Prelude
Order of Business.
An Bille Airí agus Rúnaithe (Leasú), 1956—An Dara Céim.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Income from External Investments.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - International Payments Statement.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Index Number of Wage Rates.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Conacre Takings.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Retail Price of Meat.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Increase in Newspaper Prices.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Distribution and Supply of Groceries.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Bureau of Standards.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Hardiman Trust.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Prison Officials' Shirts and Uniforms.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Portlaoighise Prison.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Dublin Milk Supplies.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Telephone Directory.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Pensions of Government Servants.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Totalisator Employment.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Borrowings from Local Loans Fund.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Health Act Services.
An Bille Airí agus Rúnaithe (Leasú), 1956—An Dara Céim (D'atógaint).
Estimates for Public Services, 1956-57.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Agriculture (Resumed).
[683] Do chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m.
The Taoiseach: Business, as set out on the Order Paper, will be taken as follows: Nos. 1, 7 and 8; Votes 27-10 inclusive. Questions will be taken at 3 p.m.
Mr. Lemass: Will the Taoiseach state on what days the Dáil is meeting next week?
The Taoiseach: I understand it has been agreed to sit on Wednesday, Thursday and on Friday, from 10.30 a.m. to 2 p.m.
An Ceann Comhairle: Is the Minister for Health accepting the amendments from the Seanad in regard to the Opticians Bill?
Minister for Health (Mr. O'Higgins): Yes.
Mr. Lemass: Before the usual practice of having the Minister announce the Government's intentions regarding the amendments, would he fix a date for the discussion?
An Ceann Comhairle: Will the Minister fix a date for the discussion of the amendments?
Mr. O'Higgins: Next Wednesday.
An tAire Oideachais (Risteárd Ua Maolchatha): Tairgim go leitear an Bille an Tarna hUair.
Is eol don Dáil gur fhoilsigh an Rialtas, nuair a bhíodar ag dul i gceann oifige, ráiteas inar leagadh amach príomh-chuspóirí áirithe a bhí [684] rompu. Ba chuid den chéad chuspóir díobh san oidhreacht chultúrtha na hÉireann a chaomhnadh, agus, imeasc na gcuspóirí eile, dúradh go mbunófaí Aireacht i gcóir na Gaeltachta. Is chun comhlíonta na gcuspóirí an bille seo.
Ní gá dhom dul siar ar na hiarrachtaí a rinneadh le breis agus deich mbliana fichead anuas ar mhaithe leis an nGaeltacht. Is leor a rá nar éirigh leis na hiarrachtaí sin mar ba mhaith linn. Tá an Ghaeltacht ag meath i gcónaí. Deirtear linn go bhfuil líon na gcainteoirí Gaeilge sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht ag dul i laghad do réir míle duine sa mbliain.
Muna gcuirtear stop leis sin ní bheidh aon Ghaeltacht ann agus caillfidh an Náisiún mór-chuid den oidhreacht is luachmhaire atá aici. Ni foláir, dá bhrí sin, tréan-iarracht ceart a dhéanamh feasta chun an Ghaeltacht do shábháil. Tá rún ag an Rialtas é sin a dhéanamh agus tá dóchas acu go n-éireoidh leo. Chuige sin, tá Roinn na Gaeltachta á bunú agus ceapfar Aire chun dul i mbun na gcúramaí atá leagtha amach san mbille seo, pé dualgaisí eile a cuirfear ar an Roinn nua i ndiaidh a cheile nuair a bheidh sí bunaithe.
Cuirfear cúram agus freagarthacht fé leith ar Aire Stáit fé leith i leith na ceiste. Beidh an tAire, agus an Rialtas, freagarthach don Dáil i gcaoi go bhféadfar ceist seo na Gaeltachta agus beartas a slánaithe a phlé agus a chíoradh anseo sa Tigh seo aon uair is gá. Beidh Aire fé leith ann a mbeidh sé de bhuntáiste aige é bheith ar a chumas a chúramaí a phlé díreach lena chomh-Airí agus deimhin a dhéanamh dhe go mbeidh a gcomhoibriú sin le fail aige sa tslí is éifeachtaí a fhoghnóidh don Ghaeltacht.
Tar éis machnamh maith a dhéanamh is léir don Rialtas nach féidir gléas oibre níos fearr a cheapadh chun na hoibre práinne seo.
Tabharfaidh bunú na Roinne nua misneach agus dóchas do mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus léireóidh sé dhóibh go ndéanfaidh an Rialtas gach dícheall chun a gcóir mhaireachtála d'fheabhsú agus a leas a chur chun cinn. Tuigfidh muintir na hÉireann freisin cé an tábhacht atá in aithbheochaint na [685] Gaeilge i gcoitinne dar leis an Oireachtas agus an Rialtas.
Nuair a bhí an Bille seo á ullmhú ba é an chéad dheacracht a bhí le réiteach ná míniú d'fháil ar cad is Gaeltacht ann. Is eol don Dáil gur mó míniú, reachtúil agus eile, atá ar an bhfocal “Gaeltacht”ón uair a ghlac an Rialtas leis an gcéad mhíniú ar mholadh Choimisiún na Gaeltachta san mbliain 1926, anuas go dtí an lá inniu.
Tá an scéal chomh measctha, míshásúil sin gur mheasamar gurbh fhearr a fhágaint faoin Rialtas ordú a dhéanamh ó am go ham ina leagfaí amach cad iad na límistéirí a háirmheofaí ina límistéirí Gaeltachta. Ní dóigh liom gur féidir aon tsocrú eile a dhéanamh fé láthair. Dá réir sin, tá cumhacht á lorg ag an Rialtas in Alt a 2 den Bhille chun go bhféadfaí ó am go ham a chinneadh, le hordú, gur límistéirí Gaeltachta límistéirí áirithe. Is iad na límistéirí atá i gceist na límistéirí ar Gaeilgeoirí an mhórchuid de na daoine iontu agus límistéirí ina n-aice sin ar dóigh leis an Rialtas nár mhór iad d'áireamh mar Ghaeltacht d'fhonn an Ghaeilge a chaomhaint agus a leathnú mar ghnáth-urlabhra.
Beidh de chúram ar an Roinn nua faire agus fiosrúchán a dhéanamh agus eolas a chruinniú chun a chur ar chumas an Rialtais a chinneadh, do réir imeacht aimsire, cad iad na límistéirí Gaeltachta chun críche ginéarálta na Roinne. Le linn don Daonáireamh bheith ar siúl le déanaí, rinneadh comhaireamh speisialta ar na cainteoiri Gaeilge atá san ceantracha ar thug Coimisiún na Gaeltachta Gaeltacht agus Breac-Ghealtacht orthu. Beidh an teolas sin againn gan ró-mhoill.
Léiríonn Alt a 3 den Bhille na feidhmeanna atá le bheith ag an Roinn nua. Isé is céad fheidhm ag an Roinn leas cultúrtha, sóisialach agus geilleagrach na Gaeltachta a chur chun cinn. Dá réir sin, beidh an Roinn ag cabhrú leis an nGaeilge a chaomhaint agus a leathnú mar ghnáth-urlabhra. Ina theannta sin beidh ar an Roinn a mhéid is gá nó is cuí, comhairle a ghlacadh le ranna eile Stáit i dtaobh seirbhísí faoi riaradh na ranna sin a bhaineann le leas cultúrtha, sóisialach nó geilleagrach na Gaeltachta nó leis an gcuspóir náisiúnta an Ghaeilge [686] d'aithbheochaint ionas go raghaidh obair na ranna eile go léir go tapaidh agus le lán-éifeacht chun leasa na ndaoine sa Ghaeltacht.
Mheas an Rialtas gurb é ab'fhearr réim leathan mar sin a thabhairt d'fheidhmeanna na Roinne. Ní gá foráil a chur san mBille á cheangal ar an Roinn aon tseirbhísí poiblí a cuirfear faoina cúram ó am go ham a riaradh, mar tá dóthain cumhachta chuige sin ag an Rialtas cheana de bhun ailt a 6 den Acht Airí agus Rúnaithe (Leasú), 1939. Tá ar intinn ag an Rialtas, ámh, seirbhísí áirithe atá ann cheana a bhreithniú féachaint arbh fhearr iad d'aistriú chun na Roinne nua. Ach is léir dúinn gur fearr gan aon ní mar sin a dhéanamh go dtí go mbeidh an Roinn bunaithe agus go mbeidh againn cabhair príomh-oifigigh na Roinne in obair an bhreithnithe sin.
Tá socair ag an Rialtais a iarraidh ormsa an Roinn nua a chur faoi mo chúram go dtí go mbeidh sí bunaithe i gceart. Ach tar éis tamaill, nuair a bheadh obair na Roinne fé sheol, go mbeadh a hAire féin ina bun. Is riachtanach go mbeadh eolas ag an té a bheadh i mbun na hAireachta seo, ar an nGaeltacht agus, freisin, taithí aige ar obair Ranna eile chomh fada is a bhaineann leis an nGaeltacht. Is ar an gcúis sin ba mhian leis an Rialtas cúram bunuithe na hAireachta agus tosnuithe a cuid oibre a chur ormsa. Beidh, ar ndóigh, cúram na Roinne Oideachais orm chomh maith. Ach nuair a bheas tús curtha le hobair Aireacht na Gaeltachta beifear i ndon Aire fé leith a ainmniú do Roinn na Gaeltachta.
Beidh daoine ag cur ceiste cá mbeidh príomh-oifig na hAireachta nua. Níor cheart agus níorbh fhéidir ag an bpoinnte seo an cheist sin a shocrú go cinnte, ach, go dtí go mbeidh an Roinn ag obair, agus taithí againn ar a cuid oibre, is riachtanach go mbeadh an phríomh-oifig anseo i mBaile Átha Cliath. Ach ó thus tá sé beartaithe againn go mbeadh oifig stiúrtha i ngach aon cheann de na príomh-Ghaeltachtaí chun an obair a riaradh. Ní dóigh liom gur gá a thuille a rá mar gheall ar sin. Chífidh an Dáil an saghas riaracháin atá ar an [687] mBille agus nach féidir an Aireacht a bhunú i gceart ach ambulando mar a déarfá. Tá sé socraithe an Aireacht a bhunú nuair a bheas an Bille seo rite agus tosnú gan mhoill ar an Aireacht do bhunú i gceart. Molaim go léifear an Bille den Dara hUair.
Tomás Ó Deirg: Ba mhaith liom ar dtúis a rá gur mhaith liom go bhfuil an tAire thar nais ag obair arís agus tá súil agam go bhfuil sé arís in a sláinte. Ar dtúis tá rud beag staire ag baint leis an gceist seo. Bhí an tAire mar chathaoirleach ar Choimisiún na Gaeltachta beagnach 36 bliana ó shoin. Do mhol an Coimisiún sin go mba chóir Comisiún speisialta a chur ar bun le go gcuirfí beartas an Rialtais i bhfeidhm sa Ghaeltacht agus ar son na Gaeltachta.
Cuireadh amach páipéar bán tamall ina dhiaidh sin. Sa bpáipear bán sin, tugadh na breitheanna a bhí socruithe ag an Rialtas a dhéanamh ar na moltaí a tháinig ó Choimisiún na Gaeltachta mar gheall ar an gceist seo faoi Choimisiún speisialta a chur ar bun i gcóir na Gaeltachta. Duradh ar leathnach 29 den pháipéar bán sin:
“With the objects underlying all these recommendations—namely that the Gaeltacht requires special attention from the point of view of its economic and industrial development, and that there should be a competent authority to co-ordinate the special activities of the various departments of the Gaeltacht area — the Government are in complete accord. They have given very earnest consideration to the three methods outlined, and they have come to the conclusion that the objects in view could be more effectively and efficiently secured by assembling, under the control of a Minister of State, the principal services, e.g., land purchase and division, fisheries and rural industries, which cater specially for the economic needs of the congested districts in which the Gaeltacht areas are to be found. An arrangement of this nature supplemented by a scheme of close co-operation with the various Departments responsible for education, agricultural instruction, housing, [688] health, etc., will provide the special attention and co-ordination which is necessary, and will at the same time be free from certain disabilities which would unavoidably be associated with the setting up of a special commission.”
“The first step in the direction of the Government's proposal has already been taken. The Land Commission has been transferred to the Minister for Fisheries, who will act as the co-ordinating authority for Gaeltacht services in the future. The Minister will make the necessary arrangements to keep in close touch with those other aspects of governmental activities which are connected with or have repercussions on the economic development of the Gaeltacht, and it will be open to seek advice from any and every competent source in carrying out the heavy task which he is undertaking.”
Do réir dealraimh, cheap an Rialtas an rud sin nó Bord a chur ar bun agus gurbh fhéidir Airteacht fé leith agus cúramaí geilleagair chomh mór le cúrsaí culturtha bheith i gceist. Cad iad na socraithe is cóir a dhéanamh? Gan amhras, sé an ceann is tábhachtaí labhairt agus staid na teangan a leathnú agus go mbeadh suim ag na hAirí go léir sa Ghaeltacht agus go dtabharfaidís deá-shompla maidir le leas na Gaeilge agus na ndaoine a labhrann Gaeilge.
Ba cheart go mbeadh sé mar chúis ag an duine a bheas mar Aire i mbun na hoibre seo na ceisteanna tábhachtacha a bhaineann le saol geilleagrach na Gaeltachta a phlé, go mbeadh sé mar phríomhaidhm an Rialtais agus mar bheartas na hAireachta nua go ndéanfaí freastal ar riachtanaí práinneacha na Gaeltachta ó thaobh cultúir agus leas sósialach chomh mhaith leis an saol geilleagrach. Ní bheidh aon tairbhe ag baint leis an Aireacht nua muna gcuire an tAire sin beartas éifeachtúil fuinniúil os ár gcómhair. Cuir i gcás tá ciste forbartha náisiúnta ann agus ba mhaith liom a fháil amach conas a bheidh an scéal idir an Aireacht nua agus na scéimeanna fén chiste sin. Sílim nach bhfuil aon amhras ach go mbeimíd ag iarraidh [689] níos mó dualgais a chur ar an Aire agus ag iarraidh ar an Rialtas níos mó cabhrach a thabhairt agus beartas níos leithne a glacadh ina thaobh ná cuir i gcás dá mbeadh Rúnaí Pairliminte i mbun na hoibre.
Ba cheart go mbeadh faisnéis iomlán chomh luath agus is féidir ag na Teachtaí ar a bhfuil beartuithe ag an Aire agus i dtaobh na bpoinntí agus na rudaí sin atá luaite aige. B'fhéidir go mbeadh comhairle le cur ós comhair na Dála dá mbeadh eolas againn ar a bhfuil beartaithe ag an Aire. Ba mhaith leis an ngnáth-dhuine, agus leis an ngnáth-dhuine atá in a chónaí sa Ghaeltacht go mór mhór, eolas a bheith aige i dtaobh na bpleannanna atá i gceist.
Tá dualgas ar an Aire san obair seo agus má bhíonn aon mhilleán le cur is ar an Aire a chuirfear é agus, dá bhrí sin, tá contúirt ann muna bhféadfaí eolas níos cruinne agus tuairise níos cruinne a thabhairt i dtaobh dualgaisí an Aire maidir le cúrsaí geilleagracha. Is dócha nach féidir dul ar aghaidh gan athraithe a dhéanamh nuair a bhéas an t-eolas againn. Caithfear dul ar aghaidh go mall réidh féachaint cá bhfuilmíd ag dul, cuir i gcás i dtaobh na ceiste an ceart brainsí áirithe a aistriú go dtí an roinn nua.
Ba cheart dúinn bheith cinnte i dtaobh an scéil agus go bhféadfaí innsint don Dáil go cruinn cad iad na dualgaisí a bhéas ar an Aire, nach mar chomhairleoir ar fad a bhéas an tAire ach go mbeidh dualgais fé leith air. Caithimíd a fháil amach i dtaobh na nAirí a bhfuil baint acu leis an nGaeltacht, cur i gcás an Roinn Rialtais Aitiúil nó an Roinn Talmhaíochta, conas a bhéas an scéal annsin.
Ba mhaith liom go dtuigfimid conas atá an scéal. Tuigimid, cuir i gcás, go mbeidh cúram an oideachais féin ar an Roinn Oideachais, go mór mór, forbairt agus leathnú an Bhun-Oideachais agus an Ghairm-Oideachais sa Ghaeltacht ach maidir leis an scéal fé Choimisiún na Talún agus an Roinn Talmhaíochta go speisialta, ní thuigimid conas a bheidh an dlúbhamt nó an ceangal nó an scéim comh-oibre idir na Ranna sin.
D'éirigh linn obair na Ranna uilig [690] a chomhordú agus a chomhriaradh i dteannta a chéile faoin gCoiste Idir-Rannach ar a raibh baill as gach Roinn. Tá súil agam go leanfar leis an gCoiste Idir-Rannach fén riarachán nua agus go mbeidh an tAire mar chathaoirleach ar an gCoiste.
Na daoine, muintir na Gaeltachta agus eile, a bhí ag iarraidh bord a chur ar bun, chíonn siad anois, ós rud é go bhfuil an bhreith tugtha agus go nglacann an Dáil leis an Aireacht nua, nach fiú dóibh a bheith ag iarraidh bord neamhspleách ach b'fhéidir go mba cheart an cheist d'aithbhreithniú arís ón taobh seo — deireann siad ins an bpáipéar, Guth na Gaeltachta, Mí Eanáir:
“Molaimid don Aire nuadh bord a bhunú faoina chomhairle fhéin agus dothain airgid d'iarraidh ar Dháil Éireann agus a chuirfidh i gcumas don Bhord an obair atá riachtanach do shlánú na Gaeltachta a chur i gcrích chó luath in Éirinn agus is feidir é.”
Tá sé sin ag cur i gcoinne, is dócha, na breithe atá tugtha ag an Rialtas, ach b'fhéidir go mbeidh níos mó sásaimh ann dá mbeadh comhairle, ar a mbeadh daoine ó lasmuich chomh maith le daoine ó na Ranna a bhfuil baint acu leis an nGaeltacht go speisialta, mar tá eolas níos cruinne ag cuid den na príomh-dhaoine sa ghluaiseacht seo, b'fhéidir, ar chúrsaí na Gaeltachta ná mar atá ag oifigígh na Roinne. Breathnaíonn siad ar an rud ó thaobh eile agus uaireanta ní fheiceann siad na deacrachtaí atá ann. Tá faitíos ann go raghaidh siad ro-fhada amach ón Rialtas. Ba chóir dóibh a thuiscint mura mbeidh dea-thoil na ndaoine san obair agus mura bhfuil na daoine féin sasta cuidiú le aon iarracht atá ar siúl, ní éireoidh leis an Aire nó le coimisiún nó bord nó aon scéim eile. Ní fhéadfaidh an tAire ach stiúradh a thabhairt agus scéimeanna a chur ar bun. Táimid ag iarraidh an Ghaeltacht a leathnú. Deireann an páipéar seo go bhfuil 39 paroistí Gaeilge ins an Ghaeltacht fá lathair agus, má tá sé sin reasúnta cruinn, b'fhéidir go bhféadfaí glacadh leis nuair a bhéas ordú le déanamh faoi Alt a 2.
Déanann siad tagairt faoi leith don [691] ímirce agus deirtear go bhfuil nios mó ná trí as ceathair de na cainteoiri ó dúchas imithe thar lear. Má tá an scéal chomh dona sin agus is dócha go bhfuil, beidh tréan-iarracht ag teastáil chun an scéal a leigheas. Tá súil agam nach bhfuil an scéal chomh dona, ach tá faitíos orm go bhfuil. Ní mór na daoine óga a choimeád sa bhaile, na cailíní óga chomh maith leis na buachaillí óga, agus obair a thabhairt dóibh ina gceantracha fhéin. Ní leor scéimeanna. Ní mór spirid éigin a chothú agus a mhúscailt ina measc go bhfeicfidh siad gurb í seo a dtír dúchais féin, go mbfhéidir nach bhfuil an t-airgead céanna le fáil ach má theánn siad go Sasana tá an faitíos ann go mbeidh siad caillte agus go mbeidh a gcuid Gaeilge caillte don tír ar fad.
Ar na ceantracha as a mbíonn daoine ag imirt go Sasana tá Muigheo agus Tír Chonaill. Tá Tír Chonaill go hanláidir fós agus fiú amháin na daoine théas go Sasana ní dhéanann siad dearmad ar a gcuid Gaeilge. Tá sé an-úsáideach go bhfuil siad i ndon a dteanga féin a chleachtadh gan fhios ag na daoine i réim ansin cad é tá ar siúl acu. Ach, i gCo. Mhuigheo tá an Ghaeilge caillte ina lán de na ceantracha gur as na hoibrithe—“migratory labourers.” Tá sí caillte le fada an lá.
Nuair a chuir Coimisiún na Gaeltachta an tuairise amach ar dtús, gí go bhféadfaí a rá, mar d'fhéadfaí a rá fá láthair, gur cainteoirí Gaeilge daoine na paróiste nó an cheanntair iad—bhí an Ghaeilge acu ceart go leor— ach an raibh sí á húsáid? An raibh sí á húsáid san Eaglais Dia Domhnaigh? Sin cruthúnas. Go dtí go raibh áireamh againn arna páistí sna scoileanna a raibh an Ghaeilge mar ghnáth-theanga acu ar an teallaigh, ní raibh fhios againn conas mar a bhí an scéal.
Tá gach uile rud ag cur i gcoinne na Gaeilge agus na Gaeltacha fá lathair. Mar adeir an páipéar, ní hé meath na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht ach imeacht an phobail as an Ghaeltacht an rud is mó.
Mara mbeidh an tAire i ndon a thaispeáint go bhfuil scéimeanna aige, agus mara mbeidh an dualgas air go bhféadfaí a rá go bhfuil ceist iascaigh nó ceist talmhaíochta nó [692] ceisteanna rialtais áitiúil á scrúdú agus mara bhféadfaí rud éigin a dhéanamh chun níos mó misneach a thabhairt do na daoine óga agus obair réasúnta seasmhach a thabhairt dóibh, beidh díombá ar dhaoine agus tá faitíos orm go mbeidh an scéal níos measa, is é sin, má tá siad ag súil leis an Roinn sin chun scéim nua a chur ar bun. Mura bhfuil scéimeanna nua i gceist ag an Rialtas, mura bhfuil aon pholasaí nua le cur fá bhráid na Dála ach go bhfuil saghas comh-aontú níos fearr ag teastáil agus go gceaptar gur féidir an scéim a bhí againn d'fheabhsú agus Aire a dhéanamh den duine a bhí i mbun na hoibre mar Rúnaí Pairliminte—tuigim go leor na fáthanna atá leis sin — ní dóigh liom go mbeidh na daoine a bhfuil suim acu sa Ghaeltacht agus sa Ghaeilge, go mór mór muintir na Gaeltachta féin, sásta leis sin agus cheapfaidh siad nach bhfuil ann ach an t-aon athrú, Aire i n-ionad an Rúnaí Pairliminte a bhí ann.
Ba mhaith liom mar gheall ar sin go mbeadh i bhfad níos mó eolais le fáil againn ón Aire. Mura bhfuil sé sin againn tá faitíos orm nach fiú an scéim seo chor ar bith. Ní ag dul i bhfeabhas atá an scéal ó lá go lá agus tá faitíos orm go mbeidh an locht ar an Aire má theipeann ar an scéim seo. Bheadh sé i bhfad níos fearr dá mbeadh páipéar bán againn ag míniú dhúinn cad atá ina aigne ag an Aire nua, agus ag déanamh argóinte go mba cheart seo nó siúd a dhéanamh. Tá dhá fhichead paróistí i gceist anseo agus ceapann sé go mba cheart na dúiche seo a dheighilt amach mar a rinne an Roinn Tailte roimhe seo. Caithfimid na ceantracha a dheighilt amach agus iad a chur faoi chúram príomh-chigire. Tá a fhios ag an Aire na deacrachtaí atá ann agus tá a fhios aige gur cheart an ceantar i dTír Chonaill Thuaidh a dheighilt faoi an scéim seo ó na ceantair i n-Oirthear Corcaighe agus i gCiarraighe. Ar an gcaoi sin is féidir, diaidh ar ndiaidh, ceangal a dhéanamh idir na ceantair go léir. Tá fhios agam go mbeidh sé an-deacair ach tá dualgas orainn an Ghaeltacht a láidriú agus a leathnú agus neart a chur ann. Beidh orainn cuidiú leis an Aire san obair seo, san obair an-deacair seo. Tá dualgas orainn anseo sa Dáil [693] lucht na Gaeltachta a ghríosadh agus a láidriú; tá dualgas orainn deashampla a thabhairt don phobal. Cuireadh suas monarcha nua i gCill Charthaigh agus nuair a fuair na buachaillí fostaíocht mhaith san tionscal sin bhíodar i ndon pósadh. Ní féidir páistí a bheith ag fás suas gan an pósadh agus gan na páistí, ní féidir linn an teanga a shábháil. Ba cheart go mbeadh rud éigin chun na daoine óga a ghríosadh chun pósadh, fiú amháin deontas ar phósadh. Ba cheart leis go mbeadh deontas éigin chun tithe a chur suas do na daoine nuaphósta. Tá fíor thobar na Gaeltachta i gContae na Gaillimhe ach níl solas leictreachais ná uisce sna tithe. San am chéanna, tá an Roinn sin ag caitheamh a lán airgid ag feabhsú feirmeacha beaga.
