Wednesday, 11 June 1941
Dáil Éireann Debate
Mr. Benson: When progress was reported I was drawing the attention of the House to the fact that if this amendment is accepted it allows a public assistance authority, in addition to county councils, to devolve its powers and duties to a parish council, or approved local council, as the Bill describes it, and I was objecting to that in view of the fact that an approved local council has no responsibility to anybody. The effect of allowing it to carry out the duties of a public assistance authority might be that it could distribute money in a more generous fashion than an authority which had a responsibility to those who elected it. My fear is that the amendment, if accepted, would tend to increase the amount of public assistance distributed.
Mr. Ruttledge: What might be delegated to an approved local council would be of a very limited character. The Deputy is concerned that if a public assistance authority delegates to a local council or to an approved council the latter might have power to give home assistance or to give relief. That is reserved to the manager. When the County Management Act is operated that will be a function of the manager. There is no need to worry about that. It is dealt with in Section 29, sub-section (5) (c) of the County Management Act.
General Mulcahy: But a law has been passed in such a way that a public assistance authority can delegate to an approved body the paying of home assistance. How will that idea square with the idea in the Trade Union Bill? In towns like Tipperary or Drogheda labourers’ associations may have been carrying on satisfactory negotiations with employers regarding wages but that is going to be practically forbidden in future by law. It is hard to see where is the principle. In the Trade Union Bill there is a  possibility of a new branch of activity being opened to the law. The Minister is asking the House to pass an amendment in favour of what he rather suggests he would be against.
Mr. Benson: The Minister attempted to torpedo my argument by stating that the disbursement of home assistance would be a managerial function when the Bill becomes operative. Against the section that the Minister quoted in support of his argument, let me quote this for him. Sub-section (3) of Section 16 of the County Management Act gives power to the Minister to transfer duties from the manager to the local authority—at least, so I read it. It appears to me, therefore, that if for any reason an agitation were created in any part of the country, an approved local council could have this power of distributing home assistance. The Minister, under the sub-section I have referred to, could transfer the power to do so from the county manager to the public assistance authority which, in turn, could transfer it to an approved local council. My objection to the Minister’s amendment is, to a certain extent, tied up with my amendment No. 82, which seeks to remove the powers that the Bill allots to approved local councils.
Mr. Benson: So that, in fact, my original argument is sound, provided the Minister does that. It is a possible conclusion, anyway: that, on the acceptance of the Minister’s amendment, it is possible for an approved local council to distribute home assistance.
In sub-section (2), page 32, to delete in line 5 the word “the” and substitute the word “a” and to delete the words “county council” in every place where they occur and substitute the words “local authority”.
The object of the amendment is that I want to remove all power from the local approved councils. It seems to me that the parish councils, during the short period in which they have been operating, have done a certain amount of very excellent work. I think those of us who attended the meeting held recently in the Mansion House— similar meetings have been held throughout the country—were much struck by the enthusiasm and keenness of the representatives of those parish councils who came there to try and solve some of the problems that they are up against. It seems to me it is a great pity that the parish councils should not be left alone to continue their good work. Apart altogether from the wisdom or otherwise of giving them the powers contained in the Bill, it is possible that the effect of giving such powers to parish councils may have the effect of bringing their work to an end. I think they would be far  more effective bodies if left to carry on without any statutory authority or rights of any sort.
Mr. Ruttledge: I think a sufficient safeguard, in regard to parish councils, is provided in the Deputy’s next amendment in which it is proposed to take power to revoke the delegation. I am prepared to meet the Deputy on that. I do not want to have the parish councils statutory bodies. What they may do is only indicated in a very general way.
Any expenses incurred by a county council under this Part of this Act in relation to an approved local council (not being expenses incurred in the performance by or through such approved local council of any power or duty delegated to them under this Part of this Act) shall be raised and defrayed in the same manner in  which the expenses of such county council acting as rural sanitary authority are raised and defrayed.
(1) Save with the consent of the Minister, no allowance the amount of which exceeds the amount of an allowance calculated according to the scale provided by the Superannuation Acts, 1834 to 1936, and the rules thereunder shall be granted under Section 8 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1919, to an officer to whom, by virtue of Section 43 of the Act of 1925, Part IV of the Act of 1925 does not wholly apply.
Mr. Ruttledge: With regard to amendment No. 87, in the name of Deputy O'Higgins which, I think, proposed to deal with the question of superannuation, I just want to say that a Bill has been under consideration in the Department for a considerable time. In my opinion it would be more appropriate to have the matter referred to in the amendment dealt with under it than in this Bill. SECTION 75.
