Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph

Thursday, 14 March 1940

Dáil Éireann Debate
Vol. 79 No. 7

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Saint Laurence O'Toole Hospital Bill, 1940—First Stage.

I move: That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled “an Act to provide for the establishment, in or near the City of Dublin, of a new General Hospital, to be called the Saint Laurence O'Toole H...More Button

Public Hospitals (Amendment) Bill, 1940—First Stage.

I move: That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled “an Act to provide for the establishment by the Hospitals Commission of bureaus for obtaining and giving information as to the accommodation ...More Button

In about a week's time.More Button

County Management Bill, 1939—Committee (Resumed).

I agree with what Deputy Cosgrave said, that the responsibility is a big one. I also admit that this is an experiment. I believe it will work all right, but I cannot be absolutely certain that it wi...More Button

It is, I think, quite clear that the Bill must come into operation at the same time in all the counties. It is not an adoptive measure. You cannot bring it into operation in one county and omit to b...More Button

What I said in that connection referred to Greater Dublin.More Button

There would be a good deal of criticism as to the county you would try the Bill on if you were to bring it into operation in one county and not in another.More Button

Other counties might make the same offer, while others might disagree. When this Bill becomes an Act, it is proposed to ask the Local Appointments Commissioners to set up machinery for selection of c...More Button

The manager will be appointed on the recommendation of the Appointments Commissioners.More Button

It will be the same as any other appointment on the recommendation of the Appointments Commissioners.More Button

They may have the recommendation before them that day.More Button

There will be ample time for them to make preparations.More Button

Look at Section 4 (2): “Whenever an appointment is required to be made to the office of county manager for a county or to the offices of county manager for each of two grouped counties, the Minister s...More Button

It does cut across it.More Button

It would, so far as this appointment is concerned.More Button

It is.More Button

I know that so far as the procedure up to the present is concerned, it does cut across the Local Authorities Act. In the case of this particular appointment, this is the way the person is to be appoi...More Button

The section in the Local Employees Act, by the power taken in sub-section (1) of Section 4, is being repealed by the subsequent provisions of this measure. It is being repealed to the extent set out ...More Button

Yes.More Button

Sub-section (1) of Section 4, as the Deputy will see, says: “Subject to the subsequent provisions of this section”.More Button

Of course it does. The Local Employees Act is being amended here by sub-section (1) of Section 4. The latter sets out the way it is being amended.More Button

There are different ways of dealing with it.More Button

Not at all. Sub-section (1) of Section 4 sets out how Section 5 is being amended.More Button

If Deputies will turn to amendment No. 34, which is to be moved later by me, they will see that I am proposing to delete from the sub-section referred to the words “by the council of a county”, becaus...More Button

No, I cannot do that as it stands. That was the whole principle on the Second Reading, whether it should be applied to the whole country or not.More Button

What is the purpose of the amendment when you can bring it into operation on the one day?More Button

I can assure the Deputy that unless we are prepared to put it into operation in all the counties we will not do so.More Button

That will be a matter of administrative machinery. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Section 2 agreed to. SECTION 3. (1) There shall be in every county a county manager for such county who shall be cal...More Button

The title may not be palatable in some ways. I often thought that it was not, perhaps, the best one in the first instance. I have not succeeded in thinking of any other name. However, I do not think...More Button

I considered it before, and on thinking it over I can see nothing wrong with the name.More Button

In getting grouped counties we gave consideration to population and to the number of institutions in a county like Sligo-Leitrim, Tipperary North Riding and South Riding, Carlow-Kildare. If you compa...More Button

I have grouped them. There will be three in Cork and one in Tipperary. I put into the Bill where the assistant managers will be. On the Second Reading it was stated that we might have assistant man...More Button

I think it is the best way we can do it. We considered the population and the institutions, and where they were situated. Take Carlow and Kildare. The population is 92,334 and the valuation £503,67...More Button

Wicklow is 58,569. The valuation is £310,407. I think we might take a better example than Wicklow.More Button

Take Wexford. In Kildare and Carlow you have 92,344; Wexford, 94,245; Roscommon, 77,566; Monaghan, 61,289; Mayo, 161,349. As well as that, you have to consider a number of local public bodies in the...More Button