Féach ar na gliomaigh. Féach ar an méid airgid atá á tharraingt isteach acu. Tá aithne agam ar fhear i gConamara nach raibh sásta a bheith ag obair thar lear. Chuaigh sé chuig an bhFrainc agus do phioc sé suas a lán eolais faoi ghliomaigh agus in ionad an tairbhe a thabhairt don choigríoch, tháinig sé ar ais abhaile agus thosaigh sé ag obair anseo. Rud uafásach é go bhfuil orainn a bheith ag braith ar na Francaigh, ar an slí sin. Ba cheart go mbeadh an Rialtas i ndon an chomhairle seo a thabhairt do na daoine sa nGaeltacht. Ba cheart mar shampla go ndéanfadh an Roinn Tailte rud éigin faoi iascaireacht. Tionscal tábhachtach is ea iascaireacht. Tá muid i gconai ag caint faoi fheoil agus luach feola ach tá fhios againn chomh deacair is atá sé éisg folláin úr a fháil taobh amuigh de Bhaile Átha Cliath. Do rinne Fionán Ó Lionsaigh iarracht chun an iascaireacht d'fheabhsú agus ba mhór an trua é dá dteipfeadh ar an Aire nua anois ceist na mbád d'fheabhsú.
Tá áthas orm gur thóg an Rialtas an chéim seo. Tá súil agam go dtiocfaidh maitheas as; ach, ó thaobh mhuintir na Gaeltachta, ba cheart go mbeadh níos mó eolais maidir le pleannana agus scéimeanna an Rialtais le fáil.
Seán Ó Coileáin: Ba mhaith liom failtiú roimh an mBille seo. Tá áthas orm go bhfuil sé socraithe againn [694] cabhrú leis an Aire chun an cheist mhór seo, ceist na Gaeltachta, do réiteach. Níl an cheist iomlán romhainn fós agus níl sé soiléir dúinn, dar ndóigh. Ag féachaint siar 30 bliain nó mar sin, is léir dúinn, an fhaid atá ár Rialtas féin againn, nár deineadh dada, beagnach, i gcóir mhuintir na Gaeltachta.
Tá níos mó sa cheist seo ná beatha na teangan do shabháil agus, nuair a chuirimid na scéimeanna beaga atá ann go dtí seo san áireamh níl mé cinnte ná fuil an scéal níos measal b'fhéidir. Ní scéimeanna beaga is ái, linn ach scéimeanna móra. Tá na daoine scaipthe i ngach aon áit sa Ghaeltacht agus ní bheidh aon leigheas ar an scéal sin go dtí go gcuirfear slí bheatha éigin ar fáil sa Ghaeltacht ionus go bhféadfaid casadh ar ais chun dea-obair a dhéanamh ina gceantair féin. Más féidir leis an Aire i mbliana rud éigin a dhéanamh chun obair do chur ar fáil do mhuintir na Gaeltachta ina gceantair féin, creidim go mbeidh siad ag teacht ar ais go tapaidh.
Maidir leis an mBille seo, creidim, ar an gcéad dul síos, nach bhfuil ann ach caoi a thabhairt don Aire luí isteach leis an obair agus féachaint mór-thimpeall i dtreo is go mbeadh ar a chumas na deacrachtaí atá ag baint leis an scéal a thuiscint. Sa bhliain atá caite, bhí na scéimeanna don Ghaeltacht i gcúram níos mó ná an t-aon Roinn amháin. Bhí chuid acu fé chúram an Roinn Tailte, chuid eile ag an Roinn Oideachais agus chuid eile ag Ranna eile agus ní fhéadfadh aon duine fios a bheith aige cad a bhí ar siúl agus cé bhí i m bun na hoibre.
B'fhéidir go mb'fhearr na daoine a shabháil ná an teanga do shábháil. Is féidir ceist na teangan do chur ar leataobh ar dtús. Tá an teanga ag na daoine sin agus, más féidir leis an Aire rud éigin a dhéanamh dá maitheas, d'fhéadfaidis fanúint sa bhaile agus mar sin beidh an Gaeltacht féin sábháilte, agus beidh an teanga sábháilte freisin. Ach tá ceist níos mó ná sin ag baint leis an scéal seo. Cad mar gheall ar na daoine atá anois i gCondae na Midhe agus i gCondae na ThiarMhidhe agus Gaeilgeoirí iadsan? Tá [695] ceist eile ag baint leis na daoine sin mar tá—agus is mór an trua é—tá labhairt an teanga ag dul i laighead in áiteanna mar sin. Daoine iad sin atá tar éis teacht ó Ghaillimh nó i Contae Mhuigheo agus tá an Béarla ghá labhairt acu anois, cé gur chainteoirí Gaeilge a bhí iontu cupla bliain ó shoin.
Is í ceist eile a bheadh ós comhair an Aire ná na déantúis bheaga a bhí ag muintir na Gaeltachta uair amháin. Tá siad beagnach caillte. Tá sé de dhualgas orainn an bochtanas atá ag gabháil le cuid de na scéimeanna Gaeltachta do chur ar ceal. Creidim go mbeadh na daoine sin sásta dá mbeadh sé ar a gcumas obair d'fháil ina gceantair féin. Ní gá bheith ag feitheamh bliain nó mar sin — caithfimid tosach do dhéanamh fé láthair, mar táimid ar aon-aigne go bhfuil an scéal ag dul in olcas in aghaidh an lae.
Táim sásta gur cheap an Rialtas an tAire oiriúnach don obair seo do chur ar siúl. Níl duine sa tír a bhfuil níos mó suime aige sa teanga agus go bhfuil an oiread díograis ann maidir le muintir na Gaeltachta agus atá ag an Aire nua atá ceaptha ag an Rialtas i gcóir na hoibre sin. Céim ar aghaidh is ea an Bille seo. Nílimid ach ag tabhairt cead don Aire rud éigin a dhéanamh. Do réir an Bhille, beidh caoi eile againn chun na ceisteanna seo do phlé i rith na bliana ach má táimid dáiríre iarrfaidh mé ar an Aire rud éigin a dhéanamh go tapaidh. Tá fadhb mhór ag baint leis an iascaireacht agus le scéimeanna Choimisiún na Talún. D'fhéadfaí iarracht do dhéanamh chun cúrsaí cuartaíochta d'fheabhsú sna háiteanna sin.
Ba mhaith liom comhgháirdeachas do dhéanamh leis an Aire atá ceaptha ag an Rialtas agus má éiríonn leis an obair beimid lán-tsásta. Beidh rud éigin déanta aige ag deireadh a bheatha níos fearr ná mar déanadh riamh cheana. Go n-éirí an bóthar leis san obair atá roimhe.
Seán Ó Loingsigh: Táimid go léir ar aon-aigne is dócha ná fuil ceist na teangan ag dul ar aghaidh chomh maith agus ba cheart é bheith. Is fíor a rá, ceapaim, go bhfuil níos mó daoine sa Ghaeltacht gur féidir leo Gaeilge do labhairt ná mar a bhí ann 25 [696] bliain ó shoin; ach ní féidir a rá sílim, go bhfuil an líon cainteóirí Gaeilge ag dul i mhéid. Is olc an scéal é go bhfuil siad ag dul i laighead go fíor-thapaidh. Ón am a cuireadh ár Rialtas féin ar bun, táimíd ag iarraidh an cheist seo a leigheas ach d'ainneoin gach iarracht a deineadh agus atá á dhéanamh againn níor éirigh linn cosc a chur leis an meath a bhí ann. Is furasta an meath sin a chur i leith an Rialtais agus na ndreamanna politiciúla ach nach fíor go ndeirtear i gcónaí riamh go bhfuil an Rialtas ciontach agus gur mar sin a bhéas an scéal go deireadh na scríbe. Admhaíonn daoine macánta go bhfuil fórsaí achrannacha ag brú isteach ar an gceist sin ón am a tháinig an gluaisteán, an radio, agus na páipéirí Gallda isteach sa tír seo. Siad sin na fórsaí láidre atá ag brú isteach ar shaol muintir na tíre seo agus go háirithe muintir na Gaeltachta agus tá dochar á dhéanamh acu don Ghaeilge.
Tá an imirce ag déanamh dochair don teanga freisin. Tá na cathracha móra agus na tíortha thar lear ag mealladh na ndaoine óga ón tír seo agus go háirithe na daoine óga ón nGaeltacht. Tá cúis eile leis sin. Is furasta d'éinne dul ar an mbus nó ar an dtraen agus lón a thabhairt leis agus beidh sé i Sasana nó sa Bhreatain Bhig i leath-lá nó mar sin. Tá tuarastal an-mhór le fáil acu thar lear agus, chomh maith leis an tuarastal mór, tá mórán rudaí eile ins na háiteanna sin chun sásamh a thabhairt dóibh. Ní hí indé ná inniu a chonaic mé den chéad uair fógra san Cork Examiner ag iarraidh stiúrthóiri mná le haghaidh na mbusanna. Bhí an tuarastal do réir £9 nó £9 10s. sa tseachtain. Is furasta a fheicéail gur tuarastal an-mhór í sin do chailiní idir 17 agus 25 bliana d'aois. Tá sé an-deacair orainn cur i gcoinne na nithe sin. Creidim go bhfuil cailíní in Éirinn, fiu amháin ag dochtúirí agus i bpostanna mar sin, nach bhfuil ag fáil tuarastail chomh mór le sin, beagnach £10 sa tseachtain. Caithfidh daoine macánta agus daoine gur mhaith leo an fhírinne a admháil nach í an Rialtas amháin nó na dreamanna politicúla atá ciontach leis an imirce agus an meath atá tagtha ar an teanga Ghaelach.
[697] Tá nuachtán nua anseo agam —Amáireach— agus ceapaim go bhfuil muintir na Gaeltachta taobh thiar de. Sa nuachtán sin tá sé scríte:
“Tá meath na Gaeltachta ag teacht ar dhá bhealach, meath na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht agus imtheacht an phobail as an Ghaeltacht.”
Ní féidir liom argóint a dhéanamh le muintir na Gaeltachta féin ach nílim den tuairim go bhfuil an teanga féin ag dul in olcas sa nGaeltacht ach amháin go bhfuil na daoine óga ag imeacht ón Gaeltacht. Tá an teanga chomh láidir sna tithe sa nGaeltacht is a bhí sí riamh ach tá laghdú ag teacht ar líon na ndaoine go bhfuil an teanga acu ó dhúchas.
Mar sin féin, bíodh is go bhfuil an Rialtas nó na fórsaí achrannacha sin ciontach leis an meath nó leis an laghdú atá tagtha ar an nGaeilge, tá rud eile ag teastáil uainn, sé sin, spiorad nua d'athbheochaint agus gluaiseacht a chur ar bun a thiocfaidh ó na daoine féin agus go háirithe ó mhuintir na Gaeltachta. Ní thiocfaidh athbheochaint mar sin go furasta i spiorad na ndaoine má cailltear an Ghaeltacht. Do bheadh sé an dheacair spiorad mar sin d'athbheochaint ach mar sin féin dá gceapadh na daoine go léir go raibh an teanga Ghaelach ag dul as an saol ar fad ansin, im thuairim, thiocfadh an athbheochaint agus thiocfadh sí fíu amhain i measc daoine nach bhfuil aon tsuim acu faoi láthair sa nGaeltacht nó sa nGaeilge. Caithfimíd dóchas nua a spreagadh i measc cainteoirí na Gaeilge go léir agus i measc mhuintir na Gaeltachta faoi leith. Nílim den tuairim go gcuirfidh Bille, leis féin, an dóchas sin ionnta. Níl sa mBille ach iarracht ar gheallúint an Rialtais a chomhlíonadh. Ní dóigh liom — go fóill, ar aon chuma — go bhfuil aon obair mhór nó fónta laistiar de.
Dúirt an tAire nuair a bhí sé ag cur an Bhille seo faoin ár mbráid go gcuirfí an Aireacht ar bun ar ball agus go raibh air agus ar an Rialtas féachaint agus brí cheart d'fháil ar cad í an Ghaeltacht agus cad iad limistèirí na Gaeltachta. Táimíd go léir ar aon aigne faoi na deacrachtaí atá sna ceisteanna sin, ar cad is Gaeltacht ann, agus mar sin de. Dúirt [698] an tAire gurb é rud é Gaeltacht ná limistéir ina raibh formhór na ndaoine ann i ndon an Ghaeilge a labhairt, agus limistéirí taobh leis. Is furasta an méid sin go lèir a rá ach is deacair limistéirí oifigiúla a leagadh síos i dtreo is go mbeadh an tAire i ndon an chumhacht a chur i bhfeidhm ionnta. Biodh sin mar atá caithfimid go léir iarracht a dhéanamh chun na limistéirí sin a leagadh síos. Bhí mé ag plé na ceiste conas a d'fhéadfaimís na tórainneacha sin a leagadh síos, ó ann go ham. D'admhuigh gach éinne gur obair an chruaidh í sin. Do cheapfadh éinne go dtabharfaí aire éigin nó scrúdú éigin don cheist sin sar a chuirfí an Bille seo fenár mbráid. Ní cheapaim go ndearnadh sin. Measaim gur ceart go mbeadh an cheist sin socraithe sara mbeadh ar ár gcumas an Bille seo a phlé mar is ceart.
Nuair a tháinig an Rialtas seo i réim bhí acu córas oibre agus tá sé ann fós — Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeanntar gCúng—agus bhí mé féin mar Rúnaí Parlaiminte i bhfeighil na hoifige sin. Ba í an obair a bhí ar siúl agam comhordú a dhéanamh ar obair na Ranna Stáit eile a bhí dhá dhéanamh ag na Ranna sin sa Ghaeltacht. In ainneoin an méid atá ráite in Alt a 3, fo-alt a (2), measaim gur beag aird a thug an Rialtas ar an oifig atá ann agus a bhí ann go dtí dhá bhliain ó shoin.
Bhí ag obair leis an Oifig, mar adúirt an Teachta Ó Deirg, coiste idir-rannach. Bhí baill ar an gCoiste sin ó gach Roinn Stáit a raibh cúram éigin acu sa Ghaeltacht. Tháinig sé le chéile dhá fhichead uair ar a laghad i rith dhá bhliain go leith. Chuireas ceist chuig an Aire Rialtais Aitiúil dhá bhliain ó shoin ann. Dúirt sé, ó thainig an t-athrú Rialtais dhá bhliain ó shoin nach dtáinig an Coiste le chéile ach 8 n-uaire ar fad. Cheap an tAire go raibh an obair ag dul ar aghaidh go maith ach san am gcéanna is deacair a thuiscint conas is féidir an obair mheasctha a bhí le déanamh sa nGaeltacht a chomhordú gan an Coiste sin agus na h-oifigigh úd a raibh baint acu leis an nGaeltacht i ngach Roinn do theacht le chéile go minic. Is ar an tslí sin, a bhí an comhordú dhá [699] dhéanamh agus bhí ag éirí linn na deacrachtaí a shárú. Ar an gcuma sin freisin, rinneamar rud éigin fónta ar son na Gaeltachta sa nGaeltacht.
Is féidir leis an Aire a rá, agus an Bille seo á bhreithniú aige, nach raibh am aige féin ná ag an Aire Rialtas Aitiuil cúram ceart a thabhairt don cheist.
I bhfo-alt a 5 deir an tAire gur féidir leis seirbhísí áirithe á bhreithniú agus féachaint an féidir iad a thabhairt isteach faoin Aireacht nua ó am go ham. Mheasfadh duine go mbeadh in aigne an Rialtais cad iad na seirbhísí sin gur féidir leis iad a thabhairt isteach agus tagairt a dhéanamh dóibh. Táimid go léir dall faoi na seirbhisí a tógfaí isteach agus cathain a tógfaí isteach iad. B'fhéidir go bhfuil an tAire tofa cheana féin.
Tá áthas ar na córais Gaeilge go léir leis an mBille seo. Ach deir siad go mb'fhéidirr go mbfhearr Bord neamh-spleách a chur ar bun. Rinne mé an cheist sin a phlé mar is íomaí gearán a bhi ag na córais sin faoi Oifig na Gaeltachta. Tháinig an chéad ionsaí ó Chomhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge agus i Mí Deireadh Fómhar, 1943 chuireadar Meamram chuig an Taoiseach ag moladh an Bord sin a chur ar bun. Rinne an Coiste Idir-Rannach géar-scrúdú ar an Meamram agus níor mhol an Coiste go nglacfí leis an Meamram agus an Bord, ach go mb'fhéidir go nglacfaidís le cuid de mholtaí na Cómhdhála.
Dob é an gearán ba mhó a bhí ag an gComhdháil go raibh na límistéirí a bhí faoi chúram Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeanntar gCúng ró-mhór ar fad. Bhí sé chomh mór le leath na tíre agus ins an leath sin go raibh 800,000 daoine ina gcónaí agus gur cúram i bhfad ró-mhór é sin do oifig bheag ná do dhuine amháin, agus gur ceart an límistéir sin a laghdú don bhfíor-Ghaeltacht amháin.
B'fhéidir go raibh an ceart acu san argóint sin. Is dóigh liom go mbeadh sé i bhfad níos fusa domsa, mar Rúnaí Parlaiminte, agus don Choiste, cúram na Gaeltachta amháin a bheith orainn, agus gan bacadh leis an mBreac-Ghaeltacht agus na ceantracha cúnga.
Mar adúirt mé i dtosach, bhí sé [700] an-deacair dúinn an límistéir ceart a leagadh amach agus fíor-Ghaeltacht a thabhairt air. San Meamram úd tá tagairt don líon daoine a bhí ina gcónaí sa nGaeltacht idir an bhliain 1926 agus an bhliain 1950. Do réir an cómhairimh daoine—más shin é an focal ceart Gaeilge ar “census”—bhí 128,440 daoine a bhí os cionn trí bliana d'aois. Do réir an Mheamraim is í an figiúir 69,000 ba chruinne i gcóir na bliana sin. Idir an mbliain 1926 agus 1950 laghdaigh an figiúir sin go dtí 38,000, is é sin, an figiúir atá bunaithe ar an líon páistí—7,345—a fuair an deontas £5 sa mbliain 1950. Ma tá an méid sin fíor tá an-mheath ag teacht ar an nGaeltacht, míle duine in aghaidh gach bliana.
Deirtear leis, sa mheamram sin nach bhfuil sa bhfíor-Ghaeltacht anois ach 11 paróistí agus cuid de 13 paróistí eile agus iad suite in Iarthair Gaillimh. Iarthair Dún na nGall agus Iarthair Ciarraí. Fé mar adúirt an Teachta Ó Coileáin, tá cúpla Gaeltacht eile, ceann beag i gContae na Midhe; agus is féidir Gaeltacht a thabhairt ar an Rinn i bPort Láirge; tá ann freisin Béal Átha an Ghaorthaidh agus an ceanntar thart ar Cúl Aodh go bhfuil eolas mhaith ag an Aire air. Mar sin féin tá sé ag dul i laighead agus b'fhéidir gur féidir le bord cúram an cheantair bhig sin a ghlacadh.
Tá deacrachtaí eile ann agus sin iad na deacrachtaí a bhí á scrúdú ag an gCoiste nuair a cuireadh an meamram chuig an Taoiseach. Bhí baill na Comhdhála den tuairim gur ceart teicneóirí dá gcuid féin a chur thart ar fuaid na Gaeltachta. Ar dtús do mhol siad bainisteóir amháin a cheapadh agus an príomh-oifig a bheith suite in Gaillimh agus 14 nó 15 duine a bheith ag obair in áiteanna áirithe ar fuaid na Gaeltachta, daoine go mbeadh eolas teicniciúl acu ar gach rud idir talmhaíocht, innealltóireacht agus foraoíseacht. Do cheap siad go ndéanfadh £25,000 an gnó sin sa chéad bhliain. Measaim féin nach mbeadh dóthain san méid sin chun na tuarastail amháin a íoch.
B'é tuairim an Choiste ós rud é go raibh teicneóirí ag gach Roinn fé láthair agus go raibh taithí acu ar imeachtaí sa Ghaeltacht agus ar an [701] saghas oibre a bhí le déanamh ann agus nárbh fhéidir leis an gComhdháil nó an Bord neamh-spleách sin na teicneóirí gur mhian leo d'fháil a fháil go mba cheart teicneóirí na Roinne a chur ar fáil. In ainneoin sin, deir siad go mb'fhéidir go bhfuil rud éigean i meamram na Comhdhála, agus gur féidir Bord a chur ar bun chun cúrsaí cultúra agus cúrsaí soísialaigh do lámhseáil. Cuir i gcás d'fhéadfaí hallaí siamsa do chur ar bun agus riaradh do dhéanamh maidir le scoláirí óga do thúirt isteach sa Ghaeltacht i rith an tsamhraidh agus an Ghaeilge do mhúineadh dóibh agus cómhordú a dhéanamh leis na coistí go léir, Coiste na bPáistí, Comhaltas Uladh agus mar sin de, agus, fós, gurab fhéidir fostaíocht a chur ar fáil ar fuaid na tíre i monarchain, agus mar sin de, ionus go gcoimeadfaí na daoine ón Gaeltacht in Éirinn agus gan iachall a bheith ortha dul go Sasana chun obair d'fháil.
Is dóigh liom gur fiú don Aire tuarascáil na Comhdála a léamh agus machnamh a dhéanamh air féachaint an bhfuil aon rud san argóint a dheineann siad.
Bhí tairscint comh maith ag Comhaltas Uladh nach raibh cómh mór, is dóigh liom, leis an dtairiscint a bhí ag an gComhdáil. Mhol siad sin údarás éigin a chur ar bun. Cathaoirleach a bheadh i gceannas a mbeadh céim Rúnaí Phairliminte aige agus Leas-Chathaoirleach go mbeadh taithí agus eolas aige ar chúrsaí riaracháin, fear maith gnótha, a dubhairt siad, a cheapfaí ag an Aire Airgeadais, agus ceathrar ball, Muimhneach, Ultach, Connachtach agus duine eile ón Stát-Sheirbhís. Theastaigh uathu an oifig ceannais a bheith suite i nGaillimh agus reachtóir go mbeadh teangmháil pearsanta aige le gach duine sa Ghaeltacht a thiubhradh tuarascáil don udarás ó am go ham ar éileamh gach ceanntair sa Ghaeltacht.
Comh mbaith leis sin, do mhol siad coiste 25 baill a cheapadh chun comhairle agus moltaí a chur fé bhráid an udaráis agus d'fhéadfaí ionadaithe a ceapadh ón gCoiste sin chun comhoibriú a dhéanamh leis an údarás. Is dóigh liom go raibh rud éigean san moladh sin. Is dóigh liom comh mhaith go bhfuil an meamram i seilbh an Aire agus féidir leis macnamh [702] a dhéanamh ar na moltaí atá ann.
Rinneas tagairt cheaná d'oifig na Gaeltachta. Bhí an oifig sin beagáinín beag, admhaím, ach bhíodar in ndon obair mhaith a dhéanamh. Theastuigh uathu an oifig a leathnú anseo i mBaile Átha Cliath agus reachtóirí nó “field officers” do chur ag obair ar fuaid na Gaeltachta i dtreo is go mbeadh fhios go cruinn ag duine cad a bhí ag teastáil ó mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus conas dob fhearr a leigheasfaí aon ní dob fheidir a leigheas.
Bhí ar aigne agam, leis, fíor-iarracht a dhéanamh i ngach ceantar fíor-Ghaeltachta agus gach cabhair a bhí le fáil ón Stát a thabhairt isteach ann, cabhair ag baint le cúrsaí talmhaíochta agus cúrsaí foraíoseachta agus cúrsaí iascaireachta, agus mar sin de, agus ath-thógaint tithe agus gach a bhain le tithíocht agus gach iarracht a dhéanamh chun go bhféadfaimís a rá nach raibh aon rud arb fhéidir a dhéanamh nar deineadh i ngach ceantar fíor-Ghaeltachta. Chomh maith leis sin, bhí ar aigne againn Bórd fé leith a chur ar bun—ní Bord go mbeadh cúram na Gaeltachta ar fad air, ach Bord arb fhéidir leis tabhairt faoi obair áirithe, cuir i gcás, Bord Min-Fhéir Teoranta. Thosnaigh an Bord sin i gCo. Mhuigheo chun an portach a leasú agus a dhréineáil agus dá n-éireodh leis an mBord san obair sin cuirfí rompu, b'fhéidir, dul isteach sa Ghaeltacht agus tabhairt faoi obair den tsaghas céanna i ngach Gaeltacht agus breis talún a chur ar fáil. Is dóigh liom gurb é sin an rud is mó atá ag teastáil ó mhuintir na Gaeltachta.
Bhí ar aigne agamsa, leis, neamh-spleáchas a thabhairt do Ghaeltarra Éireann. Ní rinne mé mórán oibre air, ach bhí cúpla comhrá agam leis an Aire Tailte a bhí ann an uair sin, an Teachta Ó Deirg. Ní raibh fhios agam ar cheart é dhéanamh nó nár cheart. Bhí sé fé scrúdú agam agus bhí daoine ann a cheap gur maith an rud é, daoine gur féidir linn brath orthu. Dúirt na daoine sin liom go mbeadh sé ar chumas Ghaeltarra Éireann dul i gcomórtas níos fearr le daoine eile i gcúrsaí trádála, ach amháin neamh-spleáchas a bheith acu. Níl fhios agam an fíor é sin nó nach [703] fíor ach, mar sin féin, bhí pointe san argóint sin le h-aghaidh riaracháin ghinearalta sheirbhísí na Gaeltacht.
