Dillon, James Matthew

Tuesday, 8 June 1937

Dáil Éireann Debate
Vol. 68 No. 1

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Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Sale of Turf.

Can the Minister state whether it is true that it is highly problematical that there will be any supplies of turf available for sale in view of the fact that, due to the mishandling of the bogs that w...More Button

You have notice of it now. You might come down and inspect the turf.More Button

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Army Pensions in County Donegal and County Monaghan.

asked the Minister for Defence if he will state the names of recipients of army pensions under the Army Pensions Act, 1932, in (1) County Donegal, and (2) County Monaghan.More Button

Perhaps the Deputy would be good enough to be as diligent as I have been, and put down a question. If he is a perpetual dummy in the House he cannot expect to get the information.More Button

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - School Meal Hours.

asked the Minister for Education whether he will consider recommending to the managers of national schools in urban areas to give the children a luncheon interval of 1½ hours during which they might g...More Button

Arising out of the Minister's reply, if information were placed at his disposal in regard to any particular school that the manager and the vast majority of the parents desired the extension suggested...More Button

Perhaps the Minister misunderstood my question. I said that if a group of interested persons brought to the Minister evidence that the manager and the majority of the parents were anxious that this 1...More Button

But the Minister did not answer me at all.More Button

Public Business. - Court Officers (Amendment) Bill, 1937—Committee.

I take it that the Minister is quite satisfied in his mind that this cannot react unfavourably on litigants?More Button

This amendment would appear to suggest that, if a district justice held a special court to deal with a special criminal charge at a special venue, he might then go on to deal with civil business.More Button

At present district justices do take civil and criminal business on the same day?More Button

The purpose, then, of this amending Bill is to give him, explicitly, that power?More Button

But, further, to restrain him from taking any business of which litigants have not had any further notice?More Button

The Minister is satisfied as to that?More Button

I presume that this is consequential on the other amendment?More Button

Public Business. - Pigs and Bacon Bill, 1937—Committee (Resumed).

I think, Sir, that, when progress was reported on the last occasion, we were in the middle of a discussion on amendment No. 9, and I think that, at the conclusion of the discussion, the Minister had j...More Button

I do not think it was disposed of. However, in connection with this, an interesting point has arisen. As I was saying, Sir, at the conclusion of the discussion on the last occasion, the Minister anno...More Button

I think, Sir, that I can make my point in connection with this section anyway.More Button

Well, I wish to follow whatever you, Sir, suggest is the proper procedure.More Button

The allocation of which quota?More Button

Well, Sir, the point to which I was going to refer a moment ago is peculiarly apt in this connection. As I was saying, the Minister, at the conclusion of the discussion on amendment No. 9 on the last ...More Button

Could we not devise a plan whereunder a person who received an export allocation below a certain minimum figure would have the option to reject it in any given period?More Button

That is the question. I quite see that where you are dealing with a large exporter who makes a very material contribution to the full export quota, you could not allow him to withdraw from his commit...More Button

Quite.More Button

The small curer has also to get a home-sales quota. There is no production unless he can get a home-sales quota of 300 pigs per month. Is that not so?More Button

He must get a home-sales quota and sell the remainder at home? But suppose you take a man who heretofore has applied for a small export quota under the other Act—not under the Pigs and Bacon Act at a...More Button

I understand from the Minister that he is in general agreement with me that, having given the small man a guaranteed production quota of 300 pigs, he feels that where they prefer to operate on the hom...More Button

Does Section 29, in fact, alter the existing procedure?More Button

It means American bacon?More Button

Unless he could wangle it some other way.More Button

There is this difficulty; of course at certain periods of the year you can get an extraordinary price in New York for Irish bacon, and sometimes it becomes extremely profitable to sell it there. But ...More Button

When we have divided up the visible supplies of pigs between the British market and the home market, the proposal here is that we assume there is a surplus of pigs, and allow that surplus to be cured ...More Button

The whole theory underlying this Bill is that we first contemplate the visible supply of pigs. We subtract that from the British quota. Is not that so? The balance is for home sales and external sal...More Button

The Deputy does not quite follow the situation. What might happen is that for three months it might be immensely profitable to land bacon in New York. An intelligent forecast of that situation, by ...More Button

No.More Button

The Deputy does not understand it. It is not the manufacturer who will quarrel with his wholesale customer. He will not ask the Minister to transfer part of the home sales quota over to the external...More Button

