Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Dublin Corporation Purchase Houses.

Wednesday, 24 June 1970

Dáil Eireann Debate
Vol. 247 No. 12

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53.

Dr. O'Connell, Dr. Cruise-O'Brien, Mr. M. O'Leary, Mr. Cluskey, Dr. O'Donovan, Dr. Browne: Information on John F. O'Connell  Zoom on John F. O'Connell  and Dr. Thornley asked the Minister for Local Government the number of successful applicants for Dublin Corporation purchase houses in the Kilmore and Tallaght areas, Dublin; the number of houses built; the number already allocated; and when the remainder will be allocated.

Mr. Molloy: Information on Robert Molloy  Zoom on Robert Molloy  At a public draw on 15th October, 1969, Dublin Corporation selected 500 successful applicants for purchase houses in various areas, including 242 at Tallaght. No purchase houses are being constructed in the Kilmore area.

At 30th April last, which is the date to which the latest statistical return from the corporation relates, 110 of the houses at Tallaght had been completed. Of these, 92 had been allocated, and the remainder were being allocated.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien: Information on Conor Cruise-O'Brien  Zoom on Conor Cruise-O'Brien  In so far as the reply concerns Dublin Corporation purchase houses and applicants therefor in the Kilmore west area, was the Minister's Department aware of dealings between such applicants and the secretary of the Peadar Carney Fianna Fáil Cumann?

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  This is a separate question and cannot be discussed in the House.

Mr. Molloy: Information on Robert Molloy  Zoom on Robert Molloy  It is sub judice.

Mr. Ryan: Information on Richie Ryan  Zoom on Richie Ryan  It is not. It should be. It is not in court.

Mr. Molloy: Information on Robert Molloy  Zoom on Robert Molloy  I will accept the ruling of the Chair in this matter.

[1806]Dr. Cruise-O'Brien: Information on Conor Cruise-O'Brien  Zoom on Conor Cruise-O'Brien  If the matter is sub judice it protects Deputy Haughey, the ex-Minister for Finance——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  Question No. 54 is postponed. I am calling Question No. 55.

Dr. O'Connell: Information on John F. O'Connell  Zoom on John F. O'Connell  With regard to Question No. 53, is the Minister aware in relation to some of the houses, the subject of the draw, that their allocation was actually arranged by this particular individual who is not before the courts and who is in England at the present time?

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  The Deputy is aware that it is out of order. The matter is sub judice.

Mr. Ryan: Information on Richie Ryan  Zoom on Richie Ryan  It is not sub judice until it is in court. The prosecution has not yet been issued. That is a bad ruling of the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  Will Deputy Ryan please stand up when he is speaking?

Mr. Ryan: Information on Richie Ryan  Zoom on Richie Ryan  No matter is sub judice until it is before the court. The matter in question is not before the court. Therefore, there can be no stoppage of any Member mentioning it in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  It is sub judice——

Mr. Ryan: Information on Richie Ryan  Zoom on Richie Ryan  It is not sub judice and the Chair knows it. It is not——

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  The Chair understands that the matter is sub judice. The Deputy cannot argue with the Chair.

Mr. Ryan: Information on Richie Ryan  Zoom on Richie Ryan  I can. The Chair is out of order.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick: Information on Thomas J. Fitzpatrick  Zoom on Thomas J. Fitzpatrick  (Cavan): On a point of order, would the Chair say when a matter becomes sub judice because my understanding is——

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  We cannot debate that now.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick: Information on Thomas J. Fitzpatrick  Zoom on Thomas J. Fitzpatrick  (Cavan): It is necessary to find out the position. [1807] I understand a matter becomes sub judice when it is before the court. It is not sub judice when it is with the law officers of the State or the police officers.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  I would draw the Deputy's attention to Question No. 53. If he reads it he will find that this matter does not arise on the question anyway.

Dr. O'Connell: Information on John F. O'Connell  Zoom on John F. O'Connell  May I ask you, Sir, why you ruled other questions out of order if the matter is not sub judice? Why did you rule them out of order wrongfully?