Rud eile, rinneamar iarracht ar na Gaeilgeoirí óga sa Ghaeltacht a thréineáil mar theicneoirí. Dúradh liom nuair a thángas isteach san oifig, nár cheart daoine ó Shasana a chur i gceannas ar mhonarchain a bhain le Gaeltarra Éireann, nach raibh á dhéanamh acu san ach an Béarla a thabhairt isteach sa monarchain agus sa Ghaeltacht. Chun an rud sin a leigheas thosnaíomar ar thriúr, i dtosach, Gaeilgeoirí óga a chur go Sasana agus iad a thréineáil ansin mar theicneoirí ionas go mbeadh siad i n-ann ar ball dul mar bhainisteoirí i monarchana Ghaeltarra Éireann ionas go gcuirfí deireadh leis an ngearáin go raibh bainisteoirí nach raibh an Ghaeilge acu ag teacht isteach ó Baile Átha Cliath, Corcaigh, nó Sasana agus ag déanamh dochair don teanga i measc na n-oibritheoirí a bhí ag Gaeltarra Éireann ar fud na Gaeltachta. Sin cúpla rud a bhí fé n-ár mbráid agus atá fós.
Tá súil agam go ndéanfaidh an Bille seo na rudaí atá ar aigne ag an Aire. Ní féidir liom é lochtú mar gheall ar an tsuim agus an spéis atá aige san teanga agus sa Ghaeltacht. Níl aon dabht ná go bhfuil an-tsuim agus an-spéis aige sa Ghaeltacht ach nílim sásta gur deineadh an scrúdú ceart, an scrúdú ba chóir a dhéanamh sar a dtiocfadh an tAire isteach sa Tigh aeo leis an mBille. Nílimid dall ar aidhmeanna an Bhille ach táimíd go léir dall ar conas is féidir na h-aidhmeanna sin a chur i gcrích. Measaim féin gur chóir go mbeadh an t-eolas sin aige um an dtaca seo. Is trua nach bhfuil an t-eolas againn. Níl ann fá láthair, pé scéal é, ach ainm-phláta nua a chur ar dhoras na h-oifige — in ionad “Oifig na Gaeltachta” beidh “Aireacht na Gaeltachta” ar an doras. Tá súil agam go raghaidh an Oifig i méid, ní hamháin i mBaile Átha Cliath ach ar fud na Gaeltachta agus go raghaidh obair na hAireachta nó na hOifige i méid chomh mór agus go ndéanfar tairbhe maith don teanga agus don Ghaeltacht.
Geallaim don Aire agus don Rialtas go dtabharfaimid gach cabhair agus go ndéanfaimid gach a bhfuil ar ár [704] gcumas chun go raghaidh an obair seo ar aghaidh go tapaidh i dtreo is go ndéanfar ar ball rud éigin fónta ar son na teangan agus ar son na Gaeltachta.
Fiontan Ó Cúgáin: Ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá ar an mBille seo. Ba mhaith liom céad míle fáilte a chur roimh an mBille. In welcoming this Bill I would like to issue a note of warning in relation to the approach to this matter, that there is the danger of the emphasis being on language alone. It is all right to give lip service to the Gaeltacht. That has been given to it for many years. We have the language in the Gaeltacht and the way to retain the language in the Gaeltacht is to keep the Irish speakers there. This is a question of bread and butter. This is a major problem, one that will require the full attention of the Minister. This is not a question that can be settled by sobs and “welfareism” as has been attempted in the past. As we say in the West: “Ní hé lá na gaoithe lá na scolb.” Now is the time to face up to this problem. It has been said many times that the people in the Gaeltacht just want sops. I think the answer to that can be found on the piers at Dún Laoghaire or Cobh any day. The people are not prepared to stay at home for that. They are prepared to work for a living if they get it and they would stay at home gladly if they could earn a decent living at home. There is more Irish spoken in Boston, Birmingham and Coventry tonight than in any townland in the Gaeltacht. Is mór an náire é.
I think the Minister is to be congratulated on taking this step. It is the first serious step that has been taken on behalf of the Gaeltacht areas since the establishment of this State. But we should make a realistic approach to the problem; we should cut out the idealism and the pessimism. Co-ordination between the different Departments is a necessary step in the development of the Gaeltacht but this matter also calls for co-ordination between all Parties. It also calls for goodwill so that we will not have a changing policy with every change of Government. I would like to see improvement of the harbours and the quays. At the moment, the quays can [705] cater only for currachs. The provision of hookers would also be a great benefit and, in order to encourage small industries, we should have cheap rates for power in the Gaeltacht areas. Lobster fishing should be developed to a greater extent.
There should also be an extension in the Gaeltacht of the land rehabilitation project or, as we call it, “The Dillon scheme”. Bog development on a greater scale should be undertaken. An organisation I should like to see taking part in all this work is the Irish Countrywomen's Association. They could assist quite a lot in the development of cottage industries and I think the Department might go so far as to give financial assistance to that association in this work. We know the area called Cois Fhairrge. It is a known fact that during the famine days people went to the seaboard where, it has been said, crops did not fail to the same extent as inland and where what was lacking from the land could be got from the sea.
I think the emphasis should again be on that angle — the sea and what the Gaeltacht people can get from the land. I hold that tourism should be developed to the fullest extent because of its great importance to the West where we have such a lot to offer. As I said before, this problem is much too big for a dual Ministry. It calls for the full attention of a single Department. It is a national problem, one that will have to be faced up to fully if it is to be faced at all. In Galway, we hope to see the establishment of the Gaeltacht Department in the capital of the Gaeltacht. All I will say in conclusion is: “Bail Ó Dhia ar an obair chruaidh seo.”
Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin: Rinne an cainteoir deiridh tagairt do “lip service to the language.” Más féidir teanga a fheabhsú níl bealach níos fearr chuige sin ná “lip service”. Dá dtiúrfadh an Dáil agus an Rialtas níos mó “lip service” don teanga bheadh a mhalairt de scéal ann. Dá mbeadh níos mó de'n “lip service” céanna seo sa Dáil b'fhéidir go mbeadh níos mó dí in úsáid ag na húdaráis áitiúla. Ansin bheadh an dea-shampla ag an bpobal. I ndeireadh na dála sí an “lip service”[706] a shábhálfas an teanga. Sí “lip service” deireadh gach cuspóra chun an teanga a shábháil.
Ba cheart go mbeadh nios mó eolais ag an Dáil, agus tá dualgas ar an Aire an t-eolas sin a chur ar fáil dúinn nuair atá Roinn nua dá bunú. Ba cheart go mbeadh againn ráiteas cruinn ar an mBille seo. Do thug an Teachta Ó Deirg agus an Teachta Ó Loingsigh i bhfad níos mó eolais dúinn ar bheartais chun ceist na teanga a fheabhsú ná mar thug an tAire fhéin. Breithnímis anois an Bille seo agus na forála atá ann gan claonadh agus le dea-mhéin. Más rud é go mbeidh orm rudaí a rá nach dtaitneóidh leis an Aire níor mhaith liom go gcreidfeadh sé go bhfuil aon urchóid im aigne, agus níl uaim ach an mhaitheas is mó don Ghaeltacht a bhaint as an mBille seo. Tá dhá rud ann agus ba cheart go mbeadh níos mó faisnéis mar gheall orthu le fáil. An chéad cheann, céard iad na Gaeltachta atá ar aigne ag an Rialtas? An dara cheann, agus ceann níos tábhachtaí b'fhéidir agus níos deacra, céard é sábháil na Gaeltachta. Faoi mar dúirt an cainteoir deireannach, tá Gaeltachtaí i mBoston, i mBirmingham agus i gCoventry agus iad ag dul i méid gach lá. Tá daoine a rugadh i Meiriceá agus is cainteoirí Gaeilge iad. Is maith an rud é gur féidir leo obair a sholáthair dóibh féin ansin. Is féidir comparáid a dhéanamh idir an imirce ón nGaeltacht agus an imeacht ó na háiteanna eile faoin tuaith. Cuir i gcás go bhfuil feirm 20 acra i lár na tíre: nach gá do na daoine óga as an bhfeirm sin dul i gcéin ach mac amháin? Más féidir linn an oiread liontí a choimeád sa bhfíor-Ghaeltacht is tá inti go dtí seo creidim go bhfuilimid ag sábháil na Gaeltachta, faoi láthair pé scéal é. Ba mhaith liom na tithe ina bhfuil an Ghaeilge á labhairt a choimeád mar atáid más féidir ach caithfidh na daoine óga imeacht as na ceantair chúnga bochta. Tógaimis mar shampla Oileáin Arann nó áit eile dá sórt sin: ní bhéadh áit sheasta ann do na daoine i gcionn trí glúin dá bhfanfaidís ar fad sa mbaile. Caithfidh siad imeacht ach tá sé de dhualgas orainn iad a choimeád in Eirinn más féidir, agus más féidir linn stop a chur leis an imirce as an [707] tír fré chéile creidim go ndéanfaidh sin laghdú ar an imirce as an nGaeltacht freisin. Ba mhaith linn a fháil amach cad tá ceaptha ag an Aire faoin mBille seo. Do réir mar dúirt an Teachta Seán Ó Loingsigh níl ann ach ainm nua a chur ar Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeantar gCúng, Aire in ionad Rúnaí Parlaiminte. Ba mhaith liom a fháil amach cad iad na rudaí atá ceaptha a dhéanamh leis na cumhachta nua. Ach seo ceist eile ba cheart dúinn a scrúdú — cé acu is fearr an sean-tslí nó an tslí nua. Nuair a bhí an Rúnaí Parlaiminte againn bhí sé neamhspleách agus bhí ar a chumas cúnamh faoi leith d'fháil in aon Roinn thar aon Rúnaí Parlaiminte eile. Tugadh treoir do gach Aire cuidiú leis an Rúnaí Parlaiminte. Ach anois beidh Aireacht speisialta ann agus is féidir go mbeidh easaontas idir é féin agus Airí eile maidir le rialú seirbhisí. Tógaimís é seo mar shampla. Ba mhaith liom go n-inseodh an tAire an ndéanfaidh an Oifig nua seo obair leictreachais nó obair Choimisiún na Talún a bhí dhá déanamh sa nGaeltacht go dtí seo? An fearr a sholáthródh an Oifig nua leictreachas don Ceathrú Rua ná mar dhéanfadh B.S.L. é? Má déantar an obair sin anois le cabhair speisialta ón Aire an inseoidh sé cé a dhéanfas an obair sin agus cad é an chabhair a bhéas le fáil mar chúnamh airgid nach bhfuil ar fáil faoi láthair. Más féidir leis an Aire an chabhair sin a thabhairt cén fáth nach bhfuil an Rialtas dá tabhairt faoi láthair. Cén fáth bheith ag feitheamh leis an Aireacht nua?
Anois tagaim go dtí ceist na hiascaireachta. An fearr a dhéanfadh an Aireacht nua an obair sin ná mar a déantar faoi lathair í? Níor fhan na Seirbhísí Iascaireachta go dtí go mbunófaí an Aireacht seo le Scéim Bád don Ghaeltacht a thionsnamh. Rinneadh sin roimh an athrú Rialtais agus tugadh airgead as an gCiste Forbartha Náisiúnta chun tús a chur leis.
An fearr a socrófar ceisteanna talún sa nGaeltacht tar éis an Bille seo ná mar rinneadh faoi Choimisiún na Talún? Mar sin de, maidir le gach seirbhís eile faoin Rialtas agus faoin údarás áitiúil, is féidir an cheist [708] chéanna a chur. Táimid ag iarraidh faisnéis a fháil faoi na rudaí seo agus ní hionann na ceisteanna sin is a rá nach bhfuil dea-mhéin againn don chrot agus don fhoirmiúlacht nua atá dá gcur ar Oifig na Gaeltachta. Maidir leis an Oifig sin is dócha go mbeidh na hoifigigh céanna ann agus is dócha gur i mBaile Átha Cliath anseo a bhéas an Oifig.
Ní bheidh fiú amháin duine sa mbreis mar is é an tAire Oideachais a bhéas ina Aire ar an nGaeltacht. Ar ndóigh, dúirt sé féin go mbeadh sé níos fearr mar sin go dtí go mbeadh duine a mbeadh tréineáil air in obair na Gaeltachta nó go soláthrófaí duine go mbeadh eolas speisialta ar an nGaeltacht aige agus go mb'fhéidir Aire a dhéanamh dhe.
Chuala mé Teachta amháin ag caint mar gheall ar an cheist seo sa toghchán i gCiarraighe. Tá sé ina Theachta don Ghaeltacht. Tá mé féin á cheapadh ná beadh ró-dheifir ar an Rialtas mar gheall ar an mBille seo marach an toghchán sin i gCiarraighe. Ach bhí an Teachta seo ag déanamh gaisce gurb í seo an chéad Bhille a tugadh isteach i nDáil Éireann a clóbhualadh sa teanga Ghaeilge. Ní fíor é sin gur i nGaeilge amháin atá sé agus freisin ní fíor é gurb í seo an chéad Bhille go raibh an Ghaeilge mar príomh-leagan air. Cad mar gheall ar Bhille an Bhunreachta. Is ait an scéal é gur déanadh faillí i seirbhísí na Gaeltachta — bainim úsáid as an bhfocal “seirbhís” mar fhocal ghinearálta—le dhá bhliain anuas. Nuair a bhí Fianna Fáil in oifig ceapadh Rúnaí Parlaiminte chun freastal go speisialta ar an nGaeltacht. Nuair a tháinig an Rialtas seo isteach do cuireadh cúram úile ar an Rúnaí Parlaiminte ach tugadh cúram na Gaeltachta d'Aire eile, don Aire Rialtais Aitiúil, duine go bhfuil a fhíor-dhóthain le dénamh aige cheana féin. Mura bhfuil níos mó ná a chuid féin de dualgasaí ar an Aire Rialtas Aitiúil sa tír seo ní fios dom cad is brí le obair lán-aimsire. Fé mar adúirt an Teachta Seán Ó Loingsigh, do rinneadh faillí ós rud é nár tionóladh an coiste a bhí ann ach ocht n-uaire sa dá bhliain. Dúirt an tAire liom mar fhreagra ar cheist a chuireas air le déanaí sa [709] Dáil go raibh dian-mhachtnamh á dhéanamh le dhá bhliain ar cad ba chóir a dhéanamh faoin gceist seo.
B'ait agus b'aisteach an scéal í gur cuireadh ceisteanna mór-thimpeall na tíre ó am an toghcháin i gCiarraighe agus go raibh na ceisteanna á gcur ar dhaoine tríd an nGaeltacht ar cad é an rud is ceart a dhéanamh. Ní raibh Fianna Fáil chomh gaisciúil ná chomh cainteach ach bhí siad i bhfad níos gníomhaí. Chímíd go raibh airgead ann chun uisce do sholáthair d'áiteanna sa nGaeltacht ar thionsnamh an Choiste Eadar-Rannach nuair a bhí an Teachta Seán Ó Loingsigh ag ghníomhú mar Rúnaí Parlaiminte. Cuirim i gcás freisin scéim na mbád don Ghaeltacht.
Tá beartas ag Coimisiúin na Talún an líon daoine i límistéirí áirithe do laghdú agus iad a chur go h-áiteanna áirithe eile mar Chontae na Midhe. Tá daoine eile ann anois adeir go bhfuilmid ag déanamh dochair do chúis na teangan san obair sin, is é sin, na daoine do leathnú amach agus iad do scaipeadh. Deir siad go mba chóir bailte beaga a chur ar bun agus na daoine a thabhairt le chéile agus “community life” a thabhairt dóibh agus gach fearas a thabhairt dóibh a thabharfadh saol compórdach dóibh. Bhí taobh amháin de sín, ar chuma ar bith, a bhí beartaithe ag Fianna Fáil nuair a bhí siad in oifig. Bheartaigh Rialtas Fhianna Fáil ar bhaile beag a bhunú ina mbeadh iascaireacht mar shlí beatha ag na daoine ann. Chuir mé ceist ar an Rúnaí Parlaiminte a bhfuil cúram iascaireachta sa tír seo air. D'fhiafraíos de cad a bhí á dhéanamh mar gheall ar an tionscnamh seo go háirithe. Dúirt sé go raibh sé fé bhreith agus fé mheadh i gcónaí — rud a bhí beartaithe agus socraithe ag Rialtas Fhianna Fáil sar a chuaigh siad as oifig. Tá cosúlacht ar an scéal go bhfuil sé caithe in áirde. Bhí somplaí eile den tsórt chéanna a thaispeánas go raibh níos mó fonn ar an Rialtas seo nach mbeadh aon chreidiúint ag dul don tsean-Rialtas ná na buntaistí a sholáthair. Bhí caint achrannach idir mé féin agus an tAire Rialtais Aitiúil. Bhí moill mhór i dtaobh rudaí áirithe. B'ait an rud sin mar bhí a fhios ag na daoine cé thosaigh na rudaí agus ba shuarach, i [710] Parlaimint náisiúnta na tíre seo, leas na Gaeltachta a bheith mar liathróid pheile idir na pairtithe sa Dáil.
Tá rud amháin ann nach féidir a bhréagnú i gceist seo na Gaeltachta agus is minic adúirt mé féin é. Nílim ag caint anois as mo thuairimí féin ach do réir cheistniú siar — mhuintir na Gaeltachta. Is minic a chloisimíd sa Teach seo agus lasmuigh sna heagrais mar Chonnradh na Gaeilge, an Chomhdháil, agus mar sin, go bhfuil meath ag teacht ar an nGaeltacht. Ní fheicim aon rian de chungú ag teacht ar an nGaeltacht ó bhí mé im pháiste nó ar fhairsingeacht Gaeltacht Chonamara le 40 bliain. Ach tá seo le rá faoi. Tá níos mó Béarla san limistéir sin ná mar a bhí 40 bliain ó shoin.
Seán Ó Coileán: Is fíor sin, ar ndó.
Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin: Is fíor; 30 bliain ó shoin shocruigh an Roinn Oideachais gur mar sin a bheadh an scéal. Dá gcuirfí deireadh le múineadh an Bhéarla sna scoileanna náisiúnta sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht amáireach, ón lá sin amach thabharfadh muintir na Gaeltachta cúl láimhe don Ghaeilge.
Is maith an rud é go bhfuil Béarla maith ag na daoine óga sa nGaeltacht anois. Ach ní mar sin a bhí an scéal. Nuair a bheadh duine a scríobh chugam féin nuair a tháinig mé isteach sa Tigh seo i dtosach, is i mBéarla briste a scríobhadh sé chugam, ach ní hamhlaidh atá an scéal anois. Tá Béarla maith acu anois agus má tá, ar ndóigh, rinne sé sin leas do spioraid na Gaeilge istigh sa nGaeltacht.
Tagraim anseo do scéim deontas a thabhairt do lucht scoile sa bhfíor-Ghaeltacht. Tá eolas agam ar áiteacha sa bhfíor-Ghaeltacht san Iarthar ina mbeadh an Ghaeilge imithe murach an Scéim sin, agus tá eolas agam ar cheantar amháin a raibh i bhfad níos mó Béarla ann 40 blian ó shoin ná mar atá ó thosnaigh an Scéim sin. Níl an scéal chomh dona agus a cheapas na pessimists ar fad. Nílim ag rá áfach go bhfuil sé sásúil. Bíonn eagraíochtaí agus dreamanna eile a bhfuil baint acu le gluaiseacht na Gaeilge ag clamhsán go bhfuil an Ghaeilge ag meath sa nGaeltacht agus go bhfuil muintir na Gaeltachta ag casadh droim láimhe leis an [711] nGaeilge. Is minic a chuir mé ceist ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta faoin gcaint seo agus sé an freagra a fuair mé i gcónaí, go mbeadh an Ghaeilge acu i gcónaí sa nGaeltacht fhad is a bhéas fonn ar mhuintir na hÉireann í a fhoghlaim; ach an lá a mbrúfar isteach ar intinn na Gaeltachta nach bhfuil muintir na hÉireann ach ag mugadh magadh faoi athbheochaint na Gaeilge — nach bhfuil ann ach cur i gcéill — ón lá san amach éireoidh siad as an nGaeilge agus beidh siad comh Gallda le muintir na hÉireann fré chéile. Ní bheidh an dá Partition sa tír seo — an Partition atá ann agus Partition teanga. Siad muintir na hÉireann sa deireadh thiar a shocrós an cheist seo, agus má thagann muintir na hÉireann ar ais ar an nGaeilge, ón lá san amach, beidh an Ghaeltacht sábhálta.
Táimid ag caint anseo ar scéimeanna, scéimeanna, scéimeanna, go dtí go bhfuil muintir na Gaeltachta bréan, den fhocal sin “scéim.” Sé an dualgas atá ar mhuintir na hÉireann fré chéile a gcuid féin a dhéanamh san obair seo. Má dhéanann siad sin, beidh leath na hoibre déanta agus tá mé ag ceapadh gur fíor é dá bhféadfaí fíor-Ghaeltacht a bhunú anseo i lár phríomhchathair na tíre, go rachadh sé sin abhaile ar intinn na Gaeltachta i bhfad níos mó ná scéim ar bith.
Teastaíonn na scéimeanna, ar ndóigh, chun slí mhaireachtála a sholáthar ach ní dóigh liom gur scéim ar fónamh scéim ar bith nach dtiúrfadh cumas pósta agus socrú síos do leadanna óga agus cailíní óga as an nGaeltacht. Tá scéimeanna bóithre agus scéimeanna eile mar iad, agus ní dhéanann siad ach an leas a dhéanfadh bean tí d'fhear siúl a gheobhadh a dhinnéar uaithi. Beidh ocras air arís lá arna mhárach. Níl buaineacht ag baint leo. Tá go leor déanta ag Parlaimint na tíre, agus ag na Rialtais ar fad ar mhaithe leis an nGaeltacht — admhaím sin — ach ní obair bhuan í a stopfadh an imirce. Má táimid le himirce a stop sa nGaeltacht, sé mo thuairim féin go gcaithfear tionscail a chur ar bun a thiúrfas slí mhaireachtála buan don aos óg sa nGaeltacht, faoi mar atá ag an aos óg i mBaile Átha Cliath, [712] agus, ar ndóigh, sí an cheist a caithfear a réiteach faoi sin, cén áita mbeidh siad suite — i gceart-lár na Gaeltachta nó ar imeall na Gaeltachta.
I dtaobh tionscal má tá tú ag brath ar private enterprise na tionscail seo a bhunú, ní thiúrfaidh siad tús áite do lucht na Gaeltachta, agus i dtaobh tionscal, sí an cheist atá le réiteach: cén chaoi a mbeadh compromise idir private enterprise agus obair an Stáit. Tá mé ag ceapadh nach Stát-Sheirbhísigh an dream is éifeachtúla agus is fearr le tionscail a rith. Tá sé sin ceart go leor i dtaobh leictreachais, móna agus a leithéid, ach, ar ndóigh, ní shabhálfadh siadsan an Ghaeltacht leo féin nó ní stopfadh siad an imirce.
Tugaimid, mar adúirt an Teachta Seán Ó Coileáin, ár ndea-mhéin don Aire agus don Bhille seo, ach níl luaite sa mBille seo ach cuspóir. Sé an rud ba mhaith linn a fháil amach: céard tá beartaithe a dhéanamh faoin gcóras nua seo atá á sholáthair ag Dáil Éireann don Aire; cén deis oibre a bhéas ann; cén chomhoibriú a bhéas ann i dtaobh na seirbhísí atá á soláthar faoi láthair ag Ranna eile; agus, más tionscail atá i gceist aige, cé hiad na tionscail iad, cén dream a stiúrós iad agus cén chaoi a bhfaighidh siad a gcuid airgid?
Is minic adúradh liom dá mbeadh monarcha ag gach uile chros-bhóthar sa nGaeltacht nach sábhálfadh sés in an Ghaeltacht agus mura dtaga muintir na hÉireann ar ais ar an nGaeilge, is fánach a bheith ag súil go sábhálfaidh daoine bochta na Gaeltachta an Ghaeilge do náisiún nach bhfuil dáiríre faoina sábháil.
Tomás Ó hEadhra: Nílim i ndon labhairt ar feadh i bhfad i nGaeilge San áit a bhfuil cónaí ormsa, is é donas an scéil go bhfuil an chuid is mó de na daoine a raibh an Ghaeilge acu imithe agus níl na daoine atá fágtha i ndon an Ghaeilge a labhairt. Is mór an trua é sin. Ar an ábhar sin, níl mórán taithí agam i labhairt na Gaeilge. Ach mar sin féin ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an mBille seo. Aontaím le cuid mhaith de na rudai a dúirt na Teachtaí a labhair roimho seo agus tá súil agam go raghaidh gach rud ar aghaidh go maith maidir le ceist na Gaeltachta.
[713] Tá faitíos orm nach bhfuil an t-airgead le fáil chomh flúirseach agus ba mhaith linn.
I was speaking at quite a disadvantage on this debate in endeavouring to continue in Irish with the limited practice I have in the Irish language. I apologise to the House for not being as fluent as many other Deputies who have spoken before me. Please God, I shall have an opportunity of going to the Gaeltacht to brush up my Irish and when, perhaps, I come back here I shall be able to speak at length. There was a time when I could do so but because many of my neighbours, who at one time could speak Irish, have gone I am placed at a certain disadvantage.
Donnchadh Ó Briain: Níl tú go holc in aon chor.
