Smith, PatrickFriday, 20 October 1944 |
Dáil Éireann Debate
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I move amendment No. 23:— In sub-section (1), to insert the word “navigation-rights” in page 7, before the words “and other”, lines 46 and 50, and in page 8, line 2, before the words “or other”. This ...
I move amendment No. 24:— In sub-section (1), to delete in lines 50 and 51, page 7, the words “after the date of the said order confirming the scheme and” and to delete in lines 8 and 9, page 8, the w...
If Deputy Hughes is not anxious to have an authority set up here to deal with drainage, he may not wish to say so in so many words. He may think it more advisable to get around his difficulty by prop...
I take it that it is not contended that during the course of a scheme, costing £10,000, £20,000, £30,000, £40,000, £50,000, £100,000 or £200,000, the authority charged with the carrying out of draina...
I might not give the individual even as much protection as he is being given here.
They can do no such thing.
Until the matter of what compensation he should get has been determined.
That is a matter for the arbitrator.
I imagine that those who are criticising this provision must not have read it. When a scheme is prepared, naturally those who prepare it will see, in the main, what will have to be acquired before th...
It is scarcely likely. We must give them credit for being able to see the big matters. This provision to which Deputy Hughes takes exception is intended to ensure that, in the middle of the carrying...
I did not.
It is provided for.
By registered post.
I cannot help him. It will be sent to his known address here.
That is what I am doing here.
Previous planning?
They could not.
I have nothing further to say on this. An exactly similar provision to this is contained in the Act of 1925, and it is not in any way unreasonable. I cannot conceive of anybody wanting to see the au...
I am not.
So far as I know, there has not been any undue case of hardship in the past. In the matter of ascertaining compensation, it would not be right to specify any time because it might not be possible to ...
I am prepared to let him wait until such time as it is possible to have determined what amount he should get. If it is a month, or if it is a year, it has to be so.
I will come to that later on.
Read Section 11 of the 1925 Act.
That is so. Under the 1925 Act the scheme in all cases was referred to the local people, but in no case was there a unanimous vote in its favour. Sometimes the voting against was as high as 48 per c...
It is not any wonder that I should complain because of all the fuss that is being created over this section when it is the common practice to include a section of this type in all such legislation.
Look at the difficulty there would be in interpreting the word “reasonable”.
Would it not be a more sensible thing to leave the section as it is?
I was not responsible for that Bill.
I do not like that word; I think it would be too hard to interpret.
I move amendment No. 29:— To delete sub-section (2). Those words will be inserted later in a suitable place, in Section 14, I think. Amendment put and agreed to.
But at this time the amendment would have been effected. What then would be the purpose of having a High Court decision as to whether or not the amendment was reasonable? We have here provided for ma...
He will be compensated, anyway.
Of course it arises. What is the use in saying it does not arise? In the case of any owner of property, any person whose rights have been interfered with, provision is made by which he can have compe...
That is not so.
No. We are discussing Section 9. The sub-section to which exception is being taken is really designed for the purpose of covering trivial things which would not have been foreseen by those who prepa...
It could not possibly be.
Read Section 12. “Whenever in the course of the carrying out of a drainage scheme it becomes necessary, in the opinion of the Commissioners, to acquire compulsorily or interfere substantially...” Whe...
Why should we? What interest would the authority have to serve by wanting to side-track Section 12? Let this House be reasonable.
You may call this authority bureaucracy or delegation of democracy or anything Deputy Hughes wants to call it, but, after all, if it has a job of work to do and finds itself armed with the necessary a...
Again, if we are to be reasonable, other people can be reasonable, too, and I have no doubt that reasonable people, instead of trying to squeeze themselves in through this sub-section (g), will natur...
We have been reasonable, inasmuch as we have provided here the way in which this problem is to be treated.
What advantage would there be in doing that? There would be no advantage in the world to them, so there is no temptation whatever to do any of the things to which expression has been given.
There were a number of things taken out, because the 1925 Act was unworkable.
