could we not devise a plan whereunder a person who received an export allocation below a certain minimum figure would have the option to reject it in any given period?
That is the question. I quite see that where you are dealing with a large exporter who makes a very material contribution to the full export quota, you could not allow him to withdraw from his commit...
Quite.
The small curer has also to get a home-sales quota. There is no production unless he can get a home-sales quota of 300 pigs per month. Is that not so?
He must get a home-sales quota and sell the remainder at home? But suppose you take a man who heretofore has applied for a small export quota under the other Act—not under the Pigs and Bacon Act at a...
I understand from the Minister that he is in general agreement with me that, having given the small man a guaranteed production quota of 300 pigs, he feels that where they prefer to operate on the hom...
Does Section 29, in fact, alter the existing procedure?
It means American bacon?
Unless he could wangle it some other way.
There is this difficulty; of course at certain periods of the year you can get an extraordinary price in New York for Irish bacon, and sometimes it becomes extremely profitable to sell it there. But ...
When we have divided up the visible supplies of pigs between the British market and the home market, the proposal here is that we assume there is a surplus of pigs, and allow that surplus to be cured ...
The whole theory underlying this Bill is that we first contemplate the visible supply of pigs. We subtract that from the British quota. Is not that so? The balance is for home sales and external sal...
The Deputy does not quite follow the situation. What might happen is that for three months it might be immensely profitable to land bacon in New York. An intelligent forecast of that situation, by ...
No.
The Deputy does not understand it. It is not the manufacturer who will quarrel with his wholesale customer. He will not ask the Minister to transfer part of the home sales quota over to the external...
I should like to direct Deputy Moore's attention particularly to this. Does the Minister realise what an astonishing vindication of his predecessor's policy he has now announced?
It is this interesting fact—that we are coming to the point when we can make a great fortune for our pig producers by exporting Irish bacon at fancy prices. There does come a time when you have to ma...
Because it is an Irish bacon market we are supplying. We are driven eventually to the point of saying: shall we reject our foreign markets and restrict the production of our farmers? Shall we forbid...
What are we going to do when working the external sales quota? There is a British quota and a home quota and the external sales quota. What are we going to do? We must face the question. Whose bacon...
Most emphatically they are our people. I earnestly hope and pray of Deputies in Deputy Mrs. Concannon's Party to recognise that they are and realise that it serves no purpose to be continuously twist...
——as an English, Welsh or Scotch pig. I do not expect Deputy Mrs. Concannon's tender heart to allow dry-as-dust economics to affect her in this matter, but I beg her not to introduce sentiment into t...
The Deputy has slept peacefully in this House since three o'clock, and I suggest that he ought to go back to sleep until he is called upon to make a useful intervention in debate. At the present mome...
If we foresaw a steadily expanding market, yes.
Because if you bring in pigs, the tendency will be to prevent our people producing pigs hereafter. I would sooner bring in as much bacon as the consumers would want from time to time, and, by propaga...
Because it is calculated to standardise production. If the supplies forthcoming are not equal to the demand, I would much prefer that the bacon would come into the vacuum created so that the bacon cu...
Does the Deputy think so? I will discuss Partition with Deputy Mrs. Concannon on another occasion. Much as I would like to discuss Partition now, I do not think the patience of the House or of the C...
Will Deputy Donnelly answer this question: Does he stand for the importation of pigs?
Deputy Donnelly avoids my question. Does Deputy Donnelly think that we are to go out and import cheap pigs from Fermanagh in order to beat down the prices of pigs produced in Deputy Smith's constitue...
I notice Deputy Smith is keeping his eagle eye on this question. But I do not think he will say that these cheap Tyrone or Fermanagh pigs should be imported into Cavan.
No, because not one single ounce of bacon would come in until every pound of bacon produced from Irish pigs had been disposed of.
Precisely, but I would sooner see neither come in if we had enough bacon to meet everybody, but if either is to come in let the bacon come in. If anything is to come in it should be the bacon. That...
Not necessarily.
It is quite true. I sold seven pigs in Ballaghaderreen recently and I got 82/- a cwt. for them——
If a man offers me 82/- a cwt. for pigs, I will accept that price. I am not bound by law to take less.
I know this: that I got 82/- a cwt. for them in Ballaghaderreen, but I know that the day the Lisburn pigs crossed the Border, down went the price of pigs by 15/- a cwt.
