Prelude
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Uachtaránacht Choláiste Ollsgoile Bhaile Atha Cliath.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - County Council Audits.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Inchigeela Water Supply.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Conditions of Employment Act.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - E.S.B. Superannuation Scheme.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Closing Hours for Shops.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Glandore Manganese Deposits.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Quarry Development Work.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Ram Lambs.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Remuneration of Land Commission Employees.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Scéim Imirce go Conndae na Midhe.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Central Marketing Depot.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Compensation for Reservist's Dependents.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Disability Pension.
Order of Business.
Committee on Finance. - Institute for Advanced Studies Bill, 1939—Money Resolution.
Committee on Finance. - Institute for Advanced Studies Bill, 1939—Committee.
Committee on Finance. - Estimates for Public Services.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Gaeltacht Services.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 58—Marine Service.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 61—Posts and Telegraphs.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 63—Army.
Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate.—Compensation for Reservist's Dependents.
Written Answers. - Housebreaking in Dublin.
Written Answers. - Military Pension Application.
[1329] Do chuaidh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar 3 p.m.
Mícheál Og Mac Pháidín: den Aire Oideachais an dtug sé fá deara nach nglacfadh lucht stiúrtha Choláiste Ollsgoile Bhaile Atha Cliath le rún á rádh gur mhaith an rud é Gaedhilg a bheith ag Uachtarán na Choláiste sin, toisc a thábhachtaighe atá an posta i gcúrsaí oideachais na hEireann; agus an dtabharfaidh an Riaghaltas isteach Bille a dhéanfas an Ghaedhilg chomh riachtanach fá choinne na hUachtaránachta san agus atá si fá choinne fostaíochta fá na hUdaráis Aitiúla sa Ghaeltacht.
An tAire Oideachais (An Taoiseach): Thugas tuairisc d'á leithéid faoi ndeara ins na nuachachtáin le deidheannaighe. D'fhéachas isteach sa scéal ó shoin agus do h-innsigheadh dhom go h-oifigiúil go raibh an tuairisc mí-cheart agus gur mar seo do tharlaigh.
Moladh rún ins na téarmaí seo leanas “Eolas oilte ar an nGaedhilg d'áireamh ar cháilidheachtaibh riachtanais Uachtaráin an Choláisde Ollscoile, B'l'a Cliath.” Do cinneadh an rún do bheith mío-órdúil do reir dlighe toisc é bheith bun-os-cionn le Reachtanna na h-Ollscoile agus nár mhór na Reachtanna do leasú sul a bhféadfaí an rún d'fheidhmiú. Ar choingheall nach mbéadh ann ach léiriú tuairimí an chruinnighthe, do cuireadh an rún ins na tearmaí céadna ó's a chomhair [1330] ach buadhadh air. Vótáil daréag i n-a choinne agus naonbhar i n-a fhábhar.
Tá súil agam go bhféachfa an Ollscoil agus Coláisdí na h-Ollscoile leis go ndéanfar pé leasú is gádh ar na Reachtanna.
Maidir le Bille do thabhairt os comhair na Dála le cáilidheacht riachtanach d'Uachtaráin na gColáisde do dheanamh dhe'n Ghaedhilg, do chuirfeadh a leithéid isteach ar an neamhspleadachas atá ag an Ollscoil agus ag na Coláisdí faoi lathair, rud nár chóir a dheanamh, ach amháin i gcás gan aon leigheas eile a bheith ar an sgéal.
Mr. Corish: asked the Minister for Local Government and Public Health if he will make a return giving the date when the last audit of accounts was held for each county council in Éire; the number of half-years' accounts dealt with, and the number of half-years' accounts that remain unaudited; and a similar return for each of the county boards of health, urban councils and town commissioners.
Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. Ruttledge): The information is being compiled and will be sent to the Deputy.
Tadhg O Murchadha: asked the Minister for Local Government and Public Health if he is aware of the present need for a suitable water supply in the village of Inchigeela, County Cork, and of the protracted delay that has already taken place in having the necessary steps taken to proceed with such a scheme; and if he will expedite sanction of the proposal for such a scheme now before his Department.
Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Dr. Ward): The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. There has been no avoidable delay in formulating or considering appropriate proposals in the [1331] matter since the scheme was first put forward in November, 1938. Approval is being given to the carrying out of the work as part of the current year's programme of public health works in South Cork.
Mr. Keyes: asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce if he will state what action by inspection or otherwise is taken by his Department to enforce compliance with the provisions of the Conditions of Employment Act; the number of cases in which he has authorised the taking of proceedings against employers who laid off workers so as to avoid allowing them holidays with pay; whether he is aware that an employee of the Great Southern Railways not then entitled to annual leave was laid off without pay during the week that his colleagues were on holidays in August last, and, if so, whether in this case any action will be taken.
Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. MacEntee): The Conditions of Employment Act, 1936, is enforced by factory inspectors appointed under the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, and the Holidays (Employees) Act, 1939, which amended certain provisions of the Conditions of Employment Act, 1936, is enforced by inspectors appointed under that Act. Proceedings have not been brought against any employer for failing to comply with the conditions as regards the granting of annual leave with pay as any complaints which were received could not be substantiated by the inspectors. Proceedings were instituted under the Conditions of Employment Act, 1936, against two employers for permitting an employee to do industrial work on a public holiday. In one case, the charge was dismissed and in the other the Probation of Offenders Act, 1907, was applied. I have no information that an employee of the Great Southern Railways was illegally deprived of his annual leave, but if the Deputy would send information to my Department inquiries will be made.
[1332]Mr. McCann: asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce whether he is aware that dissatisfaction with the Government exists amongst Electricity Supply Board employees, due to the withholding of sanction of the superannuation scheme, promised to employees and formulated in 1937; and, if so, if he will state when he will be in a position to make a comprehensive statement on the matter.
Mr. MacEntee: The position in regard to this matter is as stated in my replies to questions raised by Deputy Norton on the 8th November, 1939, and 19th March, 1940, to which I have nothing to add at present. The question of sanction to a superannuation scheme will not arise unless and until enabling legislation has been passed.
Mr. McCann: asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce whether it is his intention to make an order fixing compulsory closing hours for shops; and whether it is his intention to publish the findings of the inquiry in this connection presided over by Mr. Dermot Fawsitt, S.C.
Mr. MacEntee: Hours of Trading Orders have already been made in relation to (1) victuallers' shops situate in the County Borough of Dublin and (2) boot repairing shops situate in the County Borough of Dublin, the Borough of Dun Laoghaire and the Urban District of Bray. The report of Mr. D. Fawsitt, in regard to his public inquiry into hours of trading in the grocery trade in the County Borough of Dublin and the Borough of Dun Laoghaire is at present under examination, and I am not at this stage in a position to state what action, if any, will be taken on the report. A decision on the question of publication of the report will not be taken until the examination has been completed.
Tadhg O Murchadha: asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce if he [1333] will state what progress has been made with the examination of the manganese deposits near Glandore, County Cork, and if he will also state what the present position is.
Mr. MacEntee: A preliminary report has been received from the consulting engineers who were appointed to examine the mineral deposits near Glandore. From their preliminary investigation, the consultants think it unlikely that mineral deposits of much economic value lie in the neighbourhood, but I have not yet decided whether the investigation should be carried further.
Tadhg O Murchadha: asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce if he is aware that large numbers of men who formerly received regular employment in the Benduff and Madranna quarries have been discharged, and whether, in view of the acute unemployment prevailing in the district as a result of the discharge of the employees in question, he is prepared to reconsider previous applications for a grant from State funds to enable development work to take place at the quarries in question, with a view to permitting the re-employment of a number of the men discharged.
Mr. MacEntee: I am not satisfied that any new factors have arisen which would warrant a revision of the decision by my predecessor that grants out of Employment Schemes Vote moneys cannot be recommended for the quarries referred to.
Mr. Murphy: Would this be a new factor—that the quarry has completely closed within the past week and that about 70 men are now out of work?
Mr. Keating: asked the Minister for Agriculture if he is aware that under the new arrangements in Great Britain ram lambs which are intended for sale in the autumn will be regarded as rams, and will therefore fetch 7½d. a pound [1334] less than if they had been castrated; and if he will issue notices to the county committees of agriculture so that they may understand the position and advise sheep breeders to have their ram lambs castrated.
Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan): As announced in the Press of the 28th ultimo, the prices payable per lb. dressed carcase by the British Ministry of Food until further notice for rams fit for the retail meat trade imported from Éire are 7d. for shorn and 8d. for unshorn rams. I am aware that lambs showing male characteristics are liable to be classified as rams later in the year and paid for accordingly. As these characteristics become evident from the late summer onwards, sheep breeders would be well advised to castrate all male lambs not intended for the early lamb market or for breeding purposes. I propose, therefore, to draw the attention of breeders to the desirability of castrating ram lambs not intended for sale before the end of July and not being kept for breeding purposes.
Mr. Keyes: asked the Minister for Lands whether he is aware that employees of the Land Commission employed on the Taylor estate, Holly Park, County Limerick, and on the O'Donnell estate, Portnard, County Limerick, are paid at the rate of 27/- per week; whether undertakings were given formerly that the rate of wages for work of this character would not be less than the rate fixed by the Agricultural Wages Board, and whether he will take steps to bring the wages on both estates up to the level of the agricultural workers' rate in the district.
Minister for Lands (Mr. Derrig): The labourers employed by the Land Commission on the Taylor and O'Donnell estates, County Limerick, are paid at the rate of 27/- for a 48-hour week. This rate is in excess of the rate fixed by the Agricultural Wages Board for a 48-hour week.
[1335]Mr. Corish: Will the Minister say why, in some counties, Land Commission workers are permitted to work only 40 hours, with a resulting cut in wages?
Mr. Derrig: The question put by Deputy Corish is not really a supplementary question.
Cormac Ua Breisleáin: den Aire Tailte an bhfuair sé aon iarrataisí ó theaghlaigh i nGaedhealtacht Thírchonaill atá leighte feidhm a bhaint as an scéim imirce go Conndae na Midhe agus an bhfuil an tAire fá choimne glacadh le hiarrathóirí as Tírchonaill ins an scéim imirce seo.
Tomás O Deirg: Fuarthas seacht n-iarratas déag faoi'n Scéim imirce ó thionóbtaí i nGaedhealtacht Thírchonaill. Tá Coimisiún na Talmhan tar éis ceithre cinn acu sin a mholadh le haghaidh imirce chómh luath is bhéas gabháltais feileamhnacha le fagháil dóibh i gConndaethe lár na hEireann. Déanfar na hiarrataisí eile a bhreithniú go luath.
Mr. Dockrell: asked the Minister for Lands if he will state what was the amount of stock on hands at the Central Marketing Depôt, Gaeltacht Services, as on (a) the 31st March, 1940; (b) the 31st March, 1939.
Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for Lands (Mr. O'Grady): The stock on hands at the Central Marketing Depôt on the 31st March, 1939, amounted to £13,453; the stock on hands on the 31st March, 1940, has been enumerated, but has yet to be priced and extended.
Mr. Dillon: When the stock is being priced and extended, may we take it that it will be priced at cost or current market value, whichever is the lower?
Mr. O'Grady: That is the usual practice.
[1336]General MacEoin: asked the Minister for Defence if he is aware that a coroner's jury found that Reservist Thomas O'Grady (No. 38338) died from cardiac syncope due to haemorrhage from a rupture of the heart which occurred in the course of his duty; that the duty mentioned was pushing a heavily laden handcart which overturned, striking O'Grady and causing the rupture; that O'Grady leaves a widow and eight children, and, if so, if the Minister will say what amount of compensation or pension for his widow and orphans he proposes to pay.
Minister for Defence (Mr. Traynor): The answer to the first part of the Deputy's question is in the affirmative.
I am not aware that the overturning of the handcart mentioned in the Deputy's question caused the injury stated. A court of inquiry which investigated the circumstances surrounding the occurrence found that death followed over-exertion in the course of duty and did not result from an injury. The medical evidence adduced at the inquiry showed that the late Reservist O'Grady's heart muscle was diseased, apparently from a previous serious illness.
No provision exists in either the Army Pensions Acts or the Defence Forces (Pensions) Scheme for the payment of a pension or compensation in such circumstances.
General MacEoin: Is the Minister aware that, following the medical testimony at the coroner's inquest, the verdict found by the jury was that the deceased died from cardiac syncope due to hæmorrhage from a rupture of the heart which occurred in the course of his duty? Is he aware that a Volunteer of the Defence Forces swore that they were moving quickly at the time and the cart overturned? It struck a lump in the ground, swerved and then turned over and the handle struck the deceased, knocking him down. Is the Minister aware of these facts? Under what circumstances can a court of inquiry decide [1337] that the coroner's inquest verdict is wrong—that the decision given there is wrong?
Mr. Traynor: According to the evidence at the court of inquiry, the handle of the cart did not strike the deceased. I have no means at my disposal whereby I can provide a gratuity or pension.
General MacEoin: A commandant of the Army Medical Service gave evidence before the coroner's court. He said there were extensive injuries.
Mr. Traynor: That is not the evidence that was given before the court of inquiry; it is not a correct statement at all.
General MacEoin: Is the Minister aware that if this man was employed by an ordinary employer and this injury occurred, the Workmen's Compensation Act would apply? In what way does the State escape its liabilities in that respect?
Mr. Traynor: That may be, but I have to deal with the regulations as I find them.
Mr. Fagan: This man leaves a widow and eight children and they have to be maintained at the public expense. He was a barber before he went into the Army. His widow and eight children have no means of support. It is the talk of the whole County of Westmeath. There should be something done by the Army authorities. The injuries he received were the cause of his death.
General MacEoin: I should like to know from the Minister under what legislation can a court of inquiry override a court established by the laws of this country?
An Ceann Comhairle: That is a separate question.
[1338]General MacEoin: The Minister says that the finding of the coroner's court is incorrect because the court of inquiry has found otherwise.
Mr. Traynor: I did not say that at all; I said that the facts elicited at the court of inquiry were not in accordance with the Deputy's statement.
General MacEoin: With the permission of the Chair, I should like to raise the subject matter of question 13 on the Adjournment this evening. I have here a report of the coroner's inquest and I feel that the Minister has not the information that I am in a position to give him. I think the only satisfactory method is to raise the matter on the Adjourment.
An Ceann Comhairle: I shall consider that. Without entering into the merits of the case, I might point out that the Minister has indicated he has no responsibility outside the legislation which prescribes when and in what circumstances gratuities or pensions shall be given.
Mr. Corish: I submit that this raises a highly important national question, as to whether a court of inquiry set up by a Department can override the ordinary law of the country.
An Ceann Comhairle: That introduces a very wide question, which could certainly not be raised on the Adjournment.
Mr. Traynor: I doubt if the finding of the coroner's court has any binding effect in this case.
Mr. Corish: A very important principle is involved as to whether a court of inquiry can override the finding of the coroner's court.
An Ceann Comhairle: That again is too wide a question for debate on the Adjournment.
General MacEoin: I desire to give notice that, with the permission of the [1339] Chair, I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.
Tadhg O Murchadha: asked the Minister for Defence if he will state the present position of the claim of Edward Barry, Corroughalickey, Drinagh, Dunmanway, County Cork, now deceased, for a disability pension in respect of a disability contracted as a result of national service.
Mr. Traynor: An application under the Army Pensions Acts, 1923-1937, was received from the late Mr. Edward Barry, Corroughalickey, Drinagh, Dunmanway, County Cork, on 13th January, 1938. The death of the applicant was reported on the 23rd February, 1938, and, as a consequence, investigation of the claim was not proceeded with. His death determined the claim.
The Tánaiste: It is proposed to take the business as set out on the Order Paper, items 3 and 4. Item 4 will include Votes 54, 58, 61, 63 and 64. Item 2 will be taken in its appropriate place.
[1341]Mr. Corish: When is it proposed to take the County Management Bill?
Mr. Dillon: Will the Minister for Education consent to the recommittal of the Institute for Advanced Studies Bill, 1939, if the Committee Stage is taken to-day, because I have some amendments that I want to move, and I had not time to draft them since last week? Those amendments have been lodged at the office, but they would be late for to-day.
Minister for Education (The Taoiseach): I am quite prepared to do as the Deputy suggests. Of course, it will mean that we will be having practically two Committee Stages. In the circumstances, I do not know if there would be any advantage in going on with it to-day?
Mr. Dillon: You could get the Government amendments. If that arrangement is convenient for the Minister, I am sure it will be quite acceptable to us.
Mr. Dockrell: When will Item No. 10 —Housing (Amendment) Bill be circulated?
An Ceann Comhairle: I understand that the Bill will be circulated to-day.
Mr. Hughes: When will the Milk Bill be circulated?
Dr. Ryan: I cannot say. I think there will be a Milk Bill but whether it will be the present Bill or another, I do not know.
Mr. Corish: I suppose it is being watered.
General Mulcahy: Will the Minister give an undertaking that the period of waiting for that Bill will not be taken as an excuse for continuing winter prices for milk in Dublin during the summer?
Dr. Ryan: The prices will remain as they are.
[1342]General Mulcahy: Does that mean that the winter prices are to continue to remain for the coming summer?
Dr. Ryan: It is quite possible.
General Mulcahy: Does the Minister really mean to say——
An Ceann Comhairle: Deputies are entitled to ask when certain Bills will be taken but in inquiring they may not initiate a discussion on extraneous matters.
Minister for Finance (Mr. O Ceallaigh): I move:—
Go bhfuil sé oiriúnach a údarú go n-íocfaí amach as airgead a sholáthróidh an tOireachtas na suimeanna san is gá chun éifeachta do thabhairt d'Acht ar bith a rithfear sa tSiosón so chun socruithe do dhéanamh chun institiúide árd-léighinn a bheidh códhéanta de scoil léighinn Cheiltigh agus de scoil fisice teoiriciúla do bhunú agus do chothabháil i mBaile Atha Cliath, chun a údarú scoileanna do bhrainsí eile léighinn do chur leis an institiúid sin, agus chun socruithe do dhéanamh i dtaobh nithe bhaineas no ghabhas leis na nithe roimhráite.
That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of such sums as are required to give effect to any Act of the present session to make provision for the establishment and maintenance in Dublin of an institute for advanced studies consisting of a school of Celtic studies and a school of theoretical physics, to authorise the addition to such institute of schools in other subjects, and to provide for matters incidental or ancillary to the matters aforesaid.
General Mulcahy: The Taoiseach indicated on the last day on which we were discussing this Bill that the cost of this Institute for Advanced Studies was, in the early years, going to cost [1343] £15,000. He contemplated a situation in which it would cost about £26,000 annually. I would like to ask the Taoiseach if he would give some information as to the headings under which that £15,000 is to be spent in the early years; what part of that cost was to be absorbed by the Civil Service; what part by the housing of the various schools and how the money was to be distributed as between the professors and the other members of the staff? I would like also to know to what the scholarship provisions will amount? I think it is important that we would have some information on these points. I would also like to ask the Taoiseach what the reactions of these are going to be on the university? We pointed out, in the discussion on the Bill up to the present, that the proposals in this Bill are going to eat into the work done at the university. The Taoiseach says “no”. On the scheme, as we have it, if you take one side of it it is going to eat into the work done at the university and take work from the university.
If you take another side—if this institute is going to be, in fact, the kind of institute that it is supposed to aim at—then I submit that students entering this new institute would have to get additional training in the university to what they are getting at the present time. If this institute is going to be the big thing that in a general kind of way it is painted to be, then the university, I submit, could not possibly prepare material for entering it. As they are at present they are not in the position to do so. They are in a position at present in which they ought not to be. They have no professors of comparative philology; no professor of phonetics, and it would be necessary to have a professor of paleology if the standard of work asked for was going to be done in the institute and if the ordinary university work was not going to keep the new students in the university. In the first place I would ask the Taoiseach to tell us what is covered by the £15,000 and if he would indicate to us why he demurs when it is suggested that there are to be reactions on the university [1344] if you have one or the other outlook that I have indicated?
Mr. Dillon: The Minister for Education I hope will lay aside the sensitiveness he has displayed so far in discussing this Bill. There is no need for the Minister for Education to regard any demurrer to any of the proposals in this Bill as a personal reflection on himself. He should lay aside his touchiness and amour propre in this matter.
Minister for Education (The Taoiseach): Is it possible that we cannot have any discussion here in this House without personal recriminations of that sort? I think the Deputy has never got up that he has not thought fit to make personal remarks.
Mr. Dillon: That may be the Taoiseach's opinion but it is not mine. He ought to regard this business as an important public question and not be acting in a petty way, acting as a misrepresented person when he is not more misrepresented than anybody else. The Taoiseach should stand debate in this House without getting hit up about it. It is important on this financial resolution to direct the attention of the House to an aspect of the fortunes of the institute for advanced studies which, in my judgment, is important. It is the practice of the Department of Finance whenever public moneys are allocated to claim the right, even the duty, to examine their expenditure in great detail and to require the accounts to be rendered in the form that they require and that these accounts should be submitted to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and as a result of that, submitted later to the Public Accounts Committee of this House. That is a procedure which is to be highly commended in regard to public expenditure. But where you come to the new purpose as I understand it of Bills of this character, that is to endow learning and to fill the gap that has been created by the disappearance of potential patrons, I doubt very much if that stringent supervision is appropriate. Either this council which will be responsible for the institute of advanced studies is a responsible body [1345] or it is not. If it is not a responsible body it should not be the council of the institute of advanced studies. If it is a responsible body then it is very much more competent to determine how best these grants should be spent than is Dáil Eireann because, to my mind it borders upon the ridiculous to bring before Dáil Eireann the details of the institute expenditure in matters relating to research and higher education, when not 5 per cent. of the Deputies of this House have the faintest notion of what it is all about, and are quite incompetent to judge of the appropriate expenditure that is to be undertaken. There is a precedent for this. Because when the Congested Districts Board was established in this country for the carrying out of improvements on small and impoverished estates in the congested areas in this country it was decided then by the British Government that it was not expedient to compel them to prepare accounts in the same way as other Government Departments had to do, because their work was very different and was specialised and that it was better to leave them wide discretion; under the circumstances that experiment was a great success. I believe that highly technical and difficult as the work of that board may have been the work of this council is going to be infinitely more so. My knowledge of the procedure of the Public Accounts Committee makes it appear to me that to require the institute to account for their moneys in the same way as a Government Department would make its work virtually impossible. I want to ask the Minister for Education what he contemplates. Does he propose that the bursar of the institute would appear before the Committee of Public Accounts as the accounting officer for those moneys?
Mr. Dillon: Or will the Secretary of his Department answer to the Committee of Public Accounts for the expenditure of those moneys? I think he will find that the Committee of Public Accounts would claim under Section 26 of the Bill, as at present [1346] drafted, the right to get full particulars of any moneys expended by the institute, and would demand that the Secretary of the Department of Education, if he were the accounting officer responsible, appear before the committee, attended by the bursar of the institute, who must be ready to answer any inquiries put to him. If that is the position I think it ought to be considered, and that appropriate measures ought to be taken to correct it.
Mr. Cosgrave: Could we have some estimate of the cost of the housing accommodation which it is proposed to acquire or construct under Section 15?
The Taoiseach: With regard to the estimates they are, necessarily, at this stage tentative. First of all we have to envisage the fact that this institute will grow slowly. There is no intention to rush ahead. We want it to grow naturally, and natural growth is bound, in the circumstances, to be rather slow. That is particularly true I should say of the school of Celtic studies. My own belief is that the estimate made for the first year— it was made shortly before the war— will not work out as it is given here, for the reason that I do not think we will be able to have the institute going to an extent that would entail this particular expenditure.
For the school of Celtic studies it is estimated that, in the first year, a sum of about £7,000 will be required, for the school of theoretical physics about £5,000, and for administrative purposes a sum of slightly over £3,000, so that the total estimated expenditure for the first year is about £15,400. In the second year, it was thought that the expenditure in respect of the school of Celtic studies would have advanced to about £9,000, for the school of theoretical physics to about £5,500, and that the administration costs, which would include the provision of buildings, would have gone down to about £2,400 so that the total estimate for the second year would be close on £17,000. In the third year it was thought that there would be an increase in expenditure in [1347] respect of both schools with a slight increase in administration costs, the total running to close on £18,900. In the fourth year it was thought that the expenditure in the school of Celtic studies would have gone up to about £11,800, and that the figure for the school of theoretical physics would be £6,000. That seems to be envisaged as the maximum and continuing figure for that school. It was estimated that the administration costs would have gone up to £2,700, making the total for the fourth year about £20,500. In the fifth year it was thought that the expenditure in the school of Celtic studies would have gone up to about £13,300, the figure for the school of theoretical physics remaining steady at £6,000, and with the figure for administration purposes having gone up to close on £3,000, you get a total of about £22,300. The final figure envisaged for the school of Celtic studies was £17,250, for the school of theoretical physics £6,000 and for administration costs £3,700, making a total of practically £27,000—£26,962.
The administration costs, I take it, are intended to cover the rent of suitable buildings. The question of the construction of buildings has not arisen in regard to this because it is hoped that suitable buildings can be rented or acquired. As I indicated the last day, we may be able to get houses of the same size, for example, as the houses in Merrion Square. If we could get two or three houses of that type side by side they would be quite suitable, I think, at the start.
With regard to how far the work of the institute would encroach on the work done in the universities, I think I made it clear on the last day that its work was intended to be complementary to the work done in the universities: that it was intended that specialists, those who, for example, had reached let us say the standard of a travelling studentship in the universities would, if they intended to continue in their Celtic studies, pass on to the institute for more particularised studies. I do not agree that it would be necessary to equip the universities specially because this institute is here. [1348] A Chair of comparative philology ought to be necessary in the universities to-day even if no institute were set up. There may not be the same immediate incentive to establish it, but if the need exists at the moment for a Chair of comparative philology, I imagine that need would exist quite independently of whether the institute is established or not. With regard to paleography, a certain amount of work has been done in that regard already, so that any specialised studies would have to be undertaken by the institute itself in preparation for the examination of old texts. I do not know that I need say any more at present. We are not, I hope, going to have a Second Reading debate on the Money Resolution. It is proposed to take the Committee Stage immediately after the Money Resolution.
Mr. Dillon: Has the Taoiseach anything to say on the point I raised about the submission of the accounts of the institute to the Public Accounts Committee?
The Taoiseach: With regard to that I am of the same mind as the Deputy. It may be that, as the Bill is drafted, the accounts would have to be submitted to the Public Accounts Committee, but that was not the intention, and I will have the matter examined. My intention with regard to the accounts of the institute was that the same thing would be done as is done in the case of the universities, namely, that the accounts would be submitted to the Dáil and would be there to be examined, but that the minute scrutiny which is undertaken by the Public Accounts Committee would not take place, very largely for the reasons advanced by the Deputy which, I think, are well based.
General Mulcahy: I have no desire to make a Second Reading speech on the Money Resolution. I am trying to get some information with regard to the finances of this scheme. In the first place, I am trying to express my disapproval of the scheme before us and, failing to effect my purpose, to get information. I quite agree with the Taoiseach that, apart altogether from this institute and the doing of [1349] work of this kind in a separate institution, studies that should be done in the universities to-day in Irish would require a professor of comparative philology and a professor of phonetics.
Part of my point is that it would be much more satisfactory for the advancement of these studies to see that the proper equipment and money were available in University College for these things. I do insist that you are not going to make any progress here in a highly rarefied atmosphere without University College being equipped in the way I suggest. I ask the Taoiseach whether he will give some information as to how this money is to be divided between scholarships, professors, etc. I appreciate that there may be reasons why things will not advance on the theoretical physics side as quickly as he indicated for the reasons he suggested, but he has not indicated that there is any reason for slowing up the development of the school of higher learning. Therefore, I ask him, with regard to the school of higher learning, where he suggests that in the first year, outside administration expenses, £7,000 is going to be spent, how that is going to be spent as between professors, academic members other than professors, and scholarships for students.
The Taoiseach: The number of scholarships and so on will have to be determined in accordance with the terms of the Bill. They will have to be put up by the governing body of the school to the council, and the Minister will be involved, as there is a question of the amount that will be necessary. That is not easy to foresee. It will not be easy to determine in advance what scholarships will be required. With regard to the professors' salaries, there is one thing to be remembered—that there is no use in setting up an institute like this unless you have men who can be regarded as practically the best in the world in their class. In order to have professors of that sort, you must pay them a salary which will enable you to retain them. There have been instances to my own knowledge where [1350] very able men, whom it would have been a benefit to the country to retain here, were attracted elsewhere by higher salaries. Whilst we cannot enter into intense competition with much richer countries, at the same time we ought to be able to have such a standard of salaries as will reasonably retain men of that class. Therefore, you must have a high standard of salary.
With regard to the scholarships, I expect that we will have to introduce in the usual way an Estimate for the moneys required. This is only a general resolution, and we will have to bring a detailed Estimate before the Dáil when the school is set up and when the moneys are required, which will be the time when we can have this more detailed examination which the Deputy seems to want now and which I am not in a position to give. It is right, of course, that we should get a general view of what we are undertaking and what are likely to be our total commitments. As regards the details and the manner in which the particular sum will be allocated, I think that will come in more naturally when the Estimate, which will have to be brought in, will be before the Dáil. I cannot give the information asked for with regard to the scholarships, because that will depend very largely on the view which will be taken by the governing body and the council of the institute with regard to the scholarships. For instance, it may be desirable to attract students from abroad in the early years in order that the school may become well known. It may be necessary to offer scholarships which will attract such students. We want to have here an inducement to our own people to pursue those studies which will lead up to that. It may be necessary to have a few scholarships of that type so as to enable these to come forward.
In my opinion, the great value of the Institute, particularly of the school of Celtic studies, will be that young students going into the Celtic faculty, for example, and who may be found to have special abilities and special knowledge, will feel that there is an opening through which they can have practically a [1351] career of scholarship. As I have said, the work will take 20 or 30 years to complete. The governing body of the school and the council will have to be careful not to get any assistants for this work except those who are really first-class and who have already given proof, or will quickly give proof anyhow, that they would themselves be capable of advancing, say, to the standards already attained by the senior professors. Unless you have people of that sort who are skilled and able, there will be no point in bringing them into the school. But, if there are such, the school will give an opportunity of keeping them. Instead of having them attracted from these studies to the Civil Service or to teaching, there will be an inducement for them to continue, because they will have a life work or the greater part of a life work ahead of them in that direction.