We have to remember the delay that could arise if we wanted to interfere in some slight fashion with a man's property and if he proceeded to court to secure an injunction restraining us from doing th...
We all know there are such people. We all know that, where a State authority is involved, they have always been fair game for attacks of this kind. I do not understand those who pretend to have this...
How do you expect us to carry out drainage unless we have that power?
I am not prepared to accede to the request. The Act of 1925 did not contain any section similar to Section 12. If the authority of that time found itself in a position in which it would have to amen...
There is no section similar to Section 12 in the Act of 1925. We have here a section which enables us to make any substantial amendment which may be necessary. This provision in Section 19, to which ...
That is a different thing from a drainage scheme.
It was to a district justice I was referring at that time.
I move amendment No. 30:— In sub-section (1), line 42, to delete the figures “1939” and substitute the figures “1944”. Amendment agreed to. Question proposed: “That Section 10, as amended, stand part ...
We have had a good deal of discussion with the Department concerned on this matter, and I think I can give Deputy Roddy the assurance that he has asked for. I suppose the Deputy is right in saying th...
Not between two State Departments. I think the Deputy can take it that ample protection is afforded.
That is not so.
The Deputy's point has already been recognised, and protracted discussions have taken place between the two Departments concerned.
The Fisheries Branch of the Department of Agriculture and ourselves have discussed this very fully. Every effort will be made to protect the fisheries. Somebody must be in a position to give the ord...
It is the Minister for Agriculture who is the deciding authority.
The Minister for Agriculture is the deciding authority, subject to certain reservations.
I am advised that that is not so.
The Minister for Agriculture is the person responsible for the protection of the fisheries. We are responsible for the preparation of the drainage scheme. Naturally, it will be our obligation to sat...
The sub-section says:— “provided that the said Minister shall, in consultation with the Commissioners, satisfy himself.” That is to say, he will have to be satisfied.
The section is all right.
They are not.
The section reads:— (1) It shall not be obligatory on the Commissioners, when constructing drainage works in pursuance of a drainage scheme, to comply with the Fisheries Acts, 1842 to 1939. (2) Notw...
He has the power there all right.
Yes.
I am advised that this section gives to the Minister for Agriculture, who is responsible for the protection of fisheries, all the power towards that end that he requires.
Yes.
Would not that be the very first thing that the Minister for Local Government would do?
Could the Deputy imagine a bridge or road being interfered with in County Carlow by those charged with the execution of drainage schemes, and these alterations being approved by the Department of Loca...
One does not set out in a Bill of this kind to direct and provide that every Department will do every conceivable kind of thing that in the normal every-day routine is done. There is no necessity for ...
We are not denying them that right.
The Minister for Local Government has to be consulted.
That, of course, is an unreasonable argument.
Bridges have been erected in the past by the Board of Works. It is quite a usual thing for agreement to be arrived at as to the amount of advantage that would accrue to the local authority because of...
The county surveyor could not act without authority from his local authority. He has no authority.
You could put anything in a Bill, but there is no reason for it.
The local authority will have to be consulted. How are they going to determine, without the assistance of the staff of the county council, the portion of the cost that the Minister should approve as ...
He does, but how could he do that without consulting the local authority?
I know, but the staff cannot act without authority from their employers. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I move amendment No. 34:— In sub-section (1), page 9, to insert the words “road or” before the word “bridge” wherever that word occurs in lines 27, 29, 32, 48 and 51. This is merely to bring the sub-s...
The county council.
Under this section?
It would be only bridges that afterwards would be the responsibility of the local authority.
Are we not giving all that is wanted in sub-section (1) (d)? Would not the Minister for Local Government have a right to say who would be responsible? That would be in favour of the line the Deputy i...
If we have to interfere with a bridge, in the normal way maintenance would be the responsibility of the local authority. It is a question of how a bridge would be reconstructed and who would be respo...