I have said that I got 82/- a cwt. for bacon pigs in Ballaghaderreen. The Minister says that the man who paid that price broke the law. The fixed price that day, I think, was 73/- or 75/- a cwt., deli...
I thought the Deputy would say that. Now, my pigs were brought to some factory and converted into bacon. Half that bacon was sent to Liverpool and it was sold to the English consumer at 83/- a cwt. ...
Not at all. That is not the point. Poor Deputy Donnelly paid a tax of 4d. a lb. on his rasher of bacon this morning and the same bacon is being sold in England at 1/- a lb. even after paying the exp...
That was drawn out of me.
I am not referring to that.
Does the Minister deny that the current price in Liverpool is 83/- a cwt.?
Is not 83/- a cwt. the price of bacon in Liverpool?
Why does the Minister want to put a penalty on people for failure to export bacon up to the amount of the external-sales sub-quota? Why should there be a penalty for a failure of that kind? I can und...
Why?
You cannot take the market from me unless there is a quota. Suppose I apply for a licence to export to an external market, the Minister does not inquire to whom I am going to send the bacon. All he...
Yes, or any other way. The point is, why should you impose a penalty on a man for not filling a quota? The failure to fill it hurts no one but himself.
He cannot sell unless in the external market.
Of course, if the Minister says it is impossible to enforce the law, I understand what his position is; but it ought not to be.
We are getting into a dangerous field here. You are now endeavouring to regulate the entire export trade and restrict our producers from competition. You may think it the right thing to do, but othe...
I believe you will have to amend that. I have seen cases where men exported bacon to New York and they found that the bacon got knocked about so much that they had to tell the consignee that they cou...
I do not believe in putting things into the statute law which you do not intend to enforce.
Where there is a reasonable reason, neither the board nor the Minister will institute a prosecution?
What is the significance of deleting the words “by order”?
Would that be conclusive evidence of these profits?
The average profit of all the factories and not the average profit of the factory which has elected not to go on?
This section relates solely to those minor curers who elect not to bring their premises up to the requirements of the legislation and, accordingly, to withdraw from business?
Who did not elect to expand up to the qualification level?
I want to be quite clear that what the chairman of the board will certify is not to be taken finally as evidence of the actual profits made by a retiring concern.
All he can certify, for the guidance of the arbitrator, is that the average profit made by all the curers of Ireland, large and small, was so much?
It is purely an item of information for the arbitrator?
I think “any expenses” is the usual form.
I move amendment No. 31:— Before Section 37 to insert a new section as follows:— (1) Any licensee may with the consent of the Minister sell or otherwise convey his licence to another licensee. (2) No ...
——or discuss. However, I do not think the Rules of Order prevent those who have the amendments before them reading it secretly, provided they do not utter the sacrilegious words which my proposed ame...
I can say all that on the section. I can advocate a public charge but I cannot move for a public charge. No monopoly will be tolerated and, whatever Government is in office, it should be understood ...
The Minister is quite mistaken in imagining that the danger I envisage could not arise. Suppose a large curer buys the premises and business of a small curer, as he will be under this Bill—a man who...
And the name?
Suppose William Smith and Son are doing 1,000 pigs a week at Tralee and they buy out Henry Brown and Son, who are operating in a neighbouring town. They paint out the name of Henry Brown and put up t...
What is to prevent them?
If the Minister makes that positive statement, and says it is correct, of course I accept it, but it astonishes me to learn that, in pursuit of an agreement between two factories, part of the actual p...
I think it has been done.
I invited the Minister to look into it because I believed it had been done, and it was because I thought it was going to be done to a greater extent in the future that I pressed the amendment. But, l...
I am informed that under the Principal Act there is a restriction on the Minister's power to issue new licences.
If you put in an amendment restricting the application of this to the case of the small curer who is really, in fact, in the position of the minor curer—that is, one who is fit, technically to qualify...
And the Minister will bring in an amendment on the Report Stage to limit the time?
Well, then, I withdraw my amendment.
The factories that are analogous to the fellow who cannot bring his factory under the required conditions. Amendment No. 31, by leave, withdrawn. Section 37 agreed to. SECTION 38.
I take it that Section 38 will have the same restrictive application as Section 37?
I wish, Sir, to withdraw amendment No. 33, to insert a new section before Section 40. It may be introduced on the Report Stage, but I should like to hear what the Minister has to say on the general q...
No. I propose to raise the principle contained in the amendment on the section, because it may be that the Minister and ourselves are at one on it. I am withdrawing the amendment in Deputy McGilliga...