It is a much better scheme for securing scholarship and devotion to Celtic studies than would be the giving of scholarships, such as the travelling scholarships in the university. These are useful for a year or two. After holding these scholarships and studying abroad, at the end the students see nothing before them. Very often you have examples of students who have been given travelling scholarships in the university giving up these scholarships and going in for Civil Service examinations for getting into some other vocational activity. Here it is not so much the scholarships that will be directly given that will count. It is the number of assistant-ships, if I might call them that, which will be available for editing those manuscripts under direct supervision. I hope the governing body and the council will be most particular as to the people whose services they will avail of as assistants in the early years, so that it will be known that nobody but a person who is really first-class, who has proved himself capable of being a scholar in the proper sense of the word, will be allowed into the institute at all. Further than that I cannot go, I am sorry to say. I think the Deputy will agree with me that at this stage [1352] all we can have in mind, is what our general commitments will be. I hope I will be able to give much more accurate estimates when we come to the consideration of the Estimate itself.
General Mulcahy: I should like to assure the Taoiseach that I am not attacking the principle of giving high pay to a person capable of doing first-class work. But I do not think a general idea of the cost is sufficient at the present time. We know the amount of money we are asked to spend and to take liability for. What we are concerned with then is the foundational strength of the institution itself. In asking to have the £7,000 for the first year divided up as between professors, assistants, and scholarships, I am not so much interested in the scholarship end as in getting a picture of the amount of money that is going to be spent on professorships and on senior academic members. If the Taoiseach wants to give the House any confidence in the scheme we shall have to have a discussion of the personnel to some extent. This is a Government measure. It provides that the Government shall have the deciding voice ultimately as to the remuneration that will be paid to the individual persons. I agree that you will want to have in charge of the work the best men that you can get in the world.
I take it that this Bill is not presented to the House, eight or nine months after permission was asked to introduce it, without there being a Government survey of the material available in the world and without being clear as to the particular personnel that is going to be the foundational professorial staff of the institute. It is for the purpose of getting information as to the foundation strength in professorial power that I make the point in regard to the £7,000. I do not want to link up particular persons with particular amounts, but perhaps the Taoiseach could answer the question as to how much of the £7,000 for the first year is going to provide for professorial services. If he could answer that point at this stage, I do not want him to go into [1353] further detail, but at a later stage we shall have to consider the personnel.
The Taoiseach: My intention, originally, was that we should have three senior professors in both schools.
General Mulcahy: Three in each?
The Taoiseach: Three in each—that was my intention at first. In the School of Celtic Studies, I hope that we shall be able to get a man who is distinguished particularly in old Irish to start with. Old Irish would be regarded as his particular qualification. Next I had hoped to get a man whose knowledge of what I might call classical modern Irish would be regarded as his particular qualification. Then I was anxious to get somebody in this country—if there were such available within the country, and, if not, without the country—whose knowledge of languages other than Irish—for example, Welsh and Breton—gave him special qualifications or eminence in these Celtic languages other than Irish. Now at the moment I have only two such men in mind and if we got this Bill through and were starting immediately I would propose to have only two senior professors appointed, my idea being that the moment we got a suitable third person of the type indicated his services could be secured. At the start, therefore, we would have two professors. Those whom I would propose are well known to Deputies on the opposite side also. They are two Irishmen who would particularly stand out in regard to the qualifications I have mentioned concerning old Irish. It happens that both of them know modern Irish and middle Irish, too.
General Mulcahy: If appointed, is it to be assumed that their appointment will deplete the personnel of our university staffs?
The Taoiseach: “Yes” and “No” perhaps would be the best answer to that. The point I have to explain is that their services may not in any case be available. One might not be available from University College.
[1354]General Mulcahy: If they were available, would their appointment mean a depletion in the staff of the university?
The Taoiseach: If both were available, in a sense their appointment would have that effect. If the Deputy pursues that matter it would inevitably drive me into mentioning names and I do not think that is right at this stage.
General Mulcahy: I will not ask for the names if the Taoiseach will give me the information I have asked a little more fully.
The Taoiseach: I cannot do that because I would have to explain the matter a little further.
General Mulcahy: The Taoiseach understands my difficulty?
The Taoiseach: I do. We understand each other so well that we do not need words to express our understanding.
General Mulcahy: I would not suggest that the Taoiseach and I should go into a back room to discuss this matter. It is a matter affecting mathematics in the secondary schools.
The Taoiseach: The Deputy will have a splendid chance of meeting me on the Estimate in regard to that question. I am sure he and his colleague on the Front Bench will avail of that opportunity, because these are matters of importance and I shall be very glad as Minister for Education to hear them on these matters. I think that we shall have to get ahead at the moment with the answers I have given. If the Deputy wishes I shall say “Yes” to his question. That is the nearest answer I can give him, but it is only of the half-way order. It is the nearest bulk answer I can give.
General Mulcahy: That is, that if these men are satisfied to do this work and if they are available, it will mean that their appointment will deplete the present university staffs?
[1355]The Taoiseach: All right; I shall answer “Yes”, but if I were to go into more detail, I should have to modify that to a certain extent.
General Mulcahy: Is the explanation that they are likely to be part-time in the university and part-time at this work?
The Taoiseach: No; that is not the answer.
General Mulcahy: Then I give it up.
The Taoiseach: I do not know that there is any further question connected with the Resolution that I should go into at this stage. It is intended that the institute will co-operate to a certain extent with the university colleges here in Dublin and that there will be lectures in these colleges. I indicated on a former stage of the Bill that it would be part of the duty of the professors to give lectures alternately in, say, University College, Dublin, and Trinity College on particular matters in which they were themselves interested, so that they would be in close touch with the university colleges in that way. There would, naturally, also be meetings with the professors. If you have an institute of that sort, the professors in the faculty of Celtic studies will naturally be meeting the senior professors of the institute from time to time. If there is any particular matter on which the professors of the colleges would like to have their opinion, they would be at hand and available here in Dublin. Instead of speaking of this as something altogether divorced from the universities, Deputies should understand that the professors of the institute will be in close contact with the universities. They will give lectures there, as I have told you. In addition they will be getting a number of advanced students. There is no use in taking students who have not advanced to the master's degree unless there happens to be an individual like Hamilton himself, in which case he could go practically anywhere. I suggest that at this stage it is not desirable that I should be asked for further information.
[1356]General Mulcahy: I realise that I have extracted as much information as I can get from the Taoiseach but that does not say that I am in favour of the Resolution, because I am against the scheme.
Question put and declared carried.
Resolution reported and agreed to.
Section 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
SECTION 2.Question proposed: “That Section 2 stand part of the Bill.”
Mr. Dillon: Why has it been decided to call this “the Dublin institute” rather than the Irish institute for advanced studies.
The Taoiseach: Because it is going to be situated in Dublin, and it is very much better to have it so called.
Mr. Dillon: It appears to me that if it is going to be a national institute, endowed by the nation, it should be described by a national title. If the Dublin Corporation were going to endow the institute, it would be proper to call it the Dublin institute, or if there were an area of charge to be fixed, it would be proper to call it by the name of the area on which the charge would be levied. If it is to be a national institution and the revenue is to be a charge upon the Exchequer and upon the community as a whole, and if Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Cork and Waterford are to make contributions towards it, I cannot imagine why it should be called the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies. I simply cannot see why, by the use of such a title, the rest of the country should be invited to take no interest and no pride in it.
The Taoiseach: The question is as to which way it can best be done. The thoughts which are in the Deputy's mind were also in my mind in selecting this title. In other countries, as a rule, the university takes its name from the particular place in which it happens to [1357] be located. Whether it be medicine or theoretical or mathematical physics, or even Celtic studies, on account of the capital city being the centre where the work was being done, it was generally called by that name. Whilst I appreciate the considerations which the Deputy has mentioned, I came to the conclusion—finally, and after full consideration—that it would be better, from the point of view of our reputation abroad, that it should be called the Dublin Institute, not merely from the point of view I have mentioned, but after the capital of Ireland as the capital of the nation. If the institute were to be situated somewhere else, I might doubt the wisdom of that, but, as it is to be situated in the capital I think there will be no misunderstanding and that everybody will realise it is an Irish foundation. The more particularised the name is, the better, in this instance.
Mr. Dillon: The Collége de France is not called the Collége de Paris. At the moment, I cannot think of any institute of this kind but the Collége de France.
General Mulcahy: France has not the same constitutional difficulty in describing itself as we have here under the new Constitution.
Mr. Dillon: I never have any difficulty in using the word Ireland, Constitution or no Constitution; I had no difficulty in using it before any of this Constitution business was ever heard of, and I should have no difficulty whether the Constitution were ever heard of or not. All I can say is that I differ with the Prime Minister in this matter. I think it is well to bear in mind that, in planning an institute of his kind, we are not planning something which is to last for ten or 20 years only. If it turns out as some of of us hope it will, it will last long after all of us are buried. The likelihood of any other country changing its name to “Ireland” is remote, but there are already about 40 “Dublins” in the world. I do not know whether any of those Dublins scattered about the world will ever rival our national [1358] capital in notoriety but, certainly, it seems to me that the name “Irish Institute”—both from the internal viewpoint and from that of our international reputation—is preferable in every sense of the word. May I remind the Taoiseach at this stage that the Prime Minister of Great Britain recently fell into a rather distressing error when he hoped that the word Narvik in despatches had not been misapplied to Larvik? I hope that the word Dublin will not be confused with the word Lublin and that no one will expect to find on the facade of the institute a Nazi cross and on the President of it a brown shirt. I will move an amendment next week.
SECTION 3.(1) The functions of the institute shall be to provide facilities for the furtherance of advanced study and the conduct of research in specialised branches of knowledge and for the publication of the results of such study and research.
The Taoiseach: I move amendment No. 1:—
In sub-section (1), page 2, line 41, to delete the word “such” and substitute the word “advanced”, and to add after the word “research”, the following words “whether carried on under the auspices of the institute or otherwise”.
The purpose of this amendment is to ensure that the institute will have the power to publish works by extern scholars. Under the present drafting, it may appear that the institute could only publish works which were the actual result of their own immediate labours in the school. We think that is not advisable. There is somewhat similar provision to be made in a subsequent amendment under which we are widening the scope, so that foreign scholars might be commissioned to do certain work. For example, we secured recently a book on Irish grammar by arranging with [1359] a foreign scholar to edit a former edition of his work, putting in amendments and notes which he was known to possess. That will be published fairly soon. We did that ourselves here. I think we had an Estimate in the Dáil on one occasion for it. This will mainly apply to the school of Celtic studies, but the same principle should hold in other cases. If there is a piece of work which it is desired to have done and there is a foreign scholar particularly fitted to do that work, it should be within the competence of the school to arrange for the carrying out of that work and pay to that foreign scholar whatever remuneration is considered appropriate.
Section 3, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 4.Question proposed: “That Section 4 stand part of the Bill.”
Mr. Dillon: I repeat my objection to paragraph (b), but I propose to refer to that in connection with an amendment which I will move on the recommittal of the Bill.
General Mulcahy: Can the Taoiseach say what the intention is with regard to the date of establishment of the school of Celtic studies on the one hand and that of theoretical physics on the other?
The Taoiseach: I hope that by the opening of the new academic year both schools will have been established. When speaking on the Money Resolution, I said that it was hoped to have two professors for the school of Celtic studies. My original intention with regard to theoretical physics was to have three professors but in view of the war and other circumstances it is proposed to begin with one. We would begin with one in October, or with two if a second is available.
General Mulcahy: Does the Taoiseach assure us that one appointment [1360] will not deplete the present university staffs?
The Taoiseach: As a matter of fact, under my original intention there will be only one that might have depleted a university staff, but I do not know if that will occur now.
General Mulcahy: And the other one the Taoiseach has in mind is at present here and is working already under the Royal Irish Academy?
The Taoiseach: That was done in order to retain his services in the country, so that he would be available immediately the school is started.
SECTION 5.(2) The functions and duties of the school of theoretical physics shall be—
(a) the investigation of the mathematical principles of natural philosophy and the application of those principles to the physical and chemical group of sciences and to geophysics and cosmology;
(b) the training of advanced students in methods of original research in the said group of sciences and in geophysics and cosmology;
(c) the provision of facilities for advanced study and research in theoretical physics for university professors and lecturers on leave of absence from their academic duties;
(d) the organisation of seminars, conferences, and lectures on topics related to theoretical physics which lie on the frontiers of knowledge;
(e) the preparation and the recommendation to the council for publication of descriptions of recent accessions to knowledge in the sphere of theoretical physics and in particular descriptions of such accessions resulting from the scientific activities of the school;
[1361] (f) such other functions and duties in relation to theoretical physics as may from time to time be assigned to the school by the Government by order made after consultation with the governing board of the school.
The Taoiseach: I move amendment No. 2:—
In sub-section (2), page 4, after paragraph (e), to insert a new paragraph as follows:—
(f) the commissioning of competent scholars, whether associated or not associated with the institute, to undertake, either with or without remuneration, the writing or the editing of works dealing with theoretical physics.
Mr. Dillon: That is consequential on amendment No. 1?
Mr. Dillon: This amendment proposes to give power to commission works. Here, I think, a note of warning is necessary. I recently had brought before me at the Committee of Public Accounts a commission of this character. A man was given a commission to prepare a vocabulary of a certain very limited area, not much larger than a borough, in this country. I have no doubt the man was a perfectly bona fide scholar who threw his heart and soul into this work. I think what was envisaged was a modest octavo volume. When the work had reached 1,000,000 words and was heading for the 17th volume it was suggested to the Department of Education that the basis of the commission might profitably be reviewed, because if this went on the work might never finish and the cost reach proportions that were never anticipated by those who commissioned the work. I understand that some more satisfactory arrangement has now been arrived at. That is a matter that requires to be vigilantly watched because the person commissioned may have an entirely different [1362] view of the work anticipated from the body that gives the commission. If you have made up your mind to retain the services permanently of a man who is a research professor you know what you are in for, but if you confer upon a body of scholars, who are not primarily business men, an indiscriminate right to commission work from outside the institution it gives rise to problems of the kind that I have outlined which require constant vigilance from a person accustomed to the difficulties that arise in the granting of such commissions.
The Taoiseach: I agree with the Deputy that care has to be exercised in cases of that kind.
Mr. Dillon: There is an immense loophole.
The Taoiseach: The trouble is that it is admittedly desirable that the power should be there. The exercise of it is another matter. In regard to the care that should be taken in the exercise of it, I am in agreement with the Deputy.
Mr. Dillon: This is an amendment being put in now and I think an amendment to this amendment should be considered between now and the Recommittal Stage with a view to providing that commissions given to scholars outside the institution should be submitted to some competent authority who would examine the business side of them. I am not asking to have unreasonable interference with the council's discretion but I do not look to the council as primarily a business body. They are a body of scholars and I would be glad to think that the bursar would be required to consult with somebody—I am not quite clear whom, as yet—with a view to safe guarding the council against entering into any improvident commission the full liabilities of which had not been foreseen.
The Taoiseach: I think the Deputy will agree that the considerations which he mentioned before, which make it inadvisable that the accounts [1363] should be submitted to the Committee of Public Accounts, also arise here. If you tie them too tightly in the Bill you are going to make it practically impossible to get the work done. In this scheme of the Bill there is a series of checks in a sense. First of all, the only body that is capable of making contracts, etc., is the council, the body corporate. If the governing body wanted something to be done that involved finance they would have to come to the council. In addition the council in dealing with matters of finance would have to consult with the Minister for Education who would have to get the concurrence of the Minister for Finance. I think the danger in the general scheme of the Bill is one of restriction rather than of giving that amount of freedom which might have the effects which the Deputy fears.
Mr. Dillon: Is the Minister sure he is right?
The Taoiseach: In trying to get a scheme for this Bill I had to bear in mind two sides. First of all, the Government was coming in very closely and it was desirable, therefore, that if the Government were to be responsible there should be close contact and, in a sense, a certain amount of supervision, particularly where finance is concerned. In the Bill originally we had the Minister for Finance coming in directly, so that the council would consult with the Minister for Finance. We thought that was not right, that it was much better that there should be only one link between the council and the Government, namely, the Minister for Education. If financial questions are involved he has to have the concurrence of the Minister for Finance with regard to expenditure of a certain type.
Mr. Dillon: I think the Minister is wrong there. If the Minister looks at his Bill he will find that where a professor or anybody is being appointed [1364] to the staff of the institute, when their terms of employment and matters of that kind are being fixed then the approval of the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Education must be got, but it is not argued for a moment that in the several functions set out in Section 5 the Minister's approval must be obtained on every occasion nor do I think it ought to be.
Mr. Dillon: But into Section 5, where there is a wide discretion and where we are all agreed there ought to be wide discretion and a minimum of interference from the Ministry of Finance, you are putting the power to commission outside professors to do work and it is because you are putting it into that section that I think you ought to be on the qui vive. As regards sub-heads A, B, C, D, E and F, as they appear in the section, I do not want any checks. I think it is wise to leave the council a wide discretion there, but if you are going to give them the further power to commission persons outside the institution then, I think, the procedure suggested under Sections 17, 18 and 19 would probably be more appropriate. I do not press the Minister for Education, but I would ask him to consider that question.
The Taoiseach: I think the Minister for Education will be held by the Government as a whole as more or less responsible for a lot of the activities in so far as they involve financial commitments, and he will have to keep in much closer touch than, for example, the Minister for Education has to keep with the universities. He is brought in much more directly. Consequently, I think the fact that money will be hard to obtain and that the council will have to be appealing for money for new projects, and the fact that the Minister may say, “Look at what you did in such a case” will be a check on the council. It may be locking the door after the steed is stolen, but I think it would be a constant warning that care has to be exercised in matters of that sort. I know the Deputy's [1365] anxiety, but I would leave it as it is even after the warning he has given. I do not think we should amend it.
Mr. Dillon: Perhaps the Minister would cause inquiry to be made into the case which I have referred to in which, although everybody was acting in the best of faith, we got involved in this wholly limitless commitment. I think it was by the goodwill of the scholar that we were released and a more satisfactory contract substituted.
The Taoiseach: Yes. Accidents will happen in the best regulated families.
General Mulcahy: May I take it, in relation to this amendment, that there is no restriction as to the language, or may I ask if there is any restriction as to the language in which these works will be written?
The Taoiseach: I do not think so. If there is work that can be done by a specialist it may have to be done in his own language for the time being and then we may have to get translations of it, or something of that sort. I think we had better leave it as it is. Naturally, where it can be made available in a language that is known in the schools that will be the aim.
General Mulcahy: We might want to consider the question of dealing with translations, if so.
The Taoiseach: Well, I should like to suggest that we cannot run the school from here at this particular moment. We cannot go into very close detail at the moment here, and can only deal with the general question.
General Mulcahy: Yes, but you are indicating here the functions and duties.
General Mulcahy: I suggest that you are limiting the functions.
[1366]The Taoiseach: Only in regard to a special language.
General Mulcahy: No, but by special Acts. This amendment, however, deals with the commissioning of competent scholars to deal with certain works, but I do not know if there is any provision there for the translation of such works.
Mr. Dillon: I think that Deputy Mulcahy is perfectly right, inasmuch as you may deprive this institute of the power to pay for translations. I think that something should be put in there giving general powers in that regard.
The Taoiseach: Well, we can put in a note to that effect. By the way, I am reminded that there is a general clause which, I think, covers that, later on. In any case, we can amend this clause later on.
Question proposed: “That Section 5, as amended, stand part of the Bill.”
Mr. Benson: Speaking on the section, Sir, and arising out of the remarks that have been made by the Taoiseach and Deputies Mulcahy and Dillon, I think there is no general provision in the Bill to deal with this matter. Sub-section (3) of Section 5 says that
“every constituent school, other than the school of Celtic studies and the school of theoretical physics, shall have such functions and duties as shall be assigned to it by the establishment order relating to it or by an order amending that order.”
That is to say, an establishment order for these two particular schools must have these particular functions and these only, and there is no provision for varying. There is provision made for the setting up of other schools, and provision is also made for the order, and the amending of that order, by which the functions and duties of such schools shall be determined but, according to my reading of the Bill, there is no provision whatever for the amending [1367] of the provisions in relation to these particular two schools and no power for varying these provisions afterwards.
Mr. Dillon: I think that you could read such a power into paragraph (f), which I think appears in the original Bill.
Mr. Dillon: I think that it means that the amendment is incorrectly drawn.
The Taoiseach: Well, I shall look into that matter, but I think there is a general clause covering it.
Mr. Dillon: I think that a paragraph (g) after the amendment, would give you the necessary power.
General Mulcahy: On the section itself, Sir; in so far as it deals with purely Celtic studies, as set out here, and the functions and duties concerned therein, I have expressed an opinion already as to why this school —I do not know why it should be called a school—is going to undertake a work that is the proper province, in my opinion, of the university, and I can quite visualise great reactions taking place on the standard and the volume of Celtic studies, now being pursued in the universities, as the result of this. Let us take into consideration what is proposed here. Section 5 says that the functions and duties of the school of Celtic studies shall be:—
“(a) the investigation, editing, and publication of extant manuscript material in the Irish language.”
Now, I can quite easily understand machinery being set up for the doing of that outside the university. It already exists. It already exists in the case of the Irish Manuscripts Committee and also in the case of the Royal Irish Academy, and I am not quite clear at all as to the necessity for setting up new machinery to deal [1368] with such matters. However, I accept the fact that that is work that can be done outside the university without undermining the position of the university in any way. Then, we have paragraph (b):—
“the grammatical, lexicographical and philological study of old, middle and modern Irish.”
Now, that, to my mind, is work that is proper to the university, and I should like to find out, if that is being transferred to the new body, how much of it is going to be left to the university, and, if a certain amount of it is going to be taken out of the university, to what extent the Irish faculty of the university is going to be reduced.
I do not want to argue too much on the question of personnel, but I do suggest that it is possible that some university professors will be taken from the service of the university for that particular purpose, and I should like to know how, under the existing and very stringent circumstances financially, they are going to be replaced. The next is paragraph (c): “the phonetic investigation of existing Irish dialects and the recording of the living Irish speech in all Irish-speaking districts.” I think that, in fact, is the most urgent thing that is required at the present time. Such manuscripts as exist at the moment are there now and they can be studied just as well in two years' time as in three, or four, or five years' time, as the case may be. They are there, but the work of the phonetic investigation of the existing Irish dialects is a thing that is urgent. It is a thing in connection with which a beginning has been undertaken, I understand, as part of the university machine, by the Folklore Institute. I understand that that institute is part of the university machine, and I think that, at any rate, the Taoiseach does not deny that the Folklore Institute is housed in, and also a part of, University College.
The Taoiseach: Again, that is partially true.
[1369]General Mulcahy: Well, of course, I do not know how we are going to advance in higher mathematics if every figure that we examine is only going to be regarded as partially correct. However, as I say, the beginning of that work has been done by the Folklore Society, and I should like to know what machinery is going to tackle the work that is immediately necessary in that connection, and also to what extent there will be a withdrawal of work from the Folklore Society, and in what way there will be a corresponding withdrawal of finance. Paragraph (d) has to do with the collection and stndy of Irish place names. Now, if there is any more suitable machinery for dealing with that type of miscellaneous work than the Folklore Society, I do not know of it, and I should like to know whether, in view of this paragraph, that work is going to be taken away entirely from the Folklore Society. Paragraph (e) has to do with the study of Irish social history and of all branches of Irish history which require for thier investigation a knowledge of the Irish language. Now, it is very hard to know what that means: whether it means that we are going to extract, from old Irish manuscripts that exist, some kind of a picture of society in the Irish past, or whether we are going to see it from the picture of things that the Folklore Society is trying to create—from the Swedish point of view. Again, it seems to me that that is going to take away some work from the Folklore Society that, at any rate, it seems to me, it is trying to do or, at least, developing our people to do.
Then we have paragraph (f): “the preparation and the recommendation to the council for publication of works dealing with any of the subjects mentioned in any of foregoing paragraps of this sub-section and of other works calculated to promote a more general knowledge of the literature of the Celtic languages and to the cultural and social background of Celtic civilisation.” I do not know of any people in this country, or in any part of this country, who are more qualified to make recommendations as to what manuscripts are most necessary to be [1370] examined, or what work should be done in that connection, than the Irish faculties in the Irish universities. If any direction or advice is to be got as to the priority to be given under paragraph (a), I say that there are no people you can go to for that but the people who are dealing with higher studies in the universities. They are the only people who can tell you in respect of what manuscripts they are handicapped, the general extent to which they are handicapped, as they are, and what particular manuscripts they require to have worked on. There is no research involved as to what manuscripts exist. There is a sufficient volume there to indicate at once what is required to be done, but I think it is entirely the function of the university side.
Paragraph (g)—the training of advanced students in the methods of research in any of the said subjects— brings me back to the point I raised on the Money Resolution. This school of high studies connot function except in an absurd, incompetent and costly way if the people who enter it are people who are not already trained, and, again in that respect, a strengthening of the professorial side of the universities is one of the most urgent necessities if a better approach is to be made to the work indicated in paragraph (a). If that better approach in the Celtic faculty, or the Irish faculties in the universities, is not made, or if it can only be made with a certain amount of expense, a lot of the work here is waste and a lot of the work talked about will be left undone.
I must say that I do not at all understand paragraph (h). The Taoiseach indicated that those who were professors in the new institute would attend and give lectures at University College, Dublin, for one year and attend Trinity College next year.
The Taoiseach: Not for a year, but to give occasional lectures.
General Mulcahy: I think the Taoiseach spoke of alternate years.
[1371]The Taoiseach: Yes; in alternate years, they will give a course of lectures.
General Mulcahy: In one university now and in another university again?
The Taoiseach: In one college.
General Mulcahy: It simply emphasises the necessity for a connection between this institute and the universities. A mere going to the universities and giving a set of lectures is not the kind of contact wanted. The kind of contact wanted is the contact that would exist if this institute were part and parcel of the National University.
So far as paragraph (i)—the provision of facilities for advanced study and research for university professors and lecturers—is concerned, I do not know why it is necessary to have a separate institute for that. Similarly with regard to the next sub-paragraph dealing with the exchange of students with other countries. That exchange is carried out by the universities already. To my mind, there is only one thing which, if the advancement of Celtic studies is to be effectively brought about, might be taken outside our universities, that is, the investigation, editing, and publication of extant manuscript material in the Irish language, and this should be done on the advice of those people who are dealing with Irish language matters in the universities.
Mr. Dillon: With regard to the functions and duties of the school of Celtic studies, paragraph (c) provides for the phonetic investigation of existing Irish dialects and the recording of the living Irish speech in all Irish-speaking districts. You could not call the suburbs of Chicago an Irish-speaking district, and yet very valuable work has been done there. I would advise the striking out of those words: “In all Irish-speaking districts.” It would take a great deal to persuade people that Buenos Aires is an Irish-speaking district. I have myself found Irish on the top of Lookout [1372] Mountain in Colorado, and I know scholars who have found very valuable repositories of folklore, song and idiom in the suburbs of Chicago. I therefore recommend the removal of these words because I think them superfluous and capable of creating unforeseen difficulties.
With regard to (e)—the study of Irish social history and to all branches of Irish history which require for their investigation a knowledge of the Irish language—what is the point of putting that in? Surely “The study of Irish social history and of all branches of Irish history” is quite enough? If it is the purpose of the council to leave the study of those branches of knowledge to other institutes except where they require a knowledge of old, middle or modern Irish, they can by their day to day arragements segregate the part of historical research which requires a knowledge of Irish and apply their minds to that; but let us not, by statute, limit them to such branches of Irish history as cannot be pursued without a knowledge of the Irish language. Otherwise you are going to have interminable arguments between legalistic experts as to whether certain schemes are or are not ultra vires the charter of the institute, and that is a very unprofitable kind of business to promote.
Under sub-paragraph (k), I think you could probably extend the scope of any of these sub-paragraphs, but if we imagine sub-paragraph (e) to be wide enough with the words which it at present includes, a branch of study might be embarked upon under that sub-paragraph and the point might not be raised until it had been seven or eight years in progress that it was ultra vires and that it should have been done under an order made under sub-paragraph (k). Let us, therefore, strike out the redundant words:
“which require for their investigation a knowledge of the Irish language.”
That leaves the paragraph wide or narrow enough to meet every requirement.
[1373]The Taoiseach: I have already indicated that I propose to amend this section somewhat. These functions were originally suggested by the Irish Studies Section of the Academy and they are being sent, with some amendments, for further consideration. These amendments would have to be brought in at a later stage—unfortunately we have not got them ready at the moment—but the trouble is with regard to being too narrow or too broad. We do not want to have historical research generally, in so far as it affects Ireland even, undertaken by the school. We want them to undertake such research as they would be particularly fitted to undertake and the question is how to get a phrase which will, on the one hand, not appear altogether too narrow and, on the other, will limit them to what we intend. Our intention is that they should undertake that work for which they are best fitted, and those who have a knowledge of the ancient language would naturally be the best people for historical investigations in which that knowledge was required.
We must imagine all these people to be sensible. The appointments will indicate the type of work the men are specially fitted for. Here the intention is to indicate in a general way the type of work they will have to do. I think Deputy Mulcahy is opposed to this proposal because of some misunderstanding about its whole purpose, and the more I listened to him the more I began to blame myself for not having gone more fully into it at an earlier stage. I do not see how he can think that this Institute is going to do work which the universities should properly do. The Deputy knows the universities sufficiently well and the work that is actully done in them at the present day. The professors there have to teach and give lectures to different classes of students, first year, second year and third year, or those going for a degree and doing post-graduate and higher courses. That is the main part of the work of the professors. In addition to that the professors, being naturally interested in their studies, have no time at their disposal to pursue certain investigations. If they get good students that they think will have [1374] the ability to pursue a certain line, they lead them along that line to the point when they travel together and are beyond the frontiers of present assured knowledge. That is work that is being done. That ordinary professors in a university have no opportunity to undertake such a collosal task as to go through Irish manuscripts, selecting those which ought to be brought out first, and getting them produced in anything like a reasonable time. A professor may be interested in one stage. An M.A. student may take on the editing of one particular text as a thesis. The universities will never be in a position to undertake the systematic sort of work required to be done in this school of Celtic studies.