Mr. M. O'Leary: Information on Michael O'Leary  Zoom on Michael O'Leary  May I ask the Minister——

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien: Information on Conor Cruise-O'Brien  Zoom on Conor Cruise-O'Brien  You ruled some questions out of order because they were sub judice. I think you must have been misinformed as to the facts because this matter is not before a court and the individual in question is outside the jurisdiction. These applicants are being done out of their money and the Fianna Fáil Party should compensate them. We should not allow this matter to be cloaked over under a pseudo legal device here.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  The Deputy is making charges against private individuals. The charges should be made outside this House, not inside the House.

Mr. M. O'Leary: Information on Michael O'Leary  Zoom on Michael O'Leary  May I ask the Minister for Local Government whether he is satisfied that irregularities have not occured in the corporation?

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  That is a separate question.

Mr. M. O'Leary: Information on Michael O'Leary  Zoom on Michael O'Leary  Has the Minister, as the responsible Minister, made any investigations into this matter?

Mr. Molloy: Information on Robert Molloy  Zoom on Robert Molloy  I want to state in reply to the despicable conduct of the members of the Labour Party in putting questions here which concern a matter involving a person, a warrant for whose arrest has been issued, that fair play to everybody should be granted, the small man as well as the big man, [1808] and I would expect that they would leave a matter of this nature to be decided by our courts.

Mr. M. O'Leary: Information on Michael O'Leary  Zoom on Michael O'Leary  Is the Minister satisfied that irregularities have not taken place. Has he, as the responsible Minister, made any examination of the situation?

Mr. Molloy: Information on Robert Molloy  Zoom on Robert Molloy  I am satisfied from the information available to me from Dublin Corporation that they are satisfied that the manner in which the draw for these houses was carried out was satisfactory.

Dr. O'Connell: Information on John F. O'Connell  Zoom on John F. O'Connell  Is the Minister satisfied that no house was allocated wrongfully? Is he aware of the fact that the Garda have evidence that at least one was.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  That is a separate question.

Dr. O'Connell: Information on John F. O'Connell  Zoom on John F. O'Connell  It concerns those you wrongfully ruled out of order, with respect.

Mr. Cluskey: Information on Frank Cluskey  Zoom on Frank Cluskey  In view of the importance of public confidence in the administration of the allocation of houses, both purchase and tenant, by Dublin Corporation, would the Minister consider holding a public inquiry?

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  That is a different question.

Mr. Cluskey: Information on Frank Cluskey  Zoom on Frank Cluskey  It is directly related.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  Question No. 55.

Dr. O'Connell: Information on John F. O'Connell  Zoom on John F. O'Connell  May I ask why you ruled that question out of order, the question calling for a public inquiry?

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  There is nothing in the question asking for such information.

Mr. M. O'Leary: Information on Michael O'Leary  Zoom on Michael O'Leary  If we want to repeat these questions next week may we have your permission to put them down? You will not rule them out of order, now that the matter is not sub judice?

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  Deputies can [1809] put down questions and the Chair will deal with them in the ordinary fashion.

Dr. O'Connell: Information on John F. O'Connell  Zoom on John F. O'Connell  Did you not tell me last week that my questions would be accepted on the Order Paper today? May I ask that?

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Cormac Breslin  Zoom on Cormac Breslin  It does not arise on Question No. 53.

Dr. O'Connell: Information on John F. O'Connell  Zoom on John F. O'Connell  Last week you told me it would appear on the Order Paper today—a question relating to a public inquiry into the method of allocating Dublin Corporation purchase houses?

Mr. Molloy: Information on Robert Molloy  Zoom on Robert Molloy  The Garda are investigating allegations made by persons, including Deputy Dr. O'Connell, and I think that in a matter of this nature the investigations should be left in the hands of the Garda who are the authority which the State has established to deal with matters of this nature.

A Deputy:  It would never get beyond the State Solicitor's office.

Mr. Cluskey: Information on Frank Cluskey  Zoom on Frank Cluskey  Surely the Minister will agree that it is important that any facts should be brought to the attention of the public in connection with this in order that the corporation can be cleared of any suspicion?

[1810] Question No. 54 postponed.


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