That is asking too much seeing that there are hundreds of bridges in different counties which county surveyors would reconstruct if they had the money. It is because the funds are limited that they a...
We give them all they want as a windfall and I think that is enough.
Would the Deputy leave it to the Minister for Finance?
I would be prepared to do that.
Surely the suggestion that the Minister for Local Government is not, from the point of view of the local authorities, an excellent choice as arbitrator between the central authority and the local auth...
The Minister for Local Government is responsible for roads and all such matters.
He will not.
I am prepared to accept an amendment that the Minister for Finance be allowed to adjudicate.
In every case the Minister for Local Government will have regard to the rates and he naturally will be influenced in favour of the ratepayers, in spite of the feeling Deputy Cogan has about it. Questi...
I move amendment No. 35:— In page 10, line 6, to insert the word “navigation-right” before the words “or other”. This amendment is consequential. Amendment put and agreed to.
We do not propose to do anything here that we have not already done.
We cannot eliminate these two sub-sections and make any progress. Amendment put and declared negatived.
This whole principle has already been decided upon. It is not very likely that this will arise too often, and where it is necessary to amend a scheme, I find it hard to believe that the amendment wil...
In every place in which it appears we are meeting you on that. You have an amendment down at a later stage.
After all, the time will be short. It will be very exceptional.
There is a number of other things to be done. They have to submit the scheme to the Minister. It will take a fairly long time to get the amended scheme approved. You must remember that the work will...
Surely they will be able to do it in 14 days,
Ah, yes, they could.
I do not see anything to prevent them doing it within 14 days. It is not the same as where an elaborate scheme would have to be examined. It would be nothing more than a simple amendment of the scheme...
It would refer to a particular portion of the scheme and it would not occasion any great trouble to a county surveyor if he wanted to look at a spot on the river. It would not mean a survey of the wh...
Section 12 is put into the Bill because it is possible for men to overlook certain things. The section is inserted in order to meet the extreme case, and the 14 days are mentioned in order to meet th...
Very well.
We will look into the point. Question put and agreed to. SECTION 13.
I will consider the point between now and the Report Stage. I hate to make statutory provision for a thing like this. Consider the position if you stipulate local papers. Suppose you overlook the in...
What is a local paper?
What is a local paper?
How many local papers might circulate there? Look at the difficulty you are creating. An editor who might have no substantial circulation in that particular district at all might contend that, beca...
I have no objection to doing that at all, but Deputy Norton is not so foolish as not to know that in addition to the main weekly paper circulating in a particular county there might be half a dozen ot...
We will try to get over it in some way.
I do not want to be taken as saying that we will only publish it in a particular paper because of the circulation that paper has, but Deputies will realise that a paper which might sell only a dozen ...
Of course I will. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment No. 39 not moved.
A certificate of completion must issue.
Partial or otherwise. The people who issue that certificate of completion must be the people who have carried out the scheme. While consultation is provided for and must take place where matters are...
Who is paying for it in that case?
The Minister for Finance is putting up the money to pay for this.
It is admitted that there must be finality and that the scheme must be completed. A certificate of completion must be issued in order to determine the point at which it is handed over for maintenance...
I am telling the Deputy that the Minister for Finance is paying for it. The drainage authority is responsible for the preparation and execution of the work, and the drainage authority alone can say t...
Naturally.
There is no analogy where the Deputy attempts to make one. In this case, the Minister for Finance is paying for the work.
Well, the taxpayers are paying. I am not interpreting it in the narrow sense.
The authority to execute the work is being set up by this House under these proposals.
There is.
The principle of consultation is already accepted.
So they have.
Everybody has the right to make objections when notice is given of the intention to issue the certificate.
It says that the Minister shall consider every objection sent to him.
That can be done under sub-section (4) (b).
The local authority will.
There is no necessity for this amendment. Sub-section (4) (b) provides that any person—which phrase includes a local authority—may, within a month after publication of notice, send to the Minister an...
That the Minister for Local Government should have the right to impede as long as he desired the issue of the certificate of completion?