Well, I do not want, to precipitate a split in the Fianna Fáil Party and I think that, by a little tactful argument on the section itself, we might be able to arrive at a substantial agreement. If we...
My understanding of the Minister's proposal is that we might make a new category?
Well, this amendment is designed principally to provide representation for the minor curers who are going to qualify as small curers.
Well, you can do either of two things: You can raise the smaller class from one to two, or from two to three, and so on, as the case may be, on the Bacon Marketing Board, or you can say that it shall ...
Well, I would not be surprised if the Minister brought in an amendment designed to put these minor curers, who are to be small curers, in such a position as to have a representative for themselves on ...
No, he has not; but as we are discussing the matter generally, I think that my suggestion is not inconsistent with what the Minister suggests.
Would there be many amendments necessary in order to make a change such as this?
Will the Minister look into the matter with a view to increasing the representation of the small curers, if it is determined to lump them all together?
Well, then, I think, Sir, it is wiser to withdraw Deputy McGilligan's amendment, and when Deputy McGilligan has perused the report of what has just now passed it may be unnecessary to put down an ame...
On the section, Sir: this deals with the elections of curer members of the Pigs Marketing Board and the nomination of producer members of the said board. Now, I am in a difficulty, because the rules ...
I thought there were only two.
Many a man spoke over the wireless who knew damn little of what he was talking about.
Does Mr. Bergin feed any pigs?
Is he a considerable pig feeder?
Would be a very good man.
Quite.
Is the Minister satisfied that these men have defended the interests of the pig producers?
I think definitely they could pay more.
I might direct the attention of the Minister to the fact that there was a special section put into the Principal Act requiring the Pigs Marketing Board to have regard to the current cost of feeding st...
There was one occasion on which a producer member stated that they had not considered the cost of feeding stuffs.
There was a meeting of pig producers in this city, and two at least of the producer members of the board were present. One of them admitted that they had not considered the cost of feeding stuffs, an...
Very well. Sections 40 to 48, inclusive, agreed. SECTION 49. Question proposed: “That Section 49 stand part of the Bill.”
What exactly is the purpose of this power to exclude certain types of pigs?
They will not have power under this section to exclude a type of pig? For instance, they would not have power to exclude large Ulster Whites?
The section refers to pigs of a kind. I do not see why they should not announce that large Ulster White pigs are “of a kind”.
Would it not be better to put in there a saving clause that this power shall not be used to differentiate between breeds or types of pigs? Would not that be quite safe?
I take it that this is designed to deal with boars, old sows and injured pigs?
Then I cannot think of any other class of pigs except boars and sausage sows. Would the Minister alter the section to say that the board may exclude such types of pigs as the Minister may from time t...
Very well. The Minister will put in the words “with the Minister's approval,” and they will have to submit any exclusion to the Minister?
Is the Minister satisfied that in all factories grading is being properly done? There have been bitter complaints against certain factories in regard to grading pigs into a lower class than they prop...
Does the amendment operate to prohibit a licensed curer paying a price over the fixed price?
How?
Is this section designed to remedy the position of a man who is being pressed to take less than the fixed price for his pigs?
Hear, hear!
The only comment I have to make is that I do not see why the Minister does not avail of the machinery already there. This section is designed to achieve a very pious purpose but, at the same time, it...
They encouraged the people to sell them.
And what has occurred is that the poor man has not yet been paid for his eggs.
In the case of the chickens, they started off, went to Antwerp, and were eventually left at Folkestone. The Government is not equipped to carry on foreign trade. Why does the Government not use the p...
I do not. I am not personally acquainted with him.
Let us not name our supporters in this House because that would lead us farther astray than Claremorris and some of the embryos that Fianna Fáil gathered to their bosom there. I put it to the Ministe...
How long?
That is a confusion of terms, because they are entirely different classes of men.
Will the Minister go so far as to say that he will advise and encourage the employment of genuine pig dealers in so far as he can?
Both of us should be on the one word on that matter, and it is a valuable advance. Amendment agreed to. Section 61, as amended, agreed to. Section 62 agreed to.
This section does not mean that you cannot tender a pig to a factory? Does it mean that—unless it has been on the premises for four weeks?
The factory would be compelled to take any pig which has been in the possession of the person for four weeks?
I should like the Minister to tell us is it, or is it not, true that the hypothetical price fund is now being used largely to help the Exchequer to pay subsidies. The original purpose of the hypothet...
