O'Kennedy, Michael

Wednesday, 3 November 1971

Dáil Eireann Debate
Vol. 256 No. 6

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Committee on Finance. - National College of Art and Design Bill, 1971: Committee Stage (Resumed).

One has to choose one's words very carefully when making a suggestion to the Deputy. We may reach the stage where we will say nothing.More Button

The Deputy seems concerned particularly about the teachers and students exercising their democratic rights and that they might recommend to the Minister the block list system. The Deputy knows that m...More Button

Deputy Cruise-O'Brien and others who call for quorums always give us an opportunity for explaining special reasons, too.More Button

The example of Northern Ireland is being quoted too much by the Deputy in this context for some strange reason.More Button

Is the Deputy suggesting the College of Art is a splinter from some other institution?More Button

Perhaps the Deputy might put the matter to the committee dealing with Dáil procedure and so on.More Button

It could be considered by them.More Button

They might not be the competent ones actually to determine it but I think it could be considered certainly.More Button

This is a fairly standard provision in legislation of this sort. There is a very clear reason for it. It can mean that a person can be party to both sides of a contract either directly, personally o...More Button

Do not tell me it happens there as well.More Button

All sections of society—students, farmers, businessmen and others—are subject to hazards in certain activities which may be peculiar to their particular calling or profession. Some might suggest that...More Button

It is not my intention to set myself up as a judge on the facts presented to me by Deputy FitzGerald, who acted both as advocate and judge in giving us a short statement of what he alleges happened.More Button

The Deputy said the sentence was an intolerable one. I do not know what happened, but it is the function of the court to take all relevant factors into account. Students are not establishment figure...More Button

Yes.More Button

It is no harm that students should recognise that they are subject to the same conditions as the rest of society. There are some who are coming around to the view that the sooner students realise tha...More Button

But there is something in it and perhaps it would be no harm if students recognised that. Maybe farmers are concerned just as others are concerned about the attitude of the farmers. I would leave thi...More Button

I am not suggesting they are.More Button

The Deputy misinterpreted the sort of consistency that, as he says, I urged.More Button

National College of Art and Design Bill, 1971: Committee Stage (Resumed).

In his last contribution the Deputy was concerned with the distinction between second level and third level. I think the kernel of the matter is that under the HEA Bill which recently went through th...More Button

Any amendment of this legislation cannot affect what is in that legislation.More Button

I cannot see how it could without cutting across the provisions of that legislation. To that extent, and so soon after that legislation has gone through, surely the appropriate thing would be, apart ...More Button

The position in this case is that the director and registrar will be paid out of public funds. They will be appointed by the board. It does not seem to be unreasonable that their terms and condition...More Button

Despite what the Deputy has just said.More Button

One reason is the factual one that the universities have been established for a considerable number of years and have been exercising their functions under the university system. This, and the Deputy...More Button

——or disapproval as the case might be. That does not necessarily mean to say that their autonomy will be infringed. All Members of this House like to feel free to express various views. They like t...More Button

Does it mean that Deputies are?More Button

Does it mean that Deputies are subject to the Minister and the Minister for Finance?More Button

In the exercise of his functions as a Deputy, and Deputy FitzGerald is as good an example as anybody, he exercises them fully and fearlessly without any regard for what the Minister for Finance who pa...More Button

That was not said.More Button

My Tipperary dialect may be somewhat defective but it does not need that kind of——More Button

If there has been any consistent theme through the Deputy's contribution it has been that we should as much as possible in this legislation, with regard to this establishment, follow the pattern of th...More Button

Is the Deputy suggesting, to be clear, that the conditions of service of officers and servants of the board which may vary with the type of employment should be written into this Bill?More Button

The Deputy is endeavouring to write it into the legislation.More Button

Would the Deputy accept that if you have a statutory provision in legislation, a Deputy is then entitled to ask the Minister if the person was given the reason for his suspension, and he is entitled a...More Button

I am not sure that an employee or worker would look on it that way, that he would look on it as being a very good condition, but equally there are the questions of terms of pay, superannuation, hours ...More Button

The normal person in normal employment is more concerned with the conditions under which he might be dismissed. The Deputy as a lawyer will appreciate that apart from the guarantees that are to be wr...More Button