The Deputy suggested the compiling of a grammar. Anybody who has made a study of the language knows that we are in need of a really authoritative grammar at the present time. As a matter of fact, what we want is to start with three grammars, to analyse what is the correct usage in the three main dialects, and you want scholars who are able to do that. You want scholars who can collate the whole lot and give a unified or comprehensive grammar of the Irish language. That is not the work of a professor. A professor could undertake it, but it would be a very long and a very difficult task. It might take a lifetime to make investigations. If he was in the position of a director and had some assistants he could organise the work and say that such and such is to be the order. He might arrange to have three grammars going on at the same time, by having a general plan, and then when the three were brought along, he would get another authority that he thought more competent for a particular section. That is the work which would have to be undertaken away altogether from the day-to-day task of a professor in a university, with a growing number of students to be prepared for the life they are to lead afterwards in the professions and so on. I think Deputy will agree that these grammars are required.
The same thing applies to [1375] dictionaries. We have no perfect dictionaries. Those we have were a magnificent effort on the part of those who compiled them, having regard to the help they got and the amount of material available, but Deputies will agree that we are very far from having the type of Irish dictionary that ought to be available, and that will be available in the future, I hope, as a result of the activities of a school like this. You want people constantly working at one edition after another, in which you could expand the material which was available since the first went through.
Mr. Dillon: Is not the Royal Irish Academy doing that at the present time?
The Taoiseach: No. They are doing a certain amount of that work, and there will be close contact between this school of Celtic studies, the University Faculty, and the Royal Irish Academy. There will not be duplication.
Mr. Dillon: Is not the Royal Irish Academy doing a dictionary at present?
The Taoiseach: There was a project about an old Irish dictionary, but at the rate at which it was being produced it would take from 50 to 70 years to complete. That rate of progress is much too slow for us. We tried to urge it on more rapidly. We cannot get absolute perfection in this world. There will be a second edition of a book, and even in the second edition there will be errors of one kind or another. If we want to make progress we must be prepared to do our best every time, but even with the best there will be some errors. In subsequent editions there can be corrections. I admit that they should be as iew as possible. Remember, time is a very important element. If we spend a long time doing a small piece of work in order to make it absolutely perfect, it would bot be advisable that the larger amount of work, in which there might be some errors which could be [1376] corrected afterwards, should be delayed.
Going back to the question of the Irish dictionary an agreement was come to to have a different one from the one projected. It would probably take from 50 to 100 years to complete at the rate at which it was going. The very people who have sufficient knowledge to do the work might not be available, and others equally well qualified might not be left to do the work. Remembering that life is relatively short, and that when a man has reached the position in which he is really an expert scholar, the number of years left him for first-class work is comparatively small. There is a period of life at which a certain amount of work must be done if it is going to be done at all. In regard to the dictionaries, my idea is that we want a dictionary like Father Dinneen's as quickly as it can be produced. The nation will always be grateful to Father Dinneen for the work he did on his dictionary. We want to increase the usefulness of that dictionary. There are numbers of words not in it, and it has to be carefully examined from the point of seeing what is archaic. We want an etymological dictionary, and greater number of phrases, indicating the various uses of words. That is work which would require continuous direction over a very long period. In the ordinary way, the end of this work would not be seen in our time. That work could not be done by the universities. They have no way of setting aside three or four persons who could spend ten or 15 years at that work.
The same would be true with regard to place-names. That is specialised work. Others may be doing it, but the director of the school would avail of the services of the workers already in the field if they were regarded by him as competent. The collection of place-names and their publication would require continuous effort over a number of years. Again, that work could not be done by the university. It has been suggested that the Folklore Commission, or some kindred body might do it, but the Folklore Commission is concentrating on a particular piece of [1377] work. There is a great deal more of that work to be done and I think it is well to let them continue at that work for the present.
As regards the recording, in a specialised way, of Irish speech, there is a certain amount being done, but we want to ensure that it will be done systematically. If there is any need to supplement the work already done in that connection, it will be supplemented. The intention is that if the school thinks that it should enter upon any of these functions set out, it should not be excluded from doing so. The Deputy should, if he thinks over the matter, come to the conclusion that the continuous work over a period of years envisaged in this Bill could not possibly be done by the universities. The Deputy says that we are depleting the university staff. We have to remember that, at a certain age, professors retire and have to be replaced. Provision has to be made for the taking of their places by younger men. It is well that provision should be made while the older men are still available to guide the younger men and that they should be close at hand, as they will be in this institute. If provision of that kind were postponed until such time as these men would have passed away, a great deal of the knowledge they have would have gone with them. I find it hard to understand why the Deputy is opposing the Bill on the ground that the university will be robbed.
General Mulcahy: The Taoiseach gave us a description of the work that university professors do. I tried to intervene with a sensible question, the answer to which might have helped the House, but I did not succeed. Perhaps the Taoiseach would tell us what the function is of the Professor in Research in connection with Irish in the National University and if he is going to be taken out of that.
The Taoiseach: So far as I know, the Professor of Research was allowed to pursue any line he chose in regard to Celtic studies. He was quite free to occupy himself with any particular work in the domain of research and, [1378] if students wished to avail of his services for direction, they were free to do so. In this case, the professors will be expected to do the things that will be set out. One of these things would be the giving of a series of lectures in the colleges from time to time in regard to the particular subjects they were studying, so as to make the information more generally available. They will help students to do their particular branch of research and, by the holding of little conferences, encourage them to pursue certain lines. The professors will have assistants of the class I have indicated already and they will be able to pursue this work as if it were their life work instead of being obliged to engage in other activities. The case of the Research Professor in Celtic Studies is, more or less, unique in the National University and that faculty would not be sufficient to meet the need in this case.
General Mulcahy: Do I understand the Taoiseach to say that the Professor of Research in Celtic Studies in the National University is simply appointed as a personality, free to pursue his own whim in any particular way and without any functional duties to the university—that he is simply there as a person given asylum to carry out his own personal work?
The Taoiseach: I have not got the statute under which the Professor of Celtic Research was appointed and I could not answer the question with exactness but in general——
General Mulcahy: That is the picture the Taoiseach gives us of this advanced-study work in the National University.
The Taoiseach: I do not know what exactly the Deputy now means. The professors in the Celtic faculties in the universities teach students. In the case of those who have gone to the stage at which they might be given a thesis, they help them along with the research necessary to do the thesis properly. I do not think that the research professor had any student classes given him but he was always [1379] available to students if they wanted his services. I do not know if many students directly availed of his assistance. The professor was appointed under a special statute and I should have to look up the statute to learn what exactly his functions are.
In the case of this school, a definite programme of work will be drawn up by the director. One of the professors in each school will be indicated as director and part of his duty will be to map out the work which the particular school is going to do during a certain period. He will have to present that to the governing body of the school and get their approval of the plan. Then he will have to supervise the carrying out of the plan. Naturally, he would have consulted the other professors in preparing this plan and it would be so arranged that their expert assistance would be available. I am speaking now mainly of the school of Celtic studies because, in that case, there is available a definite volume of work. In the case of mathematical physics, or sciences like that, it is not always clear what particular field you may have to cover. Much depends on chance hitting upon something that may be fruitful. In this case, we know that there is a definite mass of material to be worked and that the task will occupy a number of persons systematically over a number of years.
General Mulcahy: The Taoiseach will excuse me if I say that I see the pale shadow, as drawn by him, of the Professor of Research in Modern Irish disappearing from University College, Dublin. Whether the picture be exaggerated or not, I see the taking away of the coping stone of advanced Irish studies in the National University. I also see this, that it would be of infinitely greater strength to the advancement of university studies in Irish if those who are working on grammars were working as part of the university. The Taoiseach talks about taking 30 years to prepare a dictionary. I do not know how long it is going to take in the case of a grammar, but I say that there is a day [1380] to day product of useful knowledge turned out from the grammar workshop and that the closer it is associated with the university the better would the work be done and the quicker and more valuable would be the impact of that work on the ordinary studies in the university. However dimly we see things, it would look as if we see things from different points of view.
Mr. Dillon: I must ask the Taoiseach to peruse what he said when he was speaking of the dictionary, because I think he will find words there which are capable of interpretation as meaning that he would be content with a lower standard of learning from this institute than we have expected in the past from the academy. I do not believe he intended to convey that impression, but if he will peruse the words he used he may deem it expedient on recommittal to amplify them.
The Taoiseach: Lest there be any misunderstanding about that, I had better amplify it at once. What I mean is this: when you have exercised all reasonable care with the knowledge that you have got and when, if you are in doubt, you try to amplify things, you have got your work done. One should not stop publication merely on the ground that it is quite possible one has omitted something. Human effort is always imperfect and therefore it is much better, in my opinion, when you have got the highest standard which you can reach with your knowledge, to produce the work and make it available for the public instead of keeping it in your head and perhaps dying with it. Whilst I would like to have the highest possible standard, I would rather see an imperfect dictionary produced by the academy in a period of 20 years rather than to have a perfect one done in 100 years. If I get an imperfect one done in ten or 15 years, I know there are people who will come after me who will examine the imperfections and amplify the work.
The main point is that we should make a beginning. What may happen is that you will have the letters A, B, [1381] C, D, and E done in a lifetime. The people of the present day want some assistance and, instead of having these things done exhaustively—because it is often a question of doing the thing exhaustively—it would be much better, in my opinion, to have them done in a less exhaustive way so as to make some beginning. The point is that rather than attempt to do the thing exhaustively, such as taking the letters A, B, C, D, E or perhaps half the alphabet in a period of ten years, let us get in that period of ten years twice the number of letters without having the work done just as exhaustively, and then in the succeeding ten years whatever is lacking could be filled in. That is the viewpoint I have as a result of the ordinary experience of life, and I think it would be the wisest course. With regard to the academy there has been an effort made to hurry it up. They are not inclined to be quite as exhaustive in the new effort as in the old one. I would not like it to be thought that I want slipshod work. Quite the opposite is what I would like.
General Mulcahy: A question was raised relating to a certain amount of supervision and control, particularly in relation to finance, and reference was made to the Government being very closely in touch with this work. Is the Minister for Education going to control the spelling and the type of writing on the Celtic studies side? Will the Government outline the type of spelling necessary and are they to write in characters of a particular kind?
The Taoiseach: We shall have to leave that to the school itself. One thing I hope the school will do and that is that it will perform some of the functions of an academy and indicate to us a standard with regard to usage. I have in mind a standard in relation to spelling, for instance. I do not think it was ever suggested that we should dictate to them in what particular manner they should carry out their specialised work.
[1382]General Mulcahy: I do not agree with the section. We are not dividing against it, but I do not agree that we should pass it.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Will the Deputy be taken as dissenting?
SECTION 7.Question proposed: “That Section 7 stand part of the Bill”.
General Mulcahy: On Section 7, the establishment orders are going to deal with a certain number of things, such as the appointment and removal of professors, visiting professors and assistants and the admission and dismissal of students. If the professors of the school are to be full-time what are visiting professors and are they to be paid in any way? Are the assistants to be full-time? Under paragraph (i) there is reference to the relations of the school and the governing board thereof with the institute, and with the Minister and the Government. Is there anything particular intended in that? I should like to know whether it is considered that the details of the Bill do not define the relations of the governing body of the school with the Minister and the Government and so on.
The Taoiseach: With regard to the last part of the Deputy's remarks, you will notice that the Bill prescribes certain things in the case of the two schools that are being established directly by the Bill. The various functions, and so on, will have to be indicated. The Bill does indicate the relations of the school and the governing board with the institute and with the Minister and the Government. I do not know whether it might be considered an unnecessary duplication to have that in the orders. It seems to me that the Deputy is making the point that it would not be necessary to do these things inasmuch as they are already prescribed for in advance. I will look into that to see if there [1383] would be unnecessary duplication. The intention was to make sure that in the establishment orders in the new scheme some indication of the relations of the governing body with the Minister, the Government and the institute would be provided in the same way as they are provided for the schools that are being established. But it is possible inasmuch as the Bill is more general, that that particular section may not be necessary.
General Mulcahy: The first part of my question was with regard to visiting professors and assistants.
The Taoiseach: Oh, yes; first of all, with regard to the senior professors, these are intended to be whole-time. With regard to the assistants these may be whole-time or part-time as may be decided by the governing body. With regard to the visiting professors I am not quite sure whether the reference is to professors who might be on leave from their own work and who might come to study with the professors here, or on the other hand, to professors who would be brought over for the purpose of giving occasional lectures. Both of these things might happen. They may be here as students, so to speak, or some might be brought over as members of the academic staff for occasional lectures. In either case obviously these could only be part-time. Whether they would be regarded as whole-time or part-time I could not say now but it would be for a short period of years only that this question would arise.
General Mulcahy: The whole implication of the thing is that the institute is a teaching institute. It will do a certain amount of work and it will do it with the workers in it. Substantially it will be a teaching institution.
The Taoiseach: It can teach advanced students and direct them in methods of research. Nearly always when the students come to a certain stage they have already got a foundation built up and they know what is usually taught in the universities up to the M.A. degree. Then they start [1384] out to work for themselves. As a rule the student does not continue trying to acquaint himself with knowledge that has been already ascertained. He starts at some particular point where there is a difficulty, or in some particular field in which he is interested. I know one student who has made a special study of the Irish system of law. He felt he was fitted for it and he went on with it so that he has made it his own. To that extent there will be teaching.
SECTION 8.Question proposed: “That Section 8 stand part of the Bill.”
Mr. Dillon: Section 8 raises the whole question as to whether it is desirable to have these appointments to an institution of this kind made by a political Government. To make an appointment of this kind directly by the Government has not been a very successful experiment in any country in the world where it has been tried because the Government finds itself subject to all sorts of difficulties. To appoint certain persons all sorts of pressure will be brought to bear; on the other hand pressure will be brought to bear not to appoint certain persons or to get rid of persons whose names for the moment may be unpopular. It is difficult for a popularly elected Government to resist that sort of pressure. While the Government may avoid the grosser results of favouritism, the fact remains that when desirable appointments fall to be made, the colleagues of the Minister for Education in the Cabinet may say to him: “You will not stir up a nest of hornets by appointing so and so; there is just as good a man available to whom there is no objection, but if you appoint the other fellow there is going to be pandemonium.” So the tendency is to choose scholars who are most colourless on the grounds that they are the ones least likely to offend anyone. I do not see why this function should not be relegated to some other body such as the Council of State or the President acting in consultation with the Council of State, [1385] or the council of the Academy subject to the approval of the President of Ireland, in consultation with the Council of State. For although it is true that the Council of State is drawn as at present constituted from much the same kind of people as the Government, there is just one difference, that there are no emoluments attached to the office, and being a member of the body is only an additional burden on the person; so the person on the council does not give a hoot about the public. In that way the council is one stage removed from contact with the electors, and the members are not so subject to pressure as persons depending on passing public approval may be. I therefore suggest to the Minister for Education that he should consider the advisability of taking away from the Government these appointments. If that is not done, the result will be that the quality of the professors when appointed by a properly elected Government will be poorer. The experience gained in every other country in the world gives support to that view. In New York, recently, a man for whom I have no admiration or regard was offered some appointment of the kind in a New York institution. Very vehement pressure was brought to bear on the public authorities to prevent this appointment being made. It might have been very fortunate in the event if the public pressure had been successful, but it was not, because the board which had the ultimate say in the matter was not dependent on public approval. If it had been, it is quite obvious that this appointment would have been cancelled. It was put through because the members of the responsible body were able to say they did not give a hoot for public clamour. Probably the attention of the Prime Minister has not been directed to the case to which I am referring.
The Taoiseach: I think the Deputy indicated here a short time ago that if you are to pay the piper you should have some say about calling the tune. Therefore I do not know any better way than putting on the Government of the day the responsibility before the whole country. An appointment of this kind will not be done quietly, and [1386] if there are any mistake made they will not be made without exposure. I think the best procedure is to put it definitely to the Government to see that the right people are chosen for appointments of this kind. Elsewhere you have other boards and I am not going to say that they do not do their duty well, but in the case of an appointment of this sort everything depends on the people appointed being of the very first class. I would not have moved a finger for the establishment of an institute of this sort if I thought we were going to degenerate into getting second-class men for these appointments. If we are not going to have first-class men for them it would be better that we never had this institute for advanced studies.
The Taoiseach: When all is said and done I think the best course is to put the responsibility on the Government to select the people who have got to fill these chairs and to do that definitely. Let them face their responsibility. If the Government are to give way to pressure of the sort suggested, and appoint people who are not worthy of being appointed, I am afraid that there is not much hope that their other duties will be properly performed either. You must put the responsibility on some one, and my opinion is that there should be an experiment anyway. In the case of the chief professors they should be chosen from the point of view of the standing which they would give to learning and to the reputation they have gained before the world. If we cannot depend on them to do that, then, of course, there is no more to be said.
SECTION 9.(3) The first council shall consist of a chairman and four other members all of whom shall be appointed by the President on the advice of the Government.
[1387] (5) Subject to the provisions of this section in relation to the first council, the council shall consist of one member (who shall be the chairman) appointed by the President on the advice of the Government and two members from each constituent school for the time being established.
The Taoiseach: I move amendment No.3:—
In sub-section (3), page 5, line 45, after the word “Government” to add the words “and of the ex-officio members of the council”, and in sub-section (5), page 5, line 58, after the word “Government” to insert the words “the ex-officio members of the Council”.
This is a simple amendment. It makes provision for the ex-officio members who are set out in Section 10.
General Mulcahy: The Taoiseach calls this a simple amendment. Can he tell us how, in the case of such a long-thought-out scheme, it is possible to have such a simple afterthought as this? I do not think it is a simple afterthought. Originally the council of the institute was to consist of a chairman and four other members appointed by the Government. Does the Taoiseach think it is a simple afterthought to add to that the President of University College, Dublin; the Provost of Trinity College, Dublin, and the President of the Royal Irish Academy? I agree that it is an addition, but it simply makes me creep with regard to the whole scheme if we are to be asked to regard this as a simple little afterthought.
The Taoiseach: I do not know if we need dispute the question whether it is simple or complex. When I used the word “simple” in regard to this amendment I thought it was another amendment that I was dealing with. On the question as to whether it is a thing that should have been thought out in advance, I want to tell the Deputy that we had to make a start. In the case of this Bill we proceeded on the same lines as one would proceed in regard to any other work, [1388] namely, to get something done, and to have it done as well as it could be at the moment. If improvements suggest themselves later, whether they are simple or complex, they can be added. One had to make a start and get a certain amount of work done. In my opinion, the addition of these three names will mean a substantial improvement on the scheme as originally circulated.
General Mulcahy: I hope and trust and prophesy that there will be other simple and equally weighty improvements.
The Taoiseach: I am sure that if we had waited another year there are other improvements which would suggest themselves and which we might include.
Mr. Dillon: Provided the Taoiseach thought of them?
The Taoiseach: I am prepared to take them from any quarter.
Section 9, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 10.The Taoiseach: I move amendment No. 4:—
Before Section 10, page 6, to insert a new section as follows:—
The persons who, for the time being occupy the following offices, namely:—
(a)President of University College, Dublin;
(b)Provost of Trinity College, Dublin, and
(c)President of the Royal Irish Academy,
shall be ex-officio members of the council, and in this Act, the expression “the the ex-officio members of the council” shall be construed accordingly.
The purpose of this amendment is to [1389] facilitate co-operation between those bodies and the institute.
Mr. Dillon: Here again we are up against the evil to which I made reference when discussing the first section of the Bill. Either this is a national institute or it is not, and I do not see why it should not be. Everybody in the State is going to contribute financially to it, and I hope that scholars are going to be found outside the boundaries of Greater Dublin in the hereafter, and that the people coming from other parts of Ireland will be entitled to inclusion in the body of scholars which this institute is designed to produce. Why should the President of University College, Dublin, one of the constituent colleges of the National University of Ireland, be placed on the council of this body to the exclusion of the President of University College, Cork, or the President of University College, Galway? I understood that University College, Galway, was supposed to be the ark of the covenant of the Irish language. It is not getting very much consideration here. Its existence is not even referred to. University College, Cork, has a standing of its own in its own province, but it does not seem to be recognised either. Are we beginning to create a kind of preeminence for the President of University College, Dublin, or why is he, particularly, chosen out as the representative of the National University in perpetuity as an ex officio member of this body? I do not think that is right. I think that the President of University College, Dublin, the President of University College, Cork, and the President of University College. Galway, ought all to be persons well qualified to sit upon this board, and if they are it might be argued that to put them all on would be inexpedient from the point of view of numbers. There ought at least to be a proviso that if the President of University College, Dublin, is first appointed that, on his retirement, his place should be taken by the President of University College, Cork, upon whose retirement the president of University College, Galway, would represent the [1390] National University on this board. I suggest that you should rotate this position of honour and responsibility so that the existence of the three colleges might be recognised. I would be glad to hear the Chancellor of the National University, in his political capacity, tell us why he chooses to select University College, Dublin, specially in preference to the other two constituent colleges of the National University. I think Maynooth is also a constituent college.
Mr. Dillon: It is not in exactly the same position as the colleges in Dublin, Cork, and Galway.
The Taoiseach: I think that the Deputy has more or less answered himself in the ground that he has travelled over. He referred to the question of numbers and rotation. There is one element, and that is space, which in time may be an important factor. The President of University College, Dublin, was chosen because he is here at hand. You have here in Dublin one of the biggest colleges in the country. If the professors and students in it, or in Trinity College, are working in co-operation with the professors of the institute, carrying out a piece of work, and if the manuscripts that are being worked on are mostly in Dublin, and available here, then I think everybody will agree that if one person is to be picked out it is the person who is on the spot because he will be the more readily available for meetings and so on. There is also the question that we do not know what the future is going to mean with regard to the development of the National University.
General Mulcahy: It may disappear entirely at this rate.
The Taoiseach: No, quite the opposite. The Deputy spoke earlier about professors and their work. This is the place where, through the work of the institute, further material for professors will be made available, and where some of the work that the Deputy thinks ought to be done in the colleges [1391] might possibly be done. We do not know whether we are always going to have a federal university as we have at present, but we have two colleges in Dublin that are likely to remain here. Their association with the institute is very important. You cannot have what is suggested unless you want to have a body that will not be able to meet regularly. Owing to the distance that the presidents of these colleges would have to travel every time they came to a meeting it would mean a day or two away from their own work. On the whole, I think this is sufficiently representative. Besides that, the work that would be done by the two colleges mentioned would be work done in co-operation with the institute. While we are binding the professors to give lectures in the two colleges in Dublin, they ought not to consider that we think they should not give occasional lectures also in the other colleges. We are not actually binding them to do that, but we think that if it could be managed they should do it. There ought to be co-operation, so far as it can be secured, between the work of the corresponding faculties in the universities with the work that will be done by the schools. Owing to the advisability of not having a large number we have had to make a selection, and the obvious selection to make was the president of the college at hand.
Mr. Dillon: My own experience of the Taoiseach leads me to believe that he could argue anything. He urges the inclusion of the President of University College, Dublin, to the exclusion of the President of University College, Galway, on the ground that we are nearer the manuscripts here. There is also a function of the institute to see to the phonetic investigation of existing Irish dialects and the recording of the living Irish speech in all Irish-speaking districts, the collection and study of Irish place names, and a variety of other matters, which bespeak a familiar and day-to-day contact with the living language or the vernacular of the people amongst whom you move. Whilst it may be true that the President of University College, [1392] Dublin, is closer to the manuscripts, who will deny that the President of University College, Galway, is closer to the living language? I have no doubt that the Taoiseach would argue angrily if we were responsible for these proposals, that we were trying to make an archaic exhibit of the Irish language and turning our backs upon the living thing. I think this proposal ought to be reconsidered. There might, for instance, be a rotational scheme. There is at present in operation a rotational scheme by which it is provided that the Vice-Chancellor of the University is from time to time the President of one college or the other. Seriously, I suggest to the Taoiseach that it may be desirable that the voice of Galway should be heard on the council of this body. I cannot imagine why it is the Taoiseach cannot see that.
The Taoiseach: There is a host of people whom it would be advisable to have on this council, but we cannot have them all.
Mr. Dillon: I do not want to have them all put on to it. Is there nothing to be said for having the National University representative on this council at one time from Dublin, at another time from Galway, and at another time from Cork?
The Taoiseach: On the whole, I think it is better to have the person who is on the spot and who will have the manuscripts available.
Mr. Dillon: In existing circumstances that may be true, but, at the same time, it would be more desirable if we had a worthy president coming from each of these colleges at fixed intervals to make the interests and desires of his particular part of the university vocal on the council of the institute.
General Mulcahy: The Taoiseach said that Deputy Dillon had answered himself. But so many interesting things have been unexpectedly stated since Deputy Dillon answered himself that I do not quite recollect at what particular point he answered himself. I should like to answer Deputy Dillon. This amendment is brought forward with the President of University College, [1393] Dublin, at the top of it, because this whole scheme should be under the presidency of University College, Dublin. The Provost of Trinity College is brought in simply because the theory is that you have to treat one university like the other. It is not disparaging in any way to the work in Trinity College or the position of Trinity College in this country to say that our advanced students in Celtic studies, whether in old or modern Irish, are not going to come from Trinity College, but are going to come from the National University.
Mr. Dillon: Trinity College gave a job to one of the greatest scholars in modern Irish when there was no job to be got in the National University.
General Mulcahy: It is not a disparagement to say that you are not going to get advancement of your Gaelic studies in the advanced realms in any place except in University College, Dublin, as the national headquarters and centre, and that is why the situation is as it is here. Trinity College is only thrown in, as it were, to balance up that particular picture under this scheme. The President of the Royal Irish Academy is thrown in because there is some of this work that can be done and would be done there if the main scheme was put in the proper place—in the National University—and the work which the Irish Academy is doing to some extent, and it could do more, would continue to be done there.
The Taoiseach: I suppose we will have only to agree to differ about that. I think the Deputy is completely and fundamentally wrong when he says that this is work which could be done in University College, Dublin. The National University has quite enough work to do with the particular functions which it has in hands at present without adding on this specialised work. That is where I differ with the Deputy. I think that mistakes have been made in the past by encumbering it with work which would be better done by specialist bodies.
General Mulcahy: Work of what kind?
[1394]The Taoiseach: I will not go into that.
General Mulcahy: The Taoiseach does not say that it was encumbering the college to put agriculture into it?
The Taoiseach: I am not talking about agriculture, as a matter of fact. With regard to this question of the President, I can tell the Deputy that I did not put that in without any thought. It was the natural thing to do. We want a fairly small body. We want to get the work done, and it is advisable that the people on the council should be available and near at hand. I think that that would be sufficiently representative and that contact can be made with the other colleges, such as Maynooth. There is a good deal of valuable Irish manuscripts, for instance, in Maynooth. Contact can be made in the ordinary way. If will be the business of the professors in the institute and of the governing body to try to make the necessary contacts.
The Taoiseach: I move amendment No. 5:—
At the end of the section to add a new sub-section as follows:—
(6) The provisions of this section shall not apply to ex-officio members of the council.
That provides that the ex-officio members will be members of the council, as long as they hold the qualifying office. During the time they hold that office they will be members of the council.
Section 10, as amended, put and agreed to.
SECTION 11.(1) Any member of the Council may at any time, resign his office as such member by letter sent——
(a) in the case of a member appointed by the President, to the Taoiseach for submission to the Government,
(b) in any other case, to the Governing Board of the Constituent School which appointed him.
[1395]The Taoiseach: I move amendment No. 6:—
In sub-section (1), page 6, line 39, after the word “Council” to insert the words and brackets “(other than an ex-officio member of the Council)”
It is not contemplated that an ex-officio member can resign. If he does not wish to act, he simply does not attend. I imagine that such a member would have no objection to serving.
Mr. Dillon: Does the Minister think that it is a wise thing to deprive him of his right to resign? Can the Minister for Education not contemplate a situation in which the Government, departing very much from the common purposes we have here, proceeded to degrade the Academy, and the President of University College, the Provost of Trinity College, and the President of the Royal Irish Academy, desiring to mark the disapproval of scholars for the course of conduct being pursued, felt that they were free to act effectively inasmuch as their positions were secure—to act in the name of scholarship—and formally decline to ramain members of the body? Does the Taoiseach not think it might be a useful thing to leave that kind of power in their hands as a deterrent to any Government, seeking to shelter under their reputation, from packing the governing board with undesirable persons? I do not know that it would not be a desirable thing to give them the right to resign in case of a public scandal of that kind or in case of gross misconduct. I do not know that these three persons are persons to whom you might not safely leave that power, because it is highly unlikely that all three would elect to use the power improperly at the same time. If one sought, from some improper motive, to resign, the refusal of the other two would make manifest the impropriety of the motive that led him to resign.
The Taoiseach: Where you have an ex-officio member, that is, a member appointed by virtue of his holding a certain office, I do not know how you could make that tally with the power of resignation. If a protest such as [1396] the Deputy mentions becomes necessary, it could be made in a public manner by the persons wishing to make the protest saying that they did not propose to attend during their period of office. I think it is better to leave the matter as it stands.
General Mulcahy: There is no penalty for non-attendance if they do not agree to attend?
Section 11, as amended, and Section 12 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
SECTION 13.(3) The quorum for a meeting of the council shall be the least whole number which exceeds half the membership of the council.
The Taoiseach: I move amendment No. 7:—
In sub-section (3), page 7, to delete all from the words “the least” in line 13 to the end of the sub-section, and substitute the words “a number equal to the total number of constituent schools for the time being in existence increased by one”.
A smaller quorum than that which is provided for in the Bill is thought to be advisable. It is arranged in this way. If there are two schools, then the quorum will be three. If there are three schools, the quorum will be four. It is considered that that is a smaller quorum than was originally provided for, and it is the simplest way in which we can provide for a quorum.