In fact, it has been largely used for subsidising exports of bacon to England when the bounty provided by the Exchequer did not equal the tariff paid on bacon. I submit that that was pure robbery of ...
The Minister tells us that £500,000 is gathered into the hypothetical price fund.
Who got it?
I wonder who got it? I was informed at one time that the Bacon Marketing Board disclaimed having collected more than £200,000.
It is well that Deputy Donnelly should know that his rasher of bacon has a levy on it every morning to compensate producers for their losses on the British market. I do not know the Deputy knew that...
Deputy Donnelly is neither wise nor relevant. It is well to realise that the exports are at present being subsidised out of the levy on bacon purchased by the Irish consumer. We are paying in rural ...
I have told the Minister again and again that with or without his knowledge the curers have formed themselves into a ring, and I now publicly allege that the Bacon Marketing Board sent to the minor cu...
To a minor curer, and I publicly allege that here now.
How can the Minister expect me to produce it? The Minister is in a position to get what I could not get. I cannot produce to the Minister written proof of all that is going on in the bacon industry...
What is the effect of Section 66? Is it to make the minor curers liable to levies during the specified period?
Is there not a case sub judice in which a minor curer is challenging the right of the Department to levy the hypothetical price on him?
Why is it put in here then?
I cannot imagine the draftsman bringing in a section identical with the section in the Principal Act.
This merely carries them on for the extra year?
This is the permanent structure which will take the place of certain parts of the other Act that lapse?
What is the effect of Section 68?
As a result of that, this section is designed to permit the board to pay out export subsidies?
No, they had not. Now you want to extend the opportunity of paying export bounties out of the hypothetical fund. I wonder does Deputy Smith know that the hypothetical price fund was being used to re...
Deputy Smith did not know that, and he was one of the Deputies who was on the Committee. We are actually now levying on the producer in order to sell cheap bacon to Britain.
The Minister, at the end of five years, has this to boast of— that he has reduced agriculture in this country to this situation that we have a shortage of pigs and butter, we have a scarcity of cattle...
It is true that you have a shortage of pigs because you are importing pigs from Ulster. It is the first time that that has happened since Saorstát Eireann was founded.
It is the first time we had to bring in live pigs from Ulster.
It is the first time in the history of this country. They are coming in now from Ulster because you have stripped this country of its pig population. There is a definite shortage of pigs here, and t...
You are not. There are 600,000 rotting in the graves that you dug for them.
In this Bill we are proposing to turn the hypothetical price, that Deputy Smith and I had a hand in devising, to another purpose altogether. We devised it for the purpose of securing for the farmers ...
You said they were paying 75/- in Northern Ireland for the pigs they were importing. The fixed maximum price in Northern Ireland is 62/-.
Where are the Northern Ireland farmers selling their bacon— in Peru?
Go fish! They are shipping more to England now than they ever shipped before. They have doubled the pig population of Northern Ireland while we have reduced ours almost to vanishing point. Do you de...
The Minister is prepared, apparently, to argue that two and two make five, or that four times three make 21. A minute ago he was arguing that the British market was a rotten market for bacon, that th...
You can tell that to the marines. I shall divide on this section, as it is the section under which it is proposed to misappropriate the hypothetical price fund.
Amendment No. 41 to Section 69, in the name of Deputy McGilligan, is another of those amendments which had best be put back to Report Stage until the Minister produces his amendment, when the matter c...
Are you meeting next week?
Surely the Executive Council should know whether we are going to dissolve this week or not?
Unless it will compel you to defer the dissolution, I should prefer to have the Report Stage on Tuesday next.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 66—Army Pensions.
Could the Minister tell me whether, under the various Acts under which this money is being distributed, a case of this kind is covered —a man who fought in 1916 and who, as a result of sickness obviou...
Committee on Finance. - Vote 73—Grant to ex-Governor-General.
Would the Minister vouchsafe us any explanation of why it is deemed desirable to give Mr. Buckley £2,000 as a present? I can understand the pension; I can understand paying the debts contracted durin...
The amount of the grant is for the house and furniture, with debts paid, and a permanent pension?
It is on a noble scale. Question put and agreed to. Estimate reported and agreed to. The Dáil adjourned at 6.45 p.m., until Wednesday, the 9th June, at 3 p.m.
| Last Updated: 17/05/2011 10:42:35 |
Page of 31
|