In lieu of the provisions (repealed by this Act) of sub-section (7) of Section 9 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, as amended by Section 77 of the Act of 1925, the following provisions shall apply in relation to every mental hospital to which the said Section 9 applies and of which the district comprises two or more counties or a county borough and one or more counties, and the said Section 9 shall be construed and have effect accordingly, that is to say:—
(a) the powers, functions, and duties in relation to the hospital of the local authorities concerned shall be exercised and performed by such local authorities through a joint committee of such local authorities;
(b) the expenses of the management and maintenance of the hospital during every half year ending on the 31st day of March or the 30th day of September shall be defrayed by such local authorities severally in proportion to the average daily number of patients from their respective functional areas maintained in the hospital during such half year;
(c) each such local authority shall elect in each year new members for such joint committee, in the case of a county council, at the annual meeting or, in the case of the corporation of a county borrough, at the quarterly meeting next after a triennial election or between the 23rd day of June and the 1st day of July in a year in which there is not a triennial election;
(d) the number of members to be elected by each such local authority shall, as nearly as possible, be proportionate to the contribution payable by such local authority to the expenses of the management and maintenance of the hospital during the local financial year ending on the 31st day of March next previous to the election and such number shall, in case of dispute, be determined by the Minister whose decision shall be final;
In page 33, to delete in line 20 the word “elect” and substitute the word “make”, to insert in line 20 before the word “new” the word “a”, to insert in line 21 before the word “members” the words “appointment of”, to delete in line 28 the word “elected” and substitute the word “appointed”, to delete in line 33 the word “election” and substitute the word “appointment”, and to delete in line 42 the word “elected” and substitute the word “appointed”.
Mr. Benson: The purpose of the amendment is to avoid having an election for the subsidiary bodies every year: that they should have one election after their own election, and that it should stand for the life of the council.
(3) Every member of the council of  a county or of a committee of such council to which this section applies and every member of a joint committee to which this section applies who was appointed by such council shall, immediately after becoming such member, communicate in writing to such council the address at which he ordinarily resides and such address shall be regarded as the official residence of such member for the purposes of this section.
Mr. Ruttledge: I move amendment No. 90:—
In page 33, to delete sub-section (1) and substitute four new sub-sections as follows:—
“(1) Each of the following local authorities shall be a local authority to which this section applies, that is to say:—
(a) a council of a county,
(b) a joint committee of management of a district mental hospital,
(c) a local authority in respect of which an order under sub-section (2) of this section is for the time being in force.
(2) The Minister may by order apply this section to any local authority and may at any time, either on the application of such local authority or without any application, revoke such order.
(3) Subject to the provisions of this section, every local authority to which this section applies shall defray the expenses of locomotion incurred by each of their members in travelling to and from meetings of such local authority.
(4) No person shall be paid under this “section travelling expenses in respect of a meeting held at a place less than five miles by any route from his official residence.”
This amendment is in substitution for sub-section (1) of Section 76, dealing with the travelling expenses of members of councils and committees.
Mr. Hickey: Is not sub-section (2) of Section 76 open to some abuse? To my  knowledge it very often happens that there are two meetings——
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy can raise that on the section. Amendment No. 90 is now under consideration.
Amendment agreed to.
The following amendments were agreed to:—
91. In sub-section (3), to delete all from the word “the” in line 59, page 33, to the word “council” in line 1, page 34, and substitute the words “a local authority to which this section applies” and in page 34, to delete in line 2 the word “council” and substitute the words “local authority”. (Minister for Local Government and Public Health).
92. In page 34, to delete sub-sections (4) and (5).—(Minister for Local Government and Public Health).
Mr. Hickey: On the section, sub-section (2) states that the travelling expenses in respect of any particular meeting shall not exceed the amount which would reasonably have been incurred in travelling from and to a member’s residence to the place of meeting. A person might attend two meetings in one day and claim two sets of expenses. I am raising this question for specific reasons.
Mr. Ruttledge: Thanks. I shall have the matter looked into. That might be possible.
Mr. Benson: Does the Minister consider that nobody in a county borough lives so far from the place of meeting to entitle him to travelling expenses? Is it not possible that a member of a county borough council may not live in the area and may be a considerable distance removed from the place of meeting? He is debarred from receiving travelling expenses while a member of a county council receives travelling expenses.
Mr. Ruttledge: If it is five miles from his official residence to the meeting?
Mr. Benson: Even if it is five miles, a member of a county borough council is not entitled to expenses.
Mr. Ruttledge: That is so.
Mr. Hickey: He is expected to live within the borough boundary.
Section, as amended, agreed to.
(3) The Minister may be order alter the division of a county into district electoral divisions in such manner as he thinks fit.
General Mulcahy: I move amendment No. 93 on behalf of Deputy Brennan:—
To add at the end of the section the words “having regard to area and population”.
Mr. Benson: This amendment is similar to one which we have already discussed.
Mr. Ruttledge: Yes. What Deputy Brennan has in mind is that the area should be fixed according to population. I had an example for Deputy Brennan from his own constituency to show that the amendment could not be accepted. In Ballinagare electoral division there is a population of 1,200, and the acreage of the area is 12,401. In Baslick, the population is 409, and the area 4,000 acres. You have to take the convenience of the electors into consideration.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section agreed to.