You can telephone him. He is bound to attend the meetings.More Button

There is no assistant manager considered necessary at present. It is not being put into the Bill. We put in the assistant manager where it was considered that an assistant manager would be necessary...More Button

I suppose this governs amendment No. 10?More Button

I do not suggest that at all. I am only saying that if I do not accept the amendment to divide these counties, we would have the same position with regard to the others. However, it is a different p...More Button

I move amendment No. 9:— Before sub-section (3), page 4, to insert a new sub-section as follows:— (3) The office of the Dublin City Manager and the office of Dublin County Manager shall always be hel...More Button

This is a grouping that on sentiment and every other ground seems to be warranted. You have a joint mental hospital and a joint library service, and you have what is known as one county, so that, if ...More Button

He spoke to me, and I told him that I thought I could not accept it.More Button

Is the Deputy aware that there was a debate on this matter in the House to-day?More Button

We have to remember that if there is an appointment in the case of Dublin County and the secretary there is appointed to the job of assistant manager, there may be a secretary needed for the county. ...More Button

They may have. I do not know how the work will be allocated.More Button

Certainly, it is a matter for him to allocate the work.More Button

No.More Button

All the appointments will be made on the recommendation of the Appointments Commissioners. Take the existing city manager. He becomes county manager. Take the man in Dun Laoghaire: He becomes assist...More Button

I do not know.More Button

I do not know. In a good many cases there are men over age. I do not know what way the Appointments Commissioners will approach this. I cannot anticipate what way they will approach it.More Button

They will certainly get the preference if they are suitable, but the Appointments Commissioners are to be the judges of that.More Button

I am not, yet.More Button

I would not say that.More Button

I do not think so.More Button

No.More Button

Supposing it did become necessary to appoint an assistant manager in the case referred to by the Deputy, that would not relieve the manager of his responsibility.More Button

That is so. I would remind the Deputy that there is no such thing as a deputy manager. I assume that if the manager were ill the assistant manager would act for him. With regard to the point raised ...More Button

By the assistant manager.More Button

The Assistant Manager would be in Dun Laoghaire, and I do not know what arrangements would be made, whether he would have an Assistant City Manager, or an Assistant Manager working from Dun Laoghaire....More Button

I will not deal with names.More Button

I do not know.More Button

I wish Deputies would get away from all this misrepresentation. This matter has been debated time and again and, on the last occasion the Bill was before the House, I indicated that there would be an...More Button

A re-allocation of duties.More Button

Yes, and I say that now.More Button

We want them to work in co-operation with the manager.More Button

No.More Button

It is not a fair way of debating it.More Button

I move:— 11. In sub-section (1), page 4, line 15, to delete the word and figure “Section 6” and substitute the words and figures “that Sections 6, 8, and 9”. Section 6 refers to the Local Authorities...More Button

No.More Button

The Local Appointments Commissioners make a recommendation on the application of the Minister. When they have made that recommendation, the Minister fixes the date on which the recommendation takes e...More Button

It is made on the recommendation of the Appointments Commissioners.More Button

They become appointed by virtue of the statute. That is the explanation.More Button

If I have any doubt on the matter I shall look it up between now and Report Stage.More Button

In the case of grouped counties, the Appointments Commissioners will recommend which of the two they deem more suitable.More Button

No.More Button

Very few assistant managers will be appointed.More Button

If the Deputy appreciated what is at the back of the preference, the matter might be easily explained. The object in giving a preference to county secretaries is to make for the smooth working of the...More Button

I think that it is reasonable to assume that.More Button

It is left in the hands of the Appointments Commissioners whether to go on these lines or otherwise.More Button

The two sections go together.More Button

Yes. Amendment agreed to. The following amendment was agreed to:— 12. In sub-section (2), page 4, line 22, after the word “select” to insert the words and brackets “(otherwise than by competitive exa...More Button

I am opposing this amendment.More Button

I do not think there would be any advantage in that even if I were to accept it. This is only intended to deal with the first managers. After we have dealt with the first managers it will be open for...More Button

That will have to be dealt with in another Bill. That will come under the Local Government Bill, which may have some provision to deal with all officials on the local bodies. I do not think there is...More Button

I think it would be undesirable in connection with positions of this sort. The secretary of a county council, whom I assume that Local Appointments Commissioners would accept, must certainly be someb...More Button

I am sure the county managers from time to time will have disagreeable duties to perform. They will have to see that those under them perform their duty. I do not think that would be a sufficient ar...More Button