Mr. O'Hara: Further, in the course of my business I meet people who speak in Irish. Is mar sin atá an scéal. I should like to say it is hard to expect the people to continue to live in the Gaeltacht and speak Irish in view of the many difficulties with which they are confronted. We must face up to realities. We must face up to the fact that at the present time the cost of living is very high. That is true for some years past. On uneconomic holdings in the main these people in the Gaeltacht have to depend and it would be absolutely impossible for them to eke out an existence. The problem of the uneconomic holding is a big one and it exists in the main in the Gaeltacht areas. In addition, you have the neglect of piers, harbours and slips.
You have high wages operating across the water. Workers can earn £12 and as much as £25 to £30 a week at piecework. We can well understand that these people would avail of the weekly pay packet instead of carrying on against such great difficulties in the Gaeltacht areas. Native Government failed to provide in any appreciable way industries for those people and failed to provide regular employment. Even where the employment was provided in some cases by the Gaeltacht section of the Department of Lands and the Fisheries Branch of the Department of Agriculture and so on, the amount of work done for the wages paid to the workers in these little industries [714] was nothing in comparison with what the people could earn, due to war conditions, across the water.
That state of affairs has militated in a big way against the Gaeltacht. I would certainly like to think that Irish would be the spoken language of the country but I see no solution to the problem unless we are prepared to tackle the thing boldly and spend considerable sums of money in trying to provide regular well-paid employment for the people in the Gaeltacht areas. It will be no easy task to get some of these people back. A lot of them are gone and I am afraid they are gone for good. In my constituency there are some Irish-speaking districts such as Achill and Erris and other places where the people still speak the language. Deputy Lindsay knows well, quite as well as I do, that there are many roads in these areas which are quite impassable.
If one approaches a Government Department to have something done to these roads, one is told that minor relief schemes should be carried out, costing £100, £200 or £300, and one finds it impossible to get any work done. One finds oneself up against numerous officials who will tell one that the number of registered unemployed in the area is too small. The number is too small because the young people have all gone to England. Successive Governments have failed to appreciate that point. Indeed, there are so many neglected roads in my constituency that one cannot blame the people for getting out and going to England, where they can work for £10, £15 or £20 a week and where they invest nothing but their labour.
This neglect of these areas is one of the main reasons why the Irish language has made no progress whatsoever. I listened to Deputy Derrig this morning and he seemed to bear out what I am saying now; I understood him to say that in parts of the Gaeltacht, particularly in Mayo, the Irish language is deteriorating rather than improving. Now, on measures such as this, one will always hear of a number of remedies, some of which may be good and some bad. Indeed, some may be pretty futile.
[715] I am convinced that we have never yet succeeded in getting from any native Government sufficient money to provide regular and well-paid employment for the people in the Gaeltacht, and so they migrate to Dublin or emigrate to England. What do they see here in Dublin when they arrive? They see the city streets being ripped up every day in the week in order to put down a new surface. All they had was the old bog road, and it is no wonder they get nettled and sore and say: “Well, to blazes with it! We are getting out”.
All this talk about the Irish language is just so much nonsense. The problem confronting us will have to be tackled boldly. What one calls this particular office is relatively unimportant, Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeanntar gCung or anything else, because, if one has not the money to spend on these neglected areas, one will get nowhere.
When Deputy Jack Lynch was Parliamentary Secretary he came down to Mayo and I spent a couple of days in his company. What his political affiliations were was no concern of mine; I felt he was sincere. He was easy to approach and prepared to do his best within the limits of his resources at the time. Some useful work was done in his time. But unfortunately not enough was done. I like to give credit where credit is due but, despite his enthusiasm and everything else, very little real progress was made.
We will have to make up our minds now to tackle this problem boldly, and I offer one solution. In Mayo we have hundreds and hundreds of lakes hidden away in our mountains. Many of them are in the Gaeltacht areas proper. Years ago they were wonderful lakes from the point of view of fishing and tourists, as well as our own people, fished them successfully. Unfortunately they have deteriorated from the point of view of fishing; that is possibly due to neglect of outlets and so forth. Very rarely do we see anyone to-day fishing these lakes because the fish are too small and offer no sport.
In some areas voluntary bodies have taken steps to remedy, the situation. [716] The people in Achill are trying to do something about the lakes there with a reasonable measure of success. Now our fisheries are a tremendous potential source of wealth. There has been a great deal of talk about the Tóstal — perhaps the Tóstal did do some good: it may have focussed the attention on the attractions of this country—and one of the main aims of the Tóstal was to extend the holiday period here. Deputy Lemass, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, was anxious that the holiday period should start earlier for one thing, thereby increasing the income we get from tourist sources.
If people who are interested in fishing know that we can offer plenty of sport in our lakes and rivers they will come here in ever-increasing numbers. Remember, these people do not mind one straw whether there is snow or hail or anything else. They will go out on the boats on the lakes or stand along the banks of the rivers, prepared to wait all day, with only a sandwich in their pockets. That may amaze those of us who are not interested in fishing, but nevertheless the fact remains that those who are interested are prepared to do that. These people spend a considerable amount on meals and so forth in hotels. Some come as organised groups from London and Birmingham and Manchester and they go back with the news that they have caught considerable quantities of fish; that news gets round and more people come the next year. These people are not, on the whole, anxious to stay in hotels. Many of them prefer the little thatched cottage. Such tourists supplement the incomes of the ordinary people in these areas and the ordinary people can provide them with the best food in the world: I repeat that, the best food in the world.
As well as attracting tourists, our rivers and lakes should provide our own people with fish. They did that in times gone by. As I say, we shall have to tackle this problem boldly. Recently the Inland Fisheries Trust purchased a site in Roscrea for a hatchery. Though I am not an expert, I think that site was established in the wrong locality. Strangely enough, a site of mine was inspected; I thought I was being quite generous when I [717] offered a site on my own land free of charge. The land in my part of the country is not very valuable because when the landlords were evicting the tenants long ago, they did not give them the best holdings by any means. I offered that site free of charge. My main reason was that I felt that, in the West of Ireland particularly, we needed to have the lakes stocked with fish. That holding of land, from my point of view, was not worth a lot of money but I think that that particular selection of a site was a mistake. I think that the Inland Fisheries Trust should have selected a site somewhere in the West of Ireland.
The tendency of Governments and civil servants seems to be to concentrate everything in the eastern part of Ireland to the detriment of the West. We have enough borders in this country without starting any more borders. I would suggest that you get these Inland Fishery Trust people at work as soon as possible. Let no red tape or no details hold them up and if this is going to be one of the most modern inland fisheries in Europe I hope the advantages of that plan will be made available to our part of the country.
Strangely enough, in the matter of electric light, another amenity, we have been the last to be considered. It is only now, at the tail end of the work, that we are being considered for electric light. I myself have not got it yet. I have my own little plant for the last 25 years or more but, so far as the E.S.B. is concerned, they have not provided light for my neighbours yet. The reason is that they are people of low valuation and when this matter was being considered in terms of pounds, shillings and pence there was no regard for the future well-being of the people living in those areas. Because our people see that going on they have got out of the country and made up their minds that, as far as native Governments are concerned, they do not mean much to them. Even at this late hour the matter should be further geared up so as to let the people see that they are getting some consideration. We cannot hope to establish industries in these areas [718] unless you have power to drive such industry.
Not so long ago I got a letter from an Englishman who used to come over on holidays to Ireland and he asked if our Government had any immediate plan for the development of the Gaeltacht areas. I had to tell him the plain truth, that the Government had no immediate solution for this particular problem with the exception of the expansion of forestry, the existing development at Glenamoyle, minor employment schemes and so forth.
It is a strange thing that people across the water in England can see for themselves the serious problem that exists and that they are so interested in the problem. This gentleman told me that he was prepared to help in any way he could. He gave one suggestion, and I felt it was one of the ways in which people can help, and that is to use the assistance of such bodies as Muintir na Tire and the Irish Countrywomen's Association or some other organised group so that the Minister and his officials will have somebody that they can contact and somebody to assist them in carrying out investigations in these areas with a view to having something done.
There is another way in which we can help these people. In many of these Gaeltacht areas there is an abundance of turf. Due to the fact that they are far removed from our cities and towns the turf is worth precious little on the roadside. The great problem of these people is to provide something in the nature of a cash income for them to supplement their ordinary earnings. During the emergency, because it was an emergency, we were very glad to get turf from these areas and it was good quality turf. I, myself, buy turf from 50 miles away, from Ballina, because it is good quality turf and is as good a fuel as can be used in any kind of range or fire. I feel that we have considerable areas of such bogland where each uneconomic holder has a few acres of such bog. If the industry was put on a proper commercial basis I believe it would provide, in many cases, the cash income so badly needed by these people and it would tend to keep them at home in [719] their own areas where the Irish language is still spoken.
Mr. S. Collins: What about the marketing of the turf?
Mr. O'Hara: On the question of the marketing of turf you have, in towns like Ballina and Castlebar, quite a considerable quantity of turf being used but unfortunately people still avail a good deal of coal as fuel. That is where I think we could do a useful job of work by having the thing properly organised. We all know that there are a few chancers in every trade and in the winter months you have some turf vendors prepared to come into town and bleed white the poor people because they feel it is their chance. It is that type of person who would avail of every opportunity, such as bad roads, to fleece their neighbours, that ruin an industry. I feel that in every sizable town such as Ballina, Castlebar or Tralee there should be a fuel dump properly covered and protected from the weather from which turf would be available at a given price.
An Ceann Comhairle: I think the Deputy is travelling a bit away from the subject matter of the Bill. I have allowed a general survey of the Gaeltacht but the question of how turf is to be stacked and dumped is something which is not relevant on this Bill.
Mr. O'Hara: It may be a bit wide of the Bill but if we are going to keep our people in the Gaeltacht and encourage them to speak Irish we must provide for them employment and offer them something to supplement their incomes. Deputy Collins put me on to develop that point about turf. I hope that the Minister will realise that these people have not learned that they have alternative employment at home. They know that employment is available to them in foreign countries where they are able to get higher wages and better conditions. Many of these are Irish-speaking people who would be glad to settle down at home, and get married if they could see that there was any future for them.
Deputy Bartley has mentioned a number of schemes, but the people in these areas are not satisfied to see officials coming down from Dublin, [720] making investigations, and then going away. They want to see some concrete results. In these matters, the Minister should appreciate that he is dealing with a highly intelligent people in the Gaeltacht. They are a shrewd people who know what they are doing. I would ask the Minister to do everything humanly possible to see that more and more money is made available by his Department for the improvement of the conditions of these people. If he does that his efforts will meet with success, and I believe that with the passing of time, such measures will tend to keep more of our people at home — something which is very badly needed.
The Church authorities as well as the lay population have been raising their voices against the flight from the land. The reason for that flight from the land is that the people are unable to get a living at home, and if the Minister can, even at this late stage, do something to deal with that situation, he will have the blessing and thanks of the Irish people.
Liam Mac Cuinneagáin: Ag rith frid m'aigne i rith na díospóireachta seo bhí teideal an leabhair sín “Fiche Bliain ag Fás.” Tá sé níos mó ná 20 bliain anois ó chuaigh an Rialtas, Connradh na Gaeilge, múinteoirí náisiúnta agus mórán daoine eile i mbun oibre. Is é an cuspóir a bhí acu go léir an Ghaeilge a shábháil agus an Ghaeltacht a leathnú. Tá mórán daoine a deir nach dearnadh faic ar son na Gaeltachta i rith an ama sin. Ní fíor sin. Rinneadh mórán. Cuireadh a lán airgid, móran oibre agus allas go leor isteach san iarracht atá tugtha go dtí seo. Ach is follas go raibh rudaí níos láidre ag obair in éadán na haithbheochana. Dá bhárr sin níl an toradh a mbeadh duine ag súil leis tagtha as na hiarrachtaí agus an t-allas go léir.
Mar sin de, le cúpla bliain anuas, tá daoine ag plé na ceiste arís agus á rá gur cheart modhanna oibrithe úra a cheapadh. Muintir na Gaeltachta a rá gur cheart “Bord na Gaeltachta” a chur ar bun. Comhaltas Uladh a cheapas gur fearr “údarás” speisialta a bhunú. Is é barúil mórán eile gurbh fhearr an obair thábhactach seo a chur faoi chúram Aire agus Aireachta. [721] Aontaím féin leis an tuairim dheireannach seo. Sílim go mbeidh sé níos éifeachtaí ná aon rud eile. Más gá is féidir coiste a chur ar bun chun comhairle treoir agus eolas a thabhairt don Aire. Níl cúis ar bith ann nach b'fhéadfadh Bórd agus Aireacht cabhrú le chéile.
Deirim leis an Aire gurbh í an imirce go dtí an Bhreatain agus go dtí bailte agus cathracha sa tír seo an rud is mó a chuir bac ar leathnú na Gaeilge go dtí seo. Sid é an ní is mó a chuir ar neamhní mórán den iarracht atá déanta. Rachadh laghdú ar an imirce go mór chun sochair na Gaeltachta.
Dá bhrí sin, caithfidh sé bheith mar phríomh-chuspóir ag an Aire slite a cheapadh chun laghdú a dhéanamh ar an imirce sin. Déanfaidh sé sin má thugann sé saol eacnamaíochta níos fearr don Ghaeltacht. Mura mbíonn páighe sheachtainiúil i rith na bliana le fáil acu caithfidh siad imeacht go tíortha eile nó isteach sna cathracha sa tír seo. Sin an rud is mó in achan Ghaeltacht sa tír. Sin an rud is mó atá ag obair in aghaidh na hiarrachta atá á déanamh, a bhí á déanamh agus a bhéas á déanamh chun an Ghaeilge d'aithbheochaint.
Bhí mé thíos ag oscailt oifigiúil an choláiste Gaeilge i dTeileann an bhliain seo caite. Bhí aithne mhaith agam ar an nGaeltacht sin agus bhí mé ag caint le daoine an lá sin agus tugadh figiúir dom. Sa cheantar sin ar fad níl ach beirt nó triúr daoine singil fágtha, taréis an méid imirce a bhí ann, idir 20 agus 45 bliain d'aois. Is féidir a rá mar sin go bhfuil ós cionn 90% den na daoine singil idir aois a 20 agus 45 taréis dul chun imirce. Níl mórán maitheasa a bheith ag ceapadh slite chun Gaeilge a chur dá labhairt in áit mar sin go dtí go gcuirfear stop leis an sruth fola sin ní amháin i dTeileann ach in achan Ghaeltacht ó Dhún na nGall go Ciarraighe.
Sin pointe amháin a bhí ag déanamh mór-imní do mhuintir Chomhaltas Uladh. Tuigeann siad an scéal agus molann siad don Aire, sa meamram atá siad tar éis a chur chuige, staidéar a dhéanamh air mura bhfuil sin déanta aige cheana féin. Sin an chéad rud a [722] caithfear a dhéanamh, saol eacnamaíochta na ndaoine a fheabhsú. Chun é sin a dhéanamh is gá airgead agus tuille airgid a chur isteach sa Ghaeltacht agus is gá an t-airgead sin a chaitheamh ar scéimeanna ann.
Níl maith ar bith bheith ag plé le ceantar go dtí go stopfar na daoine ag imeacht as. Chun é sin a dhéanamh is gá airgead a chur isteach in iascaireacht — ní rachaidh mé isteach go ró-doimhin sa ghné sin—agus airgead a chaitheamh ar bhádaí, ar eangacha agus tréineáil a thabhairt do na fir óga chun iascaireacht níos fearr a dhéanamh. Is gá chomh maith na calafoirt d'fheabhsú agus mura bhfuil an Rialtas réidh le airgead a chaitheamh ar an rud sin ní féidir leo beart ceart a dhéanamh don Ghaeltacht.
Is gá tuilleadh airgid a chaitheamh ar fhoraoiseacht agus tá go leor sléibhte agus talamh gan churaíocht agus droch-thalamh sa Ghaeltacht chun an méid foraoiseachta atá ar siúl faoi láthair a mhéadú faoi dheich nó níos mó. Sin rud a chuideos ní hé amháin leis an Ghaeltacht ach leis an tír chomh maith.
Caithfear na bóithre sa Ghaeltacht d'fheabhsú mar tá go leor bóithre ann nach féidir le cuairteóirí úsáid a bhaint astu toisc gur droch-bhóithre iad. Sin rud eile a chuideos leis an tír ar fad. Ba cheart breis airgid a thabhairt do na Comhairlí Contae chun bóithre a dhéanamh isteach go dtí portaigh nár hoscladh go fóill in a lán áiteacha sa Ghaeltacht siocair nach bhfuil slí cheart rompa isteach iontu. Anois tá luach an ghuail ag dul suas agus an caighdeán ag dul síos agus caithfidh an Rialtas réiteach a dhéanamh nuair a sroisfear an t-am nach féidir leis an ghnáth dhuine gual a cheannach. Seo rud eile a chuideodh leis an tír ar fad.
Mar gheall ar thalmhaíocht, tá's agam gur féidir a lán airgid a chaitheamh uirthi ach ní bheidh tairbhe ag baint leis mura gcaithfear é ar ghnéithe speisialta, cuir i gcás tithe trátaí a chur ar bun. Tá mórán rudaí eile go bhféadfaí airgead a chaitheamh orthu ach bheadh sé níos fearr an t-airgead a chaitheamh mar sin ná é a chaitheamh ar ghnáth thalmhaíocht.
Tá a lán le rá i bhfábhar déantúisí [723] agus mórán le rá ina aghaidh. Nuair a cuirtear monarcha ar bun sa Ghaeltacht, ní mórán maitheas iad má cuirtear i gceannas orthu ceardaithe nach bhfuil acu ach Béarla. Má tá ar intinn ag an Aire úr dul isteach chun staidéar a dhéanamh ar na déantúisí is fearr a chur ar siúl sa Ghaeltacht ba mhaith an rud i dtosach go ndéanfaí iarracht ar tréanáil Gaeilge a thabhairt do dhaoine teicniúla ionas nach gcuirfí daoine teicniúla go ceantar Gaeltachta chun an Béarla a thabhairt isteach.
Chun na rudai sin go léira chur i gcúpla focal is gá saol eacnamaíochta na Gaeltachta d'fheabhsú sa dóigh go mbeidh slí bheatha agus páigh sheachtainiúil le fáil ag na daoine in a mbailte féin. Mura ndéanfar é sin ní chuirim aon locht ar na daoine óga a bhailíos leo agus a théas thar lear.
Anois, tá a fhios ag an Aire chomh maith le duine ar bith eile gur olc an rud tosnú ar an rud seo le Aire amháin a bheith i bhfeighil dhá Aireacht. Bainfidh sé den tsuim agus den tsúil a bhí agus atá ag an bpobal go bhfuil rud mór á dhéanamh. Laghdóidh sé an tsúil agus an tsuim sin. Gí go ndéanfadh an tAire Oideachais níos mó ná Aire ar bith eile, ós rud é go bhfuil dhá Aireacht faoi fhear amháin, cuirfidh sé “feeling” i measc na ndaoine nach bhfuil an Rialtas i ndáiríre, nach bhfuil siad ach ag cur i gcéill, gur chuir siad an Aireacht seo faoi scathán an Aire Oideachais. Tá fhios ag an Aire gurab é an Roinn Oideachais an Roinn is lú ina gcuirtear suim sa tír i measc na ndaoine. Is fíor é sin.
Risteárd Ua Maolchatha: Tá súil agam go bhfuil athrú ag teacht air sin.
Liam Mac Cuinneagáin: Tá a fhios ag an Aire nuair a bhíos Meastachan na Roinne Oideachais á phlé cé mhéid Teachta a thagas isteach.
Risteárd Ua Maolchatha: B'fhéidir nach comhartha ró-chinnte é sin.
Liam Mac Cuinneagáin: Is comhartha é.
Risteárd Ua Maolchatha: B'fhéidir go dtiocfaidh feabhas air sin chomh maith leis an nGaeilge.
[724]Donnchadh Ó Briain: Tá súil againn. Is fada muid ag súil leis.
Liam Mac Cuinneagáin: B'fhéidir nach fíor an tuairim atá ag na daoine ach tá tuairim inniu i measc an phobail nach bhfuil ann ach cur i gcéill nuair cuirtear an Roinn uair faoi scathán Aire Oideachais. Tá sean-fhocal adeir “Tosach maith leath na hoibre.” Deirim féin nach tosach maith dhá Aireacht a chur faoi Aire amháin, go speisialta nuair is Aireacht na Gaeltachta atá i gceist. Ní ceart é a chur faoi scathán Aire a bhfuil cúramaí eile air. Fiú amháin anois, molaim don Rialtas agus don Taoiseach malairt intinne a dhéanamh ar an gceist agus duine éigin eile, a chur i bhfeighil na hAireachta seo nó fiú an tAire Ua Maolchatha é féin — níl mé i gcoinne an tAire Ua Maolchatha chomh fada agus nach mbeidh de chúram air ach an Ghaeltacht agus an Ghaeltacht amháin.
Ba mhaith liom go gcuirfidh an tAire an tuairim sin faoi bhráid an Taoisigh. Is tábhachtach an rud é. Pé tosach a dhéanfar, má ghnítear tosach maith anois is mó tábhacht é sin ná pé rud a déanfar i gceann cúpla bliain eile nó i gceann bliana eile.
Thar cheann gach aon rud, ba cheart don Rialtas a chur ina luí nó a thaispeáint do na daoine go bhfuil siad i ndáiríre, go bhfuil beartaithe acu ceart agus beart a dhéanamh don Ghaeltacht. Ní chuirfidh an rud atá chun a dhéanta anois ina luí ar na daoine go bhfuil an Rialtas i ndáiríre, cé go bhfuil.
Ba cheart don Rialtas Aire a chur i bhfeighil ón chéad lá agus ba cheart don Aire sin bualadh amach ar a chonnlán féin agus gan dul ar na linte atá leagtha amach ag na Ranna éagsúla eile.
An rud is measa a dhéanfadh an tAire ná gan talamh úr a threabhadh. Caithfear talamh úr a threabhadh agus caithfidh sé pleananna úra a cheapadh agus gan a bheith eaglach nach n-éireoidh leis na pleananna sin. Muna rachaidh sé amach ar bóithre agus slite úra ní bheidh maitheas ar bith ann.
Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil go leor brainsí de na Ranna eile ag plé leis [725] an gceist seo le fada ar na sean-slite a bhí ann le 20 bliain. Tá triail fhada go leor bainte as na slite sin chun an Ghaeltacht agus an Ghaeilge a shábháil. B'fhéidir nach ar na slite atá an locht ar fad, ach na constaicí atá ag obair i gcoinne na Gaeltachta. Mura rachaidh an tAire amach agus rudaí úra a dhéanamh agus gléasanna úra a cheapadh agus triail a bhaint as é siúd agus é seo, ní bheidh maitheas ar bith ann.
Sílim go mbeidh barraíocht le déanamh ag Aire a bhfuil a lán le déanamh aige cheana féin, ag plé le ceisteanna oideachais sa tír seo. Tá sé ag plé le ceist an Bhun-Oideachais, le scoltacha úra, le hoidí, le mórán gnéithe faoin gcóras Bun-Oideachais. Tá sé ag plé le ceist an Oideachais Teicniciúil nach bhfuil ach tar éis teacht ar a chosa. Tá go leor oibre le déanamh sa chóras sin go fóill. Caithfidh an tAire Oideachais a bheith gníomhach agus crua-oibreach i gcúrsaí oideachais sa tir seo.
Tá a lán déanta ach tá a lán eile le déanamh go fóill. Tá leath-lámh leis an Aire ceangailte agus níl aige ach leath-lámh eile chun cabhair a thabhairt don Ghaeltacht. Beidh sé i ndon an bhuaidh a fháil má chuireann sé ar bun Coiste speisealta, ar a mbeidh Stát-Sheirbhísigh agus daoine as an Ghaeltacht chun comhairle a thabhairt dó. B'fhéidir gur mar sin atá beartaithe ag an Aire chun an leath-lámh atá scaoilte a láidriú. B'fhéidir go bhfuil scéim in a aigne aige ach níor chuir sé an scéim sin ós ár gcómhair agus é ag tosnú na díospóireachta seo. Is mór an trua é sin. Is fadó anois ó rinne an Rialtas suas a n-aigne an Aireacht nua seo a bhunú. Níl cúis ar bith ann nach gcuirfeadh siad aon phlan atá acu ós cómhair na Dála inniu.
Is dócha go bhfuil sé beartaithe ag an Aire an Roinn nua seo a bhunú sa phríomh-chathair seo. Bhí na daoine sa Ghaeltacht agus Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge ag súil go gcuirfí an Aireacht nua seo agus oifig an Aire nua síos faoin tuaith, go mbeadh sí roinnte ar Thír Chonaill, Gaillimh agus Ciarraighe. Cén fáth nach ndearnadh sin? Dúirt an tAire go raibh sé níos fusa an Roinn nua a bhunú sa phríomh-chathair. Tá fhios [726] agam go bhfuil sé níos fusa é sin a dhéanamh ach caithfear na bealaigh deacra a shiúl freisin maidir leis an gceist seo agus níor cheart go mbeadh an Rialtas ag tincéireacht leis an Roinn nua i mBlá Cliath.