I should like to direct Deputy Moore's attention particularly to this. Does the Minister realise what an astonishing vindication of his predecessor's policy he has now announced?More Button

It is this interesting fact—that we are coming to the point when we can make a great fortune for our pig producers by exporting Irish bacon at fancy prices. There does come a time when you have to ma...More Button

Because it is an Irish bacon market we are supplying. We are driven eventually to the point of saying: shall we reject our foreign markets and restrict the production of our farmers? Shall we forbid...More Button

What are we going to do when working the external sales quota? There is a British quota and a home quota and the external sales quota. What are we going to do? We must face the question. Whose bacon...More Button

Most emphatically they are our people. I earnestly hope and pray of Deputies in Deputy Mrs. Concannon's Party to recognise that they are and realise that it serves no purpose to be continuously twist...More Button

——as an English, Welsh or Scotch pig. I do not expect Deputy Mrs. Concannon's tender heart to allow dry-as-dust economics to affect her in this matter, but I beg her not to introduce sentiment into t...More Button

The Deputy has slept peacefully in this House since three o'clock, and I suggest that he ought to go back to sleep until he is called upon to make a useful intervention in debate. At the present mome...More Button

If we foresaw a steadily expanding market, yes.More Button

Because if you bring in pigs, the tendency will be to prevent our people producing pigs hereafter. I would sooner bring in as much bacon as the consumers would want from time to time, and, by propaga...More Button

Because it is calculated to standardise production. If the supplies forthcoming are not equal to the demand, I would much prefer that the bacon would come into the vacuum created so that the bacon cu...More Button

Does the Deputy think so? I will discuss Partition with Deputy Mrs. Concannon on another occasion. Much as I would like to discuss Partition now, I do not think the patience of the House or of the C...More Button

Will Deputy Donnelly answer this question: Does he stand for the importation of pigs?More Button

Deputy Donnelly avoids my question. Does Deputy Donnelly think that we are to go out and import cheap pigs from Fermanagh in order to beat down the prices of pigs produced in Deputy Smith's constitue...More Button

I notice Deputy Smith is keeping his eagle eye on this question. But I do not think he will say that these cheap Tyrone or Fermanagh pigs should be imported into Cavan.More Button

No, because not one single ounce of bacon would come in until every pound of bacon produced from Irish pigs had been disposed of.More Button

Precisely, but I would sooner see neither come in if we had enough bacon to meet everybody, but if either is to come in let the bacon come in. If anything is to come in it should be the bacon. That...More Button

Not necessarily.More Button

It is quite true. I sold seven pigs in Ballaghaderreen recently and I got 82/- a cwt. for them——More Button

If a man offers me 82/- a cwt. for pigs, I will accept that price. I am not bound by law to take less.More Button

I know this: that I got 82/- a cwt. for them in Ballaghaderreen, but I know that the day the Lisburn pigs crossed the Border, down went the price of pigs by 15/- a cwt.More Button

I have said that I got 82/- a cwt. for bacon pigs in Ballaghaderreen. The Minister says that the man who paid that price broke the law. The fixed price that day, I think, was 73/- or 75/- a cwt., deli...More Button

I thought the Deputy would say that. Now, my pigs were brought to some factory and converted into bacon. Half that bacon was sent to Liverpool and it was sold to the English consumer at 83/- a cwt. ...More Button

Not at all. That is not the point. Poor Deputy Donnelly paid a tax of 4d. a lb. on his rasher of bacon this morning and the same bacon is being sold in England at 1/- a lb. even after paying the exp...More Button

That was drawn out of me.More Button

I am not referring to that.More Button

Does the Minister deny that the current price in Liverpool is 83/- a cwt.?More Button

Is not 83/- a cwt. the price of bacon in Liverpool?More Button

Why does the Minister want to put a penalty on people for failure to export bacon up to the amount of the external-sales sub-quota? Why should there be a penalty for a failure of that kind? I can und...More Button

Why?More Button

You cannot take the market from me unless there is a quota. Suppose I apply for a licence to export to an external market, the Minister does not inquire to whom I am going to send the bacon. All he...More Button

Yes, or any other way. The point is, why should you impose a penalty on a man for not filling a quota? The failure to fill it hurts no one but himself.More Button