Mr. Dillon: I think it is an improvement.
Section 13, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
SECTION 14.Question proposed: “That Section 14 stand part of the Bill.”
[1397]Mr. Dillon: I wish to give notice of my intention to move on the next Stage to delete all the words after the word “institute” in sub-section (3), because an attempt is being made to carry into the Bill a most objectionable precedent established in certain other Bills—that is, to provide that the seal of the institute shall not only be judicially recognised but shall be taken as proof of the truth of everything alleged under it unless the contrary is proved. It is quite an undesirable provision. I am giving notice that I shall move to have that provision deleted, and the Minister can consult with his experts meanwhile.
Question put and declared carried.
SECTION 15.(3) The council, in carrying out the duties imposed on them by sub-section (1) of this section, shall not provide for the erection or acquisition of any building without the concurrence of the Minister for Finance.
(5) If the governing board of a constituent school is dissatisfied with the provision or proposed provision or the maintenance by the council in pursuance of this section of buildings to house such constituent school or with the provision or proposed provision by the council in pursuance of this section for such constituent school of the things mentioned in sub-section (2) of this section, such governing board may appeal to the Minister and thereupon the Minister, after consultation with the Minister for Finance, shall give such directions in relation to the subject-matter of such appeal as he shall think proper, and such directions shall be final and shall be binding on and be complied with by the council and the said governing board.
The Taoiseach: I move amendment No. 8:—
In sub-section (3), page 7, line 53, after the word “without” to insert the words “the approval of the Minister given with”.
It is desirable to have a common scheme running through the Bill. [1398] Wherever the institute is dealing with the Government in any way, it will deal with one Minister only, namely, the Minister for Education. Then later it is provided that if there are any financial implications involved, the Minister for Education shall have the concurrence of the Minister for Finance.
Mr. Dillon: This section deals with the housing accommodation for the institute. Might I ask the Taoiseach, when it comes to consultation with a view to providing for accommodation, to consider the architectural possibilities of this plan? In the initial stages, when the erection of an immense establishment is not contemplated, I would suggest that an effort should be made to rescue from impending destruction a group of the finer Georgian houses in Dublin, some of which still retain many of their splendid characteristics, particularly in plaster work and features of that kind. In their redecoration and adaptation for the purposes of the institute, I would urge that outrages should not be perpetrated on the structure such as sometimes happens when a building is taken over by a Government Department. I would urge that these buildings should, in fact, be handsomely restored, as some of the great houses in London have been restored, to the condition in which they were originally used by those who built them, so that we might have in the institute not only learning, but something of the native beauty which the architects of this country produced. I do not know if the Prime Minister saw, during any of his recent visits to London, some of the finer houses that were rescued in that way like Winchester House. They have been completely restored and adapted as commercial offices while retaining the nature of great residences such as no private individual could possibly contemplate maintaining in modern days. I think the opportunity should be taken to restore some of the old residences of this State as an example of typical Dublin architecture which is found nowhere else in the world except in Dublin.
The Taoiseach: I shall keep the Deputy's suggestion in mind, but the suitability of the accommodation is [1399] the chief factor to be considered in this connection. I would say that the institute should be suitably placed with reference to libraries, the University College, etc. However, the Deputy's suggestion conveys an idea which may be used in another connection, and I shall bear it in mind.
General Mulcahy: When the Taoiseach was speaking on this matter, his mind seemed to turn towards Merrion Square. He has no particular objection to Stephen's Green?
The Taoiseach: No. I thought it was the least objectionable place from the point of view of indicating beforehand a place that might be chosen.
General Mulcahy: Because Government Buildings are near?
The Taoiseach: No, for other reasons which the Deputy has only to think of for a moment.
The Taoiseach: I move amendment No. 9:—
To delete sub-section (5), page 8.
This is the question of appeal. Instead of having that here in this particular connection, we are having a general right of appeal. Wherever any dispute arises in regard to any particular functions, where they overlap, between a governing body and the council, there is a general appeal to the Minister afterwards. The general appeal would cover this particular one, so we are taking out the particular appeal here and covering it by the general appeal later.
Mr. Dillon: It would be necessary to regard carefully the words at the end:
... and such directions shall be final and shall be binding on and be complied with by the council and the said governing board.
Is this being deleted? These words are not being brought in somewhere else? The danger is that the Minister may tie himself up and not be able to amend any decision. I suggest that this case [1400] should be examined carefully. This says that, where a decision has been made on the appeal, such decision shall be final, which may mean that the Minister would bind himself by a law as binding as the laws of the Medes and Persians. Once having given the decision, it could not be altered. The word “final” should be struck out.
The Taoiseach: We might consider that.
Section 15, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 18.(5) If any dispute shall arise as to the claim of any person to, or the amount of, any pension, gratuity or allowance payable in pursuance of a scheme under this section, such dispute shall be determined by the Minister for Finance, whose decision thereon shall be final.
In sub-section (5), page 9, line 8, to delete the word “determined”, and in lieu thereof to insert the words “submitted to the Minister for determination.”
The idea is to have only one Minister dealing with this matter. We do not wish to have the Minister for Finance coming directly in touch; where he comes in, it will be in concurrence with the Minister for Education.
Mr. Dillon: That is not what the amendment does. The sub-section reads at present:—
If any dispute shall arise as to the claim of any person to, or the amount of, any pension, gratuity or allowance payable in pursuance of a scheme under this section, such dispute shall be determined by the Minister for Finance, whose decision thereon shall be final.
You strike out the word “determined” and this amendment says you insert in lieu thereof that such dispute [1401] shall be “submitted to the Minister for determination” by the Minister for Finance, whose decision thereon shall be final.
The Taoiseach: That is to say that the Minister for Education is merely the channel by which the Minister for Finance is approached.
Mr. Dillon: What happens here is that your amendment provides now that the Minister for Finance submits the dispute to the Minister Education.
The Taoiseach: Surely that cannot be so.
Mr. Dillon: Well, that is what the amendment says. The word “determined” is taken out, and instead there is inserted “submitted to the Minister for determination”, making the section read: “such dispute shall be submitted to the Minister for determination by the Minister for Finance.”
The Taoiseach: “shall be submitted to the Minister” comma.
The Taoiseach: “shall be submitted to the Minister for determination by the Minister for Finance.”
Mr. Dillon: So that is the way it is to be read? They bring the dispute to the Minister for Education who refers it to the Minister for Finance for determination?
The Taoiseach: I hope it reads like that.
Mr. Dillon: Then this says that the decision of the Minister for Finance shall be final.
The Taoiseach: We shall consider that word “final.”
Mr. Dillon: Is it intended that the Minister for Finance shall determine matters in dispute, arising from pensions, gratuities or allowances, or that the Minister for Education shall determine them?
[1402]The Taoiseach: I think it is better to have the Minister for Finance determine them. Naturally, the Minister for Education would confer with him.
Section 18, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 21.It shall be the duty of the Council, on the recommendation of the Governing Board of a Constituent School, to provide for the publication, in the manner stated in such recommendation and at the expense of such Constituent School, of contributions to learning which are the results of study or research carried on in or under the authority of such Constituent School.
The Taoiseach: I move amendment No. 11:—
To delete line 60 and substitute the following words and sub-sections:—
either in or under the authority of such Constituent School, or independently thereof but in relation to subjects included in the functions and duties of such Constituent School.
(2) The Council may, if they so think fit, provide for the issuing of learned journals or other periodical publications and may provide for the inclusion therein of any such contributions to learning as are mentioned in the foregoing sub-section of this section.
(3) The Council may provide scholarships to be held in any of the Constituent Schools.
The purpose of this is to make it possible to publish other material besides that which has been actually the result of study in the school itself.
Mr. Dillon: The amendment goes much further.
The Taoiseach: There is the question of periodicals.
Mr. Dillon: And the provision of scholarships. What has the Minister in mind there?
[1403]The Taoiseach: First of all, it may be necessary to provide some scholarships to enable particularly gifted students to continue a particular work for a further period. Otherwise, they may have to abandon their studies and earn their living in another manner. If a student is particularly fitted for a particular piece of work planned by the director, the director might bring him in as an assistant, or might find it more suitable to give him a scholarship. It may also happen in the early stages that one may wish to draw attention to the school. For instance, if it were known that there were students in other countries and if it were desirable, in order to spread the fame of the institute, to bring such students here, this will make it possible. That may result in the training of possible future professors in those countries; they would ultimately be working in connection with the school and would, perhaps, send some of their own students to the school later on. This will give power to grant such scholarships as would enable such students to come to this country. Naturally, that power will be exercised with very great care, and there will be no question of undue liberality.
Mr. Dillon: Is the word “scholarship” anywhere defined by statute?
Mr. Dillon: If it is not, that should be done. I always understood that a scholarship envisaged the offering of a prize for public competition. It not that so?
The Taoiseach: I do not think it is necessary.
Mr. Dillon: I never heard of a scholarship which was not made the subject of a qualifying examination of some kind or other. Has the Minister? I can understand what the Minister has in mind. Supposing a student does turn up and it is desired that he should go on with his work: if they attempt to give him a scholarship they may be in much the same position as a board of health which tries to build a cottage for an individual tenant, and which is told by the Department of Local Government and Public Health that they [1404] cannot build the cottage for that particular tenant, that they must build the cottage where they think the particular tenant would want it, and if there are two or three other people making application the applications must be judged on their merits. If you create a scholarship for AB because you think he is the best qualified, and CD and EF apply for it, you may be put in the position that EF will get the scholarship which you might not have created if it were not to accommodate AB.
The Taoiseach: I do not think that would present insuperable difficulty, because obviously what the council or governing body would do in a case like that is that if they had clearly in mind the type of student they wanted they would probably publicly invite applications and they would decide in accordance with the qualifications who was to get the scholarship. If they has A in mind for the scholarship, and if in response to that advertisement B turned up who, in fact, was better qualified, they would have to take B, and I do not think they would have any regret for it, except that perhaps B might not be as useful from the point of view of bringing the institute to the knowledge of other countries and so on. He might not be as valuable from the institute point of view perhaps. I do not know if the word “scholarship” has been defined legally anywhere, or if the use of it in a statute would necessarily mean that it was to be a competition.
Mr. Esmonde: The word “scholarship” has been defined in income-tax cases.
The Taoiseach: Yes. I wonder whether the definition would not be very much ad rem there. I do not know. I will make some inquiries about it.
Section 21, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 23.The Taoiseach: I move amendment No. 12:—
[1405] Before Section 23 to insert a new section as follows:—
If the governing board of a constituent school is dissatisfied with any action in relation to such board or such school taken or proposed to be taken under this Act by the council or with the refusal of the council to take under this Act any such action, the said governing board may appeal to the Minister, and thereupon the Minister, with (in case finance) the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, shall give his decision thereon, and such decision shall be final.
This amendment gives the general right of appeal which we are substituting for the particular one with regard to buildings, I think it was, in another section. If there are disputes we are providing a method by which they can be settled definitely.
Section 23, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 25.Question proposed: “That Section 25 stand part of the Bill.”
Mr. Dillon: There is a point I want to raise in connection with this section. Sub-section (3) says that gifts accepted by the institute under this section shall be applied for the school for which they were given and all other gifts so accepted shall be applied for such one or more of the following purposes and (where appropiate) in such proportions as the Minister, with the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, shall determine, that is to say, for the purposes of the institute generally or for the purposes of one or more particular constituent schools. I want to put it to the Prime Minister that where you do discover an old-fashioned patron coming along and giving the council of this institute a gift which does not come out of public funds at all, it is not a good thing to be bringing the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Education into it because [1406] it is now none of his business. It is quite right for the Minister for Education to follow public money and to say: “Full as is my confidence in the council, still I have a duty as a public trustee to see that public money is spent in accordance with certain defined priciples.” But here is money that is not public money, money that the council has attracted to itself, and you are deliberately going in and gratuitously constituting yourself the trustee of moneys which were deliberately not handed to you by the person who was making the endowment. It is quite open to the person who made the endowment to give the money to the Minister for Education and to say: “Use that for an educational purpose.” Then, of course, the Minister would be the trustee of it. But that is not the case here. The patron goes direct to the council and gives the money to them and they are the trustees of it. I submit to the Minister that they should be trusted to dispose of it properly without interference by the Minister and the more of that that comes along the better it will be. I suggest to the Minister that, far from desiring to interfere he should say to the council, if he is consulted about some scheme which is to be financed out of an endowment: “Do not bother me about that. That is your business. I have got quite enough to do to look after the moneys I give and to see you handle them without unduly restricting your activities. Here you are perfectly free. This is an endowment given to yourselves. You are a corporate body. You have got all the powers of a trustee; go and exercise them and, if anyone sues you hereafter for breach of trust, do not be passing the baby back to me and say you committed a breach of trust because the Minister for Education directed you to do so.” Remember, that is interesting. Suppose the Minister did something which is ultra vires or consented to something which resulted in a loss a nice point would arise as to whether he should not be jointed in an action for breach of trust and damages recovered against him. But, leaving that aspect out of the question altogether, I think it is undesirable for the Minister to be poking his nose in where public [1407] duty imposes no obligation upon him to do so.
The Taoiseach: While there is a good deal, I suppose, to be said for the point of view taken by the Deputy, on the other hand, you must remember that the council is composed in a certain way, and we do not know what its leanings would be from time to time in regard to one school or another. A number of schools would be competing, naturally, for any money that would be going. In the case of a donor who specifies a certain school there is an end to it. That is finished. It is only where it is not apportioned between the schools that the council and the Minister would come in. Perhaps the Minister for Finance ought not to be there, but I take it that the idea of bringing in the Minister for Education would be to bring him in as a person who was particularly responsible for the co-ordination of the work of the separate schools—a sort of outside umpire—to try and see that in the case of the allocation of moneys which became available on one school would be unduly favoured just because it happened that the majority of the council were in favour of that school at a particular time. It is difficult sometimes to secure that a proposal would not be impeached from one aspect or another but perhaps the difficulty the Deputy sees could be got over to some extent. Perhaps we could arrange a compromise, if we kept the Minister for Finance out of it. He would be interested particularly, for instance, if a project came from a certain school which needed funds. He might say: “I will manage that very nicely by compelling this fund to be distributed in a particular way and made available for a particular purpose.”
The Taoiseach: I find it very difficult to get a completely satisfactory solution. I am willing to meet the Deputy unless there is some consideration which I do not see at this moment.
Mr. Dillon: Let neither of us make concessions at this stage. I will put [1408] down an amendment for the next stage, proposing to leave sub-section (3) out. I think the Government should not come in there at all.
The Taoiseach: Would the Deputy agree that it is desirable that money like that should not be allocated to one school just because for the moment there was a majority on the council in favour of that school? The Deputy can answer back that it would be a pity that money should be allocated to a particular school just because the Minister for Education for the time being might be in favour of it.
The Taoiseach: Suppose we were to leave it “with the approval of the Minister”?
Mr. Dillon: The Minister charged me with answering myself. I think the Minister answered himself. I think he is quite right in what he says. A project is coming forward; the Minister for Finance is remonstrating with the Minister for Education that he cannot provide money for that project. At this juncture some benevolent creature comes along and gives £25,000 to the academy. The Minister for Finance says to the Minister for Education: “Go to blazes. You have been pestering me for money for this scheme. There is £25,000; go and use that.” The Minister for Education is in the deplorable position that he is bound to confess to the Minister for Finance that he is in a position to force the council to appropriate that £25,000 for this scheme. Suppose the Minister for Education was in a position to say to the Minister for Finance: “I cannot make the council use the £25,000 for that purpose. That is their money. It is not State money at all, and they will simply tell me to go to blazes if I try to force them; but let us come half way; give me £15,000 and I will try to get £10,000 from the academy for this particular purpose; but do not send me down to them in order to try and take these moneys from them, because, if I were to do so, I would be kicked out.” I know the Minister for Education too well to ask him to commit himself now to this thing, because I know that he is too cautious.
[1409]The Taoiseach: Is it not advisable to be cautious?
SECTION 26(3) The accounts kept in pursuance of this section shall be submitted annually by the Council to the Comptroller and Autitor-General for audit at such time as the Minister for Finance shall direct and the said accounts, when so audited, shall together with the report of the comptroller and Auditor-General thereon be presented to the Minister who shall cause copies thereof to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas.
The Taoiseach: I move amendment No. 13.
In sub-section (3), page 11, line 10, after the word “as” to insert the words “the Minister, with the concurrence of.”
Mr. Dillon: I think we just discussed this on the Financial Resolution.
An Ceann Comhairle: Yes, it is the question of the concurrence of the Minister concerned with the Minister of Finance.
Mr. Dillon: I am particularly concerned to avoid the duty being imposed on the bursar of the institute of having to attend before the Public Accounts Committee.
The Taoiseach: My information was that it would not be necessary for him to do so. However, I shall look into the matter, from the point of view of procedure, to see whether or not he should be forced to come before the Public Accounts Committee. My information was that it would not follow at all from this.
Mr. Dillon: My only reason for saying this is that sub-section (3) says that: “the accounts kept in pursuance of this section shall be submitted annually by the council to the Comptroller and Auditor-Generl for audit at such times as the Minister for Finance shall direct and that the said accounts, when so audited, shall, together with the report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon, be [1410] presented to the Minister who shall cause copies thereof to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas.” I presume that, if these copies are to be laid before each House of the Oureachtas, I, as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, would be entitled to raise the matter.
The Taoiseach: I think that the Deputy would have to bring the matter before the House before doing so.
Mr. Dillon: Well, as far as I remember, we had a case in connection with the Dairy Disposals Board in which, after a long and sanguinary dispute, we put certain things before them that they should do, and they are now doing them.
The Taoiseach: Well, I shall look into the matter.
An Ceann Comhairle: Meantime, I assume that the amendment is agreed to?
The Taoiseach: I take it that the Deputy agrees with me that these perticulars should not be here?
Mr. Dillon: Certainly. I think it should be something like the conditions under the old Congested Districts Board.
Section 26, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 27.(1) The Council shall, in every financial year, submit to the Government a report of the work of the Institute and the Constituent Schools for the next previous financial year.
The Taoiseach: I move amendment No. 14:—
In sub-section (1), page 11, line 15, to delete the word “submit” and substitute in lieu thereof the words “present to the Minister for submission.”
Mr. Dillon: Is there an obligation on the Minister to submit?
The Taoiseach: It is a question of making the submission to the Minister.
Mr. Aiken: Yes, for submission to the Government. In other words, the report shall be presented to the Minister for submission to the Government.
[1411]The Taoiseach: The report of the accounts would have to be submitted.
Mr. Aiken: It is merely a question of the channel of communications. It would not be direct, but through the Minister concerned.
Section 27, as amended, agreed to.
Section 28 and 29 and Title of the Bill agreed to.
Bill reported, with amendments.
An Ceann Comhairle: When is it proposed to take the Report Stage?
Mr. Dillon: And on re-committal?
The Taoiseach: We can re-commit the Bill. There are a few amendments that we had not ready before to-day. I have indicated some of them, such as where there is a question as to an appointment by the President on the advice of the Government, and whether it is necessary that certain words should be inserted therein. I think I have indicated the point as to whether or not it would be advisable that the Government to go into this matter at all. I think it is advisable that the Government should not come into this matter at all, and that where the Government gives advice to the President, and he acts on that advice, the Government should not come into it.
Mr. Dillon: What has become of your Council of State, if so?
The Taoiseach: It has performed all the functions of the Constitution that it was intended to perform.
Mr. Dillon: I think its functions have become so attenuated that, even in the matter of public ceremonies, its existence has been forgotten. I think that in the case of the last two public ceremonies that took place here they were forgotten.
The Taoiseach: Perhaps the Deputy might tell me privately about these cases.
[1412]Mr. Dillon: At any rate, I think that the President should act on the advice of the Council of State.
The Taoiseach: As a matter of fact, I think that that might be unconstitutional.
Mr. Dillon: Well, at any rate, we will have this matter up this day week.
Report Stage ordered for Wednesday, 24th April, 1940.
The Dáil, accounting to order, went into Committee on Finance and resumed consideration of the Estimates for Public Services.
Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That a sum not exceeding £60,085 be granted to compete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for Salaries and Expense in connection with Gaeltacht Services, including Housing Grants. —(Minister for Local Government and Public Health—Mr. Ruttledge.)
Seosamh O Mongáin: Duine ar bith a léighfeadh an Tuairisc Oifigiúil cheapfadh sé go raibh mise a cheapadh go mbeadh £130 le fáil in aisce o Choimisiún na Talmhan ar na tighthe a dhéanfaidís-san. Híor cheapas, ach bhí mé aaga cur míniú go raibh an £90 bhí dhá fháil ag na daone sa mbliain 1929, nuair a cuireadh an tAcht seo Thithe na Gaeltachta i bhféim cho maith le £130 anois agus caithfe mé sin a mhíniú. Nuair a thosuigh an tAcht gheobhfá có-abhar tighe, idir adhmad agus slinn agus gach uile rud eile, péint agus cement, agus fágfaí ar an spota a mbeadh an teach le déanamh é ar £93. Anuridh, chosaineodh an t-abhar céanna, fágtha ar spota an tighe, £132. Mar sin, spáineann sé sin go bhfuil an tAcht faoi láthair os cionn £40, ar a laighead, níos measa ná bhí sé i 1929.
[1413] Anois, i 1920, bhí dream Fianna Fáil ar an taobh seo den Teach agus dream Chumann na nGaedheal ar Thaobh an Riaghaltais den Teach. Sin le rá, isiad and dream a bhfuil mise ar a dtaoch a thugisteach an tacht seo. Dubhairt dream Fianna Fáil an t-am sin nach ndéanfaí aon teach, nach raigh nuid ag tabhairt ár ndóthain airgid in aisce uainn. Ach, céard atá le rá anois acu nuair atá siad féin i bhféim agus an t-airgead níos lugha acu de £40 ar a t-aighead? Mar sin déarfainnse go mba ceart don Riaghaltas, má tá siad ag iarraidh tighthe a dhéanamh sa nGaeltacht, a misneach a thógáil agus £130 ar a laighead a thabhairt ar na tighthe agus £20 ar an dá fhail, an fhail mhuice agus an ghail chearc. Leis sin féin a dhéannamh ní bheadh siad blas néos fearr ná bhí muid nuair bhí muide féin i bhféim. Ach tá £90 le fáil o Choimisiún na Talmhan faoi Acht eile le teach a dhéanamh agus níl call fail mhuice na fail cearc a dhéanamh as an airgead sin.
Anois faoi na déantais. Ceapann muintir Dhún na ngall go bhfuil. éad ormas faoi'n méid atá siad fháil. Níl. Ba mhaith liomsa dá bhfaghad siad na céadta mílte, ach más le haghaidh na gaeltachta atá sé ní bheinna sásta dá bhfaghadh siad san an mhuc uilig agus gan a thabhairt dúinne ach píosa den earrball. Gan aimhreas, sin é atá dá dhéanamh. Anois, nach i gConamara atá fíor-dhéantas bhréidin na tíre—an stuf nar chlis ariamh, an stuf nar teastuigh Bradford dyes ná a leighide uaidh; fíor-olann na caorach, dubh agus bán; bun an lile agus barr an fharaoigh le n-a dhathú; an sgrath cloch freisin agus gach dath eile go dtí an neanntóg. Ní theastuíonn inspectors ná factories ná rud ar bith as tír isteach leis an obair seo a mhúnadh do na daoine. Ach tá an oiread shoddy genteel dhá bhrugh isteach orainn agus a rá gurb é déantas na tíre é go bhfuil sé ag brugh amach fíor-dhéantas na tíre. Dá dtagadh an tAire nó duine dá dhaaream ag cruinniú chaiplíní Chonamara an diardaon deiridh de Lúnas, d'fheicfeadh sé gur fíor an méid atá mé a rá agus an méid atámuid a dhéanamh. Ach mara bhfaghmuid beagán congnaimh beidh sé cho deacair an fíor-stuf seo fháil go gairid is nach [1414] féidir é fháil. Tá leaghadh chubhar na habhann ag teacht air, faríor, gan duine le n-a shábháil.
Mr. Dockrell: The most important point in connection with this Estimate from my point of view is the Government's administration of what ought to be a business proposition in a most unbusinesslike way. I have already called attention repeatedly to the taking of this Vote before the stock in the Central Marketing Depôt has been ascertained, and I have said before that if this were a commercial undertaking, the presenting by the directors of the accounts, the stock of the year not having been ascertained, would be regarded as a piece of impudence.
I wish to repeat that, and to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if it is going to be the deliberate practice of this Department to get this Vote through before the stock is ascertained. Without that information it is rather difficult to criticise the Vote. At the same time, some comments can be passed on it. Taking the debit side of the account, and totting it up, I make out workers' wages to amount to £28,000, commissions to £8,000, and miscellaneous items to £500. The total for wages at the Central Marketing Depôt amounts to £4,967, advertising to £1,700, and general expenses £3,250. The total provision for rural industries amounts to £61,336. All these items amount to £107,000. In the Appropriations-in-Aid are given the sales, less workers' wages, commission and other items. I add these to the debit side, bringing sales to £72,500. Deducting that sum from £107,000 leaves nearly £35,000 that has to be provided by the taxayers in order that the workers should get £28,000 in wages. Nobody would contend that these workers are overpaid. What the account appears to show to the ordinary business person is that the department has to spend £1 of the taxpayers' money in order to give the worker 16/- in wages. It would really be cheaper to pension these people.
The erux of the matter is that it is not run in a businesslike way, or with any vision. I understand that there are independent firms competing with the [1415] Gaeltacht industries, and one of their complaints—I will not say that it is so in every case—is thata they may have original designs, and that the Gaeltacht industries are brought in to compete with patterns belonging to them. It is most undesirable that money provided by the State should be used to compete with private enterprise, and in many cases merely used to pull down the rate which is obtained for the goods. I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary will complain that the reverse obtains, and that he is driven down below cost by these firms. On the figures I read out, the Department does not cover cost of materials and worker's wages, while nothing is provided in the way of overhead expenses. That is a most undesirable state of affairs. It comes in under some new Government plan.
Surely there is some way by which the originality and the designs of out side firms could be used in conjunction with State enterprise in two industries which are really intended to try to help dwellers in the Gaeltacht. The Government might merely give sustenance, while independent firms who desired might employ the people and make a success of these industries. It should be possible to associate them in some way. I do not know in what way the Parliamentary Secretary could do it, but the matter should be explored. If that is not possible, surely some other line might be considered. we heard complaints from time to time that the yarn for these industries had to be imported. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary could tell us whether labour in these areas could be absorbed by providing fishing boats, and putting the people into other occupations. I am not suggesting that fishing is a new occupation in these districts, but that modern fishing materials which are at present beyond their resources, might be provided. It seems desirable to have an entire change in the present system, unless the Government is trying to stifle private enterprise. If that is the intention, then I suggest that the last stage would be worse than the first.
Cormac Ua Breisleáin: Níl rún agam [1416] cur isteach ró-fhada a dhéanamh ar am no ar obair na Dála ach ba mhaith liom cupla focal a ráar an Mheastachán seo. Gidh go bhfuil an Meastachán le haghaidh Seeirghísí na gaeltachta £6,000 níos lugha i mbliadha nábhí sé anuraigh, tá lutháir mhór orm go bhfuil caingean an Rúnaí Pháirliminte don Aire Tailte aag dul chun sochair, do na daonibh ins na ceanntair chumhanga mar gheall ar thiaonnscail atá sé ag cur ar bun ins na háiteacha sin.
Beidh na monarcháin úra in Ath na Coire agus i gCill Chártha i nGaeltacht Thírchonaill ina gcuideadh mhilltineach do na ceanntair mhóra seo agus tá achan réasún ag muinntir na Gaeltachta a bheith sásta leis, agus buidheach do Rialtas an lae indiu. Bhí na Teachtaíar an taoch eile den Teach ag fáil lochta ar chuid oibre Roinn na Gaeltachta agus ar an laghdú i Meastachán na bliann seo. Acht má chuireann muid i gcomporáid an méid airgid atáthar a chaitheadh ar Sheirbhésí na Gaeltachta i mbliana leis an méid a caitheadh in am Rialtas Chumann na nGaedheal, tuigfidh muid gur mói bhfad an cúram agus an aire atá Rialtas an lae indiu a thabhairt don Ghaeltacht.
Tá fihios againn uilig gur ceist aimhréiteach ceist na Gaeltachta do Rialtas ar bith agus seachas sin féin tá cógháirdeachas na ndaoine uilig tuillte ag an Rúnaí Pháirliminte agus ag an Roinn mar gheall ar an obair shocharach atá siad a dhéanamh do cheanntair chumhanga na Gaeltachta. Chnídhim cógháirdeachas fosta le línightheóirí na Roinne mar gheall ar thréithe agus líniú na mbainín-éadaighe olla atáfíor-mhaith agus bheir clú agus cáil d'ár dtír. Tá buidheachas an Tiche tuillte ag an Rúnaí Páirliminte mar gheall ar an tuairisc iomlán aithgiorrach a thug sé dúinn ar chuid oibre a Roinne—obair atáag déanamh maith mhór don Ghaeltacht. Tuigeann muinntir na Gaeltachta go bhfuil an Rialtas seo ag déanamh a ndícheall ar a son agus tá siad sásta go bhfuil a ngnóthaí i lámha cearta agus nach ndéanfar dearmad díobh.