Whenever land acquired by a local authority is subject in conjunction with other land to an annuity or other payment to the Irish Land Commission, the Irish Land Commission may apportion such annuity or other payment in such manner as they consider proper ....
Mr. Ruttledge: I move amendment No. 94:—
In page 34, to delete in line 33 the words “the Irish Land Commission” and substitute the words “or the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, the said commission or the said commissioners (as the case may be)”.
This amendment provides for apportionment of Board of Works annuities in the same manner as the section provides for apportionment of Land Commission annuities.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 78, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 79 to 81 agreed to.
(1) An inspector holding a local inquiry pursuant to a direction of the Minister under this or any other Act or an auditor auditing the accounts of a local authority under this Act may take evidence on oath and for that purpose may administer oaths.
(2) Subject to the provisions of the next following sub-section of this section, an inspector holding a local inquiry pursuant to a direction of the Minister under this or any other Act or an auditor auditing the accounts of a local authority under this Act may, by giving notice in that behalf in writing to any person, require such person to attend at such time and place as is specified in such notice to give evidence in relation to any matter in question at such inquiry or audit (as the case may be) or to produce any documents in his possession, custody, or control which relate to any such matter.
Mr. Ruttledge: I move amendment No. 95, which is consequential on amendment No. 72, and is as follows:—
In sub-section (1), page 35, to delete in line 37 the word “an” and substitute the words “a local government” and to delete in line 38 the words “under this Act”.
Amendment agreed to.
The following amendments were agreed to:—
96. In sub-section (2), page 35, to delete in line 42 the word “an” and substitute the words “a local government” and to delete in line 43 the words “under this Act”.— (Minister for Local Government and Public Health.)
97. In sub-section (2), page 35, to insert in line 47 before the word “documents” the words “books, deeds, contracts, accounts, vouchers, maps, plans, or other”.—(Minister for Local Government and Public Health.)
Section 82, as amended, agreed to.
Section 83 agreed to.
Mr. Ruttledge: I move amendment No. 98:—
Before Section 84 to insert a new section as follows:—
84.—(1) In this section—
the expression “urban authority” means any of the following local authorities, that is to say, a corporation of a county or other borough, a council of an urban district, and the commissioners of a town;
the expression “approved association” means an association of urban authorities approved of by the Minister and the objects of which include consultation as to the common interests of urban authorities and discussion of matters relating to local government;
the expression “the approved amount” means—
(a) where the urban authority in respect of which the expression is used is a corporation of a county borough—twenty pounds,
(b) where such urban authority is a corporation of a borough which is not a county borough or is a council of an urban district—ten pounds, and
(c) where such urban authority is the commissioners of a town—five pounds.
(2) Subject to the provisions of the next following sub-section of this section, an urban authority may contribute to the funds of any approved association.
 (3) The total amount standing for the time being contributed under this section by an urban authority shall not exceed the approved amount in respect of such urban authority.
This is a new section to enable municipal authorities to contribute to their association in the same way as county councils now contribute to the General Council of County Councils.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 84 agreed to.
First Schedule agreed to.
Mr. Ruttledge: I move amendment No. 99:—
Before the second Schedule to insert a new Schedule as follows:—
Enactments Applied to Election of Members of Local Authorities.
|Session and Chapter or Number and Year||Short Title||Extent of Application|
|45 & 46 Vic., c. 50.||Municipal Corpora- tions Act, 1882.||So much of the Act as relates to election petitions.|
|47 & 48 Vic., c. 70||Municipal Elec- tions (Corrupt and Illegal Practices) Act, 1884.||So much of the Act as relates to election petitions.|
|No. 12 of 1923||Electoral Act, 1923.||Sections 22, 26 to 39, 60, 62 and 63, Parts I and II of the Fifth Schedule.|
|No. 38 of 1923||Prevention of Elec- toral Abuses Act, 1923.||Parts I and II, Part III except sections 23 and 24, Parts IV and VII, and Part VIII (except section 50).|
Amendment agreed to.
The following amendments were agreed to:—
101. In the Second Schedule, in page 39, to delete in the third  column opposite the mention in the second column of the Local Government (Application of Enactments) Order, 1898, the word “subarticle” where that word occurs firstly and substitute the words “subarticles (3) and”.—(Minister for Local Government and Public Health).
102. In the Second Schedule, in page 39, to insert before the entry of the Local Government Act, 1925, a new repeal as follows:—
|No. 9 of 1923||Local Government (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1923.||The whole Act.|
—(Minister for Local Government and Public Health).
103. In the Second Schedule, in page 39, to delete in the third column opposite the mention in the second column of the Local Government Act, 1925, the word and figures “Section 46”.—(Minister for Local Government and Public Health).
Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported with amendments.
Mr. Hickey: Would the Minister say whether or not there is likely to be an election for county councils and local bodies this summer?
Mr. Ruttledge: It is not the present intention to have elections this year. A Bill to postpone elections will be introduced in due course.
Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, 25th June.
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