He cannot sell unless in the external market.More Button

Of course, if the Minister says it is impossible to enforce the law, I understand what his position is; but it ought not to be.More Button

We are getting into a dangerous field here. You are now endeavouring to regulate the entire export trade and restrict our producers from competition. You may think it the right thing to do, but othe...More Button

I believe you will have to amend that. I have seen cases where men exported bacon to New York and they found that the bacon got knocked about so much that they had to tell the consignee that they cou...More Button

I do not believe in putting things into the statute law which you do not intend to enforce.More Button

Where there is a reasonable reason, neither the board nor the Minister will institute a prosecution?More Button

What is the significance of deleting the words “by order”?More Button

Would that be conclusive evidence of these profits?More Button

The average profit of all the factories and not the average profit of the factory which has elected not to go on?More Button

This section relates solely to those minor curers who elect not to bring their premises up to the requirements of the legislation and, accordingly, to withdraw from business?More Button

Who did not elect to expand up to the qualification level?More Button

I want to be quite clear that what the chairman of the board will certify is not to be taken finally as evidence of the actual profits made by a retiring concern.More Button

All he can certify, for the guidance of the arbitrator, is that the average profit made by all the curers of Ireland, large and small, was so much?More Button

It is purely an item of information for the arbitrator?More Button

I think “any expenses” is the usual form.More Button

I move amendment No. 31:— Before Section 37 to insert a new section as follows:— (1) Any licensee may with the consent of the Minister sell or otherwise convey his licence to another licensee. (2) No ...More Button

——or discuss. However, I do not think the Rules of Order prevent those who have the amendments before them reading it secretly, provided they do not utter the sacrilegious words which my proposed ame...More Button

I can say all that on the section. I can advocate a public charge but I cannot move for a public charge. No monopoly will be tolerated and, whatever Government is in office, it should be understood ...More Button

The Minister is quite mistaken in imagining that the danger I envisage could not arise. Suppose a large curer buys the premises and business of a small curer, as he will be under this Bill—a man who...More Button

And the name?More Button

Suppose William Smith and Son are doing 1,000 pigs a week at Tralee and they buy out Henry Brown and Son, who are operating in a neighbouring town. They paint out the name of Henry Brown and put up t...More Button

What is to prevent them?More Button

If the Minister makes that positive statement, and says it is correct, of course I accept it, but it astonishes me to learn that, in pursuit of an agreement between two factories, part of the actual p...More Button

I think it has been done.More Button

I invited the Minister to look into it because I believed it had been done, and it was because I thought it was going to be done to a greater extent in the future that I pressed the amendment. But, l...More Button

I am informed that under the Principal Act there is a restriction on the Minister's power to issue new licences.More Button

If you put in an amendment restricting the application of this to the case of the small curer who is really, in fact, in the position of the minor curer—that is, one who is fit, technically to qualify...More Button

And the Minister will bring in an amendment on the Report Stage to limit the time?More Button

Well, then, I withdraw my amendment.More Button

The factories that are analogous to the fellow who cannot bring his factory under the required conditions. Amendment No. 31, by leave, withdrawn. Section 37 agreed to. SECTION 38.More Button

I take it that Section 38 will have the same restrictive application as Section 37?More Button

I wish, Sir, to withdraw amendment No. 33, to insert a new section before Section 40. It may be introduced on the Report Stage, but I should like to hear what the Minister has to say on the general q...More Button

No. I propose to raise the principle contained in the amendment on the section, because it may be that the Minister and ourselves are at one on it. I am withdrawing the amendment in Deputy McGilliga...More Button

Well, I do not want, to precipitate a split in the Fianna Fáil Party and I think that, by a little tactful argument on the section itself, we might be able to arrive at a substantial agreement. If we...More Button

My understanding of the Minister's proposal is that we might make a new category?More Button

Well, this amendment is designed principally to provide representation for the minor curers who are going to qualify as small curers.More Button

Well, you can do either of two things: You can raise the smaller class from one to two, or from two to three, and so on, as the case may be, on the Bacon Marketing Board, or you can say that it shall ...More Button

Well, I would not be surprised if the Minister brought in an amendment designed to put these minor curers, who are to be small curers, in such a position as to have a representative for themselves on ...More Button

No, he has not; but as we are discussing the matter generally, I think that my suggestion is not inconsistent with what the Minister suggests.More Button