Rud eile, an rud is mó a bhí ag cur as don Rialtas, neamh-shuim an phobail agus neamh-shuim na nuachtán. Tá rud eile fós ann. Uair amháin dúirt an Teachta de Valera go gcaithfear an náisiúntacht d'aithbheochaint san aos óg. Ceapaim féin gurb é sin an t-aon rud amháin a shábhálfas an teanga. Caithfidh tú aithbheochaint náisiúntachta a bheith agat agus is dóigh liom nach bhfuil sé sin le feiceál inniu. Níl suim níos mó dhá chur ag na nuachtá in inaithbheochaint na teangan. Cuireadh eagrán caoga blian amach i gcóir an Golden Jubilee de cheann de na nuachtáin i mBlá Cliath le goirid. An measann sibh cé mhéad focal Gaeilge a bhí ins an dá chéad leathanach den eagrán sin? Bhí cheithre fhocal Gaeilge—Aer Lingus agus Bord na Móna. Fógraí a bhí iontu siúd. Muna ndéanfaidh na nuachtáin níos fearr ná sin tá faitíos orm nach mbeimid i ndon na daoine a ghríosadh. Caithfidh na nuachtáin obair a dhéanamh in aithbheochaint na teangan. Tá sé de dhualgas orthu é sin a dhéanamh.
Sé an rud deire ná airgead. Sin é an triú rud. Is gá airgead agus níor thug an tAire aon eolas dúinn cé mhéad atá ina aigne aige — an £2,000 nó £10,000 é. Níl réiteach ar bith ar an gceist sin sa Mheastachán i gcóir na bliana seo agus ba mhaith liom go ndéarfadh an tAire rud éigin faoi nuair a bhéas sé ag tabhairt freagra ag deire na díospóireachta seo.
Pádraig Ó Loingsigh: Agus mé ag éisteacht leis an díospóireacht, seo cuireadh im aigne rud adúirt Sean-Phádraig Ó Conaire nuair d'fhiafraigh fear dhe uair amháin cén áit a raibh cónaí air. Dúirt sé:
“Tá mé amuigh in uamhain i mBeann Eadair i measg na daoine móra ar a mbíonn brístí fada, leathna ag cur liathróidí beaga amú.”
Tá eagla orm go raibh a lán de na cainnteoirí sa díospóireacht seo ag [727] dul amú ar an tslí chéanna. Is Bille machinery é seo. Níl níos mó ann. Dúirt an Teachta Mac Phartháláin gur mór an náire go raibh an teanga mar liathróid peile idir na Páirtithe Polaitíochta agus ansin, ar feadh 20 nóiméadaí, níor scar sé ón bpolaitíocht.
This Bill for the institution of a Gaeltacht Ministry is a purely technical measure — one of machinery, and as such, its scope is naturally circumscribed. I welcome the Bill, even though its over-all sufficiency is not such as would satisfy myself or any of the people who come from any area where there are congested conditions and where Irish is being spoken in a diminished way as the years go on.
In Section 3, sub-section (2), it says that:—
“It shall be the function of the Department of the Gaeltacht to promote the cultural, social and economic welfare of the Gaeltacht ...”
In my view, the economic welfare consideration must come before we can have any sort of stabilisation either socially or culturally. It is only by stabilisation of population that we can hope to achieve a position where a regular vernacular will be used and will continue to be used.
Points have been raised here as to the relative merits of the Minister on the one hand and the Parliamentary Secretary on the other. I think that the real disadvantage under which the Parliamentary Secretary laboured was that he was not in the counsels of the Government and would not be in a position to advance his viewpoint with the Government itself. I would have certain doubts, such as Deputy Cunningham has expressed, about the adequacy of one Minister ruling two Departments, were it not for the fact that this Bill for the moment, and the machinery which is contemplated under it will be put into operation by the Minister for Education. The preservation of the Gaeltacht from the purely language point of view must, of course, be regarded as closely allied to the Department of Education and, in that respect, I can think of no better person than the present Minister for [728] Education to bring this machinery into operation.
But after that, when that machinery has been put on a proper footing and when the Department has been got under way, I think the multitudinous duties that naturally devolve on the Minister for Education would preclude him from fulfilling the equally multitudinous duties for the Minister for the Gaeltacht. It is for that reason that I think the title of this Bill should lay stress on the economic side of it, as I do, prior to the development of the cultural and social sides. I think that the title of the Bill should place some accent on development, and for that reason I think I would call the Department An Roinn Forbartha Gaeltachta — that is, the Department for the Development of the Gaeltacht. That would tend to promote the development of the Gaeltacht so as to take it out of the rather obvious channel into which it might fall if dealt with from a cultural point of view alone, and help to put a commercial premium on the speaking of Irish. In my view, certainly until the population is stabilised, we cannot possibly have the language spoken in an area which is now, to some extent, an emigration centre and, to some extent, a migration centre. You cannot expect the people to speak one language for six months of the year and another language for the other six.
Mr. Lindsay: Because the sudden changes of environment do not lend themselves to it; that is an elementary principle.
Mr. Derrig: What about the Germans in America and all the others? What about the Italians in France?
Mr. Lindsay: References to the French, the Italians and other people such as they are bring us to the proposition: are we to be bilingual or is our programme to be multilingual, or more than bilingual? Language questions in those cases, in Italy, France, and Switzerland, are questions of languages operating side by side all the time and as each occasion arises for the use of them. That must be a well-known [729] fact, and it is not at all related to the situation which we have here where you have early migration, where one language only is spoken in the parts to which the young people migrate.
I do not know, of course, what powers are contemplated for the Minister, but so far as I can see there is no positive power enshrined in this Bill. Then, of course, it is a machinery Bill rather than one which gives power. Section 2 states that:—
“The Government may from time to time by Order determine to be Gaeltacht areas specified areas, being substantially Irish speaking areas and areas contiguous thereto, which in the opinion of the Government ought to be included in the Gaeltacht with a view to preserving and extending the use of Irish as a vernacular language.”
I do not know how the Minister proposes to deal with this question of Orders, but I would suggest to him respectfully that he cannot make these areas embrace any lesser area than that already set out in the Schedule to the Gaeltacht Housing Act of 1929, that is No. 41 of 1929.
General Mulcahy: Even though the language has gone?
Mr. Lindsay: Assuming for the moment that the language has gone, I do not see any reason why people of the areas that were regarded as sufficiently Irish-speaking to be incorporated in that Act should be deprived of the benefits that accrued to them from time to time under that Act. That Act gives extent to the Gaeltacht, and at any rate, it constitutes in my opinion, the very first point at which there may well be a clash between the benefits that were given up to the present time and the Orders that may be made as set out under Section 2 of the Bill.
An Foras Tionscal should, with all speed, come under the scope of this new Department and in that respect I would suggest that the interpretation of the word “industry” should not be construed as narrowly as it is. [730]“Industry” as far as I can see at the moment is construed as something that goes on inside four walls or inside some sort of building. “Industry” in relation to the Gaeltacht must incorporate all activities of the Gaeltacht from the cottage industry within the house, to fishing or any other activity that may be going on in relation to seaweed or kelp or the like.
In closing, perhaps the Minister may be able to tell us how it is proposed to transfer the work of other Departments already operating in the areas with which we are dealing. I do not anticipate any difficulty once there is a Minister there who would have the ear of the Government and be present at meetings of the Government so that his point of view would be fully put to the Taoiseach and other Ministers of Departments into which it was sought to gain admission with a view to operating the particular parts of the Department in the new Ministry.
I do not agree with those Deputies who have suggested that people will say that this is a certain amount of cur i gcéill, pretending, window-dressing. I believe this is the beginning of a real effort to stabilise conditions in our congested areas. I do not see any prospect of having the Irish language established until the people are economically sound.
Mr. J. Flynn: I must apologise for the fact that my limited knowledge of the Irish language is not sufficient to enable me to make my speech entirely in that language. Like other speakers, I should like to congratulate the Minister on this Bill. I appreciate the action of the Government in introducing it. However, there are a few points on which I should like to be satisfied. Specified areas are mentioned in Section 2. Does the Minister contemplate revising the whole system in regard to the Fíor-Ghaeltacht, the Breac-Ghaeltacht and also congested districts contiguous thereto? The Minister will recall, as I am sure all previous Ministers for Education will recall, that from time to time local authorities and local representatives opposed different Governments in regard to the administration of what we in the country call the “School Meals [731] Act”. Under previous legislation, certain areas were specified and, as far as I am aware, all Irish speaking districts were included. However, whatever happened, certain schools and school children were precluded from participating in the scheme. Now that this opportunity presents itself, I should like the Minister to review that whole question and adjust this position so that that difficulty will not arise in future. When I speak about the Gaeltacht I mean the Fíor-Ghaeltacht, the Breac-Ghaeltacht and, in fact, other areas as well in congested districts which, whilst they may not be entirely Irish speaking, would nevertheless be entitled in my opinion, and in the opinion of the people of the country, to participate in a scheme of that nature.
In Section 3 the economic welfare of the Gaeltacht as well as its cultural and educational development is mentioned. I would ask the Minister if this legislation means that existing proposals under various other Departments can be taken over by him or reviewed by him? For instance, in South Kerry over a long period we have been awaiting the implementation of the tomato growing scheme which Fianna Fáil envisaged some years ago for the Fíor-Ghaeltacht district of Ballinskelligs but which was never implemented. That scheme was to be conducted by the Department of Agriculture. Under this new legislation, will the Minister be in a position to say to the Department of Agriculture: “My Department will now pursue this matter and deal with this problem in future?”
Another scheme which was conducted or carried on under the Department of Industry and Commerce was a hydroelectric scheme for Waterville and Mastergeehy. Mastergeehy and areas near it are in the Gaeltacht. Would the Minister be in a position to say to the Minister for Industry and Commerce under this proposed legislation: “I am going to deal with that particular scheme in future?” That is why I am making these points. I want to ensure that if this legislation is to benefit the Gaeltacht it will operate at an early date and that its provisions and the steps to be taken by the Minister [732] will be implemented at an early date.
Several speakers have asked questions in regard to the restriction of the Gaeltacht districts. When the Minister is replying, I hope he will tell us whether he is prepared to include the areas as mentioned in Section 3 contiguous to the Fíor-Gaeltacht and the Breac-Ghaeltacht. We in South Kerry have a large area of country which would be classed as congested districts but which would not, properly speaking I suppose, be classified as a Breac-Ghaeltacht. Nevertheless, apart altogether from the economic side, the percentage of Irish speakers would warrant attention and assistance under this legislation.
The point was made that our first steps should deal with the economic side. I entirely agree with that. Several other speakers have referred to the same point — that unless you can build up the districts, provide employment, establish some industry and some development you cannot induce the people to remain in the Ghaeltacht districts and you cannot give them an alternative to the offers they receive from concerns in outside countries. You cannot expect them to remain in the Gaeltacht districts and try to eke out an existence when they need not do so and when they can do better in other countries.
As I said at the outset, I welcome this measure. Perhaps, when the Minister is replying, he will be in a position to say something about the schemes initiated by the previous Government. We had several schemes initiated for the Gaeltacht which are not being implemented. I do not know what is going to happen. It is a very easy matter to hold up these schemes.
I have one such scheme in mind— the tomato scheme for Ballinskelligs in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht district. It was a scheme for 100 glass-houses. The point made was that there were not sufficient applicants who had a knowledge of Irish. When the Department did not get that number there was another question as regards suitability. They finally got 60 or 70 people who qualified but simply because they were unable to get the 100 applicants the Department [733] turned the scheme down. If there was sincerity about the matter and if there was a real desire to develop and implement the scheme they should have gone ahead with it even if they had only 50 applicants.
The same applies to the hydro-electric scheme in Waterville. I questioned the Minister for Industry and Commerce about it. The area in question is also a Gaeltacht district. The question of fisheries was held up as being the obstacle but that is 12 months ago and the scheme is not being implemented either.
There is now a golden opportunity for the Minister for Education to prove his sincerity about the Gaeltacht. He can say to the Minister concerned: “You have had a year or two trying to implement these schemes and you have done nothing. I am going to take over now in regard to these Gaeltacht schemes and I will do right.” I hope the Minister will refer to these matters when he is replying. I appreciate this measure.
Seán Mac Eochagáin: Tá áthas ormsa Bille den tsaghas seo a fheiscint ag dul tríd an Teach. Níl mé sásta leis an méid adúirt an tAire ar maidin go mbeadh an oifig i mBaile Átha Cliath. Tá mé ag ceapadh go bhfuil sé riachtanach ag an Rialtas an oifig seo do chur sa nGaeltacht agus é a chur i nGaeltacht na Gaillimhe. Sí Gaeltacht na Gaillimhe an ceann is mó sa tír seo agus tá me ag ceapadh gurbh é is fusa agus is fearr an oifig do chur in nGaillimh ná fuil ach leath slí idir Co. Chiarraighe agus Co. Dhún na nGall agus idir Co. Chorcaighe agus Co. Mhuigheo. Tá neart áiteacha ann. Tá neart seomraí ann agus d'fhéadfadh an tAire an oifig do chur ann.
Rud eile, níl mé sásta gurb é an rud is fearr Aireacht Ghaeltachta ach gurb fhearr Bord. Táthar ag iarraidh Boird don Ghaeltacht agus tá mé ag ceapadh gurb é sin an gléas is fearr. Tá againn Bord na Móna agus an E.S.B. agus tá an dá Bhord sin ag obair go han-mhaith. Tá mé ag ceapadh gurb é an rud is fearr Bord a chur ar bun agus gurb é sin an rud is fearr a thaithneodh le muintir na Gaeltachta agus le lucht labhartha na teangan.
[734] Gan dabht, tá na daoine ag imeacht leo as an nGaeltacht agus cad chuige nach mbeidís nuair ná fuil obair le fáil acu sa nGaeltacht. D'fhéadfadh an Rialtas a lán rudaí do chur i bhfeidhm chun cabhrú leis an nGaeltacht agus le muintir na Gaeltachta. Tá a lán daoine ag lorg tithe trátaí ach ní bheidh siad le fáil acu anois. Tá san nGaeltacht leis droch-bhóithre i gcuid den Ghaeltacht. Ó tharla go mbeidh an tAire i bhfeighil na hAireachta nua seo ba chóir dó airgead do chur isteach sa nGaeltacht chun na bóithre a dheisiú agus chun go mbeidh na daoine sásta.
Tá neart scéimeanna eile ann. Cuirim i gcás, monarchain bheaga do chur ar bun sa nGaeltacht. Do bhíodh leithscéal ann tráth gan na monarchain sin do bhunú sa nGaeltacht de bhrí nach raibh leictreachas le fáil ann ach buíochas le Dia nach bhfuil an leithscéal sin ann a thuilleadh. Tá an leictreachas ann agus is féidir na monarchain bheaga seo do bhunú sa nGaeltacht. Tá neart talaimh ann ar a bhféadfaí crainn do chur. Tá neart portach ann ná fuil bóithre déanta isteach chucu. Tá súil agam go bhféachfaidh an tAire isteach ins na rudaí seo agus go bhfaighaimid freagra ar na ceisteanna seo nuair a bhéas sé ag caint ag deireadh na díospóireachta. Ba cheart dó an oifig úd do bhunú i nGaeltacht na Gaillimhe, an Ghaeltacht is mó agus an áit is mó a labhairtear an Ghaeilge.
Seán Mac Cárthaigh: Is dóigh liom féin go bhfuil sé in am dúinn gearáin agus ologóin na mná-sí do chur i leath-taobh. Bhí ionadh ormsa an saghas sin cainte do chloisint ó dhaoine ón nGaeltacht ar an dtaobh eile den Teach seo. Bhíos i gConamara anuraidh. Ní raibh ionam ach cuairteoir ach nuair do shrois mé Cathair na Gaillimhe bhí an teanga á labhairt ann ar na sráideanna agus nuair do chuas amach go dtí Bóthar na Trá do tháinig fear go raibh capall agus trucail aige agus d'fhan sé cois na farraige ar feadh tamaill. Do chuaigb daoine chun cainte leis. Bhí sáirsint na nGardaí ann agus cúpla duine eile agus sí an Ghaeilge a bhí á labhairt aca ar feadh na huaire a bhí mise ansin. Bhí ann [735] stróinséirí ó áiteanna eile ar fud na hÉireann timpeall na háite ina suí cois farraige. Do chuas amach go dtí Tigh an Phiarsaigh agus do bhí na tithe gloine ar thaobh an bhóthair agus na daoine a bhí ag tabhairt aire dhóibh do bhí an Ghaeilge ar fheabhas acu. I nGaeilge a labhair siad liom. Bhí gearán áirithe acu gan dabht — go raibh an margadh go maith uaireanta agus uaireanta eile nach raibh sé go maith ach dob é sin an taon ghearán amháin a bhí acu. Sin é an t-aon gearán a bhí acu. Bhí a lán daoine scaipthe ann ag obair ar na portaigh, ag cur na monarchan aibhléise suas, agus timpeall na háite ann, agus bhí áthas an domhain orm faoin méid Gaeilge a bhí le cloisint an t-am sin.
Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil gach rud ag titim as a chéile sa Gaeltacht. Níl. Tá na scoileanna ann agus coláistí agus tá fhios agam féin go dtéann a lán daoine óga ó C.L.G. go dtí na coláistí sin gach bliain i ndiaidh a chéile. Sé an cuspóir atá ag na daoine a chuireann ann iad ná go mbeadh siad sin mar bhaill choiste chontae nó choiste Roinne chun an Ghaeilge a chur in úsáid ag na cruinnithe. Agus déanann siad é sin seachtain na Gaeilge, seachtain Lá Fhéile Pádraig agus laetheanta eile mar sin. Taispeánann sé sin gur féidir leo an Ghaeilge a labhairt i gcónaí ach sé an rud atá uainn anois ná í a chur in úsáid ar fud na tire ar fad.
Bíonn ionadh orm uaireanta faoin olagón a chloisim ag daoine sa Tigh seo go bhfuil an Ghaeilge acu agus gur féidir leo an Ghaeilge a labhairt agus í a chur in úsáid. Ní fheadar cad é an fáth nach labhrann daoine í, cad é an náire a bhíonn orthu. Dúirt Teachta amháin anseo go bhfuil níos mó Gaeilge i mBoston, i Nua-Eabhrac agus i mBirmingham ná tá sa tír seo. Níl aon náire orthu sna háiteacha sin teanga a dtire féin a chur in úsáid. Nuair a bhíos i Philadelphia as cúig dhuine déag nó mar sin ag cruinniú de Gaela, an céad cheathrar a tháinig chugam, bhí an Ghaeilge go maith acu cé go raibh beirt ann nach raibh in Éirinn riamh. Ní raibh aon náire orthu an Ghaeilge a labhairt, agus nuair a thagann daoine abhaile ó Mheiriceá a raibh an Ghaeilge acu nuair a chuadar ann, bhíonn áthas [736] orthu ar a dteacht abhaile nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge caillte acu. Teaspáineann sé sin domsa go bhfuil an Ghaeilge ag dul ar aghaidh ar fud na tíre agus nuair a béas an teanga níos láidre sa tír uilig beidh an scéal go dona ar fad má chailltear an Ghaeilge sa Ghaeltacht. Ní dóigh liom go mbeidh sé mar sin, ach go mbeidh an Ghaeilge ag dul chun cinn in aghaidh an lae.
Do bhí ionadh orm ag dul tríd an nGaeltacht nach raibh cuid de na tithe, go mór mhór na tithe feirme, chomh maith agus ab fhéidir leo. Ba cheart tithe cónaithe compórdacha a dhéanamh do na daoine atá sa nGaeltacht agus solas aibhléise agus mar sin de a chur isteach iontu. Baineann sé sin leis na tithe feirme chomh maith. Nuair a bhíos sa Daingean chonacas nach raibh puinn cearca ná lachan ná gé ann agus nuair a d'fhiafráios cad ba chúis leis sin dúradh nach raibh an fothain ann, go raibh sé ro-fhuar agus ró-ghaofar, nach raibh aon chrainn ag fás timpeall na dtithe chun fothain a thabhairt dóibh. Ba mhaith an rud crainn a chur ag fás timpeall na dtithe sin. B'fhéidir nach bhfásfadh a lán acu ach tiúrfadh an méid dfhásfadh dóthan fothna don tigh cónaithe agus do na tithe feirme sin.
Mar adúirt daoine eile ba cheart breis talún a sholáthar timpeall na n-áiteacha beaga atá ann faoi láthair, b'fhéidir páirc eile sa bhliain nó dhá pháirc sa bhliain agus an t-airgead a thabhairt dóibh chun obair mar sin a dhéanamh. Ní bhíonn a lán oibre le déanamh acu iontu ach dá mbeadh an t-airgead acu na feirmeacha beaga a leathnú amach agus a leasú bheadh an scéal i bhfad níos fearr agus bheadh obair thorthúil dá déanamh acu.
Ansin tá an mhóin agus tá monarchain ann leis an obair sin a chur chun cinn. Ach níl na bóithre atá ag dul isteach chuig na portaigh go maith, agus ba cheart feabhas a chur ar an scéim sin i dtreo is go bhféadfadh na daoine go bhfuil an obair sin faoina gcúram dul ar aghaidh leis. B'fhéidir chomh maith go bhféadfadh siad caoire nó cúpla beithíoch a choimeád dá mbeadh an t-airgead acu chun iad a sholáthar dóibh féin. Tá a lán rudaí mar sin is féidir a dhéanamh do mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus ní bheadh gá le [737] caint ná le holagóin. B'fhéidir nach mbeadh an t-airgead ann chun mórán a dhéanamh in aon bhliain ach rud beag a dhéanamh i ndiaidh a chéile do gach tigh sa nGaeltacht. Is breá an rud scéimeanna d'fheiscint ach má dhéanaimid rud éigin do gach tigh nó rud a thaispeáint dóibh ar féidir leo féin é a dhéanamh, agus go bhfuil an t-airgead ann chuige, ansin beidh dul chun cinn againn, gan dabht, sa nGaeltacht agus tiocfaidh misneach do na daoine nuair a chífidh siad go bhfuilimid i ndáiríre fúthu.
Tá an cheist seo an-tábhachtach ar fad agus, le cúnamh Dé, nuair a beimid ag caint sa Tigh seo arís, beidh sampla níos fearr againn féin do mhuintir na tíre agus níos mó Gaeilge á húsáid againn. Nuair a thaispeánfaimid an sampla sin dóibh tiocfaidh breis misnigh do na daoine féin, go mór mór nuair a chífidh siad go bhfuilimid ag déanamh rud éigin sna tithe dóibh chun iad a dhéanamh níos fearr agus chun roinnt a sholáthar dóibh féin, na cearca, na caoire, na beithígh, an mhóin, agus rudaí eile. Tá saibhreas áirithe sa nGaeltacht — iascaireacht, agus rudaí mar sin — agus is féidir airgead a dhéanamh astu. Má theipimid an uair seo, is dóigh liom nach mbeidh aoinne sásta sa deireadh. Bíonn an iomad cainte ann mar gheall ar an nGaeltacht agus ní bhíonn dóthain oibre á dhéanamh chun cabhair a thabhairt don Ghaeltacht.
Donnchadh Ó Briain: Tá tamall caite againn anois ag plé an Bhille seo. Níl aon rud is mó a chuireann masmas orm ná na daoine a eiríonn anso, Gaeilgeoirí maithe, a thosnaíonn le cúpla focal Gaeilge agus ansan a leanann i mBéarla. Nach bhféadfaimis bheith i ndáiríre agus leanúint inár dteanga féin an t-aon uair amháin atá díospóireacht Ghaeilge againn anso? Ni thógaim ar na daoine atá ar bheagán Gaeilge é ach ar na daoine atá anso agus iad ag ligint orthu gur Gaeilgeoirí ó dhúchas iad. Chuirfeadh sé masmas ar aoinne. Ba cheart éirí as mura bhfuilimid i ndáiríre.
Táimid i bhfad ag feitheamh leis an mBille seo. Gealladh dúinn é dhá bhliain ó shoin. Cé an fáth go raibh an moill go léir leis? Bhí gléas ann cheana [738] i nOifig na Gaeltachta, faoi stiúradh an Teachta Ó Loingsigh, nuair bhí sé ina Rúnaí Parlaiminte, agus na rudaí a bhí beartaithe aige a dhéanamh bhíodar ag teacht chun blátha agus chun cinn go maith. Tá obair oifig Rialtais mall agus tógann sé cuid mhaith aimsire chun na pleananna a chur ag obair.
Do réir dealraimh, an chéad rud a rinne an Rialtas nuair a tháinig siad thar n-ais, ná an Oifig sin a dhúnadh beagnach. Cad ba chúis leis? Cé an fáth nár cuireadh an iarracht sin don Ghaeltacht ar siúl tar éis don Rialtas teacht i réim, gan muintir na Gaeltachta a bheith ag feitheamh dhá, bhliain go dtí gur tugadh an Bille isteach?
Nuair a tugtar an Bille isteach, cad tá ann? Tá sé neamh-chruinn, neamhshoiléir, agus nílimid anois níos eolasaí i dtaobh cad tá beartaithe, mar níor thug an tAire eolas ar bith dúinn.
Teastaíonn uainn a fháil amach cad tá beartaithe a dhéanamh fén mBille seo, don Ghaeltacht, nár deineadh cheana. Tá súil agam ná fágfaidh an tAire dall mé i dtaobh an mhéid sin nuair a bheas sé ag freagairt na díospóireachta.