As I say, if the local authority objects there would be consultation but otherwise there would be no necessity for it to my mind. If the Deputy presses the amendment, I shall consider the matter betw...
I certainly shall not agree to the insertion of any amendment which would provide for the receipt of the assent of the Minister for Local Government before a certificate of completion can issue. What ...
I am afraid Deputy Bennett has a Mulcair complex. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Section 13 agreed to. SECTION 14.
I move amendment No. 41:— In sub-section (1), page 11, line 59, to insert the word “navigationrights” before the words “and other”. Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 42:— In sub-section (1), page 11, line 60, after the word “acquired” to add the words “save that it shall not be obligatory on the Commissioners— (a) to acquire compulsorily any ...
I move amendment No. 43:— In sub-section (2), page 12, line 2, to insert the word “navigation-rights” before the words “and other”. Amendment agreed to.
I never heard of a right of appeal once arbitration was accepted as the basis upon which the matter is to be determined. I thought that the acceptance of the principle of arbitration made the decisio...
Neither has the other party any choice.
There are two parties here, and the arbitrator is appointed by the Reference Committee to decide between them. If injustice is done— and that is possible, no matter to what court you appeal—an arbitr...
Well, you must compel him in certain circumstances.
Yes, but the procedure is laid down under Section 6 of the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act.
If we had insisted on the right of the Minister to select the arbitrator I could have some sympathy with the case the Deputy is making now, but we have conceded the point that the reference committee ...
Well, of course, you will always have that. You will always have differences of opinion.
You would have that even in the case of two judges of the High Court. It is the very same thing.
No, but what I am saying is this: that as to the value that is to be placed upon property, or the amount of compensation to be assessed for injury or damage to property, any two men may have a differe...
Surely, we have to get an arbitrator?
The authority responsible.
The drainage authority.
We shall give a reason for that when we come to it.
The Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act laid down the whole machinery for settling questions of compensation.
Then, where is the use in our trying here to discuss this?
I cannot accept the amendment. As regards the case quoted by Deputy Cosgrave, one, of course, can quite understand the feelings of people when they are disturbed from their homes and farms.
Normally, at any rate, if a man is disturbed from his holding he will not be satisfied with the compensation he gets. He would like to have the right of appeal not only to a second court but, perhaps...
It is hardly likely. Amendment put and declared negatived.
I move amendment No. 46:— In sub-section (3), page 12, line 16, to insert the word “navigation-right” before the words “or other”. Amendment agreed to. Amendments Nos. 47 and 48 not moved.
I do not think there is anything in that point. Section 3 of the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act 1919 lays down the procedure before official arbitrators. It is as follows:— “......
The arbitrator will.
It is provided that where the claim includes a claim for compensation in respect of minerals, or disturbance of business, as well as in respect of land, one additional expert witness on either side on...
With or without his consent.
Yes. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Question proposed: “That Section 14, as amended, stand part of the Bill.”
I will look into the matter. Question put and agreed to. SECTION 15.
I move amendment No. 50:— In sub-section (1), page 12, line 41, to insert the word “navigationright” before the words “or other”. Amendment agreed to. Amendments Nos. 51 and 52 not moved.
I move amendment No. 53:— In sub-section (2), to add at the end of the sub-section, line 52, the words “and conclusive”. Amendment agreed to. Section 15, as amended, agreed to. SECTION 16. Amendment N...
We allow ten years for fisheries.
One year.
It is necessary to look at Sections 14, 15 and 16 together. Section 14 deals with the acquisition of and compensation for lands, rights etc. scheduled in a scheme. Section 15 deals with compensation ...
I do not profess to know anything about fisheries, but the experts say that it will take a long period before any estimate could be formed as to the amount of damage or otherwise done to fisheries by ...
If I thought the period was too short, I would be prepared to extend it.
We can consider it, but I do not think it is too short.
I should not like to say that I will meet the Deputy's amendment to that extent, or indeed to any extent, but I am prepared to have further consultations to see whether or not it is necessary to exten...