I know that secretaries of boards of health have a large amount to do with the county councils, especially since the extension of the duties and powers of the boards of health. I think a good many of...More Button

Yes.More Button

If it is not a case of grouped counties.More Button

No. That is a matter for the manager himself, at least in this way. The secretary, when he becomes manager, can promote, just the same as a council can at present, under the Local Government (Employ...More Button

The only reason against that is that the manager, when appointed, is in control of the staff, and I do not want to put into the Bill anything that will control him in the appointment or the method of ...More Button

It is open to everybody to apply when a vacancy occurs after the first appointment.More Button

He would be a very senior clerk.More Button

He would not lose anything except in the way of prestige.More Button

I assume there will. That will be a matter that the county manager will himself arrange.More Button

I assume that is what would happen to him.More Button

I presume that is how it would work out, but I do not know how the manager would arrange his work.More Button

Two sets of officials are given preference under this Bill. In the first place, county secretaries are given preference. I think that that preference is, more or less, accepted now. In the second pl...More Button

Are not these boards, boards of public assistance?More Button

I understand they will. I understood they were boards of public assistance.More Button

There is nothing in the Bill.More Button

No.More Button

No, he will not.More Button

I hope we will get the best man anyway.More Button

As I stated earlier there may be a good deal to be said for what the Deputy mentioned, but what we are concerned about is to try to provide for the smooth change-over from the present system to the ma...More Button

I move amendment No. 22:— In sub-section (3), paragraph (c), page 4, to delete all from the word “a” in line 59 to the word “applies” in line 60 and substitute the words “the county secretary for the ...More Button

I move amendment No. 26:— Before sub-section (4), page 5, to insert a new sub-section as follows:—More Button

It is intended that the permanent manager shall enter on the office at the time that the Bill is brought into operation. It is not contemplated that any temporary manager will be appointed, but if su...More Button

I do not think amendment No. 27 would.More Button

The intention was that there should be no temporary appointment. But if some unforeseen circumstances arise I think it would be unwise to limit the period to four months.More Button

I think it is wrong that there should be temporary managers at all; it is not the intention to have them. But if some unforeseen circumstances arise by which there might be such delay, the council or...More Button

While it is not the intention to have temporary managers, circumstances might arise which would render such appointments necessary. It is the intention to bring this into operation on an appointed da...More Button

That was the time which it took—for what reason I do not know. While there would be no objection to accepting a four-month or six-month limitation, I cannot risk doing that in the case of a statutory...More Button

Of course they will —that is the intention.More Button

You do not want to tie yourself up like that.More Button

At the last moment a manager selected might die or be unable to act.More Button

I am afraid I have.More Button

As the Deputy knows all the appointments are to be made by the Appointments Commissioners. If this amendment were accepted it would cut across that whole system, —that is if the Minister were given th...More Button

In this Bill we give preference to a county secretary if he is suitable for the position of manager. In that way some indication is given to the Local Appointments Commissioners. I do not see how you ...More Button

The Deputy earlier wanted to have county surveyors considered. I cannot understand why this amendment is put in.More Button

I move amendment No. 31:— In sub-section (5), page 5, line 29, after the word “county” to insert in brackets the words “(including the county of Dublin)”, and, in line 34, after the word “section” to ...More Button

I move amendment No. 33:—More Button

There was a division on the principle of Greater Dublin already. Amendment put and declared carried. Question proposed: “That Section 4, as amended, stand part of the Bill.”More Button

I move amendment No. 34:— In sub-section (1), page 5, line 35, to delete the words “by the council of a county”, and in line 36 to delete the word “such” and substitute the word “a”. Amendment agreed ...More Button

The question of the age of county managers and the age of all officials of local bodies has been under consideration, and another Bill will be introduced, I hope, before the end of this Session which...More Button

I could not say so offhand. I have not examined the proposal fully yet.More Button

Certainly. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.More Button

I move amendment No. 36:— In sub-section (2), page 5, line 38, after the word “county” where it secondly occurs to insert in brackets the words “(other than the County of Dublin)” Amendment agreed to.More Button

If you were to give this power to county councils it would be after the councils were elected the salaries would be fixed.More Button

It is not fair to say that they will be nominees of the Department.More Button

Then it is a mistake to give them the power that the Deputy wants to give them.More Button