Ba dhóigh le haoinne a bhí ag éisteacht leis an díospóireacht nár deineadh aon rud roimhe seo ar son na Gaeltachta. Níl sé sin amhlaidh. Deineadh a lán in imeacht na mblian, go mór mhór le 20 bliain anuas. Tá crut níos fearr ar an nGaeltacht agus ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta ná mar bhí nuair a chuireas-sa eolas ar áiteanna áirithe sa nGaeltacht nuair chuas ann le linn m'óige, i gColáiste Gaeilge i dtosach agus ansin ar cuairt ar na daoine. Tá feabhas mór ar phobal na Gaeltachta agus ar an léargas agus ar an aigne atá ag an bpobal i gcoitinne. Tháinig an feabhas sin in imeacht na mbliain. Tá sé bréagach ag aoinne bheith á rá nár deineadh aon rud. Deineadh a lán. Níl aoinne is túisce admhódh é sin ná daoine macánta na Gaeltachta.
Risteárd Ua Maolchatha: Cé dúirt nár deineadh?
Donnchadh Ó Briain: Dúradh é sa Tigh seo inniu agus tá sé á rá i gcónaí anso agus taobh amuigh.
[739]Risteárd Ua Maolchatha: Níor airíos-sa é.
Donnchadh Ó Briain: Ní foláir nó go bhfuil tú bodhar mar sin.
Risteárd Ua Maolchatha: Go raibh maith agat.
Donnchadh Ó Briain: An rud is mó atá ag milleadh an scéil fé láthair ná an imirce. Tá an imirce sin níos measa anois ná mar bhí sí aon uair le mo chuimhneasa. Bhíos i gceantar Gaeltachta le déanai. Ní rabhas sa cheantar sin le 30 blian roimhe sin — Corca Dhuibhne in larthar Chiarraighe. Tá an Ghaeilge go láidir i measc na ndaoine ann, níos láidre anois ná mar bhí. Tá sí á labhairt agus á cleachtadh níos mó ná bhí nuair a chuireas-sa aithne ar an gceantar sin. Ach faraoir tá ná daoine óga ag imteacht go tiubh. Níl sna ceantair sin den chuid is mó ach sean-daoine, daoine meánaosta, athracha agus máithreacha agus roinnt páistí óga. Tá na daoine eile imithe ar fad. Níl siad ar fad imithe thar sáile; níl siad ar fad i Sasana. Tá cuid acu anseo in Eirinn, agus ar ndóigh caithfidh siad imeacht go dtí áit éigin chun obair a fháil. Ní féidir leo ar fad fanacht sa nGaeltacht ach oiread le haon cheantar eile. Geibheann cuid acu postanna maithe mar mhúinteoirí, mar Ghardaí Síochána agus sa Stát-Sheirbhís. Tá scoláireachta ag corrdhuine go dtí an Ollscoil i nGaillimh agus, le cúnamh Dé beidh postanna maithe le fáil acu seo amach annseo. Tá a lán acu imithe thar sáile, ar chuma ar bith, agus tá siad ag imeacht go tiubh fós in ainneoin na ngeallúintí a thug an Rialtas seo dóibh roimh an toghchán mór go gcuirfeadh siad stop leis an imirce.
Níl mé chomh trom-chroíoch agus bhí cuid de na cainteoirí i rith na díospóireachta seo. Tá an Ghaeilge ansin i gcónaí, tá an Ghaeilge go láidir bríomhar i measc na ndaoine agus tá níos mó meas acu ar an teanga anois ná mar bhí 40 bliain ó shoin. Ag an am céanna tá Béarla acu. Rinne mé tagairt don rud seo cheana agus ceapaim nach olc an rud é chor ar bith. Sé an rud céanna é ar thagair an tAthair Peadar dó fadó—an dá airm aigne. Ní haon díobhaíl é go [740] mbeadh Béarla, ná Francis ná aon teanga eile acu comh mhaith leis an nGaeilge.
Dúirt an Teachta Mac Pharthaláin rud atá an-bhunúsach nuair adúirt sé nach mbeadh aon deacracht an teanga a choimeád agus a leathnú dá mbeadh níos mó suime ag na daoine sa nGalltacht san athbheochaint, dá mbeadh níos mó suime ag na daoine i mBaile Átha Cliath, i gCorcaigh, i Luimneach agus in áiteanna eile in aithbheocaint na teangan. Sé an neamh-shuim atá ag cur i gcoinne na hath-bheochana. Ag éisteacht le daoine cheapfá nach bhfuil aon bhochtanas sa tír ach sa nGaeltacht. Ar ndóigh níl sé sin fíor chor ar bith. Tá rudaí comh holc agus comh deacair sa nGalltacht.
Is sa nGaeltacht atá tobar fíor-uisce na Gaeilge. Ná bíodh aon dul amú orainn faoi sin. Sin é fáth an Bhille seo agus sin é fáth na cainte go léir a chualamar faoin dteanga trí na blianta. Tá roinnt ceisteanna agam agus ba mhaith liom dá dtabharfadh an tAire freagra orthu nuair a bhéas sé ag freagairt. Conas a bheidh an scéal mar gheall ar chabhair a thabhairt do na daoine a dtithe a chur suas? Conas a bheidh an scéal i dtaobh scéim na dtrátaí, scéim na dtionscal, scéim an deontais £5? Conas a bheidh an scéal mar gheall ar scoláireachta na nOllscol, an scéim iascaireachta, na scéimeanna foraoiseachta, scéim na n-uachtarlann sa nGaeltacht? Conas atá an scéal mar gheall ar scéimeanna na Roinne Tailte, Bord na Móna, faoi Cheard-Oideachas agus faoi scéimeanna speisialta fostuithe? An bhfuil sé ar aigne ag an Aire go dtiocfaidh an Roinn seo faoi sciathán. Roinne éigin eile nó an bhfuil sé beartaithe aige na rudaí d'fhágaint mar bhí siad go dtí seo? Ba mhaith liom eolas cruinn a bheith agam i dtaobh cad atá beartaithe le haghaidh na nithe sin. An bhfuil aon rud socraithe faoi sin? Ceapaimse go mbeidh an Roinn ag ullmhú ar feadh dhá bhlian sara mbeidh na rudaí sin go léir socraithe. Tá sé soiléir nach bhfuil rud ar bith socraithe go fóill agus mar gheall air sin ba mhaith linn a fháil amach an bhfuil gléas ullmhaithe ag an Aire nó an mbeidh sé [741] ag ullmhú agus ag pleanáil ar feadh dhá bhlian eile?
Tá rud beag eile ar mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh dó. Cá bhfuil tórainn na Fíor-Ghaeltachta, na Gaeltachta agus na breac-Ghaeltachta anois? Chonaic mé rud i gContae Chiarraighe tamaill beag ó shoin a chuir áthas ar mo chroí. Tá na daoine óga ansin ag tabhairt an Ghaeilge thar n-ais arís sna ceantair breac-Ghaeltachta agus tá na hathaireacha agus na máthaireacha ag labhairt Ghaeilge ionas go mbeidh siad i ndon an deontas £5 a fháil. Sa chaoi sin tá an teanga níos láidre i gceantair mar sin ná mar bhí sí 25 blian ó shoin.
Cuireadh an díospóireacht ar athló.
Mr. D. Larkin: asked the Taoiseach if he will state the reasons for the increase last year of nearly £2,000,000 in the income from the investments abroad, shown at item 15 of the Balance of International Payments Statement, when the external holding of the banks, the Central Bank and Government Departments were reduced by a total of over £43,000,000 as shown at items 1, 2 and 3 of the statement.
Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach (Mr. O'Sullivan): An important element in the increase, in 1955 as compared with 1954, in the estimated inflow of profits and interest from abroad included in item 15 of the Balance of International Payments Statement, relates to the income derived from investments in British joint stock companies. I would point out to the Deputy that (a) a very important determinant of the inflow of profits, etc., in respect of the non-publicly held securities is the current rate of dividend distribution by British joint stock companies, (b) the main part of the reduction in the external holdings of Government Departments and of the banks took place in the latter part of the year and (c) short-term interest rates in London were higher in 1955 than in 1954.
[742] It must, of course, be pointed out also that the figures included for this item are at present provisional, and in accordance with normal practice will fall to be revised later when more adequate information becomes available.
Mr. D. Larkin: asked the Taoiseach if he can give details of item 9, “Other Capital Transactions” of the Balance of International Payments Statement for 1954 and 1955, and, if not, whether he will indicate the order of magnitude of the principal constituents of this item.
Mr. O'Sullivan: It is not possible to give the information asked for in respect of the components of item 9, “Other Capital Transactions”, of the Balance of International Payments Statement for 1954 and 1955 without disclosing information which was made available on a confidential basis. The item covers such headings as loans and advances to Irish residents by external insurance and finance companies, capital provided by British companies for Irish associates, changes in the net deposits held by commercial banks on behalf of their extern customers, changes in the amount outstanding in respect of Irish bank acceptances discounted in London, credit extended by foreign suppliers to Irish importers, external subscriptions to new issues by the State and local authorities, adjustments in respect of the valuation of investments, property dealings through external stockbrokers and redemption of land bonds by externs.
Mr. D. Larkin: asked the Taoiseach if he will state the index number of wage rates in 23 industrial occupations at the beginning of 1956.
Mr. O'Sullivan: The index number of wage rates in 23 industrial occupations at the beginning of 1956 (to base 1939=100) was 226.6. This information, as I promised in my reply to a similar question by the Deputy on 7th March, 1956, has already been supplied to him by the Central Statistics Office.
[743]Mrs. O'Carroll: asked the Taoiseach what percentage of arable land was taken as conacre in the years 1953, 1954, 1955.
Mr. O'Sullivan: In the year 1955 the area let for tillage constituted 0.7 per cent., and the area let for grazing 5.6 per cent. of the total area of crops and pasture. Corresponding particulars for 1953 and 1954 are not available.
Mrs. O'Carroll: asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce whether, in view of the fact that the retail price of bacon is adjusted in accordance with the rise and fall in the price of pigs, he will ask the Prices Advisory Body to investigate the question of introducing an arrangement whereby the retail price of meat would be adjusted in accordance with the rise and fall in the price of cattle.
Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Norton): The Prices Advisory Body have examined the question of retail meat prices on a number of occasions. The most recent examination was undertaken last month at my request, and with particular reference to a suggestion that reductions in the prices of cattle and sheep for slaughter were not being passed on to the consumer in retail meat prices.
The body have now submitted their report which is under examination.
Mrs. O'Carroll: asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce whether he has received a recommendation from the Prices Advisory Body as a result of the public inquiry into the increase in the price of newspapers.
Mr. Norton: As a result of the public inquiry into the increase in the price of newspapers, the Prices Advisory Body have recommended to me that no action should be taken in regard to the existing prices. I have accepted this recommendation.
Mrs. O'Carroll: asked the Minister [744] for Industry and Commerce whether he has yet received a report from the Fair Trade Commission in regard to its investigation into the distribution and supply of groceries.
Mr. Norton: I have not yet received this report. The Fair Trade Commission have now informed me that the drafting of the report is in its final stages, but that they cannot yet indicate when it is likely to be submitted to me.
Mrs. O'Carroll: asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce what progress has been made by his Department towards the setting up of a bureau of standards for consumer goods.
Mr. Norton: The question of establishing a bureau of standards for consumer goods is under active examination in my Department. The Deputy will, no doubt, appreciate that the matter is one which requires very careful and detailed consideration, particularly in the light of experience in other countries.
Mr. D. Larkin: asked the Minister for Education if he will state in respect of the Hardiman Trust (a) the total amount expended since its foundation, (b) what itineraries have been paid for out of the trust funds, and (c) the names of the participants in these itineraries.
Minister for Education (General Mulcahy): I propose, with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, to circulate in the Official Report a statement containing the information asked for in this question. The Deputy will understand, in relation to the schedule, that it is not the practice to give the names of officials of the Department or of the local authority, but the appropriate description of the offices in question will be given.
The following is the statement showing in respect of the Hardiman Trust, (a) the total amount expended since its foundation; (b) what itineraries have been paid for out of the trust funds; (c) the participants in these itineraries.
[745] The total of the sums expended from the income of the Hardiman Fund up to the 31st March, 1956, amounted to £1,807 17s. 8d. The projects concerned and the participants were as follows:—
FINANCIAL YEAR 1953-54Visit of the Department's art inspector to Paris to attend the Third International Congress of the International Association of Crafts and the Teaching of Art in Workshop and Factory.
FINANCIAL YEAR 1954-55Visit to Sweden of one inspector of the Department of Education and one teacher of cabinet-making from the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee for two weeks to study modern methods of cabinet and furniture-making and apprenticeship as applicable to these trades.
Visit to Germany of one inspector of the Department of Education and one teacher of building from the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee for two weeks to study building trades' methods and apprenticeship as applied to these trades.
Visit to Holland of two inspectors of the Department of Education for two weeks to study the systems and methods of apprenticeship training in that country.
Attendance of a domestic science teacher from the City of Cork Vocational Education Committee at a three months' course in institutional and household management at an institution in London.
A summer course of two weeks' duration at St. Catherine's Training College of Domestic Science, Dublin, in advanced dressmaking for 24 selected teachers of domestic science given by [746] Miss Jean G. Beveridge, an expert instructor from Dundee, Scotland.
Visit of inspector of the Department of Education to Cambridge to attend a conference on “Rural Reconstruction in Europe” under the auspices of the Association of European Folk High Schools.
FINANCIAL YEAR 1955-56Visit to Sweden of the Department of Education's art inspector, the director of the National College of Art and a crafts teacher from Waterford City Vocational Education Committee, for two weeks, to study craftwork and design in relation to industry.
Visit of one inspector of the Department of Education and the chief executive officers of two vocational education committees to Scandinavia for three weeks, to study modern developments in adult education and the organisation of suitable courses therein. Advantage was taken of a special invitation to a Seminar in Adult Education being conducted in Denmark, Norway and Sweden under the auspices of U.N.E.S.C.O., by which body maintenance and travelling expenses of the delegates within Scandinavia were paid.
SCHEMES OF EDUCATION AND SCHOOL ORGANISATION
Visit of chief executive officers of three vocational education committees to Scotland for two weeks, to study schemes of education and the organisation of schools in that country.
A summer course of two weeks' duration at St. Catherine's Training College of Domestic Science, Dublin, in advanced dressmaking for 28 selected teachers of domestic science by an expert instructor from Scotland (Miss Ewing, Kirkealdy), assisted by a teacher from St. Catherine's College. The course was similar to that conducted in the college the previous year under the Hardiman Bequest.
A course for 30 teachers of commerce given by specialist instructors in retail distribution in Dublin in conjunction with the R.G.D.A.T.A. Summer School 1955. The instructors included two experts from the London School of Economics, Mr. Fawthorpe (retail distribution) and Mr. Krans (textiles).
Visit to Paris by an inspector of the Department of Education to study the national organisation of vocational guidance for young persons.
The Deputy will understand that it is not the practice to give the names of officers of the Department or of local authorities.
Mrs. O'Carroll: asked the Minister for Justice if he will make a statement in regard to the issue of shirts and uniforms to prison officials.
Minister for Justice (Mr. Everett): Prison officers are issued with uniforms but must provide shirts at their own expense.
Mrs. O'Carroll: Is it a fact that, in reply to a similar question last July, the Minister told me that he was meeting the officials concerned to make a settlement on this question in regard to shirts and uniforms? Would he say what happened at that interview?
Mr. Everett: Officials of the Department did meet representatives of the officials concerned and they did reach agreement with regard to open-neck collars. They have not been able, however, to agree on the matter of free shirts because, as there are 7,000 uniformed officials, we could be involved in a cost up to £25,000, as other officials would claim similar concessions.
Mrs. O'Carroll: asked the Minister for Justice if he will state the number of (a) warders and officials, and (b) prisoners, in Portlaoighise prison.
Mr. Everett: The required information is as follows: (a) 52; (b) 76.
[748]Mrs. O'Carroll: asked the Minister for Justice if he is aware that the punishment meted to prisoners in Portlaoighise prison for the infringement of rules is out of all proportion to the nature of such infringements, and, if so, if he will make a statement in the matter.
Mr. Everett: No punishment was imposed upon any prisoner in Portlaoighise prison during the period of 12 months ended the 31st March last for a mere infringement of rules. All prisoners punished were guilty of serious misconduct such as violence to officers, using threatening and obscene language, refusing to carry out orders and refusing to work. The offenders in the majority of cases were punished by being deprived of privileges, such as recreation and smoking, for short periods.
Mrs. O'Carroll: Is the Minister aware that it has been reported from Portlaoighise that a prisoner was given bread and water for one week for wearing an extra waistcoat on a cold morning? Could that be possible, or did it happen?
Mr. Everett: I have no information about that. The only point I would mention is that there is a visiting committee which will receive any complaints from prisoners. One prisoner did attack a warder and another created a disturbance at Mass.
Mrs. O'Carroll: No mention of the waistcoat incident?
Mrs. O'Carroll: asked the Minister for Justice if he will consider abolishing the present regulation whereby prisoners in Portlaoighise are compelled to do hard manual labour for some time in the early morning before receiving any food.
Mr. Everett: The tasks which the prisoners are required to perform before breakfast are such as are similarly performed in most farms and homesteads. There is no such thing as hard manual labour in prisons nowadays and certainly none before breakfast.
[749]Mrs. O'Carroll: asked the Minister for Agriculture what percentage of the total daily milk consumption in the Dublin area is (a) tuberculin tested and pasteurised, (b) tuberculin tested, (c) pasteurised, and (d) neither pasteurised nor tuberculin tested.
Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Dillon): The information requested by the Deputy in regard to tuberculin tested milk, as such, is not available in my Department but information is available in regard to (1) highest grade milk (all of which is, of course, the produce of tuberculin tested cows but is not pasteurised); (2) pasteurised milk (some of which may possibly be from tuberculin tested cows), and (3) other milk (which is not pasteurised but some of which may also be from tuberculin tested cows). In the year 1955, 4.56 per cent. of the total daily milk consumption in the City and County of Dublin and the Urban District of Bray consisted of highest grade milk; 86.04 per cent. was pasteurised milk and the balance of 9.40 per cent. was unpasteurised milk other than highest grade.
Mrs. O'Carroll: asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs whether he is aware that there is widespread dissatisfaction because of the shoddy and defective binding of the current issue of the telephone directory, and, if so, if he will take steps to ensure that the next issue and subsequent issues will be bound in such a manner as to withstand reasonable usage without falling to pieces.
Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Keyes): Some complaints, relatively small in number, have been received about the binding of the current issue of the directory. Replacement copies are immediately supplied to the subscribers concerned in all such cases. The question of improving the binding of future issues has already been referred to the Stationery Office which is responsible for the production of the directory.
Mrs. O'Carroll: I would appreciate [750] it if the Minister would arrange to have replacements made in the rooms of this House.
Messrs. McGrath: and J. Lynch asked the Minister for Finance whether he is aware that the pensions of Government servants, who have received no increase in the past nine years, have, because of rising prices, lost much of their value, and, if so, whether, in view of the fact that the removal of the consequent long-continued hardships is long overdue, he will expedite the preparation of proposals to increase the pensions of such persons.
Minister for Finance (Mr. Sweetman): Under the statutes governing the superannuation of Government servants generally, pension is calculated on the basis of pay and years of reckonable service on retirement and a pension so calculated is not subject to increase because of rising prices subsequent to retirement. As indicated, however, in my reply to a parliamentary question on 23rd November, 1955—and more recently to certain representative bodies of Service pensioners — I have the matter under consideration in connection with my forthcoming Budget but that does not mean, of course, that I will find it possible to make provision for any pension increases.
Mr. McGrath: Would the Minister bear in mind the statement made by the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach on 30th October, 1947, when they dealt with that matter?
Mr. Norton: And we subsequently increased the pensions.
Mr. Sweetman: I shall also bear in mind that it was the inter-Party Government, by the Act of 1950, subsequent to those statements, that increased those pensions at that time thereby redeeming the promises made by the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste.
Mr. Norton: It must be awkward asking other people to do what you would not do yourself.
Donnchadh Ó Briain: To fulfil your own promises?
[751]Mr. McGrath: Justice requires that it should be done whatever the cost.
Mr. James Tully: There was no justice when you were in, so?
Mr. Dillon: You have been living for 20 years in sin, if that is so.
Mrs. O'Carroll: asked the Minister for Finance if he will state (a) the number of applications for employment which were received by the Totalisator Board in 1953, 1954, 1955, and to date in 1956, (b) the number of such applications which were from (i) persons already gainfully employed, and (ii) unemployed persons, and (c) the number of successful applicants in each category.
Mrs. O'Carroll: asked the Minister for Finance if he will state the number of persons employed by the Totalisator Board who are (a) in full-time employment in any other capacity, (b) in other part-time employment, (c) civil servants, (d) teachers, and (e) in the full-time employment of the board.
Mr. Sweetman: With the concurrence of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 17 and 18 together.
The Racing Board which operates the totalisators by licence under the Totalisator Act, 1929, and employs the necessary staff is a statutory body set up in accordance with the provisions of the Racing Board and Racecourses Act, 1945. The Minister for Finance has no function in regard to the matters mentioned in the Deputy's questions.
Mr. Kyne: asked the Minister for Local Government whether he has informed the Waterford Corporation that the rate of interest on borrowings from the Local Loans Fund has been increased from 5¼ per cent. to 6 per cent., and, if so, if he will make a statement in the matter.
Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government (Mr. Spring): The answer to the first part [752] of the question is in the negative. The second part does not therefore arise.
Mr. Kyne: Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether he is aware that rumours of such an increase have been circulated?
An Ceann Comhairle: That seems to be a separate question.
Mr. Spring: A statement appeared in the Irish Press on the 18th April, 1956, and possibly elsewhere, that the finance officer of Waterford Corporation had said that the Government had informed him that the new interest rate for borrowings from the Local Loans Fund had been increased by ¾ per cent., from 5¼ to 6 per cent. The finance officer, when contacted by phone early on the morning of the 18th April, said that he had been misquoted and that he would try to have the statement corrected.
Mr. D. Larkin: asked the Minister for Health if he will arrange for health authorities to display prominently in appropriate places a summary of the services available under the Health Act, and if he will have published an explanatory leaflet on the Act.
Minister for Health (Mr. O'Higgins): Arrangements for publicity are primarily a matter for each health authority. I do not think that, in general, it would be practicable to arrange for an adequate summary of the services to be displayed as suggested but I am sending to each health authority drafts of two detailed leaflets which I have prepared, in which they will insert certain particulars appropriate to local conditions, for issue by them to interested persons. When these leaflets are available to the general medical practitioners in each area, through whom in most cases patients will be referred for services, to midwives, to home assistance officers, to hospital almoners, etc., and when they can be obtained on demand from health authority offices, I feel that very wide publicity will be achieved.
[753]Donnchadh Ó Briain: Sarar cuireadh an díospóireacht ar athló le haghaidh na gceisteanna, bhíos ag tagairt don bhreac-Ghaeltacht. Sé a theastaigh uaim a chur faoi bhráid an Aire ná go bhfuil áiteanna ar fud na tíre a n-áirítear mar breac-Ghaeltacht anois iad agus gur cóir go ndéanfaí iad a scrúdú arís nuair a bhéas an Aireacht nua seo ag obair chun a fháil amach an bhfuil feabhas tagtha orthu, an bhfuil níos mó cainteoirí Gaeilge iontu, níos mó teaghlaigh ina labhartar an Ghaeilge anois ná mar bhí roinnt bhliain ó shoin.
Tá cás im aigne agam i gCorca Dhuibhne agus chuala mé trácht ar chás eile mar gheall ar pharóiste ina bhfuil athrú tagtha ar an scéal, sé sin, feabhas i labhairt na Gaeilge. Is gné den scéal gur cóir an Ghaeltacht d'athscrúdú go mion agus go tuisceanach i dtreo is go mbeadh ar ár gcumas a thuiscint i gceart na faidhbeanna ba chóir a réiteach.
Is dócha go bhfuil roinnt mhaith eolais sna Ranna Stáit faoin gceist seo. Gan aon dabht, tá mé cinnte go bhfuil daoine sna Ranna Stáit a thuigeann an cheist seo agus gur féidir í a scrúdú agus a mheas agus tuarascáil a thabhairt uirthi. Braitheann mórán d'obair na hAireachta nua seo ar dhearcadh an Rialtais fé athbheochaint na Gaeilge agus leas na Gaeltachta. Níl mé ró-shásta fé dheareadh an Rialtais seo maidir le hathbheochaint na Gaeilge. Tá beirt Airí i measc Airí an Rialtais seo go bhfuil togha na Gaeilge acu. Is cainteoir ó dúchas duine acu ach níor chualamar riamh ag labhairt na Gaeilge é agus tá faitíos orm nach bhfuil aon tsuim aige inti.
Bhí athás orm inniu nuair a chuala mé gurb é an tAire Oideachais a bhéas i mbun na Gaeltachta, bíodh agus nach bhfuilim den tuairim gur cóir go mbeadh Aire amháin i mbun dhá Aireacht. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil sé i ndon an dhá thráigh do fhreastal. Ba chóir ná beadh air ach bheith i mbun cúraim amháin. Nílim ar an aigne chéanna leis an Aire Oideachais faoi mhórán rudaí ach má tá aon Aire sa Rialtas seo a chreidim atá i ndáiríre [754] faoi athbheochaint na Gaeilge sé an tAire Oideachais é agus bhí sé mar sin i rith a shaoil. Im thuairimse do thréig sé cuspóirí eile a bhí againn go léir ach lean sé dílis ar bhóthar athbheochana na Gaeilge. Ní dóibh liom gur féidir fear níos oiriúnaí don obair seo ná é d'fháil. Tá obair an-throm roimhe má éirionn leis rud éigin a dhéanamh don Ghaeltacht gur theip orainn a dhéanamh go dtí an lá atá inniu ann.