Mr. Murphy: Not the least contribution to rural housing in recent years [1417] was made under the Gaeltacht Housing Act, and as one who had some knowledge and experience of the manner in which that Act was administered by the Department, I wish to offer my tribute for the inestimable services it rendered many people who were in great difficulty in regard to housing. The provision inthe Act which enabled materials to be brought to the site, and enabled a person who was harassed for want of capital to begin the construction of a house was a very good one, and as a result quite a number of people have been housed under its operations, who could never have availed of the grants provided under ordinary housing legislation. Unfortunately, a number of cases remain to be dealt with in areas covered by the Gaeltacht Housing Act, and having regard to that position this Estimate makes very cheerless reading, when it is found that there is a decrease of £7,000 in the grants provided. I regret that very much, because a great deal of valuable work could still be done under the operations of the Act. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will represent to the Minister, and to the Government, the desirabilirty of reviewing the whole matter, and making an exception to the general pruning that now appears to be in progress in regard to most of these services. I want particularly to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to some special problems that exist in one of the few remaining Gaeltacht strongholds, if not the only stronghold, in west Cork—the island of Cape Clear. That is an island of very historic associations where the population has now, for one reason or another, dwindled to 300 or 400. That island has to depend for connection with Baltimore on a very indifferent service. Technically I suppose this is not the responsibility of the Parliamentary Secretary but he will, I am sure, have no desire to shirk the moral responsibility that rests upon him, as head of the Gaeltacht services, for seeing that some kind of reasonable connection is maintained between the island and the mainland. His officials are extremely courteous and sympatheitc in this matter and they are not responsible, I [1418] am sure, for the very protracted delay that has taken place in rectifying this shortcoming. The mail boat travelling between Baltimore and Cape Clear is the only link the people have with the mainland in all their trials and tribulations and in the few joys that come their way. The mail boat is the only means of obtaining medical assistance for the isolated population there who require such assistance occasionally and may, having regard to their circumstances, require it fairly frequently.
The fact is that that attendance has been very precarious for some time past because the boat plying between Baltimore and the island has become positively dangerous. The sea journey which, at many times of the year, was fairly uncertain, is now one of considerable peril. The practice is that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs makes an arrangement with a contractor for the carrying of the mails, and a boat for that purpose is given to the contractor on certain terms by the Department. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will not stand in the way of the necessary facilities being given. The position is extremely serious, and there would be a grave outcry if any lives were lost amongst the island population or if the lives of any of the people who have to make this dangerous journey were lost. Whatever Departmental difficulties exist should be surmounted at once and provision made for obtaining a safe and suitable boat to continue in a reasonable manner the service between the island and the mainland.
Another matter more or less bound up with the point I mentioned is that of telephonic communication with the islands of Cape Clear and Sherkin.
That is an urgent matter for the reasons I have already advanced in connection with the boat service. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs have been dealing with this matter but they have been proceeding very slowly. I make bold to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to use his influence with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to have a connection permanently made in a short time. It will make a great difference if the people there are able to get in touch with the mainland quickly. It will be useful, too, in connection [1419] with the better prospects for the fishing industry which now confront the population of the island. The island of Cape Clear, and the neighbouring island of Sherkin, to a lesser extent, are the two remaining Gaeltacht strongholds on the southern coast. I should be glad to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary, if not now at the earliest opportunity—he has not had much notice—of the progress made in connection with these matters. I ask him again to review the considerable reduction in expenditure provided in the Estimate for the purpose of reducing the grants in connection with Gaeltacht housing. I think that a good deal remains to be done in that connection, and his Department has the responsibility of making a reasonable contribution to the work.
Mr. Bartley: I did not intend to say anything on this Estimate but I was amazed to hear a Deputy criticising the subsidy which the Government is giving to enable industries peculiar to the Gaeltacht to be kept alive. When we consider other industries which are heavily subsidised and from which the Gaeltacht areas do not get any benefit, I think it is taking a small view to cavil at the amount being spent on these Gaeltacht industries. They may not be paying in the way that businesses run by private enterprise are usually expected to pay, but the hope can be fostered that they will eventually reach that stage. When one considers the huge sums spent on industries such as sugar and butter—these subsidies are not peculiar to our country—it is rather niggardly to cavil at the comparatively small sums spent on industries that serve the poorest sections of our community. Very often it is said that, in lieu of the dole, employment, even of an uneconomic sort, should be given in those districts so that the people would at least be working. Surely this would include the knitting industry and other rural industries of that type?
Tá bealach faoi leith ina gcuidigheann an Roinn seo leis an nGaeltacht sésin go ndeanann sé comhriaradh idir na Rannaibh eile i dtaobh cúrsaía bhaineas leis an nGaeltacht. [1420] Rud ar bith a bhíos Teachta ag iarraidh ar Roinn eile is túisge a déanfar é má fhaghann sé cabhar ón DáilRúnaí nó ón Stiúrthóir. Táim ag iarraidh ortha anois dlús a chur leis i riocht is go mbrostóchar Coimisiún na Talmhan i gceist mhór úd: ath-shocrú na ngabháltas sa nGaeltacht. Ní féidir congnamh a fháil le teach a dhéanamh mara dtiubhra Coimisiún na Talmhan deimniú nach dtiocfaidh gabháltas an iarrathóra faoi aon scéim athsocruighthe. Tá a fhios ag lucht na Seirbhísí seo go bhfuil a lán iarrantaisí coninnighthe siar de bharr na rialach seo. Is ceist achrannach go minic í seo agus, maidir le tógáil tighthe cuirreann sí go mór as do chuid mhaith daoine sna ceanntair cumhanga. Feichtear dhomsa go bhfuil an chuid is mód'obair na Roinne seo, maidir le tighthe i gConamara, déanta anois ó coinnigheadh féim an Achta seo taobh istigh den Fhíor-Ghealtacht, ach beidh go leór eile le déanamh aca nuair a bheas gabhaltaisí roinnte amach mar bhudh cheart dóibh a bheith. Iarraim go dúthrachtach ar an Roinn an cheist seo a choinneál os comhair Choimisiún na Talmhan.
Budh mhaith liom a fháil amach an féidir leis an Roinn margadh a fháil d'fheamainn titim. Tá a fhíos agam go bhfuil siad ag déanamh a ndichill i dtaobh na ceílpe. Dóghadh cuid mhaith feamainne duibhe le haghaidh Potash le linn an chogaidh mhóir deireannaigh. Cloiseann muid go leór cainte na laetheannta seo faoi ghanntanas leasughadh talmhan. Nach ndéanfadh an fheamainn, gan dóghadh ar bith, cúis maith go leór i leabaidh cukd de na rudaí eile, agus san am ceadhna saothrú a thabhairt do mhuinntir an chladaigh.
Tá rud eile atá fairsing i n-áiteacha i gConamara, sé sin gaineamh griubháin. Is togha ruda é leis an bportach a bhriseadh isteach le talamh cuir a dhéanamh de. D'fhéadfaí níos mó usáide a bhaint as le n-a aghaidh seo. Tá a fhios agam go gcuireann an DáilRúnaí féin an-spéis sa rud seo nuair a meiltear é le h-aghaidh na gcearc. Tá súil agam go mbeidh scéal spéisiúil le hinnseacht aige i dtaobh an ruda amach annseo. Rudaí beaga, b'fhéidir, na rudaí seo, ach bíonn meas ag na [1421] daoine bochta ar chuile chabhair is congnamh.
Mr. Lynch: As other Deputies have already observed, the Vote for Gaeltacht housing has been reduced by a sum of £7,000. What I feel about it is this, that not even the £35,000 provided will be spent because of the increase that has taken place in the cost of materials. The postion that we envisaged when the first Gaeltacht Housing Act was introduced in 1929 was to provide a sufficeint sum by way of grant for persons who were prepared to build houses in the Gaeltacht, so that they would be enabled to buy all the materials required for the purpose. The sum we provided undoubtedly did that at the prices that then prevailed. It was sufficient to pay for all the materials. I remember, when one of the earlier Acts was being introduced, saying, in reply to a question, that I hoped that the loans would be very sparingly used. We encouraged persons to go for the maximum grant and the minimum loan, so that they would not find themselves burdened subsequently with liabilities which they might not be able to meet.
Deputy Mongan and others have said that the cost of the materials nowadays has risen by something like 30 per cent. If that is so, it would mean that the cost of materials for the building of a Gaeltacht house, with two small outhouses for poultry and pigs, would be about £120. I think the Parliamentary Secretary ought to consider immediately, even as a temporary measure, bringing in legislation to enable him to increase the grant in each case accordingly, as otherwise the persons in the Gaeltacht who would be inclined to avail of the facilities for the purpose of building new houses will have to wait until the cost of materials falls.
I feel that even the £35,000 provided will not be availed of, because of the impossibility of getting materials, through the grant, sufficient to complete the job. That is an aspect of the case that we will obtain more information about later. I think, however, the Parliamentary Secretary will find there will be a big fall in the number of applications. In the case of those [1422] who have already applied and whose applications are under way, I think it will be found when sanction is given that the applicants will find themselves in the position that they will not be able to get the required materials for the sum of money provided.
On another aspect of the Vote, rural industries, I find myself more in sympathy with the view expressed by Deputy Bartley than with the view expressed by Deputy Dockrell. We have always been saying it would be preferable, from many points of view, if persons could be put working instead of given the dole. We have been anxious in the Gaeltacht to keep persons employed in rural industry, to give them a training and to keep them in employment that requires an particular type of skill. We are keeping the tradition and the skill going through these rural industries. I think there is no analogy, and there can be no analogy, in the method by which they are run and that of a modern business concern. I can see no harm in what Deputy Dockrell has asked for, that the Parliamentary Secretary should make a statement about the value of the stock at the central depot and in the various centres. While I say that there is no harm in providing that information, I disagree with Deputy Dockrell's conclusion that, because that information has bot been given, the thing is all wrong. i think in regard to those rural industries that, even though we lose a certain amount of State money every year, it is a loss well worth continuing. It would be a disastrous thing, in my opinion, if, because we appear to be continuing to lose, and there seems to be no prospect of making those industries from the ordinary business standpoint an economic propostion, we were to close them down for that reason or to curtail them in any way.
I have a great deal of sympathy with Deputy Mongan when he says that all the “hullabaloo” and all the talk is apparently about Donegal, forgetting the rest of us completely. I suppose it is because the Donegal people are better or that they are more persistent in making their claims. But actually [1423] there are traditions in Deputy Mongan's constituency as well as in many other constituencies, such as Kerry, for the homespun manufacturing tradition is just as much in these places as in Donegal. I am extremely pleased to see that the Parliamentary Secretary has provided a spinning wheel at Kilcar. I think that is a step in the right direction, because we ought to encourage the tweeds to be made from out threads. That was the original homespun which made a name for itself. When we get back to weaving materials from our own threads, I believe that our homespuns will surpass any reputation that they had, and they did undoubtedly have a very great reputation at one time.
With regard to designs and so on, we should be able to go one better and do considerably better work in the direction of turning out stuff to meet modern requirements. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will continue to expand in the direction of using the home wool spun in our own spinning mills and woven by our own weavers in the carious centres. If the work is carried on in that direction I think it will be very well worth while. Anything it may cost, though it may from the business angle be economically unwound, will be well worth the money spent.
Mr. O'Grady: During past years I had occasion to appeal to Deputies in various parts of the House, when dealing with this Vote, to sink Party differences and to make suggestions of a helpful nature which would aid me and those responsible for the Gaeltacht services to bring some measure of improvement to the conditions obtaining in these areas. I am pleased to know that with one solitary exception, my words have this year met with a wholehearted response. I think it a happy augury for the future of the Gaeltacht that the criticsims of the Estimate for my Department have taken the lines they have followed this year. That one exception, I think, has been adequately dealt with by Deputy Fionán Lynch. I do not propose to elaborate upon what Deputy Lynch has said. Suffice it to say that Deputy Dockrell is the [1424] solitary exception. The Deputy states that this service ought to be a business proposition. If Deputy Dockrell or any other businessman were asked to establish a business in this country he would scarcely select Blacksod as the most suitable centre, nor would he select as a site Kilcar in Donegal or any other remote district, 40 miles, in some cases, from the nearest railway station. Such a selection involves the transport of the raw materials and the transport of the manufactured goods back to the depot later on. No businessman would face a proposition of that kind. This was not a business proposition. I do not think that when setting up this Department it was in the mind of the Oireachtas that it should be run as a profit-making concern or on commercial lines. As Deputy Lynch has pointed out, that could not be done, and it is not likely to happen in the near future. I could not follow Deputy Dockrell's arithmetic nor his references to supplying loans for fishing. That might more properly be addressed to the Minister for Agriculture.
I think the main points of the criticism have been mostly with regard to the reduction in the grants for housing or rather, to be more accurate, the amount of the Estimate for housing. I would like to point out that there is no change of policy, that his Estimate is what is considered likely by the Department to be spent in the course of the coming year. Provision for the housing grants shows a reduction in the figure of the previous year as it is anticipated that less money will be required. Nevertheless, the Department is anxious to encourage the work. The reason why the reduced estimate was introduced was because of a certain hesitancy on the part of applicants to proceed with the work in the present disturbed state of the times.
The number of cases sanctioned under the Acts up to 31st December, 1939, was 7,864, the total amount sanctioned being £472,977 by way of grants and £175,096 by way of loans. The amounts paid up to the same date were £392,036 by way of grants and £131,047 by way of loans. Applications continued to be received for assistance under this scheme, more than 1,000 [1425] being on hands at present. It is estimated that some 10,000 more new houses are required in the Gaeltacht and that there are about 2,000 old houses which need repair.
Deputy Mulcahy referred to a sum of £8,000. That sum represents salaries, travelling expenses of the surveyors and supervising gangers who have given such valuable assistance to these poor people, many of whom would never have been able to take advantage of the Housing Acts without such special assistance—a fact of which the Deputy is fully aware. Deputy Murphy, when speaking on the Estimate a short time ago, drew particular attention to this fact.
As a result of this special assistance, as well as the facilities provided for combined purchasing with the consequent reduction of prices arising therefrom, the grants are worth much more than their actual face value. We are not unmindful of the increased cost of materials. The chief housing surveyor has recently been preparing a new plan which will, he hopes, have the effect of saving, approximately, £15 per house in the price of materials without affecting their utility.
Deputy Lynch and, I think, Deputy John Flynn also referred to the fact that Kerry was completely forgotten. So far as housing is concerned I do not think that can be particularly true. Since the passing of the Gaeltacht Housing Act up to the 31st March last Kerry has received between grants and loans £176,732, as against Galway's £152,011 and Donegal's £117,958. In the same period Mayo has received £97,899, Cork £71,731, Waterford £27,723 and Clare £8,775. These are the figures and, according to them, I think Kerry has no grounds for complaint at all. In the year 1939-1940 Kerry got in grants and loans £16,954 out of a total expenditure of £36,708 or almost half the total amount expended.
The next item that I will deal with is the tweed industry. Last year the quality of our tweeds was adversely criticised and I am pleased to note that we had no adverse criticism this year. Even though the allegations made last year were without foundation they cannot but have had some slight [1426] adverse effect on our sales. Nevertheless, the sales of “Round Tower” tweeds created a record. In 1932-1933 the tweed sales were £7,632. This figure rose in 1937-38 to £ 15,020 and, last year, despite may handicaps, the figure reached £28,031.
I am satisfied that, as a result of the re-organisation of the industry by my predecessor, Senator Connoly as he then was, a stage has now been reached when “Round Tower Tweeds” have gained a permanent place on the home market-while at the same time the prospects of the export market are bright.
The quality of “Round Tower Tweeds” is excellent, composed as they are of nothing but pure wool. The designs and patterns are attaractive, and the prices at which they are offered compare fovourably with competitive lines considering their very high standard and quality. Our sales at home amounted to £22,435. I think it was Deputy McMenamin who made inquiries regarding our sales. £11,654 of this represented sales in Dublin, and £10,799 in the rest of the country. With Deputy Linehan I, too, Believe that the possibilities of the home market have not yet been fully explored, and that there is still room for development in it, particularly in the provincial towns.
I now turn to the foreign market. Our sales of “Round Tower Tweeds” during 1939-40 in the United States of America amounted to £4,600. This market seems to afford every prospect of development in consequence of the much criticised exhibit at the New york World's Fair and the very excellent work done by our representative over there. I did not go there though Deputy McMenamin seems to think I should have gone. Instead, the assistant manager, a man with a profound knowledge of the industry, was sent, and while out there he formed contacts with some of the leading houses in New York. The seed thus sown is now bearing fruit, and I am pleased to inform the House that last week we received an order from one house for upwards of £1,000 worth of “Round Tower Tweeds.” That is an interesting development, and I think it will be possible to increase our sales [1427] in that market, especially now when we are about to instal a new spinning mill. The establishment of this spinning mill at Kilear will enable us to fill our orders in reasonable time, and not, as in the past, be dependent on outside sources for supplies. oftentimes the yarns ordered were not delivered in time, and in consequence we lost many valuable orders. This crippled us in many respects and certainly did not help to enhance our reputation commercially. Failure to supply orders within a reasonable period of time is bound to have a paralysing effect on any business. The opening of this new mill will contribute materially to the development of the industry. This will not in any way interfere with the hand-spun handwoven industry. Like Deputy Brian Brady and others who have drawn attention to this matter, I regard both branches—the hand-spun and mill-spun—as complementary to each other, and so when this mills is installed I believe we will be able to meet the demands of the hand-weavers for a carding and breaking plant by carrying out these operations for them in the new mill in addition to supplying our own requirements. The technical advisers of the Department have advised me that it will be possible to do so— to render this service for them—and, in addition, to carry out dyeing operations as well. Expert advice has been sought with regard to the construction and lay-out of the mill, and when the mill has been erected the future employees will be trained by experts so as to give it a reasonable chance of becoming a success form the start.
Now, turning to kintwear, the progress made in the knitting industry in recent years is very satisfactory. Wages have increased from £9,883 in 1932-1933 to £15,560 in 1939-40. The sales of kintted goods have increased over the same period from £13,043 to £43,612. That is, indeed, very satisfactory progress. The production in all branches has whoen a considerable advance, both in quantity and quality. some two-thirds of the wages paid are in respect of flat-machine knitting; the weekly wage workers can earn on a piece-time basis, being higher than in the other branches. It is proposed to [1428] open a new flat-machine centre of this type in Annagry, County Donegal. Sock-knitting centres are, for the most part, scattered around the islands and remote centres. With regard to hand-knitting, those engaged in this industry work on a part-time basis, and generally as an adjunct to their domestic duties. Nevertheless, it provides a very useful addition to the income of many homes. With regard to the kindred industries, lace and embroidery, i do not propose to say very much. Those industries are being carried on in the way in which they have been for years. The manageresses are responsible for the marketing of the goods, for the purchases from the workers in those districts, and for the sales subsequently.
Now, I come to our latest industry, that of toys, which is situated in the Belmullet peninsula. After two years experience of this new industry, the Department is satisfied that a high standard of goods can be and is being produced in the Gaeltacht, and that there is a large market for same. The organisation of an industry of this type in a very remote district is not free from difficulties, and the destruction by fire of the factory in which the industry was first established has been a serious set-back. nevertheless, the Department proceeded to reorganise the industry immediately, and have been carrying along as best they can in temporary improvised premises at four different centres. The main types of goods manufactured in these centres are soft toys, wooden toys, shopping bags, and art dolls. Boys are mostly engaged in the hard toys section, and in the soft toys section the majority, of course, are girls. The wages paid during the year 1938-39 amounted to £1,630, and in 1939-40 to £3,177. The increase in sales from £2,905 to £10,488 last year is considered very encouraging. The industry is now well established, and we are confident that we will be able to supply the home market largely, and to establish a considerable export market as well. Incidentally, I might mention that a few days ago we received an order from across-Channel for £500 worth of these toys.
The rates of pay compare favourably with those obtaining in kindred industries operating under trade union rates. Most of the employees, especially [1429] in the soft toy industry, are girls under 20 years of age, and many are still undergoing training. I think Deputy Linehan and others who may be interested would be well advised to consult some of their colleagues from North Mayo to ascertain whether these girls are satisfied or otherwise.
I next come to kelp. The price offered this year of £5 10s. per ton will, it is hoped, prove attractive to gatherers, and, while we failed last year to get more than half our requirements, we are confident this year of obtaining our full requirements of 2,000 tons. I would also like to point out that there is no limit fixed to the amount which gatherers may offer. Whatever amount may be offered will be accepted by the Department. In addition, quantities of seaweed were purchased each year since 1936. In that year, 12 tons were purchased; in 1937, 41 tons; in 1938, 393 tons; in 1939, 304 tons. The price paid in 1936 and 1937 was £1 per ton, and in the later years this was increased to 22/6. It is proposed to purchase this year a minimum of 500 tons, which it is anticipated will be far exceeded.
Since 1935 an arrangement is in operation under which a commercial firm purchases carrageen for industrial purposes from the gatherers. The total amount purchased in 1934/35, the last year during which the Department bought and sold the commercial product, was 161 tons, and the average price per stone paid to the gatherers was 1/9¼. The total quantity purchased under the revised scheme in 1939/40 was 157 tons, and the average price per stone was 1/8½.
With regard to edible carrageen, the Department has continued to control this industry, first quality moss being picked and made up in suitable packets at the packing station in Cashla, County Galway, and marketed by Gaeltarra Éireann for use as food and for medicinal purposes. The total sales for 1939-40 amounted to £691. The market for edible carrageen is limited, and even though many of the suggestions put forward by Deputy McMenamin have been tried out already, it is felt that until it can be offered in a powder form which will [1430] present less difficulties to the housewife in its preparation, no marked increase in sales can be expected. With this object in view the Industrial Research Council is carrying out experiments.
Deputy Bartley, I think it was, referred to another item that more properly belongs to Agriculture, that is coral sand, which is used as a substitute for lime on land, and also for poultry feeding. The latter item is very interesting. This is the first time, I think, it has been suggested here, and I propose to take it up with the Department of Agriculture to see if there can be a market found for it.
In conclusion, I should like to draw attention to the remarkable growth of the Gaeltacht industries in recent years. The combined figures for the sales of tweeds, knitwear, lace, embroidery and toys in each of the years 1932-33 to 1939-40 are as follows:— 1932-33, £21,437; 1933-34, £25,093; 1934-35, £30,711; 1935-36, £34,512; 1936-37, £32,028; 1938-39, £39,229; 1939-40, £84,151. The estimate for 1940-41 is £100,000. That is a remarkable growth in the past few years. The rate of progress is satisfactory on the whole and the outlook for the future of the Gaeltacht industries is brighter than at any previous period of which I have knowledge.
Deputy Murphy referred to the boat service to Cape Clear island. That is primarily a matter for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, as the Deputy is aware. Nevertheless, we are interested in the matter. There are legal difficulties in the way, as the Deputy seems to know, with regard to the boat that was in operation there before. Everything is being done, however, to make it possible to provide a service for the inhabitants of that island, and I can assure the Deputy and the House that we are not overlooking the matter and that nothing is being left undone to restore this service. In addition, it is proposed, I understand, by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, to establish telephonic communication with that and other islands having a population in excess of 100. The principal difficulty in the way is the provision of materials. The House will, I am [1431] sure, understand the difficulty of providing many of these materials at present.
I do not think there was any other point raised, and in conclusion I should like to assure the House that I feel very confident that there is a growing market for Gaeltacht products, and I hope we shall be able to continue the progress made in recent years during the coming year.
Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. MacEntee): I move:—
Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £7,194 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1941, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí na Muir-Sheirbhíse (Achtanna Loingis Cheannaíoctha, 1894 go 1933, agus an tAcht Imeall Trágha, 1933 (Uimh. 12 de 1933)), agus chun íocaíochtaí áirithe Cúitimh.
That a sum not exceeding £7,194 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Marine Service (Merchant Shipping Acts, 1894-1933, and the Foreshore Act, 1933 (No. 12 of 1933)), and for certain payments of compensation.
There is nothing unusual in this minor Vote which would call for attention except sub-head I. Sub-head I is included in order to enable the Government to implement the undertaking which was given in September last to provide compensation for war injuries or loss of effects suffered by the crews of Irish ships, equivalent to the compensation that would be afforded by the British Government in the case of loss of British ships. The terms of the British scheme were not known at the time and it was a condition of the undertaking that the whole question of compensation would receive reconsideration when the terms of the British scheme became available. That scheme [1432] is now being examined in the Department of Finance and perhaps it may be necessary to introduce legislation in order to give full effect to the compensation terms finally decided upon. In order to meet demands that may be pressing or that may arise before the scheme is actually before the House, it is desirable that the Dáil should approve of sub-head I. I might add that it is a token Vote of £10. So far as we can ascertain, the amount that it might be necessary to expend in a year would not be much in excess of £1,000.
Mr. O'Donovan: On this Vote I should like to refer to a matter which I raised by way of question a short time ago, that is, the matter of sea sand for agricultural purposes. At the time I raised the question, it was a matter of vital importance for farmers along the seaboard. I am glad to be able to compliment the Minister on the way he met me on that occasion and agreed to give the necessary facilities or, at least, reasonable facilities. I want to impress upon the Minister the necessity of further extending these facilities, if it is possible to do so, because I understand that not alone along the Cork coast, but in Waterford and along the seaboard generally, sand is drawn from the shore for the purpose of adding to farmyard manure. It is an essential requisite for the production of crops. Long before I was born sand was drawn a distance of 20 miles or more on horseback by people in these areas. Two bags of sand were carried on each horse and that sand was sold as artificial manure is sold to-day. The landlords at the time encouraged the use of it, in the production of corn, by giving a subsidy for corn so grown. The landlord would buy all the oats that was grown on a farm on which the sand had been used and pay a higher price for it than was given in the local markets. It was recognised a very long time ago that sand was necessary for the production of cereals and also for the production of root crops such as turnips, mangolds and beet.
Whilst recognising that the Foreshores Act has to be enforced, I see that the amount collected in fees is very small. The total amount mentioned in [1433] the Appropriations-in-Aid as receipts from this source is only £110. I think that under existing conditions, when there are so many restrictions on the supply of artificial manures, the Minister should give all the assistance possible to farmers in this connection for the carting of sand all the year round.
In case there is any misunderstanding, I want the Minister to differentiate between sea sand and sea gravel. Many people have been prevented from removing sea gravel or horse sand owing to the danger of erosion. I know the Cork coast pretty well, and, as far as I know, the sand removed by farmers is not sea gravel, but stand for manurial purposes. That is a fine sand, containing a certain quantity of lime, and its use is healthy and beneficial for the land. I do not know any cases of erosion that have arisen owing to the carting of sand of that description. I should, therefore, like the Minister to differentiate between that fine stand and sea gravel. The gravel is a coarser commodity, and it is found on a higher surface than sea sand. Owing to the intensive building drive, a large quantity of this coarser sand has been carted from the foreshores for use in the building of concrete houses. In many cases that has been the cause of erosion. I do not know any case, as I say, in which the removal of fine sea sand has been the cause of erosion. I hope the Minister will take cognisance of this particular point, and that there will be no attempt made to prevent people from carting fine sea sand. The removal of gravel which has given rise to erosion has been principally at the instance of the county councils and the Minister's officials. As the Minister met me so graciously when I raised this question about a month ago, I do not want to stress the point further than to ask him to continue, and if possible to extend, the relaxations while war conditions exist, owing to the lack of artificial manures.
Another question to which I should like to refer has reference to the fees which people are charged for the removal of this sand. I should like to point out that people along the coastline are paying a very heavy fee for this privilege of removing sand in the higher valuation of their land. Under [1434] Griffith's valuation, farmers along the seaboard, convenient to sand and seaweed, had their land valued very highly as a result of their proximity to such sand and seaweed. They are paying as much as 10 per cent. extra on their valuation for their proximity to sand and seaweed. It would not be fair to deprive these people of the benefits which they have paid for in this way, whilst others, who merely pay a small fee of 5/-, can cart it with lorries long distances. People living convenient to the shore should not be further penalised than they are at the moment. In conclusion, I would ask the Minister to give consideration to what I have said, and I thank him for what he has done recently.
General MacEoin: I am rather disappointed that the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who is in charge of this Vote, has not made some comment upon the marine service generally. He is new to the Department and I know that he has considerable energy. I expected that, when this Vote would come up, he would be in a position to tell us that some headway had been made in the establishment of a marine service. This marine service is of a very mild type and the functions it discharges are not very important from the State point of view. I would like the Minister to tell us whether his Department has made any survey of the establishment of a marine service having ships of its own belonging to the State, or of the formation of a company for trans-Atlantic shipping.
Everyone knows that in the European war of 1914-18, Norway succeeded in building up a mercantile marine that put it in a very sound financial position. At the moment we find that we have no contact with the United States, the “greater Ireland beyond the seas”, that we have to travel via Genoa or similar places. At a time like this I would expect the Minister— when he has got the opportunity of coming in fresh to a department—to use his energy to build up such a service. It is very important that a mercantile marine should be built up here and that tourists be carried in Irish ships from the United States to this country. That is an opportunity [1435] which could be availed of. We know that one of the very important services of this State—Hospitals' Trust—has been very severely interfered with and practically wiped out of existence through the lack of shipping accommodation. Both the Hospitals' Trust and the Government should have taken steps, through the Minister for Industry and Commerce, to build up such a service as I mention. I expected that, on this particular Vote, the Minister would have told us that he was having this matter examined and that he hoped to put Ireland on the map as a mercantile nation and that ships would ply between this country and the United States in a very short time. When the Minister is replying, I hope he will refer to this and tell us what progress has been made in the matter.
Mr. MacEntee: I will bear in mind what Deputy O'Donovan has said as to the need for making a distinction between sea-shore sand and sea-shore gravel. I think that my Department is aware of the difference between them. I would not, however, undertake to override the opinion of my technical advisers in regard to the danger or otherwise of removing any foreshore material from the coastline. I am sure the Deputy will appreciate what my position would be if I ventured to do so. I do not think that the fee charged for sea-shore sand is excessive or unreasonable. So far as I have ascertained, there is, in fact, no charge at all for the first 25 tons of material removed and it is 10/- per ten tons afterwards. I do not think that makes much difference, even to the poorest farmer who may need sea sand.
Mr. O'Donovan: They had free sand up to now, and there is a little grumbling over this.
Mr. MacEntee: The real position is that we have to keep control over its removal. That is why fees are charged at all, to make sure that the formalities will be complied with.
On the point raised by Deputy MacEoin, I think that the title of the Vote has misled him. This service is [1436] required in order to secure compliance with the Merchant Shipping Acts in respect of ships registered in this country wherever located, and in respect of ships registered elsewhere than in Irish ports. It has nothing to do with marine transport or with the ownership or establishment of a mercantile marine. In that connection, I would say that this matter may arise for discussion later on, on the main Estimate, and I may then be in a position to say something in regard to that matter, principally from the viewpoint of the difficulties which would have to be surmounted. It must be remembered that it is comparatively easy to put some millions of money into ships but quite another thing to hold those ships when they have been bought.