Why should we not?
I will look into the point. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendments Nos. 56 and 57 not moved. Section 16 agreed to.
It is, of course, the normal practice to investigate and probe in every way to overcome the type of difficulty that arises where mills and such industries are situated along a river, but surely it wou...
Then we will not get sanction for the scheme.
We have to consult the Department of Industry and Commerce. If we were to interfere with any industry and if we found that we were unable to provide alternative power and that there was no means of ca...
Does the Deputy mean water rights?
There are all kinds of provisions with regard to water rights in every part of the country.
The only thing we are doing here is taking to ourselves the right to prepare a drainage scheme. In the course of the preparation of that scheme we will come across industries, mills and such concerns....
There is.
I would not go so far as to say we would not proceed with the scheme. Naturally, if we find that we are going to interfere with an industry, we will have to consult the Department of Industry and Com...
It is a matter of asking yourself which of the two is the more important. It is the same as the determination of a matter in connection with fisheries. Suppose there is a river in which important fi...
One could be more important than the other. It is a matter of deciding in connection with a matter of this kind which is the more important.
You are giving no solution.
Then there would be compensation.
I could not accept the amendment. I will not commit the drainage authority to a provision of this kind. It is not reasonable to ask me to do so. It is safe to assume that, just as in the past, we w...
How will you provide it if it is not available?
If you want to say that there is no limit to the distance you will have to provide him with electric power——
Why should we kill the fish? We would not kill them if we could avoid it. Why do we provide for a period of ten years within which to determine the extent to which we have been damaging the fisherie...
It will ease our problem if we are able to leave them with the power they have, or, if we are free to provide alternative power, that would be a very simple way out for us and we would be glad to take...
Some 50 schemes have been carried out under the 1925 Act.
Very considerable experience.
In the main we have been able to get agreement by consultation with the owners of those concerns. We have gone out of our way in many cases to meet them and to keep the industries going.
I am not aware there has been any case in which we were not able to get over the difficulties some way. Of course, every case is different. The circumstances surrounding each case are different. Yo...
We have done that in the past and we will do it in the future.
Sure. There is no question of trying to squeeze anybody out.
What can you do?
I admit that.
Everyone will be anxious to preserve the mill, if it can be done.
These mill owners have been very well treated in the past and the House may rest assured that they will be very well treated in the future.
I am thinking of them, also. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
We do not want to provide compensation where a mill has been derelict during the ten years preceding a certain date.
For goodness sake, do not give them more than they are entitled to.
They will be favourable years in this case, will they not?
The years we will be covering will be favourable years, years in which water power would have been used for that purpose.
I think we mention the date from which the ten years will count.
It was the deliberate intention not to let people away with something that they were not entitled to get. Section 17 agreed to. SECTION 18.
I move amendment No. 62:— In sub-section (2), page 13, line 45, to delete the words “of an aggregate annual value”. This is purely a drafting amendment. Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 63:— In sub-section (4), page 14, line 8, to insert the words “agent or servant” before the words “of the commissioners”. This is also a drafting amendment. Amendment agreed to.
No.
This relates to a division between counties.
You will have to apportion the amount for maintenance purposes.
We will apportion the amount of the improvement.
What would they have to object to?
It is only a matter of adjustment as between the counties.
The amount of the improvement which will accrue from the carrying out of a scheme is assessed, and if there was a mistake made as to the apportionment of that amount as between three counties it is pu...
No.
Yes, but what difference would that make?
If you had a scheme prepared for a whole catchment area, and you carried out portion of it, and that portion was in two or three counties, you would have to apportion the improvement as between each o...
We have decided this amendment.
This has been discussed and decided.
I have said all I want to say on this matter of the wisdom of an appeal board, and I do not propose to make any further statement about it. The fault I have to find with the Drainage Commission in thi...
We will discuss it when we come to it.
None.
There is a final court in every matter.
Because it is impossible.