What about creating the chaos which he suggested? It is not fair to say that the nominees of the Department will be appointed to these positions. I do not think the Deputy could say that the county ...More Button

The proposal here follows what was in the previous Acts dealing with the city managers. In all similar Acts it is left to the Department to fix salaries.More Button

As to county secretaries, there is no point in giving preference to county secretaries. In the case of first appointments, where secretaries are suitable, the emoluments will not be less than for the...More Button

No.More Button

No. What would happen is that it would be referred to the Appointments Commissioners, and a line would be given that if a secretary of a county council or of a board of health was suitable one of the...More Button

No.More Button

Yes.More Button

No.More Button

The Deputy need not be asking me, because I have not considered what the salaries should be. I know that in some cases county secretaries have fees that bring their salaries up to a high figure. That...More Button

You will know all about it.More Button

I do not know if I made myself clear. So far as I can see, how it works out is this. If the Local Appointments Commissioners interview the secretary of the county council and the secretary of the b...More Button

Yes.More Button

No.More Button

I know that case.More Button

Yes, otherwise there is no point in giving him preference. Amendment put. The Committee divided: Tá, 12; Níl, 50. TáMore Button

I move amendment No. 39:— In page 5, to delete sub-section (3) and substitute a new sub-section as follows:— (3) Where the county manager for a county (other than the county of Dublin) or the city ma...More Button

I move amendment No. 40:— In page 5, to delete sub-section (4) —(Section 5). That is the same as the Schedule.More Button

Amendment No. 40 is consequential on amendment No. 39.More Button

That sub-section is unnecessary with amendment No. 39 there.More Button

Yes.More Button

These elective bodies, where they are not rating authorities, have no power to raise it themselves.More Button

I know the urban authorities have, but other elective bodies have not.More Button

It has been spread over the county as a county-at-large charge.More Button

Yes.More Button

The county will provide the money for him as a county-at-large charge but you have certain joint districts such as that at Grangegorman, portion of which goes into Wicklow. They will make a contributi...More Button

I will look into it before Report Stage. Amendment agreed to. Question put: “That Section 5, as amended, stand part of the Bill.” The Committee divided: Tá, 50; Níl, 12. TáMore Button

I move amendment No. 41:—More Button

I move amendment No. 45:— In page 6, to delete sub-section (1). This is a drafting amendment. Amendment agreed to.More Button

If reasons were to be given, it would lead to criticism, one way or the other, according to individual opinions. The Minister must be trusted to act properly, and it has not been the practice to stat...More Button

When a person is removed by sealed order, the reasons are not stated. A council may see what leads up to it very often, but, in the case of removal by sealed order, no reasons are stated.More Button

All these appointments come within the purview of the Department for Local Government and Public Health There is no question of stating reasons in these cases. The practice has been that, where somet...More Button

A man is removed for unfitness, and that is all that is stated in the sealed order, and that has been the procedure in connection with similar Bills previously.More Button

Does not the Deputy know perfectly well that the ordinary procedure follows, just as under similar Bills that have been passed within the last ten years? Why does the Deputy want to bring in anything...More Button

Are you going to put the city manager in a better position in this regard than other officers?More Button

Well, that is the present position—that you need not give reasons, and you can remove these officials by sealed order.More Button

It is not in the Bill or in any other Bill dealing with any other officials. It is the same procedure that has been followed in connection with every other Bill dealing with such officials.More Button

He would hold an inquiry.More Button

But they need not be stated.More Button

I cannot say how the work will be apportioned until I see the way the city manager proposes to do it.More Button

That is dealt with under the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act.More Button

No.More Button

There has been a lot of talk here which had nothing to do with the Bill. We are not taking any more powers to interfere with the manager than were taken in the Dublin City Management Bill and the oth...More Button

I claim that right. That has always been the law and Deputy Belton who talks so much now about democracy approved of it.More Button

It happened in 1926 and since.More Button

That is provided for. There must surely be an inquiry.More Button

He knows perfectly well with what he is charged. There is an inquiry. What I want to emphasise is that it is not necessary, and has not been the practice, to state in a sealed order anything more th...More Button

It might happen that, in the course of investigations by an auditor, certain things would come to light.More Button

There may be.More Button

No, the matter was started from the opposite side.More Button


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