General MacEoin: One could make a good try.
Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Little): I move:—
Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,610,435 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1941, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Puist agus Telegrafa (45 agus 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 agus 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; na hAchtanna Telegrafa, 1863 go 1928, etc.); agus Sheirbhísí áirithe eile atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin.
That a sum not exceeding £1,610,435 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (45 and 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 and 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; the Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1928, etc.); and of certain other Services administered by that Office.
The net Post Office expenditure for the year 1940-41 is estimated at £2,487,435, being an increase of £81,890 on the Estimate for 1939-40. The gross increase is approximately £112,000, of [1437] which the main items are:—£53,500 in respect of higher cost of living figure; £26,000 for increases in the prices of commodities; £14,800 for additional civil aviation and meteorological wireless services; £7,400 in respect of repayments of further moneys advanced under the Telephone Capital Acts; £8,600 increased provision for superannuation; the balance being due to incremental increases on salaries, etc. There are offsetting reductions under the heads of railway and air mail conveyance; cost of non-engineering stores; engineering contract work, etc.; also savings in respect of an extra pay day included in 1939-40 but not arising in the current year. These reductions, together with additional receipts from Appropriations-in-Aid, make the estimated net increase in expenditure for the year £81,890. Of this increase, as already stated, £53,500 is due to higher cost of living figure.
The total provision includes a sum of £18,188 in respect of staff on loan to other services, mainly those arising out of the emergency.
At the outset I desire to indicate the financial position of the Department as ascertained from the commercial accounts for the year 1938-39, the latest period for which completed figures are available:—
Postal services: Revenue, £1,736,250; Expenditure, £1,619,742; Surplus, £116,508.
Telephoneservices: Revenue, £552,683; Expenditure, £486,931; Surplus, £65,752.
Telegraph services: Revenue, £186,345; Expenditure, £315,977; Deficit, £129,632.
It will be seen that the postal and telephone services combined showed, at the end of the year 1938-39, a surplus of £182,260, and the telegraph service a deficit of £129,632, leaving a net surplus on the three services of £52,628. Although revenue for the year was greater by, approximately, £81,000 than for 1937-38, the surplus dropped by about £41,000. The drop in surplus in 1938-39 was mainly due to higher cost of living figure, to increased [1438] expenditure on mail conveyance, to the development of air services, and to advances in the prices of stores.
While I am not yet in a position to furnish precise figures of revenue and expenditure for the financial year which has just concluded, so far as can be judged, the surplus of £52,000 odd which existed at the end of March, 1939, had at the end of last month been converted into a deficit of, roughly, £30,000. And this despite the fact that revenue for 1939-40 was approximately £30,000 greater than in the previous year. The explanation is that the growth in revenue was more than counterbalanced by increased cost of living bonus; of additional staff to meet growth of services; of mail conveyance; by increased prices of stores, and by special provision of general and engineering stores rendered necessary by emergency conditions.
The Post Office services being the main channels of communication with places outside the State, it might naturally be expected that the business of the Department would have been adversely affected in material degree by the international situation. Such has, however, not been the case. Letter and parcel traffic keeps well up to normal; the postal order, money order and savings bank business transacted last year was even above the level of the previous year; while the number of telephone calls increased by over 3,000,000. Even telegrams, an ordinarily declining service, were up by over 20,000. I have already referred to the increase of £30,000 in revenue during the year. The general inference to be drawn from these very satisfactory figures of Post Office activities must, I think, be that the business and industry of the country are, notwithstanding the disturbed international position, in a very healthy condition. So far as the Department is concerned, I see no reason to apprehend any adverse change in the situation during the coming year, although the limitation of the activities of Irish Hospitals Trust, Ltd., a valuable contributor to Post Office revenue, will no doubt have its effects. On the whole, however, I am optimistic that this year existing revenue will be at least maintained.
[1439] The main effect of the present European war upon the Irish Post Office has been a slowing down of the external mail services, principally those to and from the more distant countries. As regards the services with Great Britain, the day packet between Dún Laoghaire and Holyhead has been discontinued, and the Rosslare and Fishguard boat now runs on only three nights a week. While, however, a certain amount of delay to correspondence occurs by reason of the restricted services, it cannot be regarded as particularly serious. The inward night packet from Holyhead has, however, been running very irregularly, and this has involved failure of connection with the day mail trains to the provinces, delay to the second delivery in the Dublin central districts, and the postponement of the second delivery in the Dublin suburban districts until the afternoon in order to avoid considerable expense for overtime which would otherwise have been necessary. I am glad to say, however, that recently the running of the night packet has tended to become more regular, and this has enabled special arrangements to be introduced during the past few days for improving the position of the suburban areas. If the present running is maintained, it is hoped that it will be practicable to commence the suburban deliveries between 10.15 a.m. and 10.30 a.m. from this onwards, but whether this can be attained in practice will, of course, depend upon the future running of the boat. It will be appreciated that in present circumstances it is not practicable for my Department to control effectively the cross-Channel working.
In regard to the foreign services, despatches and arrivals of American mails via Cobh have had to be suspended owing to the cessation of calls by mail steamers at that port; direct communication with certain belligerent countries is no longer feasible and mails for them have had to be diverted from their ordinary routes; the system under which first class mail matter for various countries abroad (Australia, South Africa, etc.) was conveyed by air, as the normal means of [1440] transmission without special air fee, has been suspended, although air services to the countries concerned are still available at special air rates. In general, foreign mails, outgoing and incoming, are at present suffering considerable delay in transmission and this unfortunately is not avoidable. Notwithstanding the adverse conditions, however, the volume of foreign postal traffic is fairly well maintained.
An interesting feature of air mail service development during 1939 was the inauguration, in June last, by Pan-American Airways, of the direct Trans-atlantic air mail between the Shannon Airport, Newfoundland, Canada and the United States. This service, which was supplemented in August by flying boats of Imperial Airways, was maintained for mails and passengers until September, when the season's flying operations came to an end. For a time there were two services a week in each direction. A considerable amount of correspondence was conveyed, but a good deal of this was, of course, philatelic. It is anticipated that the service on the North Atlantic route will be resumed in May or June of this year for, it is understood, the conveyance of mails only.
In relation to the question of the use of air services for purposes of mail conveyance, I may mention that discussions were taking place last year with the British Administration regarding the feasibility of substituting air for surface conveyance between Eire and Great Britain on the termination of the existing contract with the London, Midland and Scottish Company for the service between Dún Laoghaire and Holyhead. The outbreak of the war, however, brought the discussions temporarily to an end.
The experimental suspension of postal delivery on Christmas Day was repeated last year, and I am now considering the question of making the arrangement a permanent one. While of material benefit to staffs affected, it has I think no disadvantages for the public, certainly none of particular importance. I desire to express my thanks for the splendid response to requests for early posting and also for [1441] the valuable assistance rendered by passenger-carrying companies in drawing public attention to the matter by the display of relative official notices.
The Foreign Money Order Services are still maintained though with some restrictions. Owing to exchange difficulties the service with Germany has been suspended by mutual agreement.
The Telephone Service continues to develop steadily. The revenue for 1938-39 amounted to £552,683, an increase of £41,628 on the total for the previous year. The revenue for last year continued to grow. The increase in telephone revenue is, in fact, wholly responsible for the growth in general revenue last year to which I have already referred. Expenditure on telephones is, however, growing by reason of increasing operating and maintenance costs.
The Telephone Capital Act of 1928 authorised borrowing up to a further £1,000,000 for development purposes, which brings the total amount provided by the State for telephone development since 1922 up to £2,725,000. Approximately £166,500 was spent on development in the last financial year, £135,000 of which was in respect of exchange equipment, additional trunks, underground works, and subscribers' circuits. The balance was for the provision of emergency stocks of “carrier” equipment and engineering stores. The number of telephone exchanges at the end of 1939 was 808, and of public call offices 1,492, including 159 street kiosks. Ten new exchanges and 20 call offices, including 18 kiosks, were opened last year. The number of subscribers' exchange lines increased by 1,180 to a total of 27,304, and the number of telephones in use by 1,739 to 44,260.
The number of local telephone calls in 1939 was 33,616,200, an increase of 2,759,700, and the number of trunk calls increased by 285,350, to a total of 3,791,150. The number of cross-Channel calls was 483,500, an increase of 84,250. There are at present 16 cross-Channel circuits in service, but it is expected that 12 additional circuits will be available before the end of the [1442] current year. Fifty-two additional internal trunks were provided last year, of which six were “carrier”. These carrier circuits are of high efficiency, ensuring first-class speech transmission on long distance routes. There are now 50 such circuits in service and additions are planned for the coming year. A good deal has also been done in the way of improvement in the transmission efficiency of minor circuits throughout the country.
Mr. Corish: What is a “carrier” circuit?
Mr. Little: I shall tell the Deputy afterwards. A new automatic exchange was opened in Dun Laoghaire some months ago, and the change over of all subscribers' circuits in the old Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock, Dalkey and Foxrock manual exchange areas was recently completed. The number of subscribers affected was 2,300, and the number of automatic telephones now in use in the Dublin and Dun Laoghaire areas is approximately 24,000. Calls between Dublin and Dun Laoghaire numbers are now “first area” local calls chargeable at 1d. Previously calls between Dun Laoghaire and Dublin cost 2d., and between Dalkey and Dublin 3d.
Plans for the adaptation of the premises in Exchequer Street, Dublin, acquired last year for use as a new trunk exchange are in hand, and the contract for the equipment, which will be of the most up-to-date type, has been placed. It is hoped that the new exchange will be completed within the next two years. It is intended that, later, an additional trunk exchange, linked with Exchequer Street, shall be provided in St. Andrew Street, and that ultimately the trunks shall be wholly removed from Crown Alley, which will then function solely as an automatic exchange.
The programme of telephone development works for the current year also includes, as well as the usual provision for new subscribers' circuits, provision for the building work necessary for a new automatic exchange for Cork; for an extension of the equipment at Clontarf automatic exchange; [1443] for underground works in Dublin and district to meet growth of the system; for additional circuits in the cross-Channel cables and for further “carrier” circuits, additional overhead trunks, etc. The cost of the programme will run to about £297,000. In connection with the works contemplated I should say that the Government are particularly anxious that telephone development shall proceed as far as possible on normal lines with, of course, due regard to increase in prices, not merely for the purpose of providing the public with an adequate and efficient service, but also in order that sufficient work will be available to keep construction and maintenance staff in employment. To what extent the Government's desire in this connection will be capable of realisation in practice will, however, depend largely on two factors; first the future demands from the public for service and, secondly the continued availability of the requisite engineering supplies. So far, public demands are keeping up remarkably well, and I see nothing at present to suggest that there is likely to be any marked change in this position. In regard to supplies of materials, etc., the position is that the bulk of the plant and apparatus used for engineering purposes is made outside Eire and during recent years much of it was purchased on the basis of world-wide competition.
Mr. Little: The closing up of Continental sources of supply has, naturally, materially affected matters, but notwithstanding this, the position remains reasonably satisfactory, although heavy increases in costs have taken place. Further, as a result of more stringent restrictions on the export of raw materials, manufacturers in Great Britain are in many cases reluctant to submit quotations for our requirements. In cases of difficulty the Department of Supplies is consulted. Generally speaking, however, it is probably safe to say that stocks now on hands are likely to prove adequate for requirements during the coming year, [1444] but it will, of course, be necessary to keep a close watch on the situation as replenishments may not be readily procurable or, even if they are, only at seriously enhanced prices. While, therefore, I propose to proceed with telephone development as far as possible on normal lines, the factors I have mentioned will have a very important bearing on the extent to which this will, in practice, be feasible.
On account, particularly, of the uncertainty as to replenishments of pole supplies it has been necessary, until the future position becomes clearer, to impose restriction on the provision of subscribers' circuits involving long pole routes. I hope that it may be possible to relax this restriction later.
In regard to the standard of the trunk service, I am glad to say that, on the whole, it is particularly good, both as regards speed of connection and quality of speech transmission. Complaints are rare. There is, however, one area, namely Sligo and districts served by Sligo—County Donegal, etc.—in which delay on calls to and from Dublin does occur during the busier periods. The reason for this is that, although there are at present three “carrier” circuits between Sligo and Dublin, they are insufficient to carry the traffic arising. The position is in course of rectification, and the delivery of additional “carrier” equipment, which will provide three extra high-grade channels between Dublin and Sligo and three additional channels—also “carrier”—between Sligo and Lifford, is at present awaited. It is hoped that it will be possible to have the new equipment installed in the near future.
The local telephone service is also good. In Dublin the automatic service is of a high standard. Minor technical faults in the complex automatic equipment and underground cable faults are from time to time inevitable, but their incidence is extremely low in relation to the large number of subscribers' circuits involved and the volume of traffic carried. Considerable trouble arose during the abnormal weather conditions in the early portion of the year, and particularly during the subsequent thaw, but matters were put [1445] right with the utmost possible expedition. I should add that the increase in the skilled workman force shown under sub-head I (1), is for the purpose of still further improving fault-clearing arrangements and the supervision of gangs employed on outdoor construction work, and also to cover increased maintenance requirements.
In regard to the system of rural automatics which has been installed experimentally in the exchange areas of Malahide, Donabate, Rush, etc., it was mentioned in connection with last year's Estimates that an extension of the experiment was contemplated. Unfortunately, the emergency and the conditions arising therefrom have so far rendered further semi-auto installations impracticable, but efforts will be made in the coming year to do what is possible in this respect. It is felt, however, that in present circumstances progress must be slow.
There is little to say regarding the telegraph service, except that its financial position continues to be unsatisfactory. The loss in 1938-39 amounted to £129,632, or £7,812 in excess of the loss in 1937-38, and the position did not improve in 1939-40. The fact is that, while the telegraph service is, and will probably long continue to be, a vital necessity where the traffic for transmission is heavy, it must, I fear, be recognised that, with the development of the telephone, the telegraphs will inevitably tend to decline. Unfortunately, however, declining traffic will not be accompanied by correspondingly reduced costs. So long as the traffic continues on any reasonable proportions, staff for its proper disposal must be maintained as well as an elaborate and expensive system of lines and apparatus, so that no probability whatsoever is seen of any material improvement in the existing financial condition of the telegraphs.
A scheme for the establishment of communication with 11 of the larger islands off the Western coast, not already provided with service, has been approved by the Government, and provision for the necessary expenditure is included in the Estimate. Service will [1446] be afforded by cable or by wireless, according to the circumstances in each case. The requisite equipment is on order, and it is hoped that the scheme, or the greater portion of it, will be completed during the coming summer. As to this, however, much will depend upon due delivery of the equipment.
The position of the Savings Bank continues to be satisfactory. The deposits during the year amounted to £2,917,326, and the withdrawals to £2,086,345, that is an increase in the balance held of £831,481, apart from the increase of £249,000 due to the addition of interest earned during the year. In November last the minimum amount which may be withdrawn on demand from a Post Office Savings Bank account was increased from £1 to £3. Stamp savings books have also been introduced for small savings by means of savings stamps which may subsequently be utilised for deposit in the savings bank or for purchase of savings certificates. If preferred, repayment of the stamps may be obtained at any post office when required. The savings stamps facilities were previously only available to members of savings associations.
Due to the emergency conditions, the year just concluded was an abnormally busy one for the stores branch. The outbreak of the war gave rise to serious complications of normal procedure as a result of the general tendency towards price increases, the closing of normal sources of supply, and the preoccupation of British contractors with urgent supplies for their own Government. Pressure on the contracts section, which is responsible for the procuring of supplies required for the post office and for other Government Departments, was heavy and continuous. In addition to the normal requirements, it was necessary to lay in emergency stocks. Large demands came from the Department of Defence for A.R.P. protective garments, and from the Army and Gárda authorities for extra uniform supplies for their augmented forces. The value of contracts placed by the stores branch during 1939 reached a total of £955,620 or £466,231 in excess of the contracts placed in the previous year. The expenditure [1447] on articles manufactured or assembled in Eire was £761,943, an increase of £386,149.
Civil aviation and meteorological services are controlled by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The associated wireless services are, however, provided and operated by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, the provision included in the Post Office Vote for the purpose being based on the requirements of the controlling Department. The total provision for 1940-41 amounts to £39,545, an increase of £14,820 on last year. The provision is based on the anticipated flying arrangements during the coming season. The increase is due to additional personnel likely to be required for operating purposes as well as to additional labour for construction works in connection with the Dublin meteorological wireless station and in connection with the installation of blind landing equipment at Rhynanna. I might mention that the radio services in connection with the cross-Channel air services, which were formerly located at Baldonnel, have been transferred to and are now in operation at Collinstown.
I would say, in conclusion, that the period which has elapsed since the outbreak of the war has been a particularly strenuous one for the various branches of the post office, not only on account of the additional work arising out of the emergency conditions but also by reason of their having been deprived of the services of a large number of experienced officers who had to be released for service in other Departments. I am glad to acknowledge the very willing manner in which the staffs generally have responded to the special calls upon them. I think, too, that I am justified in claiming that the services afforded to the public have been carried out with courtesy and efficiency. It will be my endeavour during the coming year to ensure that this satisfactory standard shall in all cases be maintained and, as far as practicable, improved on.
Mr. Dillon: It is certainly true that the Minister may congratulate himself [1448] that the services of the post office, taken as a whole, are carried out with a courtesy which is a very gratifying feature of the service. Of course, on occasion one meets with exceptional occurrences which depart from the high standard the post office sets for itself but, taking it as a whole, my experience certainly has been that the general standard of courtesy and the desire to oblige and to help patrons is admirable, and if one has any complaints to make, they are listened to attentively and everything within reason is done to put them right. I wonder does the Minister ever make a trunk call, and if so, has he ever noticed the anxiety that creeps into the voice of the lady who says “three minutes”, “six minutes,”“nine minutes.” I think if a person rings up a neighbour on a trunk line from his own house, and wants to have three, six or nine minutes conversation the post office ought to be very glad. The longer he spends at the telephone the more money the post office makes. But I find that it becomes almost impossible to resist the urgency of the distress in the lady's voice as the minutes tot up, and when she gets to the nine minute stage, one really feels that one is being reprehended for some sinful activity. I have often business transactions that last for 15 or 20 minutes. One of the values of the telephone is that instead of conducting interminable correspondence over complicated business transactions, one can take up the telephone and dispose of outstanding difficulties to the mutual satisfaction of all parties.
In America they have given up interfering in clients' conversations altogether. They sound a kind of gong at the end of every three minutes. It is the same in Great Britain. One is notified and is not allowed to trail along indefinitely without appreciating what is happening. But there is no desire to stop one if it is convenient to go on. It is nearly time an improvement of that kind was considered in reference to the trunk services here. It can be very irritating, if one is in the middle of a very complex discussion about some difficult point, if the lady interrupts the conversation to say that [1449] you have been speaking three minutes, suggesting that you should get off the line. At the end of the six minutes one could be very brutal, and there might be a very brusque reply on the part of the subscriber.
I want to tell the Minister that, in my modest experience, there is a substantial improvement in the service of answering the figure “0” or 31 or 39 when you dial. There was a time when the whole city could be burned down before you got any answer to “0” or 31 or 39. That position has materially improved, but I think there is still room for improvement. While that is so, it should be freely admitted that there has been a substantial improvement in the course of the last 12 or 18 months. I understand that any fault that exists is due to an inadequate staff, and that the Post Office makes the case that it cannot maintain staff except to meet the peak demand. While I think the Post Office sometimes leans a little too far in the direction of having a staff adequate only to meet the minimum demands, it should bear in mind that while the telephone is a profit-making service, that makes it none the less a public service, and subscribers should be spared the irritation of undue delay when they dial headquarters whether the figure is “0” or 31 or 39.
The Post Office makes another mistake in regard to trunk service. I have been a severe critic of the trunk service in the past, but I am glad to say, in my experience, which is not inconsiderable, that service is very much improved. It has a long way to go before it catches up with Great Britain and America, but we cannot expect the trunk service in this country, with a very scattered population, to be brought up to the high level of efficiency that obtains in Great Britain or America. It is much better than it was. While I am glad to be able to say that, the Post Office makes this mistake, that it is too slow to provide accommodation in advance of the times. It is always trying to model its economy on the assumption that it should not provide accommodation until the demand is there, with the result that the demand grows almost in spite of [1450] the Post Office. It does not do anything to evoke demand.
It is only when it finds the capacity of a line completely breaking down that it considers putting in new circuits. The result of that is a great many people who would put in the telephone and use the trunk service in rural Ireland do not put it in, because their neighbours are always complaining that the delays are so long. If instead of complaining that there were long delays, their neighbours were continually telling them when they went on a visit that it was astonishing when they rang up Dublin they got it as quickly as they got the next parish, I think the telephone would spread much more rapidly than is the case at present. I have not the slightest doubt that what would be excessive accommodation when first installed would be quickly caught up upon by the increased demand. I put it to the Minister that a more enterprising attitude towards increasing the trunk facilities should be adopted by his Department.
I made a suggestion some time ago about simplifying the charge, and I was told on that occasion that the system of zoning in this country was not practicable because the circuits were not laid out in that way. I do not give a fiddle-de-dee what way the circuits are laid, and I do not think it matters, because I do not inquire when I am making a trunk call whether my voice prevails, if the call is sent by way of Cork or Galway and back again so long as it gets where I want to send it. It does make a good deal of difference when I make a call to Waterford from Ballaghaderreen when I have no means of measuring what that call will cost. I have no foot rule by which I could say that Waterford is 140 miles as the crow flies from Ballaghaderren, and that the call, therefore, will cost 1/6. If it were laid down that from every exchange trunk calls could be made over 50 miles as the crow flies for 3d., 100 miles for 6d., 150 miles 9d., and anything over 150 miles 1/- in Ireland, I think that certainly in respect of charges a readily understandable system of levying them would evoke a good deal more business than the system [1451] is getting at the present time. The Minister may say: “In fact, it may be much more costly to route a call to a place only 25 miles from where you are than it is to route the call on the direct line for 50 or 60 miles”. That may be true but it would all come out in the washing. It does not matter how much each individual call costs provided you get a level rate for them all. It is true that, under a system of zoning, some calls which are dear now would be made cheap and that some calls which are very cheap now might be made a little dearer, but the net result would not materially affect the revenue of the telephone department and the simplification would be of great assistance to users of the telephone and a great temptation to many people who do not use the telephone now because they are not quite sure what it is going to cost them to do so.
The next thing I want to ask the Minister to do is to increase the number of areas in which the hours of telephone accommodation have been extended. To close down the telephone in rural Ireland now at 8 o'clock— which, from the farmers point of view, is 6.30—is absurd. It is absurd for two reasons. In the first place, it is absurd because the farmers frequently have not come home to their houses and have not finished their day's work at that time. Therefore, they are quite unable to avail of the telephone facilities if they want to do so. Secondly, the cheap period for using the telephone is after 7 o'clock. That is a very reasonable arrangement so far as city folk are concerned. They have from 7 o'clock until midnight to talk as much as they want, and they have the night after to do so if they so desire. The countryman has only from 7 to 8 o'clock to avail of the cheap rate, and it not infrequently happens that, when he is seeking to avail of the cheap rate, the exchange is closed down by the time his call comes through. That commonly happens in rural Ireland, because, naturally, everybody tries to get on to the telephone during the cheap period, and a line which is quite adequate to meet the normal day [1452] demand is overwhelmed between 7 o'clock and 8 o'clock. I suggest to the Minister that, at a very trifling extra cost, he could make the telephone available in every rural area until 10.30 at night. I urge very strongly that that concession should be made to the rural areas even though it be not an economic proposition and may have to be financed out of the revenue coming into the Post Office from the more densely populated areas.
I wonder if the Minister ever throws his mind back to the days when he lived in the country—if he ever did live in the country. If he did live in the country—particularly if he lived at some distance from a town—he would recognise that the appearance of the telegraph messenger caused consternation in every country kitchen, for two reasons. One reason was that they always apprehended that he was the harbinger of bad news. The second reason was that they knew his arrival was going to cost about 3s. 6d. The cost of delivering telegrams in rural Ireland is positively staggering. When you send a telegram to a person who lives six or seven miles from a post office in the country, it may cost him several shillings to take delivery of it.
I knew the case of a man who was highly thought of and whose family were scattered about the country in different positions. He died. A great many people who knew his brothers and relatives, who were working in towns with them and who had no experience of life in rural Ireland, sent messages of sympathy over the wire. They were delivered at the house and a delivery charge was levied on each of them. A very serious burden was thrown upon that family. That is not reasonable. The Minister himself says, and we all know, that the telegraph service is, of its nature, a dying service. Let it die in peace and do not use it as a flail wherewith to punish the country people. Let us bury it in some kind of glory, and if the Minister chooses to make a contribution to its wake in the form of reduction or abolition of delivery charges in rural Ireland it is not going to cost us a lot. Let nobody imagine that if you make the delivery of telegrams in rural Ireland [1453] cheap or, indeed, costless, it is going to precipitate a flood of telegrams all over the country. It is not. It is not going to increase the number sent by a hundred messages a year but it is going to relieve a large number of individuals of charges which they cannot afford to pay and it is, perhaps, going to permit a country person to send a message warning relatives at home of some impending event that he would be afraid to send now lest the relatives be vexed at the charge that would accrue due at the time the telegram came for delivery. I urge on the Minister that, if possible, the delivery charge on telegrams in rural areas should be abolished or, if that be impossible, that it be made merely nominal.
I want telephone kiosks put up at every taxi-rank in Dublin. That is not much to ask. You have got gentlemen who have arrived from the far ends of the earth setting up here in Dublin and establishing themselves in garages. They hold themselves out as ready to send a taxi to your door if you call their number. They place their number in advertising figures in the 'phone book, and they put every inducement and temptation in the way of the public to patronise them. The unfortunate fellows who are out on the streets of Dublin in all weathers trying to earn a meagre and miserable living have, in the majority of cases, to depend on the passenger who is prepared to walk to the taxi-rank and call a cab. We all know that, when we call a cab, we are usually in a hurry or else it is raining.
Given either of these circumstances, you are not going to walk down to the taxi-rank in the hope of getting a cab. When you get there, there may be no cab at that particular rank and you cannot telephone for a cab from another rank. I put it to the Minister that, from the point of view of the convenience of the people who want to call cabs, and from the point of view of the convenience of those who are trying to compete with taxi combines who want to wipe them out of existence, it would not involve excessive expense to put a kiosk on every taxi-rank. It would be a convenience to [1454] the person who wants to make a call if he has forgotten about it until he meets the kiosk. It would be an immense help to the taxi-men and it would be an immense convenience to the person who wants to call a taxi. It would be an assurance to the person who walks to the rank that, if there be no taxi there, he can step into the kiosk and ring up the next rank and ask a taxi to come along to where he is waiting. It is not going to involve the Government in any material expense. I have been trying to get a telephone kiosk at the corner of the Rotunda Gardens for two-and-a-half years. Three Ministers of Posts and Telegraphs have battled with me and explained the insuperable difficulty of putting a kiosk opposite Findlater's Church. Surely, in 1940, that ought not to tax the resources of the Government of Eire. I have been assured by one Minister after another that they fully appreciated my point of view but still there is no kiosk opposite Findlater's Church. Considering the number of pupils going to the technical schools there, considering that the rank there is manned by decent old cabmen whom I have known for 35 years and whose fathers before them stood at Findlater's corner, considering that these men had to abandon their cabs and, with admirable enterprise, put taxis on the road and considering that I am living round the corner, I suggest to the Minister that something ought to be done. I do not ask this concession for myself; í ask it for all the taxi ranks in Dublin. I should be long sorry to ask a Fianna Fáil Minister for anything in my own interest. I just mention this matter as a matter of interest, that, in addition to pleading for the taxi-drivers, I do live round the corner.
Mr. Norton: I want to refer to the statement made by the Minister, in which he indicated that the Post Office Stores Department had purchased large quantities of stores not alone for the Post Office Department, but for other Department as well. It might be news to the Minister to hear that his own staff are complaining that he has not yet supplied them with the regular issue of uniforms which has been due [1455] for some weeks and nobody is yet able to throw official light on when the staff are likely to get their uniforms. Will the Minister direct the attention of the Stores Department to this, that they ought to look after the staffs of their own Department with at least as much efficiency as they are looking after the staffs of other Departments? Will he indicate when it is likely that the staff of his Department will get the articles for the supply of which his stores branch is responsible?
Another matter to which I would like to refer is the claim for increased wages which has been submitted to the Minister's Department and which has been under consideration for a very long period. The Minister is somewhat new to his present office, but his predecessor promised last year to reconsider a claim for increased wages which he previously rejected. He indicated, in the course of a discussion with representatives of the staff, that he was impressed by aspects of the claim as submitted. Everyone believed that, as a result of the Minister's admission that he was impressed by aspects of the claim, a favourable decision would be given. Whether it was an ill-omen that the present Minister went over to the Department, I cannot say, but the fact remains that the Minister has not redeemed the high hopes held out by his predecessor's admission that he was impressed by aspects of the claim as submitted. Instead of doing something to redeem what was regarded as an implied promise by his predecessor, the present Minister has rejected the claim and has given no reason for its rejection. He does not attempt to say the claim is unreasonable or that it is based on any unjustifiable premises; he does not attempt to say that evidence has not been submitted in abundance to justify it. All he does is to express his very deep regret that in existing circumstances it is not possible to meet the claim for increased wages for a staff which have proved to the Minister's Department that that Department is not quite insensible to conviction by argument based on reason and logic that they are in urgent need, particularly [1456] in existing circumstances, of a substantial increase in wages to meet the rapid increase in the cost of living.