So it is.
And the individuals.
We are dealing with the question of an appeal board.
I do not want to allow Deputy Allen to get away with the idea that even when the scheme that is outlined in the report of the Drainage Commission is carried out, at an estimated cost, as they put it, ...
If the Ceann Comhairle interrupts me as well as other Deputies——
I am saying that I do not want Deputy Allen to get away with the idea that local authorities are going to be saddled with some enormous burden because the Drainage Commission in their report have set ...
The Deputy may not be discussing that but Deputy Allen has made the point that this is what the county councils were being walked into and he tried to make the case that the county councils should hav...
Having regard to the responsibility the State is assuming in bearing the cost of the constructional work, I do not think that local authorities have anything to be anxious about in undertaking to car...
Well, I do not know what the Deputy is dealing with.
Whatever the Deputy was dealing with, I say that once you set up this court of appeal — and there are other amendments and other proposals further on — it would mean giving to each individual who want...
It might be lower.
It may be that some people are very concerned about having nice efficient machinery and all sorts of appeal boards, but I take it that the House wants, when work starts, to get it done. The House wil...
That is only when half the work is done.
To maintain them up to the present standard.
We are not.
We are not.
I object to any Deputy saying that there is a provision in this Bill which it does not contain. We are not providing in this measure that when drainage districts are handed over to the local authori...
When I first came to read the report of the Drainage Commission, I was, like everybody else, more or less enamoured of the idea.
Just think of the amount of thought that has been given to this whole question by those responsible for framing these proposals as compared with the time the Drainage Commission had to devote to it.
There is no comparison. I am not saying this by way of criticism of the men and women who formed that Commission, but they had not the same amount of time at their disposal to consider the wisdom and ...
There are members of local authorities in this House who know that even though there is some little slight injustice done as a result of a decision of the drainage authority as between the local autho...
There could be a slight error of judgement on the part of the appeal board you are suggesting.
The suggestion is to provide an appeal board consisting of the following: a High Court Judge, a member nominated by the commissioners, and a member nominated by the General Council of County Councils....
How do you know whether they will or not?
If they put an engineer from the Office of Public Works on the board would you not think that his view, naturally, would be the view of the technical advisers to the drainage authority and, therefore...
Whom would they nominate?
Deputy Coogan knows that it is all right to be experienced. We all have some experience but what use would it be to us in determining highly technical questions?
Very little.
Pardon me. I have not finished my case. Does the Deputy want to ask me a question?
Go ahead now.
I have no objection to the amendment. We will see if we can cover the point.
I move amendment No. 66:— In sub-section (1), page 15, line 11, to insert the word “navigationrights” before the words “and other”. This is a drafting amendment. Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 67:— In sub-section (2), page 15, line 15, to insert the word “navigation-rights” before the words “and other”. This is a similar type of amendment. Amendment agreed to. Section 2...
We are hoping to be able to have the necessary inspections made of all these areas, as we must in order to be able to certify as to their condition, inside a year, but I would not attempt to fix any ...
The Deputy may take it that we shall try to put ourselves in a position to fix the appointed day within six months, but I am not going to commit myself to the extent of tying my hands.
Yes, and that is our difficulty. We shall have to inspect every district, whether in charge of trustees or boards, which will be transferred to the local authority on a day to be fixed.
Yes.
We ought to be able to do it in about a year.
Yes.
It might. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I move amendment No. 73: — In sub-section (2), page 15, line 55, to delete the words “the responsibility for” and on page 16 to delete all from the word “become” in line 1 to the word “councils” in li...
I gave Deputy Norton an undertaking to recommit on Report Stage for the purpose of dealing with amendments which he did not move. I wonder if the House would agree to do the same for all the amendmen...
The point is that I would get my Committee Stage. If we continue to deal with the amendments on Committee Stage when we return, I shall have to recommit for Deputy Norton in any case.
It can be discussed in the same way as on Committee Stage. The Deputy will have the same opportunities.
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