Would there be many amendments necessary in order to make a change such as this?More Button

Will the Minister look into the matter with a view to increasing the representation of the small curers, if it is determined to lump them all together?More Button

Well, then, I think, Sir, it is wiser to withdraw Deputy McGilligan's amendment, and when Deputy McGilligan has perused the report of what has just now passed it may be unnecessary to put down an ame...More Button

On the section, Sir: this deals with the elections of curer members of the Pigs Marketing Board and the nomination of producer members of the said board. Now, I am in a difficulty, because the rules ...More Button

I thought there were only two.More Button

Many a man spoke over the wireless who knew damn little of what he was talking about.More Button

Does Mr. Bergin feed any pigs?More Button

Is he a considerable pig feeder?More Button

Would be a very good man.More Button

Quite.More Button

Is the Minister satisfied that these men have defended the interests of the pig producers?More Button

I think definitely they could pay more.More Button

I might direct the attention of the Minister to the fact that there was a special section put into the Principal Act requiring the Pigs Marketing Board to have regard to the current cost of feeding st...More Button

There was one occasion on which a producer member stated that they had not considered the cost of feeding stuffs.More Button

There was a meeting of pig producers in this city, and two at least of the producer members of the board were present. One of them admitted that they had not considered the cost of feeding stuffs, an...More Button

Very well. Sections 40 to 48, inclusive, agreed. SECTION 49. Question proposed: “That Section 49 stand part of the Bill.”More Button

What exactly is the purpose of this power to exclude certain types of pigs?More Button

They will not have power under this section to exclude a type of pig? For instance, they would not have power to exclude large Ulster Whites?More Button

The section refers to pigs of a kind. I do not see why they should not announce that large Ulster White pigs are “of a kind”.More Button

Would it not be better to put in there a saving clause that this power shall not be used to differentiate between breeds or types of pigs? Would not that be quite safe?More Button

I take it that this is designed to deal with boars, old sows and injured pigs?More Button

Then I cannot think of any other class of pigs except boars and sausage sows. Would the Minister alter the section to say that the board may exclude such types of pigs as the Minister may from time t...More Button

Very well. The Minister will put in the words “with the Minister's approval,” and they will have to submit any exclusion to the Minister?More Button

Is the Minister satisfied that in all factories grading is being properly done? There have been bitter complaints against certain factories in regard to grading pigs into a lower class than they prop...More Button

Does the amendment operate to prohibit a licensed curer paying a price over the fixed price?More Button

How?More Button

Is this section designed to remedy the position of a man who is being pressed to take less than the fixed price for his pigs?More Button

Hear, hear!More Button

The only comment I have to make is that I do not see why the Minister does not avail of the machinery already there. This section is designed to achieve a very pious purpose but, at the same time, it...More Button

They encouraged the people to sell them.More Button

And what has occurred is that the poor man has not yet been paid for his eggs.More Button

In the case of the chickens, they started off, went to Antwerp, and were eventually left at Folkestone. The Government is not equipped to carry on foreign trade. Why does the Government not use the p...More Button

I do not. I am not personally acquainted with him.More Button

Let us not name our supporters in this House because that would lead us farther astray than Claremorris and some of the embryos that Fianna Fáil gathered to their bosom there. I put it to the Ministe...More Button

How long?More Button

That is a confusion of terms, because they are entirely different classes of men.More Button

Will the Minister go so far as to say that he will advise and encourage the employment of genuine pig dealers in so far as he can?More Button

Both of us should be on the one word on that matter, and it is a valuable advance. Amendment agreed to. Section 61, as amended, agreed to. Section 62 agreed to.More Button

This section does not mean that you cannot tender a pig to a factory? Does it mean that—unless it has been on the premises for four weeks?More Button

The factory would be compelled to take any pig which has been in the possession of the person for four weeks?More Button

I should like the Minister to tell us is it, or is it not, true that the hypothetical price fund is now being used largely to help the Exchequer to pay subsidies. The original purpose of the hypothet...More Button

In fact, it has been largely used for subsidising exports of bacon to England when the bounty provided by the Exchequer did not equal the tariff paid on bacon. I submit that that was pure robbery of ...More Button

The Minister tells us that £500,000 is gathered into the hypothetical price fund.More Button