I am sure the Minister would not claim for himself that he has the last word in the matter of judging the reasonableness or otherwise of the claim. I am sure he will be prepared to admit that as between his viewpoint as a Minister and the viewpoint of the staff seeking an increased wage there might reasonably be some doubt as to whether the claim was justified. The Minister has now been asked to agree to refer the question in dispute to an independent tribunal in order that such tribunal can consider and determine the matter at issue, the staff for their part having undertaken, if the Minister does likewise, to accept the verdict of an independent tribunal and to be bound by the terms of that tribunal's award. Every day in the week the Minister for Industry and Commerce is advising employers and employees to resort to that method of settling disputes. No later than yesterday the Government Press was somewhat lyrical in advocating a similar method of settling a dispute. I hope the Minister, in face of the sound example set him by his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, will give favourable consideration to the question of allowing a matter of this kind, upon which there is a dispute, to be referred to an independent tribunal so that the matter can be decided once and for all and the dispute resolved by reference to an independent party.
The Minister can hardly claim for himself the privilege that he has the right to be the defendant and at the same time the judge, jury and sheriff. That is the rôle in which the Minister is appearing in connection with this matter. I hope he will indicate that he proposes to accept that method, which is reasonable and will commend itself to all reasonably-minded people, of settling a dispute which has gone on for a very considerable time.
The Minister has also a claim for increased wages in respect to his engineering workmen. He and his predecessors have had that claim under [1457] consideration for a very long period. Recently he indicated that he hoped to be able to communicate an early decision. When the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs or the Department say that they hope to communicate an early decision, one must not be misled by language of that kind, particularly when it is used by anybody connected with the Post Office administration. After all, “early” has some meaning, even if it is different in the Post Office, and I hope the Minister will tell us when that decision is likely to be communicated.
Mr. Brasier: I was very glad to hear the rosy report made by the Minister, following his first year in office at the head of this Department, particularly as previous reports in regard to the post office were of a very depressing character. The Minister's optimistic note leads me to hope that he will now consider the advisability of establishing a daily delivery in many of the rural areas. The greatest possible inconvenience is caused by the fact that there are only two-day or, as in some places, three-day deliveries in the week. While members of the agricultural population may not receive a very large correspondence, the importance of whatever correspondence they receive cannot be denied. In many areas deliveries of live stock and other commodities have to be carried out immediately and notification from a particular firm in relation to live stock or the delivery of manure and other things of that sort has often been so delayed as to cause a serious loss to the farmer.
I am all the more encouraged to make a demand for better deliveries because the post office is a very great gainer by the fact that the county boards of health have been giving numerous substantial guarantees for telephone services in rural areas that otherwise might not be established. A conservative policy may sometimes be advisable in the Posts and Telegraphs Department, but having regard to the great importance of production at the present time and to the importance also of the quick notification of the deliveries or receipt of goods, it is of [1458] extreme importance that the Minister would consider restoring these daily deliveries. There is one special place in my constituency, that is Donoughmore, where the farmers are absolutely insistent on asking the post office to give a daily delivery of letters. What the Department would lose on the swings they would gain on the roundabouts. In a public service like this, it is of great importance that the community should be properly served. At one time they had in these areas a daily delivery but, because of economies, that is now restricted. Economies are very admirable at times but there are other things more important and I would ask the Minister at this special time to bear that in mind.
In various parts of the country, particularly along the seaboard, there are places where large numbers of people assemble during the summer holiday season. In the case of a single line of telephone to such a village people find it necessary to book a call early in the morning so as to get any prospect of getting a connection or putting their call through during the day. That is a matter which the Minister should seriously consider remedying. I shall be very happy to communicate with the Department directly and give details of a number of things that are badly needing redress; I will do this directly and not take up any more of the time of the House.
Mr. O'Donovan: I was asked to raise a matter that has been already discussed here this evening. It was raised by Deputy Tadhg Murphy on the Gaeltacht Services Vote. That is, the establishment of telephonic communication with the islands of Cape Clear and Sherkin. I understand that some money is available for this service along the western coast. I hope that in the term “western coast” West Cork is also included, and I trust that this service with Cape Clear and Sherkin will be established as quickly as possible. Deputy Murphy stressed the matter this evening with the Parliamentary Secretary for Lands and asked him to intercede with the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I think there is no necessity for me to do more [1459] than emphasise what Deputy Murphy said. It is most essential that this connection should be made.
With regard to the telegraphic services, I want to say that rural areas generally suffer in the matter of delivery fees. The country people have few amenities and the charge for the delivery of a telegram is, in many districts, altogether exorbitant. Along with the other losses on this particular side of the service the Department might very well put up with this small additional loss and give free delivery in rural districts or at least have one standard charge. Within one mile of the post office there is a charge of 3d. or 6d. Why not standardise that charge and make it, say, 6d. all round and not put on a big charge where the distance is three miles or more? Why not let the people who are availing of the service in the towns bear their share of the standard charge so as to meet the situation? In many parts of the country there is no telephone service and people have to depend on the telegraphic service. The only time the service is used is on the occasion of the announcement of a birth, an invitation to a marriage or the report of a death in the family.
On each of these occasions people send a good many wires and the charges for delivery are very severe. I think the Minister should consider that matter. As regards the restoration of the daily postal service to country areas I would like to point out that in the past when the post office was not paying nearly as well as it is to-day we had that service. I do not see any reason why the people in the country places should have to suffer the inconvenience caused by the restricted service. The people in many areas are without any telephone service, they have not the benefit of the wireless service and they are denied the daily delivery of letters. Had they this service many of them would be able to keep in touch with world affairs because of the newspapers the postman would be able to deliver to them. The daily delivery would insure that the postman would be able to take the paper along with the other [1460] letters. These are a few of the matters I now wish to raise. I urge the Minister to give them his serious consideration.
Seosamh O Mongáin: Tá sé ráite nach dtáinig olc ariamh i dtír nach fearrde duine eicínt. Níl fhios agam an é an cogadh no an t-athrú Aire is cúis leis an athrú atá tagtha ar an Radio. Agus is athrú chun feabhais é go cinnte maidir le Gaedhilge agus Gaedhealachas. Ní fhéadfaidh duine ar bith é sin a cheilt. Castar an oiread daoine ormsa is castar ar Theachta ar bith sa Teach seo, ón taobh ó thuaidh, ón taobh ó dheas, ó thiar agus thoir, agus níl duine ariamh dár labhair liom nár dubhairt go raibh feabhas air.
Na hamhráin bhíodh Donnchadh Mac Donnchadha ag cur ar fáil ar an Radio bhíodar go háluinn agus chuir sé go leor againn ag cuimhneamh ar áilleacht na tíre agus an dream a bhí ann fada ó shoin. Ní bheadh súil agat le tada ó mhac a athar seo, mar budh é an duine galánta agus áluinn bhí ann féin. Gan aimhreas, rinne sé an oiread leis an Teach seo chur ar bun le aonduine eile le n-a linn. Fear eile, Cormac Mac Fhionnlaoich, le ceol agus le fonn agus le amhráin agus le stair na tíre níl a sharú ann.
Ach má d'fhága mé ar deireadh é ní le donas é: sin é an fear, D.L. Kelleher, atá ag cur síos dúinn gach Satharn ar na condaethe agus ar na rudaí atá ionta agus ar an dream a bhí ionta. Síleann go leor daoine nach raibh maith sa tír seo gur fhás muid féin suas, ach duine ar bith a bhíos ag éisteacht le D.L. kelleher bhainfeadh sé an phostúlacht seo as mar bhí daoine íontacha, galánta, seasamhacha agus fíor sa tír seo sul á rugadh ceachtar againn. Dá gcoinníodh muid seo roimh ár súile go minic b'fhéidir go mbeadh muid níos gráDiaúla agus níos deise le chéile. Ba mhaith an rud go leor de na seanrudaí a chur romhainn go mion agus go minic agus molaim leis an Aire é dhéanamh cho minic agus is féidir leis é. Duine ar bith nach maith leis seo is féidir leis an eochair a chasadh agus bheith ag éisteacht leis an tír is maith leis.
In áiteacha faoi'n tír, san áit nach bhfuil ach telefón nó dhó, ba ceart an [1461] £8 no £9 de chíos atá ar telefón ionta a laigheadú cho híseal is atá sé sna bailte móra dá mb'fhéidir é. Faghann na bailte móra go leor seachas sin nach bhfaghann na bailte beaga agus ba ceart roinnt a leigean chuig na bailte beaga.
Tá cupla áit sa tír sin againne ar cheart maith a dhéanamh dhóibh agus telefón a chur ionta. Áit acu Corr na Mónadh agus ba ceart telefón a chur ann. Tá sé tuairim is sé mhíle ó telefón mar tá sé. Ba ceart don Aire breathnú amach d'áit den tsórt sin. Tagann go leor strainséaraí an bealach sin ach ní dóibh-san atá mé ag iarraidh an ruda seo ar an Aire ach do mhuintir na háite. Bíonn orthu go leor airgid íoc ar telegram ar bith fhaghas siad. Ní fhéadfa an tAire, ar ndóigh, gach uile shórt a dhéanamh ach ba mhór ar fad an mhaith a bheadh déanta aige dá dtagadh sé de chabhair ar mhuintir na háite sin agus telefón a thabhairt dóibh. Cuir i gcás dá mbeadh dochtúr ag teastáil uatha chaithfeadh siad dul ocht no naoi de mhílte agus bheadh moill mhór ann agus contabhairt dá réir. Nuair a bhíos duine in ospidéal freisin is mór an imní bhíos ag a mhuintir dó agus ba mhór an mhaith a dhéanfadh sé dóibh bheith i ndon scéala fháil faoi, rud nach mbeadh aon fháil acu air mara mbeadh telefón comhgarach dóibh. Ba mhór an tairbhe dhóibh é gan aimhreas telefón a bheith in aice láthair acu.
General MacEoin: I want to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that in a number of country districts and villages the telephone service has been extended to the Gárda barracks, where there is no public call office in the local post office. In a number of places, by permission of the Gárdaí, some use is made of the instrument in the barracks, but that is not satisfactory, as the Gárdaí have a decided objection to the public using their telephone. I think, in cases where the telephone has been installed in a post office, a public call office should be established there so that a call could be made from it without inconveniencing, annoying or straining the regulations made by the Gárdaí authorities. The [1462] present practice is very inconvenient. In my opinion, if the people in the rural districts were able to use the telephone you would have more people in the larger towns installing the service, because it would be a great accommodation to all concerned. Deputy Norton referred to the pay of various members in the Post Office service. He forget, I think, to mention the people who have suffered the greatest hardship of all in that connection, namely, rural postmistresses and rural postmen.
Mr. Norton: The postman was included in my remarks.
General MacEoin: The poor postmistress was not.
Mr. Norton: I am letting the Deputy off with that.
General MacEoin: I would prefer if the Deputy had taken up the cudgels on her behalf as well, because he seems to be the grandfather of the lot, and could handle this better than I can hope to. To my knowledge, the duties of Post Office officials have been increased considerably in recent years by the payment of unemployment assistance, the issuing of dog licences and work of that kind. No doubt some allowance is made to them for those extra duties, but I submit that it is totally inadequate. Sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses have practically a whole-time job, but in most cases the wage they receive is a miserable one. I know some sub-post offices where there is a good deal of work to be done, and yet the pay is as low as £18 and £20 a year.
General MacEoin: To my own knowledge it is as low as the figures I have mentioned. In other places it may be even lower. If the room in which the work is done had to be rented, the sum that I have mentioned would not be sufficient to meet the rent, without taking into consideration at all payment for the time and services rendered by those people. The pay of the rural postman, for whom Deputy Norton has already spoken, is a disgrace. When [1463] he has finished his daily delivery of letters he can do no other work, no matter how short his journey may be, and I may say that I do not know any short ones. Four or five hours of the day are occupied in doing his journey, walking or cycling. That means that the man's whole day is gone. In view of the wages allowed under statute or by order to agricultural workers and others, I consider that the pay of the rural postman is totally inadequate, and that the Minister should give a decision on this matter at the earliest possible moment with a view to improving the condition of those men.
On the question of the appointment of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses I have not very much to complain of except this: that where a person has been working in a post office for four or five years that person should get a preference in the matter of appointment when a vacancy arises in the office. I submit to the Minister that the Department should accept that principle: that in the case of a vacancy arising in an office that person should get a preference over anybody else. To my knowledge a post office became vacant some time ago. A person had been working in it for ten years. This was an office in which money order and telegraph work was done. The sub-postmaster died, and the vacancy arose. This person who had been engaged in the office for ten years carried on until the new person was appointed. The lady I refer to made application for the appointment. She succeeded in getting the old post office premises. Notwithstanding the fact that she had higher qualifications than the person appointed, and that she was a good, solid, sound supporter of the Minister's Party as well, simply because a better supporter of it came along, she was knocked out and the other supporter got the appointment. I think that that is not a sound principle.
Mr. Norton: It is a long-established one.
General MacEoin: It may be, but that does not make it anything sounder. I submit that there should [1464] be a governing principle applied in every case that employees who have spent a number of years at that work should get a preference over all others, irrespective of the other people's political affiliations. The next point I want to stress is the question of a daily delivery, which is a very important matter. I know that there are financial difficulties in the way of a daily delivery, but I do not know that it would cost very much more to have it. There are several routes that could be amalgamated with existing ones and I think the extra cost would not be very heavy. In every case where these routes can be amalgamated the Minister should consider the advisability of putting on a daily delivery.
As for the charge for the delivery of telegrams, the cost is rather high when you live three or four miles away from a post office. The first statute mile, of course, is free, but if you are one perch over that the charge is 3d., and for every mile after that it is 3d. additional. If you are four or five miles from a post office and you receive five or six telegrams in the day, the cost, at 9d. each, runs up to something in a very short time. I think that there should be a maximum rate as well as a minimum rate. Where a person gives notice at the post office that he will call for the telegrams at certain times during the day there should be an arrangement made by which that would be allowable. I do not know whether that is so at present, but it would save the individual from these extra charges. Finally I want to stress the question of the pay, or salary, or allowances of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses and I ask the Minister to give sympathetic and favourable consideration to their claim. I do not know whether they have actually made a claim or not, but I know that in justice they are entitled to an increase in the meagre salary or allowance, whatever it may be called, that is given to them.
Mr. Hickey: I should like to tell the Minister of an experience I had recently in Cork. I wanted to send a telegram to Galway some time between 7.30 and 8 o'clock in the evening, and [1465] I was surprised to find that it could not be accepted at the post office because it would not be delivered in Galway that evening. The only alternative for me was to telephone to a certain person in Galway. When I went to telephone from the post office, I was told I could not do it, and I had to go to a public kiosk outside. That was a rather exceptional experience to have in a place like Cork.
I also want to remind the Minister of an application made to him by the public assistance board and the board of health in Cork to have a telephone kiosk erected in one of the housing scheme areas. There have been 779 houses built outside the City of Cork area, and, as I say, an application was made for a public telephone kiosk in one of those areas. In reply we were asked if we could give an idea of the number of calls that would be made if the kiosk were put up. We pointed out that the dispensaries were a long distance from these housing schemes and that great difficulty would arise when a doctor or midwife was required. The reply to that was that unless we were able to give an idea of the number of calls that would be made during the year they could not see their way to put up a kiosk. I think that is not the way to treat an area where there are 779 houses which are some two miles from the post office. There are seven dispensary doctors in Cork, all living within the city area, and with 779 families living outside the city, two miles from the post office, it is rather peculiar that the Department would not agree to put up a telephone kiosk for their convenience.
I agree with what Deputy Dillon said about having a telephone kiosk where taxi men are plying for hire. Recently a number of taxi men in Cork asked me if I could get the post office authorities to remove the public kiosk from where it is at present to the centre of Patrick Street where the taxi men are plying for hire. So far they have not been granted that concession. I am at a loss to know why such a request as that should be turned down. It is only a question of moving the kiosk about 100 yards so as to convenience the taxi men. At present if anybody wants a [1466] taxi he has to ring up the Victoria Hotel or the Imperial Hotel and ask them to send the taxi. The taxi people are only asking that the kiosk should be erected where they could be rung up, as is done in Dublin. I suggest to the Minister that such a request as that should be acceded to, as it comes from people who would not lightly ask for such a concession. I hope the Minister will look into the points I have raised.
Mr. Byrne: About six months ago I had a letter from a rural postman asking me if I could help him to get a passport for his daughter to go to America. He finished up his letter by saying that his only employment was that of a postman at 18/- a week. I could not credit that a postman in the service of the State would only have 18/- per week wages, but I made inquiries and found it was true. That is a very bad example to set to other employers in this country. Whether the man worked a regular number of hours per day or not, I do not know, but I certainly think that a man wearing a State uniform should be paid a wage which would enable him to keep his wife and family. Even if he had only one delivery per day and for that reason was only paid that small wage, I think it is very unfair. I join with other Deputies in appealing to the Minister to see that rural postmen are paid a reasonable wage. I understand also that there are sorting assistants employed who are paid from £1 to 30/- per week. I do not know where these junior sorting assistants get their experience if their wages are only £1 or 30/- per week. With other Deputies, I appeal to the Minister to see that a decent living wage is paid to post office employees.
Mr. Dockrell: I want to raise one hardy annual with the Minister; in fact, it might be described as a perennial, except that it is a long time since there has been any bloom from it. It is about the St. Andrew Street post office. It is years ago since that figured on the Estimates. There was always something elusive about the St. Andrew Street post office. I think it was the Agricultural Credit Corporation who were putting up a block of buildings in [1467] St. Andrew Street and it appeared as if, without any consultation with the post office or taking into consideration the post office requirements, in some mysterious way accommodation was to be provided for a post office in that building.
The reason I state that is that when I asked if they were going to take into account the density of the traffic there, and to make provision to ensure that there would not be a line of vehicles standing outside the post office, I was assured that that would be all right, that there would be an inside well for vehicles and that they would go into that out of the way of the traffic. That would presuppose that somebody had envisaged the requirements of a post office such as would be required in St. Andrew Street, but apparently it has disappeared off the map altogether. There is no mention in the Estimates of any sum for the post office. In fact, I thought that it had disappeared altogether, but the Minister referred to two cables that were going to be brought into St. Andrew Street Post Office. I should like to ask him seriously whether any plans have been drawn up for that building or whether any contract has been entered into. Mind you, if a contract was entered into for the building two years ago and has been postponed until now, somebody is going to pay dearly for it because the cost of building is going up very much. I should like the Minister to tell us what is the position. Are there any plans for the St. Andrew Street Post Office or is it totally illusory? Is it going to be proceeded with? What is blocking the erection of a post office on that site?
Mr. Benson: I should like to trot out a hardy perennial which, unlike Deputy Dockrell's perennial, has got a little bloom on it and it blooms on the Malahide Road. That is the “rural automatic” to which reference has been made by the Minister. The Minister at one stage in his remarks to-day said, as I understood, that there were ample supplies of necessary materials to carry on this year, but yet when he came to the [1468] rural automatic telephone he said it would have to stop because of inability to obtain necessary instruments and so forth. I do not know how these two statements can be reconciled but possibly the Minister, in his reply, will be able to reconcile them. He referred to the fact that the telegraph system had made a loss of £129,000 in 1938-39 and that the position for 1939-40 was certainly no better.
It seems, if this rural automatic telephone is capable of proper development, that Deputy Dillon's desire that the telegraph system should be allowed to rest in peace has a reasonable chance of being realised because if the rural automatic telephone is a success, surely the majority of the telegrams can be telephoned and handled in that manner? We can also get over the objection which, I think, Deputy MacEoin raised, about the delivery charge for telegrams in the country. It seems that if the rural automatic telephone system is properly developed, the number of telephone calls must increase very greatly because the present system whereby the exchange is closed down at 8 o'clock nullifies one of the biggest advantages of the telephone system, which is that it is available at all hours particularly at such times as during the night when it may be wanted in an emergency.
I cannot agree with Deputy Dillon's remarks on the question of 0, 31 and 39. There has possibly been some slight improvement but there is still some delay in getting answers to these numbers in the exchange. I would urge that at such times as there is a heavy demand on the telephone system, there should be an additional staff to answer these numbers. It usually means, particularly in the case of 31 that there is some urgency about it, that the other subscriber has not been found or something of that nature and that some further information is necessary. Yet, there are times when one has to wait for a very considerable time before one gets any answer at all from the inquiries number.
Mr. Hughes: I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the state of many of our post offices in provincial [1469] towns and villages. I think that as public offices they are a disgrace. Some of them are in a very poor, insanitary condition and many of them want a little renovation or a little bit of painting. In some cases a decent coat of white-wash would make them bright and cheery. Certainly that would not cost very much and I suggest that the Minister might pay a little attention to that matter. As public institutions, one would certainly expect them to be kept in a better condition, especially in some of the more important towns in the country. In an important town like Carlow, we have a very poor type of post office. The office is certainly very gloomy.
I think that the local authority in Carlow made representations to the Minister's predecessor on the matter of telephone services. They asked for a night and a Sunday service there. I think they have a night service but they have no Sunday service whatever. I mentioned the matter to the Minister himself in the last few weeks. I think a town like Carlow is entitled to consideration. It would certainly be a great benefit to the people to have a Sunday service. It would not cost very much and I would ask the Minister to bear that in mind.
Mr. Little: The first question I should like to answer was asked by Deputy Corish. He asked what was a “carrier” circuit. It is a telephone conversation that is carried by high frequency currents. Several such circuits, each bearing its own conversation, work over a single pair of wires. Deputy Dillon apparently does not like to be interrupted in his conversations, or to be reminded that his discussion on the telephone is pretty lengthy. We are considering, as a matter of fact, making it easier for people who wish to do so, to carry on lengthy conversations on the telephone. The introduction of a sound indicator of the length of the call is under consideration. At the present time there are the usual difficulties in getting supplies. In some cases we have an adequate supply but, in regard to certain things which we have to bring across the water any promise [1470] we make is conditional on our being able to get such supplies.
Deputy Dillon had some difficulty regarding the telephone from Ballaghaderreen to Waterford. Knowing the distance, he would like to be able to know also what the charge would be. The system upon which the circuits are arranged and the existing basis of charge are framed on the radial distance between the exchanges connected for a call. This basis is sound in principle. Much more operating and extensive circuits may be involved between places in the same county than by calls between neighbouring counties. The distance would not be as the crow flies but from one exchange to another, connecting, say, from Ballaghaderreen to Waterford. I am sure the charges are ascertainable, but it is a little bit complicated owing to the system.
I was also asked about the early closing of country exchanges. The normal hours at exchanges with less than ten subscribers are from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. on week-days and from 9 a.m. to 10.30 a.m. on Sundays. Where there are ten subscribers and upwards, the service is extended to 10 p.m. on week-days and additional attendance is given on Sunday evenings from 7 p.m. to 9 p.m. Where continuous attendance is given at provincial exchanges, the traffic arising after 10 p.m. is, on the whole, negligible. The cost of any general extension of hours would not be justified, particularly in existing circumstances. The real solution of the question for rural exchanges is, as Deputy Benson has pointed out, the development of the semi-automatic system, which would be the ultimate solution. It may be said that this is a complicated system the apparatus for which must be got from abroad— mainly from U.S.A. Apart from present difficulties in getting such supplies the provision of these rural automatic exchanges would have to be a very gradual process, even in normal times. More than one Deputy raised the question of porterage charges on telegrams. Prior to July, 1936 the charge was 6d. a mile for distances beyond one mile. A reduction to 3d. a mile was then made. There is free [1471] delivery up to one mile; the charge of 3d. a mile beyond the first mile is less than the cost of delivery and involves a substantial loss. The cost of an extension of the free delivery area to two miles would be £2,200; of an extension to three miles, £3,600. The amount collected annually for porterage—for delivery over one mile—is about £4,000. Considering that we have already a heavy loss of £129,000 on telegraphs, it is not a service on which we would be prepared to increase our losses.
Deputy Dillon—and also Deputy Hickey, I think—raised the question of Kiosks. As a matter of fact, there are near the taxi ranks actual telephones for the purpose of calling taxis at the principal ranks in Dublin and the numbers of the telephones are in the directory. Those phones are not in kiosks. Kiosks cost a considerable sum of money and careful inquiry has to be made as to whether the place is suitable for a kiosk or not. As a matter of fact, I think I can say that the place to which the Deputy referred is one which has been the subject of inquiry and if found suitable we will put one there. Deputy Hickey asked how it was that he had to go to a Kiosk rather than to the post office in Cork. That is because the staff is limited there and after certain hours, and under present conditions, it is not found wise that the post office itself should be used and we ask people to go instead to a telephone outside.
Deputy Norton raised the question of uniforms. The delay as I am sure he realises—is due to the present emergency, but the uniforms will certainly be sent out by the month of June. We can undertake that.
Mr. Little: Hardly, I am afraid. The Deputy may also have noticed that even in England a warning is given about the necessity to economise on all cloth materials and so on, so I think we will have to be forgiven for not delivering them at the usual time.
Deputy Norton also raised the general question of the wages obtained. [1472] Perhaps I may refer briefly to the history of the claim. In 1934 a general claim for improvement in the basic scales of every Departmental grade, except the supervising grades, was put forward, the cost of which at the mean of the scales would have been at least £272,000 per annum. The claim was, in the main, refused, as it was considered that, generally speaking, the scales in force were adequate and the demands not sustainable. Certain increases were, however, considered to be justified for particular grades, and improvements were authorised and became operative in December, 1935, which involved additional expenditure of approximately £14,300 per annum. Subsequently, a concession reducing the net working hours of full-time Post Office employees from 48 to 44 hours a week was sanctioned, at a cost of approximately £12,300 per annum.
Early in 1937 a further demand for wages increases was submitted which, if conceded, would have cost the Department about £141,000 a year. No reasonable ground could be found for acceding to the demand, and it had accordingly to be refused.
The claim, however, continued to be pressed and, following a discussion between representatives of the Post Office Workers' Union and Deputy Traynor in February, 1939, the general wage position was further examined. The Department was and is satisfied that existing scales of remuneration of the various classes for the work required of them are, in general, adequate, especially when the security of tenure which Civil Service employment ensures and the valuable privileges associated therewith are taken into account, and it is satisfied, in particular, that no case exists for an increase in the maximum in any instance. Re-examination of the question was chiefly directed towards ascertaining whether some steepening of certain of the scales would be justified, so that officers might reach their maxima in a shorter period. The investigation had not, however, been completed when the emergency arose in September last, and I much regret that it will not be possible to give the matter further consideration while existing conditions obtain.
[1473] The Deputy asked that we should agree to an independent tribunal to be appointed to deal with this matter and give judgement. That is, of course, a matter really for the Department of Finance. Perhaps the Deputy's memory is a bit shorter than mine. I have a kind of recollection of a certain general election which was fought on the broad principle of which the Deputy is trying to get in the thin end of the wedge now.
Mr. Norton: The Deputy is raising this independent of the general question. The Deputy is asking the Minister to follow the advice given to him by his colleague the Minister for Industry and Commerce and by the Government Press organ yesterday.
Mr. Little: It is a question which really should be referred to the Department of Finance.
Mr. Norton: Will the Minister do that?
Mr. Little: I am afraid it involves a very big principle and I would not like to hold out any hope. The Deputy also raised the question of the claim of the engineering workmen. In regard to the claim for increased scales made on behalf of officers in the engineering skilled and semi-skilled grades, Deputy Traynor, who had carefully examined the claim intimated during the Estimate debate last year that the heavy expenditure which acceptance would involve would not be justified. In regard to the allowance paid for the more highly skilled duties a reasonable case exists for a measure of improvement. I have accordingly obtained the sanction of the Minister for Finance for increases in the allowance payable to skilled workmen, class II, and acting unestablished skilled workmen for various specified duties. Particulars of the improved allowances and of the conditions attached to them will be communicated to the Deputy and to the officers concerned with as little delay as possible.
Deputy Brasier and Deputy O'Donovan both raised the question of daily delivery. Out of about 4,000 posts only 1,700 have less than six-day service. [1474] Substantial increases in frequency were given within the last few years. Of course, we have to have regard to economy at present. The first reaction after the crisis was rather to cut down rural services than to increase them. That will not be done, and I think we have achieved something in preventing that, but I do not think that we will be in a position, having regard to the economies which must be made, to increase the services, certainly not, I think, this year.
Mr. Brasier: Will the Minister keep the matter before him and consider what increases can be made?
Mr. Little: Certainly we will inquire into any individual case.
Mr. Brasier: I mentioned one place, Donoughmore. Perhaps the Minister will inquire into that?
Mr. Little: Certainly, we will take a note of that and inquire if it would be economic to have a six-day service there. Deputy Mongan rather forestalled the Broadcasting Vote. I was reluctant to interrupt him because he was speaking so nicely of the broadcasting service of Radio Athlone. I did not like to point out to him that he had rather forestalled my statement on it. At the same time that does not prevent me from expressing my gratitude to him for his appreciation of the good work done by the broadcasting service. He also mentioned that he would like to see a reduction in telephone charges. That is rather a difficult matter because, in the case of the telephone service, the reductions in rates which were conceded in 1936 resulted in an immediate annual drop in revenue of about £9,500 and, although that has been more than recovered by growing traffic, expenditure on the service has been mounting mainly by reason of extra cost for staff and plant necessary for the disposal of the augmented traffic. The profit of £105,000, approximately, which existed in 1935-36 was, in 1939-40, down to approximately £66,000.
Even in Great Britain, where, by reason of the huge trade and business [1475] carried on, it might be expected that lower rates would induce compensating traffic, the experience has been the same. So that I think that having made one attempt to do that—and it has been successful—it would be some time yet before we would dare to venture on another reduction, especially having regard to the economies necessary at the present time. The Deputy also mentioned that some areas in the Gaeltacht were neglected. He specially mentioned Cornamona. I shall certainly have the matter inquired into and see if we can deal with it and give satisfaction.
Deputy MacEoin raised the question of the police barracks 'phone, and said that sometimes it is not suitable for use by the public. In any place where call offices may be required, if we are told about it, we certainly shall inquire into the matter and see if it would be suitable to place a call office in the town. He also raised one of the hardy annuals, the question of increasing the payment of sub-postmasters, which I am afraid at the present time, however sympathetic one may feel about it, would be very difficult to do. It is not a popular time to be a Minister for Posts and Telegraphs because of the necessity for very severe stringency in all these matters.
Mr. Norton: Why did not you do it before now?