Ba chóir ná beadh ach Aireacht amháin faoina chúram gan a bheith ag iarraidh air dhá thráig do fhreastal. Bíodh sin mar atá, braitheann a lán ar léargas agus dearcadh an Rialtais faoi athbheochaint na Gaeilge. Déarfainn go bhfuilimíd go léir ar aon-aigne sa Tigh seo mar gheall air sin ach uaireanta — go háirithe nuair a cuimhním ar óráidí a thugann Teachtaí fé leith sa Tigh seo ó bhliain go bliain nuair a bhíos an Meastachán le haghaidh na Roinne Oideachais á phlé—bíonn dabht agam in aigne. Braitheann mórán freisin ar an méid airgid a bheidh le caitheamh ag an Aire. Níl aon tsoláthar déanta chuige sin i mbliana i Leabhair na Meastachán, chomh fada agus dob fhéidir liom á dhéanamh amach. Níl aon tsoláthar déanta, ach is dócha gur féidir é sin do leigheas trí Meastacháin Fhorlíontacha a thabhairt isteach. Braitheann mórán ar airgead. Níl an sean-fhocal fíor chomh fada is théann an Gaeltacht, an sean-fhocal adeireann: Ní deireadh gach soiscéil an tairgead. Tá spioraid agus náisiúntacht ann freisin ach beidh gá leis an airgead chun an Roinn seo do choimeád ag obair agus chun an beartas a cheapfas an tAire a thabhairt chun críche.
Tá sé riachtanach go mbeidh an tAire Airgeadais báidhiúil agus sásta chun cabhair do thabhairt go fial do pé iarratais a gheobhaidh sé ón Aireacht nua seo agus ón Aire seo. Tá súil agam go bhfuil an tAire Airgeadais go tuisceanach, fábharach agus báidhiúil leis an obair a bhéas á déanamh ag a chomh-Aire san Aireacht nua seo.
Anois, bhíos ag tagairt don bhreac-Ghaeltacht. Tá pócaí áirithe ar fuaid na tíre ina maireann an Ghaeilge fós agus níor mhór cúram fé leith a dhéanamh de na háiteanna sin. B'fhéidir nach bhfuil aon ceist ghéilleagrach ag cur isteach ro-mhór ar na [755] ceantair bheaga iargúlta sin. An pobal atá iontu tá siad chomh maith agus atá siad in aon chuid eile den tír. Sé an rud is mó a bhfuil gá leis, b'fhéidir, go ndíreofaí suim na gCoistí Gairm-Oideachais orthu agus go gcuirfí timire fé leith i bhfeighil na bparóistí i slí is go bhféadfaí suim na ndaoine d'athmhúscailt i gcleachtadh na Gaeilge. Do bheadh sé fuirist go leor é sin a dhéanamh i gcuid mhaith den tír. Ba chóir an cheist sin do scrúdú leis.
Bheadh a lán rudaí eile le rá ag duine ach ba mhaith liom a chloisint ón Aire an bhfuil polasaí nua beartaithe aige féin agus ag an Rialtas maidir leis an nGaeilge agus cathain a bheidh eolas againn cad iad na pleananna nua atá beartaithe ag an Rialtas 's ag an Aireacht nua do chur i ngníomh. Nílimid soiléir i dtaobh an scéil fé láthair. Níl ráiteas an Aire soiléir agus níor dhein an Bille an scéal do shoiléiriú dhúinn ach oiread.
Chomh fada is a théann an Bille agus chomh fada is a théann an méid eolais a thug an tAire dúinn cuirimid fáilte roimhe. Guidhimid rath ó Dhia ar shaothar na hAireachta nua chun leasa na Gaeilge agus leasa na hÉireann agus tá súil agam féin go mbeidh rath ar obair na Roinne. Aon chabhair is féidir linn a thabhairt don Roinn nua seo maidir le feabhas a chur ar scéal na Gaeilge is cúrsaí na Gaeltachta beidh an chabhair sin le fáil uainn go fial.
Captain Giles: If one has not a neck one will get nowhere nowadays. It might seem an intrusion for one who does not speak the language to get up and take part in the debate on this Bill, but I have every right to do so because, at the time I should be learning the language, I was doing more dangerous work for this country and I had not the time like the people at present to learn the language.
Donnchadh Ó Briain: People who were doing as dangerous work as the Deputy were learning the language as well.
Captain Giles: They did well out of it.
Donnchadh Ó Briain: It was not to [756] do well out of it they did it. That is damn nonsense.
Captain Giles: The Deputy is a man who has his heart and soul in the preservation of the language but shame on Fianna Fáil who for 20 years in public life did nothing for the Gaeltacht except to scatter it.
Donnchadh Ó Briain: An gcloiseann an tAire é sin?
Captain Giles: They tried to kill the language and now they come along and pay their annual lip service to it. It is not the men who speak Irish but those who are imbued with the Irish way of life who will revive the language. We have too much lip service of that kind and it is time we stopped it. It is time we got down to brass tacks and did something for the Gaeltacht and it will take more than “kid glove” methods to do it. I hope the House will make a real and determined effort to save the Gaeltacht. The preservation of the Gaeltacht should be everything as far as the Irish nation is concerned. There can be no question about that.
I believe that no man or woman should be allowed out of the Gaeltacht if we can keep the people there but I do not believe in keeping them there by such palliatives as the £4 or £5 grants for people speaking the language. People were sent to my constituency. I was speaking to some of them and they told me they were paid for speaking the language. They sent a child to watch and tell them when they saw the inspector coming down lest they might be speaking English when he arrived. That is what was going on. It is hard to see the type of mentality behind that attitude.
We should open a way of life for the people of the Gaeltacht. There is no other way out of the problem. I believe in good, honest work for them. We ought to open up industries. There are industries there for them such as the fishing industry, embracing kelp and carrageen moss. There are also spinning and knitting. There is no earthly reason why we cannot open up these things in a big way and stop the people from trekking across the water to England.
[757] We have done nothing for the preservation of the Gaeltacht. I have been 20 years listening to the same lip service being paid to the cause annually with nothing being done. Fianna Fáil did the most foul thing. They began to take families from Connemara and send them to Meath. They sent about 30 families into the heart of the Pale so that they could learn the English language and forget Irish. There is little Irish spoken there to-day. If those 20 or 30 families were left in the Gaeltacht and given a way of life, we would have done something for Irish.
We did not do that but we did something worse. Many of those people told me that they had golden hopes, when they came to Royal Meath, to learn good English and go to England to earn their living. Was that not a poor state of affairs after the tens of thousands of pounds spent on this colonisation? Fianna Fáil should bow their heads in shame and give up this spluttering of the language here.
Hope is nearly abandoned as far as the revival of the Irish language is concerned. People who believed in the revival have got contempt for the language because the majority of the people are learning the language for nothing else but to get a soft job. There are too many soft jobs because of the Irish language and that is what is killing Irish and its preservation. What I say cannot be disputed. It is a fact but people are too cowardly to say those things. They are too afraid to say them. Nothing has been done for the preservation of the Irish language.
What is wanted is a man of the type of Douglas Hyde, a man possessing a heart, a character and convictions, a man whose soul is wrapped up in the language. Such a man should be given a free hand. Then something would be done. There is nothing of use which does not come from the spirit. I should love to see this country a Gaelic-speaking nation and I should like to see the youth of the country speak the language in spite of the people who condemn them for speaking it.
Why did we get our freedom? We [758] got it in order to have our own distinctive way of life, our own language. The Germans, the British and the Belgians have their own language. We are free but the Savon tongue has overpowered us. As a young fellow I read in the history books what the British did in Leinster and the Pale. Any child who dared to speak a word of Irish had something tied round his neck and, every time he spoke a word of Irish, a notch was made in it and a good strapping administered at the end of the day. We should throw that back in the face of the British. We should face up to our responsibilities and stand for an independent Irish nation. Let us go forward and preserve that small citadel of the Irish language we have in Ireland.
Let the rest of the nation be satisfied to spend money on the preservation of the Gaeltacht. I do not want to hear lip service or to see people coming in here showing off their knowledge of Irish and never speaking the language for another 12 months. Let them speak it outside, at the street corners, in the fairs. Those are the places where we want to hear the Irish language spoken. We cannot ignore the fact that all of the people here who are speaking Irish have got good soft jobs in this country. You could pick every one of them out.
An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy should now come to the provisions of the Bill.
Captain Giles: This Bill is brought in for the purpose of benefiting the Gaeltacht. The only way you can do that is to keep the people there by every feasible means, by giving them work and establishing industries. I am prepared to see money spent even lavishly for this purpose. The rest of the country owes that to the Gaeltacht, to the people who were sent “to hell or to Connaught” in years gone by. They have had handed down to them the true Irish tradition and any man who speaks to them knows they are sincere. God be with the old days when Deputy Josie Mongan spoke here in the Gaelic tongue. He could raise the hearts and minds of everyone who listened to him. [759] Even though we did not know what he was saying, he was an inspiration to us because of his sincerity. It is not like the gibberish and the claptrap we have listened to to-day, with those speaking looking up at the public gallery and at the Press gallery to see if the pencils were working to give them publicity in the next day's paper.
This is the first Minister who has made the attempt to solve this problem in a realistic way. Let us hope his efforts will result in the permanent preservation of the Gaeltacht. If any progress is to be made we must consider seriously the question of industries. As regards fishing, this industry has almost been abandoned in the West of Ireland. The revival of the fishing industry on a large scale and the reorganisation of the industry in respect of the sale of fish, would do an enormous amount of good, not only giving work to the people in the Gaeltacht but bringing back Irish speakers who have found it necessary to earn a livelihood elsewhere.
The West of Ireland is a hard place to work and unfortunately most of the people there must go to England to earn a few pounds to put them over the winter months. This country is rich enough to be able to expend a vast amount of money to preserve that little citadel of Irish nationalism. Perhaps we could have been very happy as an English-speaking nation and could have stayed in the Commonwealth and got many benefits from it but that is not the way of life we wanted and that is not the way of life our ancestors wanted. They took the hard road and it is a shame that after all their efforts we have a dwindling Gaeltacht which will disappear altogether in the next ten years unless something almost superhuman is done. We cannot save the Gaeltacht unless someone is put fully in charge of it with freedom and with plenty of money to disburse at his discretion.
We must eliminate shoneenism from this country because it is rampant. However, I would not blame the youth of our country for being shoneens to-day because they see so much corruption and job-hunting around [760] them. It paid some people well to learn the language but we want people to learn the language for its own sake and for the love of the country. The difficulty is that we are too narrow-minded and too concerned with rotten politics, too fond of job-hunting, so that we have become almost a depraved nation. The first thing we must do to remedy matters is to stop giving sops to those in need. I do not believe in £5 grants. The giving of such grants is degrading and is mindful of what Britain did here in the days gone by. I want to see people getting work, engaging in fishing on the Irish seas, gathering in the carrageen, kelp and so on, weaving and spinning as they did long ago. There are plenty of markets for them in this connection if they want to open them up. The home market could keep these people employed continuously, year in, year out Let us as soon as possible reach the stage when we can say that no man need leave the Gaeltacht for want of work.
The Minister has laid the foundation and it is up to us to proceed with the work. If we had one man in Ireland of the Douglas Hyde type our salvation would be at hand. In that way we would retrieve the national spirit we had in days gone by when men would do or die to hold on to their traditions, whereas now their principal aim is to get what they can as easily as they can.
Cormac Ua Breisleán: Is mian liom cupla focal a rá ar an mBille seo. Tá súil agam go rachaidh sé chun sochair don Ghaeltacht. Nílim ar aon-intinn i dtaobh gach rud a dúirt an Teachta Giles ach tá áthas orm gur tháinig sé isteach chun labhairt ar an mBille seo. Cé nach n-aontaím le mórán adúirt sé taispeánann sé go bhfuil suim aige sa cheist agus ba mhaith an rud dá dtagadh na Teachtaí uilig isteach le cupla focal a rá ar an ábhar seo.
Tugann an Bille seo Aire speisialta don Ghaeltacht. Tá cuid de na Teachtaí den tuairim nach bhfuil an Bille seo chun mórán difríochta a dhéanamh ach sílim nach ndéanfaidh sé dochar ar bith agus b'fhéidir go mbeidh an scéal níos fearr má chuireann an tAire nua an tsuim cheart sa Ghaeltacht.
[761] Tá fhios againn uilig gur ceist náisiúnta ceist na Gaeltachta agus go gcaithfimid na rudaí a dhéanamh do mhuintir na Gaeltachta nach féidir leo a dhéanamh dóibh féin. Níl sé fíor a rá nach ndearnadh mórán don Ghaeltacht ó cuireadh an Stát ar bun. Cuireadh go leor scéimeanna ar bun chun iarracht a dhéanamh an Ghaeltacht a shábháil agus murach obair a rinneadh i rith na mblianta sin is cinnte nach mbeadh Gaeltacht ar bith le sábháil an lá atá inniu ann. Rinneadh méadú ar an gcabhair a thug an Rialtas ó bhlian go blian agus tá sin le feiceáil go soiléir i gContae Mhuigheo, i nGaillimh agus i gCiarraighe.
Dúirt Teachta nach raibh na tithe sa Ghaeltacht chomh maith agus ba cheart dóibh a bheith. Ba mhaith liom dá dtiocfaidh an Teachta sin — sílim gurb é an Teachta Mac Cárrthaigh a labhair — go dtí Gaeltacht Thír Chonaill. Tá tithe ansin a cuireadh suas fá scéim Tithe na Gaeltachta chomh maith agus gheobhaidh tú in áit ar bith eile in Éirinn. Tá sé ag cuidiú go mór le daoine a bhí ina gcónaí leis na céadta blian sna botháin. Anois tá solas aibhléise sa mhór-chuid de na tithe. Is feabhas mór é sin. Bíonn saol na ndaoine níos fearr ná mar bhí sé.
Tá an imirce ar siúl inniu agus tá sí chomh mór agus níos mó ná mar bhí in am ar bith le 100 blian. Is mór an truaigh é. Tar éis an méid a rinneadh don Ghaeltacht, is mór an truaigh go gcaithfidh an t-aos óg, agus na seandaoine uaireanta, imeacht as an tír agus obair fháil in Albain agus i Sasana. Bhí mise thall in Albain cúpla seachtain ó shoin, i gCathair Glasgow. Bhí mé ag cruinniú cuimhneacháin ar Sheachtain na Cásca, 1916. Sa halla sin bhí níos mó Gaeilge á labhairt ná bheadh i halla i mBaile Átha Cliath nó aon bhaile mór ar fud na 26 contaethe. Bhí cainteoirí ó dhúchas as Muigheo agus Tír Chonaill agus na contaethe eile ansin. Bhí mé ag smaoiniú gur mór an truaigh é sin, go bhfuil an scéal mar atá sé, go bhfuil cainteoirí ó dhúchas thall i Glasgow, Coventry agus na bailte eile ar fud na Sasana in áit bheith anseo sa bhaile ag éisteacht liomsa, nó le Teachta ar bith eile, ag caint ar Sheachtain na Cásca, 1916. Is [762] mór an truaigh nach bhfuilimid i ndon scéim níos fearr a cheapadh chun an t-aos óg a choimeád sa bhaile, go gcaithfidh siad imeacht gach aon lá.
Bhí an Teachta Giles ag caint faoi mar nár theastaigh ó mhuintir na Gaeltachta ach “soft jobs.” Dá mbeadh sé sa halla sin i Glasgow agus 500 de chainteoirí ó dhúchas ag éisteacht liomsa, thuigfeadh sé nach “soft jobs” ar bith atá acu ná atá ag teastáil uathu. B'fhéidir, dá mbeidis ag labhairt Bhéarla go mbeadh rud éigin déanta chun iad a choinneáil sa bhaile.
Tá eolas maith ag an Aire, eolas chomh maith is atá agam féin, ar cheist na Gaeltachta agus cad tá de dhíth chun an Ghaeltacht a leathnú agus a dhéanamh láidir agus an t-aos óg a choinneáil sa bhaile. Ní mór daoine a chur ag obair sa Ghaeltacht. Tá tionscail bunaithe anois le 20 blian. Sé an rud atá cearr, mo bharúil, gurb iad na cailíní atá ag obair sna tionscail sin. Ba mhaith an rud é tionscail a chur ar bun a bhéarfaidh obair do na buachaillí óga. Sa dóigh sin, d'fhanfadh na buachaillí óga sa bhaile agus b'fhéidir go bpósfadh siad ann. Anois, téann na buachaillí go Sasana agus pósann siad ansin agus fanann siad ansin. Sa tsean-am thagadh na daoine abhaile go Tír Chonaill nó Ciarraighe agus phósadh siad ansin agus ní raibh an scéal chomh h-olc. Anois fanann na buachaillí in Albain nó i Sasana agus pósann siad ansin. Ba cheart don Aire é sin a choinneáil ina intinn, gur rud é ba cheart dó a dhéanamh obair a thabhairt do na buachaillí óga agus iad a choinneáil sa bhaile.
Tig linn feabhas a chur ar an Ghaeltacht le méadú mór a dhéanamh ar thionscail na Gaeltachta. Cuidiú mór don Ghaeltacht a bheadh ann dá mbeadh an tAire ábalta deontais a thabhairt le haghaidh tithe agus gach aon chabhair a thabhairt i dtreo is go mbeadh níos mó daoine á gcoimeád sa bhaile.
Is féidir an iascaireacht a mhéadú ar an chósta go léir. Ba mhaith liom a iarraidh ar an Aire gan na báid bheaga a chur amach as an iascaireacht. Tá na báid bheaga ag déanamh na hiascaireachta leis na blianta. Tá na tráiléirí móra ag teacht isteach agus ag [763] déanamh dochair mhóir do sna bádóirí bochta. Iarraim ar an Aire smaoiniú air sin agus gan dochar a dhéanamh do na báid bheaga.
Chuir an Rialtas deireannach tionscal maith ar bun i bparóiste Gleneely, scéim na dtrátaí. Tá an scéim sin ag cuidiú go mór leis na daoine. Tá mé den bharúil go dtiocfadh leis an Aire an tionscal sin a leathnú ar fud na Gaeltachta. Má tá an scéim sin tábhachtach i ndúiche amháin bheadh sé chomh tábhachtach céanna i nGaoth Dobhair, sna Rosa, i nGleann Cholmcille agus sna paróistí Gaeltachta eile ar fud an chontae.
Téann an t-aos óg amach. Tá fhios ag an Aire nach bhfuil an uimhir chéanna páistí ar na scoltacha agus a bhí blianta ó shoin.
Má leanánn an cás mar sin ní bheidh aon páistí ann chun freastal ar na scoileanna agus ní bheidh aon ghá leis na múinteoirí. Deich mbliana ó shoin bhíomar ag smaoineamh ar scoileanna nua a thógaint ach anois, ós rud é nach bhfuil na páistí ann chun freastal orthu níl aon ghá leo. Is mór an truaigh é sin agus is comhartha é go gcaithfidh an tAire agus an Rialtas rud éigin a dhéanamh chun stop a chur leis an imirce. Mura stopfaidh an imirce ní bheidh gá le scoil ar bith sa dúthaigh sin. Dúirt Teachtaí anseo go mba cheart an Roinn nua seo agus na hoifigí a bhaineas leis a chur suas i nGaillimh. Is é mo thuairim go mba cheart na hoifigí seo a bheith i dTír Chonaill.
Risteárd Ua Maolchatha: Cad é an áit i dTír Chonaill?
Cormac Ua Breisleán: Is i dTír Chonaill atá an Ghaeltacht is fairsinge agus is ansin a rinneadh an iarracht is mó chun an teanga a choinneáil beo. Tá sé le hais na Sé Conntaethe agus rinneadh a lán oibre sna Sé Conntaethe chun an teanga a athbheochaint. Tá an Ghaelige i bhfad níos láidre sna Sé Conntaethe ná mar atá sí i nDeisceart na tíre. Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghlacadh faoin deontas a cuireadh ar fáil d'aisteoirí Ghaoth Dobhair chun halla a chur suas. Tá obair bhreá dhá déanamh ag na haisteoirí sin i mBaile Cliath i mBéal Feirste [764] agus in áiteanna eile. Tá siad ag déanamh obair bhreá ar son cultuir na Gaeltachta. Is maith an rud go bhfuair siad an deontas sin agus tá súil agam go gcuirfidh siad suas an halla seo gan mórán moille.
Do réir mo thuairime tá dualgas ar an Aire agus ar an Roinn dul go dtí an Ghaeltacht chun mion-eolas a fháil ar na rudaí atá ag teastáil ó na daoine ansin. Bheadh fáilte mhór roimh an Aire sa dúthaigh sin. Mar focal scoir tá súil agam go mbeidh oifigí na Roinne seo i dTír Chonaill.
Risteárd Ua Maolchatha: Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghlacadh leis na cainteoirí uile a labhair anseo inniu ar an mBille seo. Tá fhios go maith agam go bhfuil deacrachtaí in ár mbealach sa rud seo agus tá fhios agam go raibh cuid de na Teachtaí míshásta nuair nach raibh eolas níos cruinne le cur ar fáil dóibh. D'fhiafraigh an Teachta Ó Briain cén sort polasaí a bhí ag an Roinn i dtaobh na ceiste seo nó an raibh polasaí nua againn i dtaobh na Gaeltachta. D'fhiafraigh sé freisin cá raibh an Ghaeltacht, cén tórainn a bhí léi agus céard a bhí cearr sa saol ann. D'fhiafraigh an Teachta Mac Pharthaláin cúpla ceisteanna freisin, cuid acu a bhí simplí go leor agus cuid acu a bhí deacair agus ba mhaith liom freagraí a thabhairt orthu. Chuir sé an cheist seo: “Cad is ciall leis an leagan cainte sin a bhíonn ar bhéal dhaoine go minic — sábháil na Gaeltachta?”
Nach follas gurb é atá i gceist leas geilleagrach mhuintir na Gaeltachta a dhéanamh; sé sin, deis mhaireachtála níos fearr sna ceantair ina bhfuilid ina gcónaí a thabhairt dóibh agus deis a thabhairt do dhaoine óga na Gaeltachta cur fúthu, clann a thógáil agus, dá réir, cur le líon Gaeilgeoiri na Gaeltachta; fearasbarr deis oideachais a thabhairt dóibh ina ndúiche féin, agus dá réir sin fiúntas an tseoid atá acu sa nGaeilge a mheabhrú dóibh ionas go gcothóidh siad an Ghaeilge ina teanga shaibhir, laethúil mar thug a sinsear dóibh í.
Céard í an Ghaeltacht? Cá bhfuil na ceantair Ghaeltachta? Mhíníos, agus mé ag labhairt ag moladh an Dara Léamh ar an mBille, gur ceapadh [765] tóranna éagsúla ó 1926 i leith ar an nGaeltacht ach tá athruithe ar an scéal sna ceantair sin ó shoin agus is mithid anois tórainn na Gaeltachta a tharraingt níos soiléire i gcóir chuspóirí na hAireachta nua seo. Ach ní chuireann sin aon chosc orainn ó cheantair atá go soiléir, follasach ina nGaeltacht inniu agus i gcónaí a aithint agus a rá gan aimhreas: “Sin Fíor-Ghaeltacht.”
Beidh an t-eolas againn maidir leis na háiteacha sin agus maidir le staid na teanga agus an líon daoine. Le himeacht aimsire beidh an Aireacht nua ag faire agus ag déanamh fiosrúcháin ag féachaint cad é an dul chun cinn atá á dhéanamh. Ní deacair a rá céard í an Ghaeltacht—ach amháin an t-údarás agus an t-eolas agus an tomhas ceart tuisgeanach a bheith ann lena shocrú céard í.
Déanfaidh an Aireacht nua sa gcéad áit, a leagan síos go beacht, cruinn céard iad tóranna na bpríomh-cheantar Gaeltachta — sé sin na ceantair ina labhraíonn an pobal go coitianta agus de ghnáth an Ghaeilge mar theanga chaidrimh eatarthu féin ó lá go lá. Agus leis sin, féadfaidh an Aireacht nua freastal do leas na gceantar sin.
Sa dara háit, déanfaidh an Aireacht nua chomh fada agus is féidir é tórainn a leagan síos leis na mion-cheantair bhearnacha san, atá ar imeall na bpríomh-cheantar, a labhraíonn riar mhaith den phobal iontu Gaeilge mar theanga laethúil, agus a bhféadfaí an pobal sin a mhealladh agus a spreagadh chun úsáid na Gaeilge a leathnú agus a neartú ionas go mbeadh na himeall-cheantair sin i ndon a gceangal leis na príomh-cheantair mar aonad amháin.
Dúradh mórán maidir leis na Ceantair Chúnga ach is i gcóir na ndaoine atá ag labhairt na Gaeilge mar theanga laethúil a cuireadh an Bille seo dá thabhairt isteach. Ní chuirfidh sé isteach i slí ar bith ar aon ní atá dá dhéanamh fé lathair ná a bheidh ceaptha feasta i gcóir na gCeantar gCúng agus a muintir. Na Béarlóirí sa nGaeltacht a raibh tairbhe le fáil acu as seirbhísí Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeantar gCúng go dtí seo, beidh siad i ndon leas a bhaint i gcónaí as na scéimeanna éagsúla atá agus a [766] bheidh ann le haghaidh na gceantar gcúng san. Ach beidh tairbhe agus buntáistí sa mbreis le fáil ag muintir na Gaeltachta i ngeall ar gur Gaeilgeoirí iad. Beidh ar Aire na Gaeltachta cúram ar leith a dhéanamh de na Gaeilgeoirí sin.