Who got it?More Button

I wonder who got it? I was informed at one time that the Bacon Marketing Board disclaimed having collected more than £200,000.More Button

It is well that Deputy Donnelly should know that his rasher of bacon has a levy on it every morning to compensate producers for their losses on the British market. I do not know the Deputy knew that...More Button

Deputy Donnelly is neither wise nor relevant. It is well to realise that the exports are at present being subsidised out of the levy on bacon purchased by the Irish consumer. We are paying in rural ...More Button

I have told the Minister again and again that with or without his knowledge the curers have formed themselves into a ring, and I now publicly allege that the Bacon Marketing Board sent to the minor cu...More Button

To a minor curer, and I publicly allege that here now.More Button

How can the Minister expect me to produce it? The Minister is in a position to get what I could not get. I cannot produce to the Minister written proof of all that is going on in the bacon industry...More Button

What is the effect of Section 66? Is it to make the minor curers liable to levies during the specified period?More Button

Is there not a case sub judice in which a minor curer is challenging the right of the Department to levy the hypothetical price on him?More Button

Why is it put in here then?More Button

I cannot imagine the draftsman bringing in a section identical with the section in the Principal Act.More Button

This merely carries them on for the extra year?More Button

This is the permanent structure which will take the place of certain parts of the other Act that lapse?More Button

What is the effect of Section 68?More Button

As a result of that, this section is designed to permit the board to pay out export subsidies?More Button

No, they had not. Now you want to extend the opportunity of paying export bounties out of the hypothetical fund. I wonder does Deputy Smith know that the hypothetical price fund was being used to re...More Button

Deputy Smith did not know that, and he was one of the Deputies who was on the Committee. We are actually now levying on the producer in order to sell cheap bacon to Britain.More Button

The Minister, at the end of five years, has this to boast of— that he has reduced agriculture in this country to this situation that we have a shortage of pigs and butter, we have a scarcity of cattle...More Button

It is true that you have a shortage of pigs because you are importing pigs from Ulster. It is the first time that that has happened since Saorstát Eireann was founded.More Button

It is the first time we had to bring in live pigs from Ulster.More Button

It is the first time in the history of this country. They are coming in now from Ulster because you have stripped this country of its pig population. There is a definite shortage of pigs here, and t...More Button

You are not. There are 600,000 rotting in the graves that you dug for them.More Button

In this Bill we are proposing to turn the hypothetical price, that Deputy Smith and I had a hand in devising, to another purpose altogether. We devised it for the purpose of securing for the farmers ...More Button

You said they were paying 75/- in Northern Ireland for the pigs they were importing. The fixed maximum price in Northern Ireland is 62/-.More Button

Where are the Northern Ireland farmers selling their bacon— in Peru?More Button

Go fish! They are shipping more to England now than they ever shipped before. They have doubled the pig population of Northern Ireland while we have reduced ours almost to vanishing point. Do you de...More Button

The Minister is prepared, apparently, to argue that two and two make five, or that four times three make 21. A minute ago he was arguing that the British market was a rotten market for bacon, that th...More Button

You can tell that to the marines. I shall divide on this section, as it is the section under which it is proposed to misappropriate the hypothetical price fund.More Button

Amendment No. 41 to Section 69, in the name of Deputy McGilligan, is another of those amendments which had best be put back to Report Stage until the Minister produces his amendment, when the matter c...More Button

Are you meeting next week?More Button

Surely the Executive Council should know whether we are going to dissolve this week or not?More Button

Unless it will compel you to defer the dissolution, I should prefer to have the Report Stage on Tuesday next.More Button

Committee on Finance. - Vote 66—Army Pensions.

Could the Minister tell me whether, under the various Acts under which this money is being distributed, a case of this kind is covered —a man who fought in 1916 and who, as a result of sickness obviou...More Button

Committee on Finance. - Vote 73—Grant to ex-Governor-General.

Would the Minister vouchsafe us any explanation of why it is deemed desirable to give Mr. Buckley £2,000 as a present? I can understand the pension; I can understand paying the debts contracted durin...More Button

The amount of the grant is for the house and furniture, with debts paid, and a permanent pension?More Button

It is on a noble scale. Question put and agreed to. Estimate reported and agreed to. The Dáil adjourned at 6.45 p.m., until Wednesday, the 9th June, at 3 p.m.More Button

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