Mr. Little: Of course, I can say I was not there. I would have given you everything with two hands when I was not there. We have been looking into the matter of the sub-postmasters, and I may say that official inquiries in the matter are approaching completion. Sub-postmasters are paid on a unit basis on the volume of the various classes of post office business transacted in their offices. The question of the revision of their conditions is one of considerable complexity. The heavy pressure under which the Department has been labouring, especially since the emergency arose, has impeded progress. I hope to be in a position to communicate a decision soon, but, so far as my information goes, there seems [1476] to be little prospect of existing conditions warranting any concession being made in the matter. Deputies should remember, in considering the remuneration of sub-postmasters, that their positions are not of a full-time character. They are not supposed to depend, and do not in practice depend solely upon the post office emolument. In practically all cases they engage in business of one kind or another. Moreover, the numerous applications for sub-post office vacancies and the energy with which they are pursued do not suggest that sub-postmasters regard the remuneration offered as seriously inadequate.
More than one Deputy complained of the payment of part-time postmen. In the case of part-time postmen, they are paid at the rate of approximately 1/- an hour. They are merely part-time and they are supposed to be able to get other work as well.
Mr. Byrne: And if they cannot get work?
Mr. Norton: The post office does not care.
Mr. Little: They are, then, better off than the people who cannot get work and who are not temporary postmen.
Mr. Byrne: Is there some truth in the suggestion that postmen are being paid 18/- a week?
Mr. Little: Yes, because three hours' work a day is all they are doing for that amount.
Mr. Byrne: That is not a credit to the post office, is it? They would work more if you would give them work.
Mr. Little: But there is not the post office work there for them to do other than three hours a day.
Mr. Byrne: They ought to be paid a wage on which they could keep their families at home and not have to send them to America.
[1477]Mr. Little: It is only a part-time job and I can assure the Deputy that there is very keen competition to get these posts.
General MacEoin: There is competition for the dole of 3/-.
Mr. Little: Certainly, under present conditions, it would not be fair for me to suggest that we could hold out any hope of making a change. Deputy Byrne referred to the sorting assistants, but I think that the people he had in mind as getting from £1 to 30/- must be very junior. Deputy Dockrell raised the question of the St. Andrew Street Post Office. On this site will be housed a new post office and trunk telephone exchange, the latter linked with the trunk exchange at present being installed in the Exchequer Street premises acquired from the Hospitals' Trust last year. The original intention was that the Agricultural Credit Corporation should share the building with the post office, but that body has withdrawn from the scheme. The plans originally prepared are, accordingly, now unsuitable and they will have to be revised. The preparation of amended plans will be pursued as expeditiously as possible. It is the intention to dispose of the present College Green branch office when the new St. Andrew Street branch office is occupied.
Mr. Dockrell: Have you acquired the site for the new post office there?
Mr. Little: Yes, we are going ahead now according to the changed plans. Deputy Hughes raised the question of attention being given to keeping post offices clean. Of course, in that connection the responsibility so far as sub-post offices are concerned lies with the sub-postmaster or sub-postmistress, and if any such case were to be pointed out, I think it would be a case for drawing the attention of the sub-postmaster or sub-postmistress to the matter. I think, however, that such cases would be very unusual, because these sub-offices are usually kept very well. I shall bear in mind the Deputy's reference to Carlow post [1478] office. Deputy O'Donovan mentioned the case of certain islands in the south of Ireland, and all I can say is that these are going to receive special attention.
Minister for Defence (Mr. Traynor): I move:—
Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £2,237,020 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1941, chun an Airm agus Cúltaca an Airm (maraon le Deontaisí áirithe i gCabhair) fé sna hAchtanna Fórsaí Cosanta (Forálacha Sealadacha), agus chun costaisí áirithe riaracháin ina dtaobh san; chun costaisí Oifig an Aire Cóimhriartha Cosantais, agus chun costaisí áirithe fé sna hAchtanna um Chiontaí in aghaidh an Stáit, 1939 agus 1940, agus fén Acht um Réamhchúram in aghaidh Aer-Ruathar, 1939.
That a sum not exceeding £2,237,020 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for the Army and the Army Reserve (including certain Grants-in-Aid) under the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts, and for certain administrative expenses in connection therewith; for the expenses of the Office of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures, and for certain expenses under the Offences Against the State Acts, 1939, and 1940, and the Air-raid Precautions Act, 1939.
The Army Estimate for the financial year, 1940-41, rests on an emergency establishment for the regular Army, including officers and crews for vessels, of 14,243 all ranks. This figure is made up of: officers, 1,065; N.C.Os., 2,993; other ranks, 8,874; crews for vessels, 136, cadets, 75; recruits, 1,100; making a total of 14,243.
Compared with the establishment obtaining last September, when the
[1479] Volunteer and Reserve forces were mobilised, this emergency establishment shows a decrease of 29 officers and 6,793 other ranks.
During the present year, it is intended to keep the regular Army at a strength of 1,065 officers and 12,003 other ranks (including crews for vessels), but if conditions warrant, it is also intended to reduce the Army further to an extent consistent with safety. In addition to that number, we shall maintain 75 cadets and 1,100 recruits. Of the cadets, 50 are already studying at the Military College, and 25 will be recruited from the open competitive examination held annually by the Civil Service Commissioners, or from N.C.Os. in the Army. In addition, 20 short term commissions in the Air Corps will be given and these are provided for in the strength of officers.
As regards the 1,100 recruits, we hope for a steady flow of 1,100 recruits for the Volunteer force every three months of the year. They will undergo initial training for a period of three months with the regular Army and will then be transferred to the Reserve.
The cost of maintaining this force of 14,243, all ranks, together with 9 chaplains, 17 nurses, 3 civilian doctors, and a number of officiating clergymen who are not, of course, included in the Emergency Establishment, is £2,099,270 approximately, and is made up as follows:—Pay £1,135,264, personal cash allowances £424,104, personal allowances in kind £516,028, transport £23,874; making a total of £2,099,270.
The strength of the Reserve, as distinct from the Regular Army, for which this Estimate provides, is 11,757 all ranks. That is made up as follows:— Class A Reserve 1,532, Class B Reserve 138, Officers Reserve 57, Volunteer Force 10,030; making a total of 11,757.
Included in the figure of 10,030 for the Volunteer Force are 286 officers and 4,376 recruits. The latter are expected to receive initial as distinct from annual training during the year.
The cost of the entire Reserve Force of 11,757 all ranks is £125,579, and is [1480] made up in the following manner:— Pay £94,191, personal cash allowances £10,415, personal allowances in kind £13,422, transport £4,280, other services £3,271; making a total of £125,579.
The salaries, wages and allowances of civilians form another item in the direct cost of the Army. The total number of civilians paid by the Army and covered by this Estimate is approximately 1,199. They cover a variety of occupations such as labourers, tradesmen, herds, caretakers, technical experts and civil servants, and the total cost of such services as represented in this Estimate is £236,668.
Another element of expenditure covered by this Estimate is the purchase and maintenance of stores. Here it is necessary to distinguish, as the Estimate itself distinguishes, between ordinary and warlike stores. Ordinary stores may be generally described as stores not directly destined for fighting purposes, and include such items as medical appliances, mechanical transport, petrol and oils, vessels, animals and forage, fuel, light and water, barrack services, engineer stores, motor cycles, bicycles, shops equipment, etc. Their cost as shown in this Estimate is approximately £334,607. Warlike stores, on the other hand, are stores directly intended for fighting purposes. They include rifles, machine guns, revolvers, field guns, anti-aircraft guns, tanks, fighting vehicles, aircraft, patrol vessels, motor torpedo boats, with all their necessary components and accessories. The cost of such stores as borne on the present Estimate is approximately £460,651.
Another service covered by the Vote, but not directly concerned with the Army as a fighting force, is the protection of the civil population against air and gas attack, or, as it is more generally called, A.R.P. The amount provided under this sub-head includes £87,500 as grants to local authorities, £10,000 as grants to essential undertakers, and a sum of £19,355 for miscellaneous stores and equipment.
Finally, there are a number of minor services covered by the Estimate which [1481] cannot be included in any of the headings already dealt with. These include the incidental services provided under sub-head X—horse shows, military educational courses abroad, telegrams and telephones, compensation, maintenance of military lands, grants to welfare funds, the expenses of special courts, etc. The total cost of such miscellaneous services is £36,123.
The gross cost of the Army as provided for in this Estimate is £3,409,753, and that sum is distributed over the headings already described in the following manner: Pay and allowances of regular Army, £2,099,270, or 61.6 of the total; pay and allowances of Reserve, £125,579, or 3.7 of the total; pay and allowances of civilians, £236,668, or 6.9 of the total; ordinary stores, £334,607, or 9.8 of the total; warlike stores, £460,651, or 13.5 of the total; A.R.P., £116,855, or 3.4 of the total; and miscellaneous services, £36,123 or 1.1 of the total; a total of £3,409,753.
In the debate on the Supplementary Estimate for 1938, it was pointed out that the percentage of the Estimate spent on warlike stores had risen from 5 per cent., in 1932, to 12½ per cent., in 1938, and in the debate on the Supplementary Estimate for 1939, it was suggested that we were not adhering to the policy of buying warlike material in progressively increasing quantities. The figures already given show that there has been no change of policy in respect of such purchases, for they show that, on an analysis of the present Estimate, we propose spending no less than 13½ per cent. of the total Estimate on fighting materials.
Moreover, the sum of £460,651 provided for only represents the value of the stores which in the considered judgement of the Department will be delivered within the financial year. In point of fact, orders have been placed for military and naval stores to the value of approximately £3,385,251, and payments against those orders up to 31st March, 1940, totalled in value £727,815. We have, therefore, orders outstanding to the extent of £2,657,436, and, against them, we are providing the sum of £460,651 in the present [1482] Estimate. We would have provided more had we any reasonable hope of getting delivery of the material, but if our expectations prove during the year to have been too conservative, and if we get more than we expect, it will be necessary to bring in a Supplementary Estimate.
Dr. O'Higgins: Are we dealing with the Army and the Army Pensions Votes, or with the Army Vote alone?
An Ceann Comhairle: The Army Vote only.
Dr. O'Higgins: Am I to move the motion to refer back now?
An Ceann Comhairle: Due notice should be given of motion to refer an Estimate back for reconsideration. The motion to which Deputy O'Higgins refers was not handed in until 3.15 this afternoon, but since the majority of Deputies did not know until this morning that the Army Estimate would be discussed to-day, I am prepared to accept the motion.
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.
If any argument were required in support of this motion, I think it has been supplied by the Minister's speech. In practically a world state of war, when the peoples of all countries are concerned with military policy, military plans and military expenditure and with the dangers, probable or possible, confronting their countries, we have the extraordinary picture of a Minister for War standing up in this Parliament and asking for the largest sum that has been asked for for a very considerable number of years and reading out for us the items in the Book of Estimates. We have got not one word about policy, not one word about plans; we have got not one word of explanation as to why the extra millions of money are required, and not one word of explanation as to what happened the millions already voted.
We are told that there are orders for [1483] warlike stores amounting to about £3,000,000, that the orders have not been filled, and that if they were filled, we would be looking for more. We are not even told where the orders were placed, why they were placed without any understanding as to when the orders would be filled, and whether efforts were made to get them in other places. We have not got a word of explanation as to why we waited to make our preparation until a situation arose when we could not make any preparations. Presumably the men are mobilised to handle instruments. The instruments are not available, cannot be made available, and the Minister does not know when they will be available, but we are going to continue to mobilise men, to feed them, to pay them, and to keep them away from their ordinary trades and avocations. In a poor country like this, with destitution widespread and rapidly increasing, and with the amount of unemployment so great that it is not merely a tragedy, but is in itself a menace to peace, one would imagine that before any Minister would come to the Dáil to ask for £3,500,000, at least he would make some little effort to satisfy the Dáil, and the people it represents outside, that there was a sound and solid reason for asking for the money; and if the money was voted that it was going to be sensibly used according to some plan arrived at to meet some probable danger which he would not shirk indicating. We are supposed to be so very trusting, so very docile in this Assembly, that we would heartlessly turn our backs on conditions outside, and cheerfully walk into the Lobby to vote away millions of money, without even being told why, where we were voting them to, and when we were going to get the goods.
It is only a year since we had the Taoiseach standing up in this House and moving a Defence Estimate, and telling us that it was proposed to spend £1,000,000 on aeroplanes and £1,000,000 on anti-aircraft guns. Was either of these £1,000,000 ever expended? Was it ever the intention to spend £1,000,000 on aeroplanes and £1,000,000 on anti-aircraft guns? Apparently we [1484] have three anti-aircraft guns and the other winged birds broke down under the strain. That is our equipment in that direction. Now we are told that there is a “close-down” at the stores, that the goods that were ordered 12 months ago cannot be delivered and are told by the man responsible for the safety of this country which, apparently, is beset with dangers—if we are to believe that there was any real reason for the mobilisation of the last available man—that the goods ordered to be put into the men's hands have not been supplied, and that he does not know when they will be supplied.
We did embark on a policy of ordering goods from any country that was unlikely to supply them, and studiously and deliberately withheld orders from the only country that was likely to supply them. We found all the foreign countries beset with their own troubles, with war on their frontiers and armies mobilised north, south, east and west. When they did not fulfil the orders placed with them, we placed our orders nearer home, and naturally with the result indicated by the Minister. We had grandiose speeches here about the preparedness of the army for any danger that might threaten this country, with our armouries chock full, our arsenals filled to bursting point, but, judging from the statement we heard to-night, and the events of recent months, the only thing we succeeded in doing was effectively to empty the only arsenal we had. I think it is a responsibility of Parliament to know why it is voting the money, and for what. There is a responsibility on any Minister for Defence, before he comes to Parliament, and asks for double or treble the normal sum, at least to take Parliament into his confidence by telling it why he wants so much money. If there is a danger on the horizon it is his responsibility to have the courage to point out where danger lies, and the direction of the danger.
We had a statement from the Taoiseach to the effect that, following the recent Agreement between this country and Great Britain, war [1485] between the two countries was unthinkable; that if we were involved in any war in the future England would be our natural ally; and that whatever money was wanted by the Minister for Defence was required for the increased efficiency of the combined forces of Great Britain and Ireland. I do not know whether that was a serious statement, made as a result of consideration and discussions, but assuming that it was, surely we should not have the “close-down” on supplies to which the Minister for Defence pointed. Surely there should not be the apparent impossibility of securing equipment for our troops. Surely orders amounting to millions of pounds should not be outstanding for 12 or 18 months, without even a hope of having these orders filled. In view of a statement like that made by the Minister some explanation is required by the Dáil, as to where the orders were placed, and, with a drying-up of the stores, why the orders were not taken from the country concerned and given to some other country; and if our position is to be this, that in the opinion of the Government there is a really dangerous and menacing situation, to such an extent that we have got to treble Army expenditure, and having done that, we are to sit back casually and wait for one, two, three or four years before we get supplies for that Army.
That is what the Minister's statement amounts to—that we may never get the supplies. At best, we may get them next year or the year after but, in the meantime, the situation is sufficiently dangerous to require the extra millions of pounds. Surely the whole statement is contradictory. If the situation is so free of danger that we can wait until 1941 or 1942 to get the material we were told in 1938 was urgently required, if we can wait indefinitely for the material urgently required two years ago, surely you should case the burden on the backs of the people and wait for your extra £1,500,000 annual expenditure—wait until you get the equipment which was urgently required two years ago and which we are now told may never come. I do not know how Deputies sitting [1486] behind the Minister are sufficiently loyal and sufficiently tolerant to put up with the kind of nonsense that is given to us from that Front Bench every time the Army Estimate comes up for discussion. That blind loyalty could be respected if it were not that it is so costly. Can any Deputy sitting opposite, any more than any Deputy sitting here, explain to destitute people in his constituency how he is justified in voting £2,000,000 a year more for the Army when the Minister for Defence says that the equipment, the warlike stores, the armaments and the ammunition for these troops may come next year or may never come? We have got to assume that already it is 12 or 18 months on order.
We have embarked on an Army on a grand scale. Something happened last September and we mobilised, in a panicky, disorderly, discreditable way, every man on whom the Army had then had a grip. We rolled them into barracks without thinking a day in advance as to what was to be done with them the day after or how we were to feed or clothe them the first night there. One would imagine from the haste and panic that an enemy was belching at our gates. Having mobilised the last available man, we spread them out around the bridges, put them scouting on empty lorries up and down the roads and kept them marching and counter-marching and circling around barracks. We know now that we acted in haste and in panic, that nerves got the best of us. We see everything going on the same as ever, but political faces are of more importance than the purses of the people. Having blundered once, we must continue to blunder. Having mobilised, we must continue to pile up the cost and so we get an Army of twice the dimensions we had last year. What was the big danger last September? Prior to last September, there was a doubt in the minds of every responsible person as to how far the neutrality of this country would be respected or recognised. We were told by the Taoiseach that there was no danger of that neutrality being violated by Great Britain, but that there was always the possibility of a [1487] country at war with Britain attempting to invade or do damage to this country. Right up to last September, that doubt was in everybody's mind. But we only proceeded to mobilise the last man when we received assurances —unsolicited assurances—from both sides that our neutrality would be respected. Then we proceeded to mobilise the last man.
I do not believe that it is tactful to go out of our way to give offence to any country. I think that the most offensive thing we could have done was to mobilise immediately we got an unsolicited assurance from the German representative that the neutrality of this country would be respected. However, I am prepared to assume that the Minister or the Government did not impose these extra millions on the people out of a sheer spirit of recklessness. There was some reason. We are the people who are asked to vote the money, and the money we are asked to vote is not our own money. We are asked to vote money out of the pockets of people who cannot afford it. Could we hear even now, in the course of this debate, from what point our neutrality is menaced? I accept the word of the Taoiseach that there is no danger from Great Britain. Is it then contemplated that the German Army is going to run the naval gauntlet in order to land in this country and have a section of their troops isolated here without any line of supply? With what object would that be done? It certainly would not be to obtain command of the resources of this country, because those resources would be worthless unless the seas were open and they could be sent back. It might be for an attack on Great Britain, but there are points on the Continent which could be reached with less risk and which are merely within the same striking distance as we are.
I do not believe that it is wise to go too fully into that, but I want to make this known, that we are asked, as responsible Deputies, to vote millions of pounds in blinkers without being told for what purpose. A halt has got to be called to that. The Minister knows very well that Deputies [1488] on these benches are not unapproachable. The Minister knows full well that there is a sense of honour in Deputies in this House, and that if there is any real danger that he wants to indicate in private in order to justify what appears to be sheer spectacular extortion, then there is not a Deputy in this Party or on the Labour or Independent Benches that he could not take into his confidence with safety. I move to report progress.
Progress reported, the Committee to sit again to-morrow.
General MacEoin: I wish to draw the attention of the Minister to a few facts in connection with the case which was the subject matter of question No. 13 to-day. I consider these facts are of the very greatest importance. I have brought this matter forward in the interest of the widow and orphans of this soldier of the State who died while on service. The Minister, in the course of his reply to my question to-day, made certain observations upon which I would like to comment. Portion of my question indicated that this reservist, Thomas O'Grady, died from cardiac syncope due to haemorrhage from a rupture of the heart. The Minister stated that a court of inquiry was held and that the evidence adduced at the inquiry showed that Reservist O'Grady's heart muscle was diseased, apparently from a previous serious illness, and therefore that he did not die as a result of the injury.
I want to put certain facts before the Minister and the House. First of all, I want to point out that when a soldier goes on Reserve he is examined by the medical authorities attached to the Army and a certificate is given certifying that the man is fit for service on the Reserve. Again, when the reservist is called up for duty he is again examined by the medical people. If he is found fit for service he is sent on to do his month's training, and if he is found unfit he is sent home. I do not think that the Minister will argue, because I know it would not be correct to do so, that the medical people [1489] attached to the Army did not give this reservist, as they would give every reservist and every member of the Army, a thorough examination and, therefore, we must take it that he passed in physically fit when he was called up for training in the first week of August, 1939.
The Minister says that he did not die as the result of the injury received. I would like to draw his attention to the evidence given by Private Stackan at the coroner's inquest. Private Stackan, in reply to the coroner—it appears there was nobody appearing for the unfortunate relatives of the deceased soldier and therefore the witnesses were all examined on one side, as it were—said that the deceased and some other soldiers were wheeling a handcart returning from exercises at Ballyvaughan. Deceased and Private Duffy were behind and Privates Dempsey and Gaynor in front. All went well until they came out of a dyke. They were moving pretty quickly at the time when the cart overturned. It had struck a hump in the ground. It swerved and then turned over. A handle struck deceased, knocking him down. Deceased did not say he was hurt at the time, but continued for approximately one and a half miles.
Now, I presume that is what the Minister is going on. That was corroborated by Private Duffy. Then Doctor C. Maguire, whom I know—he was a member of the Army Medical Service—gave evidence that he carried out a post-mortem examination on the direction of the coroner and he found that death was due to rupture of the left ventricle of the heart, and as a result of the rupture there was haemorrhage into the pericardium. He went on to say that this might be caused by over-exertion. The jury found that the deceased died from cardiac syncope due to haemorrhage from a rupture of the heart.
I have made inquiries from a prominent heart specialist in the city and I would like to tell you his opinion. First of all, I want to point out that this unfortunate man was 37 or 38 years of age. He was examined when going on the Reserve and found fit for [1490] service. He was found fit in the first week of August and on the 28th August he died from this rupture, which I say was caused when he was struck by the cart. This eminent medical authority in Dublin assured me that a rupture of a ventricle of the heart rarely takes place even in the most advanced form of a diseased heart and that the only time a rupture of a ventricle of the heart takes place is when there is a crushing stroke given on the breast and immediately afterwards there is another one on the back—in other words, when a person is hit in front and is violently thrown on the ground on his back, that causes a rupture of the ventricle.
On that point, I submit that the evidence is quite the other way from what the Minister alleges; that the evidence all goes to show that this man died as the result of his injuries. The Minister tells me that a court of inquiry has found otherwise. I know the strength and the value of courts of inquiry. If the court of inquiry found that this man did die as a result of the injury and the coroner's inquest found something else, the Minister would say he was not bound by it and I submit he is not bound by it in this case because the evidence at the inquest was given by the doctor who carried out the post-morten and there was evidence given by two people who saw the accident. There is evidence that O'Grady was in the best of form prior to the accident and he was in a state of collapse immediately after it occurred. I therefore submit that in the interests of justice the Minister should exercise the authority that is vested in him by this House to give to the widow and orphans of this soldier of the State the compensation to which in equity they are entitled.
Mr. Hickey: What happened after they had gone a mile along the laneway subsequent to the accident?
General MacEoin: The soldier was in a state of collapse at the time. He was linked and carried into the bus. They had only wireless communication with the Curragh and an ambulance came out and took him to the Curragh. When [1491] he reached there he was dead. There is no contention about that. The Minister's contention is that he did not die as a result of the injuries. The Minister's reply is that he regrets that he is precluded from considering the question of an ex-gratia grant in consequence of the cause of death found by the court of inquiry. The Minister contends that he did not die as a result of the injury but that he died as a result of a diseased heart. Here are his words:—
“The medical evidence adduced at the inquiry shows that the late Reservist O'Grady's heart was diseased apparently from a previous serious illness.”
That is going a very long distance. I am pointing out to the Minister that when this man was taken into the Army he was examined, and I wish to point out that whatever else medical men might miss they do not miss the “ticker”. They examined that reservist when going into the Reserve. They examined him again when coming out and passed him as fit. What better evidence can you find? The Minister may argue that these were merely slipshod examinations. No, they were very perfect in their examinations. I submit that the Minister from the evidence should reconsider the matter. Even assume for a moment that the doubt is the other way, I submit that the widow and orphans should get the benefit of that doubt.
Mr. Hickey: There is one point I would like to make. I listened with interest to Deputy MacEoin. I know that some time ago a soldier came to me and told me he was discharged from the Army because he had a bad heart. So the authorities do take a special interest in how the heart in any soldier works. Before the Minister replies I just want to say this—that if the late Private O'Grady was employed in any civil occupation and met with a minor accident and died as a result of that, his widow and orphans would always get the benefit of the doubt from the Circuit Court.
[1492]Mr. McMenamin: I was not present to-day when the Minister answered Deputy MacEoin's question. Would the Minister now say did the Army hold a post-mortem themselves independent of the one held for the coroner's jury by which the Minister arrived at the conclusion that this man died as a result of a diseased heart from which he suffered some time before the accident?
Mr. Traynor: At the beginning I would like to say that I feel just as sympathetically disposed in respect of the widow and orphans as Deputy MacEoin or any other Deputy in the House. Unfortunately, I have got to be guided by the regulations. I have got also to interpret all these cases through the medium of the rules and regulations about which Deputy MacEoin himself knows something. Deputy MacEoin quoted some evidence given by witnesses at the coroner's inquest. I have here a statement by a witness who interviewed the unfortunate man immediately after the accident. The witness to whom I refer is a lieutenant and he gave this evidence before the court of inquiry—which was a sworn inquiry. I do not know what Deputy MacEoin means by saying that he knows the strength and the value of courts of inquiry. The statements made before the court were all sworn statements. This is a serious statement by this lieutenant who says:
“On August 28th, 1939, I was platoon commander of No. 14 platoon, D Coy., 3rd Infantry Batt. The platoon was carrying out a delaying action. I was in rear of platoon and we were proceeding along a laneway when I noticed a soldier sitting on the grass. I asked him what was wrong and he said he had a terrible pain in the stomach. He also pointed towards his back. I asked him did he fall or get hurt, and he said he thought he had got a wrench when the machine-gun cart toppled over. I asked him was he struck by the machine-gun cart, and he said ‘No’.”
Mr. McMenamin: When was that statement got from the deceased?
[1493]Mr. Traynor: It was taken while the man was sitting on the dyke.
General MacEoin: While the man was dying?
Mr. Traynor: While he was sitting; I have that evidence here.
General MacEoin: Before the Minister proceeds might I point out to him that there were two soldiers who were with the deceased when he was sitting on the grass. This lieutenant comes along a considerable time afterwards and finds the man in a collapsed condition sitting on the ground. Therefore any statement that he made should be taken in connection with that fact. It is absolutely unfair that any such statement should now be put in against his dependents.
Mr. Traynor: Here is a statement taken from Dr. Charles Maguire who says:
“On the 28th August, 1939, on instructions from the Coroner for West Wicklow, I performed a post-mortem examination on the body of Private Thomas O'Grady. On examination I found the sac surrounding his heart full of blood. On further examination of his heart I found that the left ventricle was perforated, and the heart muscle itself was diseased and very friable from what appeared to be the result of a previous serious illness involving high fever. I concluded that death was due to shock and haemorrhage as a result of a rupture of the heart-wall and shock and also probably due to some unusual exertion.”
Now on cross-examination he stated that “The post-mortem condition of this man's heart could only be diagnosed by an electro-cardiograph and other advanced tests that could escape diagnosis by an ordinary medical examination. It was in my opinion extremely difficult to confine the tests to a diagnosis of the ante-mortem condition of this man's heart”. That would go to explain why this man could have been brought up and put into the service and how this actual [1494] accident could have been brought about. The accident was due, in my opinion, to the diseased state of the man's heart followed by the undue exertion which he put into pushing the cart and to the turning over of the cart which he possibly made a strong effort to prevent. Now, one of the findings of the court of inquiry was that “Thomas O'Grady died as a result of cardiac syncope and haemorrhage following a rupture of the left ventricle of the heart, and over-exertion in the course of his duties. Death did not arise from an injury”. The Deputy mentioned that an ordinary employer would be liable to make a payment to this man under the Workmen's Compensation Acts, and said that the State should do likewise. In saying that I think he was making a mis-statement. If he desires to pursue that further I think that, possibly, he should get some legal advice on the matter. I do not think there is any case here in which workmen's compen sation would be payable even if it were ordinary civilian employment because first of all, there would have to be an injury, and I ask Deputies to marl this, there was no injury here. The injury, if any, would have to be due to something that in the words of the Act occurred in the course of or arose out of his employment. In this case it only occurred in the course of his employment and did not arise out of it. As I said earlier to-day, I am not, as the Deputy seems to think, vested with any powers whereby I could give an ex gratia grant to this man's relatives. I feel as sympathetically disposed towards them as any Deputy in the House, but I am prescribed, and unfortunately cannot take any action in the matter, and there, of course, the matter will have to rest.
General MacEoin: May I just point out——
An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy should remember that the House is not in committee, and indeed has been given considerable latitude.
General MacEoin: May I just put one question?
[1495]General MacEoin: Suppose that Dr. Maguire found otherwise, would the Minister be bound to accept his opinion? Would it not be a fact that the Minister would consult other authorities there and then? Suppose it was a case of workmen's compensation, would not the deceased person's relatives be notified to get counsel and be represented at the inquest, so that [1496] the circumstances and the evidence would be completely different, I think.
Mr. Hickey: May I put one question to the Minister?
The Dáil adjourned at 10.55 p.m. to Thursday, 18th April, at 3 p.m.
[1340]Risteárd Ua Maolchatha: asked the Minister for Justice if he will state in respect of each of the three months ended (1) the 30th June, 1939, (2) 30th September, 1939, and (3) 30th December, 1939, and each of the months of January, February and March, 1940, (a) the number of cases of house-breaking in the Dublin Metropolitan Gárda area, (b) the number of such cases for which persons have been charged, and the number of such persons, (c) the number of cases in which such persons have been convicted and sentenced, and the number of such persons, and (d) the number of such cases in respect of which no person has been arrested or charged.
Minister for Justice (Mr. Boland): The following is the information:—
RETURN OF CASES OF HOUSEBREAKING (INCLUDING BURGLARY) IN DUBLIN METROPOLITAN AREA.Tadhg O Murchadha: asked the Minister for Defence if he will state when he hopes to give a decision in the application of Mrs. Julia Riordan, Butlerstown, Timoleague, County Cork, for a military pension in respect of her membership and service with Cumann na-mBan.
Mr. Traynor: An application for a Service Certificate under the Military Service Pensions Act, 1934, has been received from Mrs. Julia Riordan, Butlerstown, Timoleague, County Cork, and has been referred for report to the referee. As the referee has not yet reported to me, I am not in a position to state when a decision will be communicated to Mrs. Riordan.