Dhein an Teachta Lindsay tagairt do na ceantair atá leagtha síos san Acht um Thithe na Gaeltachta agus dúirt sé nach ceart go mbeadh an límistéar Gaeltachta níos lú ná an límistéar fén Acht sin. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil an ceart aige ach ní chuireann an Bille seo isteach ar an Acht sin in aon chor agus ní chuireann sé isteach ar na daoine go bhfuil éileamh acu fén Acht sin ar airgead i gcóir tithe. Sílim go bhfuil mórán daoine ag baint tairbhe as an Acht sin, tairbhe ná fuil tuillte acu.
Nádúrtha go leor cuireadh ceisteanna ar ndóigh fé go leor oibreacha nó scéimeanna forbairte a bhfuil cosúlacht ann go bhfeabhsóidís cás geilleagair na ndaoine sa Ghaeltacht—talmhaíocht, iascaireacht mhara agus intíre, na portaigh, cumhacht leictreachais, for-aoiseacht. Céard, adúradh, a dhéanfadh an Aireacht fé gach aon cheann de na nithe sin? Cén t-airgead a chaithfeadh sé agus cén chaoi a gcaithfeadh sé é?
Chomh fada agus is féidir, agus sin den fhormhór, déanfaidh an Aireacht nua na hoibreacha sin i bhfoirm gnáth-scéimeanna nó scéimeanna tionscnaimh nó “treoir-scéimeanna” atá ag Ranna éagsúla eile a chur chun cinn go héifeachtach agus go tapaidh.
Ach céim riachtanach sea bunú na hAireachta a caithfí a thógáil chun go bhféadfaí lán-scrúdú a dhéanamh ar na nithe ab fhiú a fhéachaint chun cabhrú leis an nGaeltacht agus iad a chur i ngníomh go húdarásach le lán-chumas agus ar mhodh iomlán, baileach. Beidh ar chumas an Aire nua féachaint chuige go ndéanfaidh na Ranna eile gach rud is féidir chun cabhrú leis an nGaeltacht.
Féadfaí go leor a dhéanamh, agus gan aimhreas déanfar cuid mhaith, trí chomhairlí agus coistí lasmuigh a bheadh ag oibriú i gcomhar leis an Aireacht agus ag cur lena cuid oibre. Ach is coinníoll riachtanach chun tairbhe a bheith ar obair na n-eagraíocht sin, fundúireacht teann seasmhach, i [767] bhfoirm na hAireachta, a bheith ann agus córas comhoibrithe agus ceangail idir í agus Aireachta eile a bheith leagtha síos go soiléir. Beidh, feasta, Aire Gaeltachta ann agus beidh an bhuntáiste mhór aige go mbeidh ar a chumas a bheith i láthair ag cruinnithe den Rialtas agus go mbeidh comhalta den Rialtas ann a mbeidh cúram speisialta na Gaeltachta air agus deis aige dul i gcomhairle i gcónaí tríd an Rialtas lena chomh-Airí. Tiocfaidh as sin go mbeidh aird le tabhairt ar chúrsaí speisialta na Gaeltachta gach uair dá mbíonn an Rialtas ag breithniú ceisteanna geilleagair, sóisiala nó cultúrtha na tíre. Beidh guth an Aire i ndon cúrsaí speisialta na Gaeltacbta a thabhairt os comhair an Rialtais go héifeachtach agus go díreach. Ní bheadh go deo an bhuntáiste mhór sin ag Rúnaí Parlaiminte ná ag Bord neamhspleách.
Ní bheadb Oifig a mbeadh Rúnaí Parlaiminte ina bun, ná Bord neamhspleách, choíche sa riocht sin agus an bhuntáiste mhór sin acu a scéal agus a gcás a dhéanamh go díreach leis an Rialtas. Nuair a bheidh Aireacht againn a mbeidh cothú agus caomhnadh na Gaeltachta mar bheo-chúram uirthi gach uile lá tuigfidh na daoine lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht, agus sa nGaeltacht féin, níos fearr tábhacht na teanga agus a fiúntas dóibh féin agus don tír. Is é a thiocfaidh as sin go ndéanfar neartú agus forás fá dhó ar staid na teanga agus go bhfaighidh an pobal fearasbarr measa uirthi agus a dtugann sí dúinn dár n-oidhreacht is dár ndúchas náisiúnta. Ach tuigfidh gach éinne go bhfuil aon tsuim aige sa nGaeltacht nó aon eolas aige ar an obair ann, agus go háirithe aon eolas ar an sórt oibre atá á déanamh sa nGaeltacht ag gach roinn den Stát sa tír, go dtiocfaidh fiúntas mór agus éifeacht san obair nuair a bheidh Aireacht againn a mbeidh cothú agus caomhnadh na Gaeltachta mar bheo-chúram uirthi gach uile lá.
Táimid ag foghlaim ó na rudaí a deineadh cheana agus táimid ag foghlaim ón taithí atá againn agus ón eolas atá againn mar gheall ar an ngléas lenar deineadh an gnó go dtí seo. Tá fhios againn an saghas gléasa go bhfuilmid ag feachaint chuige anois.
[768] Tá mé buíoch don Dáil as ucht na fáilte a tugadh don Bhille seo. Creidim go bhfuil gach dream sa Tígh seo agus sa tír sásta agus toilteanach agus i bhfábhar pé cabhair is féidir a thabhairt chun an teanga do choimeád beo agus í a láidriú, agus, pé cabhair is féidir leo a thabhairt, tabhairfidh siad é i dtreo is go mbeadh an gléas ceart againn. Níl le déanamh againn, agus sé an t-aon pholasaí atá againn é, ach gléas níos fearr a cheapadh ná mar atá againn anois.
Liam Mac Cuinneagáin: Níor chuala mé tosach an fhreagra. Ar dhein an tAire aon tagairt don cheist, nach féidir ó thosach, Aire nua a bheith i mbun an churaim seo?
Risteárd Ua Maolchatha: Níl éinne a thuigeann is fearr ná mé féin an deacracht atá ann do dhuine amháin a bhfuil sé de chúram air dhá Aireacht a stiúrú. Ag an am gcéanna, ní hé an rud céanna é Aireacht a stiúrú agus Aireacht a bhunú. Nuair a bheidh an Aireacht curtha ar bun, ansin ba maith liom go ndéanfaí an cheist do phlé arís. Ar aon chuma, níl aon tseift níos fearr, i dtuairim an Rialtais, ná a iarraidh orm an Aireacht seo a bhunú. Tá mé sásta iarracht mhaith a dhéanamh chun é sin do dhéanamh agus ní fheicim aon tslí eile chun é do dhéanamh fé láthair.
Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin: An féidir leis an Aire a rá anois go mbeidh Seirbhísí na Gaeltachta mar chuid den Aireacht Tailte?
Risteárd Ua Maolchatha: Tá mórán smaoiniú déanta cheana féin ar rudaí mar sin. Tá sé beartaithe ag an Rialtas gan aon rud fé leith do dhéanamh fé sin go dtí go mbeidh an Aireacht curtha ar bun agus an cheist breithnithe arís agus cabhair faighte ó na hoifigígh a bheidh i mbun na Roinne. Aon obair atá faoi aon Roinn fé leith fé láthair, is féidir an obair sin do thabhairt don Roinn nua trí Ordú Rialtais. Mar sin féin, do deineadh mórán smaoiniú fé sin. Tuigfidh gach éinne go mbfhéidir go mbeadh sé níos ciallmhire fanúint go dtí go mbeadh an Roinn curtha ar bun agus ansin is féidir an cheist do phlé arís.
[769]Tomás Ó Deirg: An féidir linn aon tuairim d'fháil ón Aire faoin am a thiocfaidh an cheist seo arís fé bráid na Dála? An mbeidh Meastachán Breise againn agus an gceapann an tAire go mbeidh sé i bhfad sara dtiocfaidh an cheist seo ós comhair na Dála aríis.
Risteárd Ua Maolchatha: Beidh Meastachán Breise ann. Is féidir a tuhiscint go gcaithfear mórán airgid bhreise a chaitheamh ar an nGaelteacht gan a bheith sáite i Meastacháin na Gaeltachta. Beidh Meastacháin ós comhair na Dála tráth éigin nuair a bheas an Bille seo rite. Cuirfear an Aireacht ar bun díreach nuair a bhéas an Bille seo rite. Sé an rud ba mhaith liom a fheiscint ná go mbeadh na hoifigigh i mbun na hAireachta, le linn cúpla míosa den tsamhraidh, ag teagmháil leis na ceantair is Gaelaí sara ndéanfar aon rud fé leith chun na hoifigí sin do thógaint ó aon Roinn agus iad a stiúrú go díreach. Ní hé sin lé rá go mbeidh faillí in aon cheann de na seirbhísí atá ann fé láthair.
Do cuireadh an cheist agus d'aontaíodh éi.
English version of Bill: Question—“That the Bill be now read a Second Time”—put and agreed to.
D'órdaíodh an chéad chéim eile le haghaidh Dé Máirt 1 Bealtaine, 1956.
The Dáil, according to order, went into Committee on Finance and resumed consideration of Estimates for the year ending 31st March, 1957.
Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.
Mr. Moher: When I moved to report progress last night I was rather defending myself at the Bar of the House against the charge of attempted assassination of the parish plan in County Cork.
Mr. Cunningham: You are not the only defendant in this case.
[770]Mr. Moher: I think I gave a fair cross-section of what one might describe as the functionaries in a local guild of Muintir na Tire. However, I am reminded I forgot the school teacher or, as he is known locally, “the master”, and I also forgot to mention the home assistance officer. I was going on to argue that this conflict between the bit of freedom which is left to organised groups and the inroads of bureaucracy is as old as the Department of Agriculture itself. I was pointing out that it began with the very foundations of the Department of Agriculture in this State. One of the oldest organised groups in the State was the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society founded by that great man, Horace Plunkett.
After he had founded this organisation and had done so much with so little for Irish agriculture and had fought all the opposition which was his lot to meet at that particular time, he was asked to form what was then, I believe, the Board of Agriculture by Balfour. He took with him a man by the name of Gill as his first secretary, leaving behind in his earlier foundation, the Irish Agricultural Organisation, Society, R.A. Anderson, another co-worker with him in the foundation of the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society. Later, when he left the Department of Agriculture and returned to his first foundation, he himself was amazed at the inroads that had been made by the new Department on the independence of the original foundation and it is interesting to note what Anderson himself had to say on this thing.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy's observations are not relevant to the Estimate before the House.
Mr. Moher: I am discussing what I might call the extension of the control of the Department of Agriculture in this matter, the direct control of the parish agent in the various counties where it operates.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy is evidently discussing the whole history of the Department of Agriculture.
[771]Mr. Moher: No. I am just showing that the challenge is as old as the Department of Agriculture itself and I quote from Anderson in his book, With Plunkett in Ireland. This is what he had to say, when discussing the consequences of the I.A.O.S. accepting a subsidy from the Department of Agriculture:—
“I realised that we had bartered such freedom as we had, for the Department's subsidy. As the Department paid the piper, so it asserted the right to call the tune.”
Mr. Dillon: Perhaps the Deputy will be good enough to give the date of that declaration?
Mr. Moher: It is a quotation from page 117 of the book, With Plunkett in Ireland. That is as far as I can go. On page 132——
Mr. Dillon: He was referring to the Department of Agriculture operated by the Tory or Liberal Government in Westminster.
Mr. Moher: He is referring to the inroads made upon the independence of the I.A.O.S. on accepting departmental control. Again, on page 132 in the same book he says:—
“It was not until then that he (Plunkett) realised the great mistake that had been made by imposing official control on a voluntary body, I.A.O.S., that he had founded. It had wellnigh killed all co-operative spirit and enthusiasm in us who formed its staff. It had destroyed all the initiative which had resulted in its remarkable progress, for we had no longer a free hand.”
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: All this happened a long time ago. At the moment we are discussing the administration of the Department and the Minister's activities during the past 12 months.
Mr. Moher: I am trying to argue that private initiative, organised initiative controlling the advisory services, is by far the most satisfactory. In those quotations, I have been trying to show that this collision [772] between departmental control and the invasion of the rights of independent organisations is an old one. I have given those opinions as impartial ones.
I was making the case last night that Muintir na Tíre is a rural organisation and in the areas in my constituency there are highly organised groups of agricultural organisations. There is a very distinct difference between Muintir na Tíre as a rural organisation and such organised bodies as the M.P.A., Macra na Feirme, The Irish Countrywomen's Association and the Irish Creamery Milk Producers' Association.
Mr. Dillon: What is the M.P.A.?
Mr. Moher: Sorry, it should be the N.F.A. All those bodies represent active farming organisation. I think that, if we are to have local control, those are the bodies which we should co-ordinate with any advisory service which we should provide in an area. You cannot effectively operate a service in an area when you have organised opposition as was evidenced when this matter was being discussed in the Cork County Committee of Agriculture.
Mr. Dillon: The Deputy organised it. Did the Deputy not write them all to come in?
Mr. Dillon: The Deputy told me last night that he took out his typewriter and made out six carbon copies.
Mr. Moher: Of the circular sent from the Department of Agriculture.
Captain Giles: It was an invitation.
Mr. Dillon: It was something blooming like that.
Mr. Moher: That is a complete and absolute misrepresentation. I had nothing further to do with it. The whole project was discussed, as far as I am aware, at county level in those organisations. It was a decision by those organisations at county executive level. I should hate to think for one minute that I, on this side of the House, or any Deputy on the Minister's side of the House, would exert an influence [773] and make any one of these organisations a political pawn.
One of the things for which we all hope and to which we look forward is that when those organisations exist they will have an independent and an objective approach and that they will consider anything that is of vital interest to agriculture and to Irish farming, outside the arena of Party politics. I am sure the Minister and every Deputy will agree that those organisations cannot be accused of, or labelled with, any political taint. I have been trying to make the case that if the Minister wants to do something big, something worth while, something with which his name will be associated, he has got to resolve this now. He has got to take organised farming into his confidence and try to make some arrangements by which the adviser, call him what you like, would be under local control. You surely can expect better results and you certainly can expect more co-operation. He may appear in a particular area where there is organised hostility. I do not say it is of an active kind but he is a kind of misplaced official wondering on which farm his advice would be acceptable and on which farm it would be repudiated. That is the case I have been trying to make and am putting to the Minister.
I go further and make this suggestion. I believe that the impetus behind the increased demands for the parish agent has a certain basis. I have been unofficially informed that there are 11 applications in the Minister's Department from Cork County. There is in this age of ours a fraudulent word “free” and I believe that the impelling force and the impetus at the back of those demands was the fact that the agent was a free agent paid for by the Department of Agriculture. He was paraded as free.
Let us not forget that there is nothing free to the agricultural community. In the final analysis, no matter where the free item goes, the burden will be shuffled by some device or another right down to the back of the agricultural community. I am not a believer in firing things around free. I am not afraid to say that I would like to see, as an earnest of the applications for advisory services, some [774] contribution from the people who are making the application. Too many people in political life to-day make statements with an eye to the impact of those particular statements on their ballot box. As far as I am concerned, as long as I am a member of this House, be it long or short, if there are unpopular things to do, or to be suggested, I will not be afraid to suggest them. Neither will I be afraid to go back to the farmers in my constituency and defend my position; nor again will I be afraid to suggest that, as an earnest of these applications, there should be some local contribution from the people concerned.
Every Government Department tempts the agricultural community with something free, the dangled carrot or the coated pill. In Government Departments there is always the implied or stated suggestion that, if you do the thing, there is 50 per cent. recoupment, That has been the incentive behind a mad gallop for expenditure in this country. There is always the temptation and always the incentive.
Let me say, first of all, that I do not want to be misunderstood. I have never met Mr. Moran. I assume he is a decent Tipperary man from what I have heard of him. I know Dr. Henry Spain, the Minister's chief adviser, in connection with the operation of the parish plan.
Mr. Dillon: On a point of order, I have no doubt what Deputy Moher intends to say is nothing but complimentary to the officers of the Department but if officers are to be mentioned by name and commented upon, that opens a wide field of undesirable procedure.
Mr. Moher: I want to put forward a suggestion. In the particular area in Cork where this parish agent now operates, there are two of the most progressive co-operative societies in Ireland. Kilworth is covered by the Mitchelstown Co-operative Creamery Society; Ballynoe, Conna and Ballyduff—I think it is a combined parish— are covered by the Castlelyons Co-operative Society. Both of these societies have already considerable financial commitments in those areas and operate services there. You have [775] Mitchelstown with the breeding station and the veterinary service covering the whole area, and there are other services there as well. Our aim in those areas should be to try to use the organisations we have so that the co-operative societies in the area can do something worth while. These societies should be asked to co-operate even financially; they should be asked to contribute, say, one-third of the cost of any advisers which might operate in their co-operative areas. The Cork County Committee of Agriculture should also be asked to contribute a third, and the Department of Agriculture should contribute a third.
Is that not an equitable and sensible suggestion, that all groups of organised farming in the area would form themselves into a committee? The greatest possible harmony exists between the various agricultural organisations in the area. In many instances, as the Minister is aware, a member of one organisation would also be a member of another and all of them are shareholders in the two co-operative societies concerned. I did not come in to demolish the advisory services provided. I did come in to make a suggestion which, I think, would give results far better than the Minister can ever hope to obtain from the parish agent as he now operates in that area.
As I have stated, in that area there are two local co-operative societies. There are also the National Farmers' Association, Macra na Feirme, the Irish Creamery Milk Producers' Association, Muintir na Tíre and the Irish Countrywomen's Association. Every one of those organisations is allied to the two co-operative societies. Let us not exclude Muintir na Tíre; let us not be narrow about it and let us also include representation on that committee from Muintir na Tíre.
Have you not something there? Have not you a group of farming organisations in the area as well as the two co-operative societies concerned which will provide the credit and lend a hand in the operation of any plan? Remember, credit, as the Minister knows, is an important factor in any development in connection with agriculture. [776] Where is it easier to get credit, where should it be easier to get credit or where would be a more sensible place to get credit than through a co-operative society which has assets which can guarantee a substantial bank overdraft? We do not want to throw our farmers to borrowing societies. We do not want to have our farmers committed too deeply in hire purchase. We know there is a constant drain on lending societies. If the farmer gets reasonable short-time credit from the local co-operative society, the Minister can be assured that he has got over the major difficulty in the matter of agricultural credit and agricultural development.
I make that suggestion. I do not believe in coming into the House and making destructive suggestions. I believe that if I oppose something I must show a logical reason for opposing it and that I must not oppose it merely because it was introduced by a Fine Gael Minister and I am under some suspicion sponsored by the Fine Gael organisation in that particular area.
I do not want to be paraded as being opposed to the extension of advisory services. We want advisory services but we want to make the most effective use of them and the plan which I have suggested is a plan which offers the Minister an assurance of success. If you set up in that area a local committee, controlled locally, away from the searing rust of departmental control, you can surely trust two societies who already manage an advisory service and, as the Department of Agriculture is aware, control an enormous personnel.
Let us come to the stage where we will show some act of faith, even at this late hour, in organised farming. One of the surest ways to prevent grousing and cribbing by organised groups is to commit them to doing something. Do not hold them continually in isolation. I can cast my mind back to the early days of the development of artificial insemination. I was associated as a pioneer with the society when that was introduced. Had the Department of Agriculture been the sponsoring authority, there would have been endless trouble, endless [777] difficulty, yards of red tape, departmental regulations, technicians being prodded and pestered by officials in the office and always the terrible danger involved by the fact that the technician and the field man must always watch himself. The Minister knows what a Civil Service Department is as well as I do. The technician has to meet all the difficulties; he has to face all the bumps; he is the fellow who gets beaten around and the man who sits in a conditioned office is the man who says: “Why did you do that?” Then the unfortunate man has always got to watch the waspish official who might write something into his file which would remain there forever to militate against him.
These are the reasons why you can always hope to get better results by having a man on the spot, a man living amongst the people, a man who is part of the life of the community, not a displaced person with his control centred in Merrion Street. That is why, as the Minister prodded me into speaking on advisory services, I have decided to come out and to put to this House my views on what we should do by way of throwing back the responsibility for development, not to the Department of Agriculture.
We are possibly one of the most Civil Service ridden communities in Europe. There are too many people in this country doing unproductive work. There are too many people in this country who scribble in offices and do nothing. The Minister well knows that the Americans who came here suggested that the technician should be sent out to the field, that he will do no good in the office, that we should let him get out and meet the people, face the problems where they are and try to solve them on the spot.
Mr. Dillon: He got a very warm reception from the Deputy when he went out into the field.
Mr. Dillon: The technician — the parish agent.
[778]Mr. Dillon: He may not have ever seen the Deputy but he heard him.
Mr. Moher: Any criticism which I offered was not criticism of the unfortunate man who had been fired out into the wilderness by the Department of Agriculture.
Mr. Dillon: “Fired out into the wilderness?” A minute ago the Deputy said he ought to be put out on the land.
Mr. Moher: He did not know where he would go.
Mr. Dillon: If the Irish Department of Agriculture send him out, he is being sent to the wilderness. If the Americans send him out, he is being sent out on the land.
Mr. Moher: If the Minister starts badgering me it will be a matter of fire and cross-fire. Let us get on with it.
Mr. Dillon: Hear, hear! Is fior dhuit.
Mr. Moher: I have put a suggestion to the Minister and he is still silent.
Mr. Dillon: The Deputy was complaining a minute ago that I was saying too much.
Mr. Moher: The Minister would still prefer the dispensary doctor, the curate, the local school teacher, the gravedigger, the sewerage caretaker and the maternity nurse as the persons who should be organised to advise this particular man on what he should do in regard to farming in the area. I have suggested that practically every group of organised farming in existence in this State has groups and guilds in that particular area. I have suggested to the Minister that the best thing he can do to formulate that advisory service is to get these groups working together. Every section of organised farming in the county is represented in those groups. Then he should bring in as well, as ex-officio members of that committee, the manager of the creamery, the manager of the local co-operative society. Those two people are vital. So would the chief agricultural officer. That would give you a governing organisation, a sponsoring [779] body that would be representative of all organised sections and it would also give the type of people necessary — the local co-operative society manager and the local creamery manager who would be able to provide the credit and further the schemes initiated by the parish agent.
I am aware, and so is the Minister, that the advisory services, as organised and operated in practically every county in the State, with the exception of a few, are extensive. They are extensive, in so far as the number of instructors are limited to cover huge areas. I shall not confine myself entirely to the parish as a unit because, as the Minister and anybody who knows rural Ireland is aware, a better unit might often be the group of shareholders served by a branch creamery. It has been suggested that in Cork County there are 98 or 99 parishes, and if we are to proceed on the basis of the three-parish plan——
Mr. Dillon: Are these 99 rural parishes?
Mr. Moher: I would not like to be too specific but I am aware that the city is not included. There is the area known as the city rural area. If we are ultimately to arrive at the position where we would have an instructor to every three parishes then we are approaching what one might call an intensive advisory service. Here is something to be thought out. Surely the intensive service cannot proceed on the same lines as the extensive one. Surely when we concentrate on an adviser in a given area, first of all there is an enormous lot of work and here is where I object to the control of the Department of Agriculture because, side by side with this development, will come an enormous build-up behind the technician. There is the mathematical formula of Parkinson's law for the development and extension of the Civil Service.
There will be built up behind the technician another enormous staff that would not exist in the smallest comparative degree if the advisory service were controlled locally. I would hate to think that, if we had an intensive [780] service, we would have schools of instructors racing round the parish taking soil samples with augurs and shoving them into their bags. Many farmers think of an advisory service along these lines; they think that the advisers should be there to do these things. They think that if there is a manurial shortage or if they have a spot of rust, the fellow will come out and locate it for them.
That is not the kind of idea we should have if we are to develop an intensive advisory service. We must first of all, in all areas, have somebody to give us a survey of basic levels of production at the time of the introduction of the advisory service and from there on would want to keep in mind the point from which we started and measure the development. In that way, we could measure the efficiency of the adviser and the need for co-operation in a particular area in which the adviser was working. Those are my views.
I want to refer to another difficulty. We know, and the Minister knows, that every agricultural science instructor is a civil servant. I was asked to speak to the Agricultural Science Faculty here in University College, Dublin, and I listened there to what I had been listening to years ago when I was a young man. The same clichés as I listened to 30 years ago were thrown out in Newman House that night. When we came down to the point I told them they were civil servants, no matter how they resented it and I said: “If you want to deny the fact that you are civil servants, is there a man here who will leave the sheltered position he has with a county committee of agriculture or with a Department and go to work with a private firm and run the risk of the exposure that is attached to failure?” No. They were then silent.
That is the difficulty. The co-operative societies could not develop an advisory service because those they would employ would not get the annual increment to which they would be entitled as employees of the county committee of agriculture or of the Civil Service. These people do not want to get away from the control of the Department of Agriculture on the one [781] hand. Yet, on the other hand, they do not want this control. They simply want the advantages attached to it.
If we are to get them outside the control of all this business of regulations, regimentation, personal files and all the other regulations associated with technicians linked up with the Government Departments, surely the one way we can do it, the indirect way, is to have the local organisations working in co-operation with the county committees of agriculture. I have been associated with a county committee of [782] agriculture for almost six years. Here you have a structure that would be substantially improved if the parish plan were put into operation and developed extensively throughout the country. It must, unfortunately, lead to the elimination and the liquidation of the county committees of agriculture.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 25th April, 1956.