For two reasons the Parliamentary Secretary is not in a position to advise nor, if he were, would he do so. First, I am not at present engaged in practice but, secondly, and most important, one does ...More Button

Would the Deputy not agree that it would be open to Deputies to say: “This is not a reasonable or adequate reason” and to read out a letter or a notice? Would that not open up the whole question here...More Button

The Deputy remarked that the board will be autonomous. Therefore it will not be open to us in the House to inquire into the reason.More Button

I do not think the Deputy can point at anybody who does not make permanent conditions of employment in the College of Art. Some of his own amendments are not consistent with the concern expressed by h...More Button

The principle of permanent employment.More Button

The Deputy appears to be concerned about the Minister's failure to——More Button

Perhaps the reason the Deputy's arguments are so inconsistent is that he does too many things at the one time.More Button

The Deputy would let it run for three months.More Button

The Deputy refers to curious arguments. He will very shortly, I suppose, be advocating that after the coming into effect of this Bill the whole-time members of the academic staff shall have their pos...More Button

Money alone does not compensate.More Button

The Deputy does not know much about human satisfaction if he thinks that money compensation alone would be adequate.More Button

Look at the effect of the existing subsection and of the amendment. Under an existing subsection which the Minister proposes to delete, the committee of the board would consist of members of the boar...More Button

So, in fact, it is confined to the people who are actually serving on the board under the Deputy's own amendment.More Button

But that relates to advisory bodies.More Button

The nominations will be left to the board and if, as the Deputy seems to imply, they exclude themselves or any members of the board from membership of the committee it would be a very strange situatio...More Button

The circumstances are not such as need cause the Deputy concern. It is being withdrawn.More Button

The Deputy was asking for details of the figure and he is now apparently implying that they are not forthcoming.More Button

In so far as much of this debate seems to be an exercise in self-justification for the views adopted by various Deputies, it might be no harm to mention to Deputy Keating that the number of part-time ...More Button

In regard to the number of part-time teachers, in case Deputies opposite should feel that anyone, including or excluding these or anybody else, may have grounds to think that it was drafted to exclude...More Button

That might be in some measure confirmation, if confirmation is needed, of the fact that it was not directed at a particular two or three. Further confirmation may be derived from that fact—but, of co...More Button

It is what one might call indirect corroboration. Deputy FitzGerald mentioned Pontius Pilate. I do not know what the exact role of Deputy FitzGerald in the New Testament is. Obviously it would not b...More Button

We have to look at incidentals to assure each other of our bona fides. The fact that a teacher is not covered by section 27 does not mean that he is automatically excluded, which seems to be the impre...More Button

I did say that money was not everything but——More Button

It was a little naïve of the Deputy to parade himself as being a martyr by virtue of his making a proposal of this sort which would attract odium.More Button

I am using the very words the Deputy used.More Button

The Deputy did use the words “public odium” which would only attach itself——More Button

The Deputy was apparently sacrificing himself on the altar of public interest. If we are going to start with the idea that everything that emanates from the Minister is put forward for vindictive or ...More Button

Thirty-five. We have a total figure of approximately £300,000.More Button

The rest of their working lives.More Button

It varies in each case and that sum is not peanuts. It is a lot of money.More Button

For any number of 30 people, and if we average it——More Button

If the Deputy can average it without having the base on which to average, he is a better expert than I thought he was.More Button

This matter can be confirmed in greater detail later on. The amount of money involved, even for three, four or five for the rest of their natural days would not be insignificant and it is a fact on wh...More Button

It is not a reflection on anybody.More Button

It is not a reflection on the staff but simply a matter of responsibility that if you write in conditions into legislation you must be prepared to honour those conditions when they arise. Who can say...More Button

The prospects of the Act coming into operation with the amount of legislation and the manner in which it was going through the House, were remote. It was expected that these part-time teachers would...More Button

It is open to the board, of which the students and staff would be members, to employ the existing staff even if they are not guaranteed employment under section 27. In the nature of things they are n...More Button

I have endeavoured to get the Deputy to consider the 18 people, and then he might take a more accurate view of the situation.More Button

I do not think that goes far enough. The Deputy said some of the points were valid and that others were less valid. Were they invalid?More Button

Did any of those with whom the Deputy consulted or who consulted him direct any odium at him as a result of these proposals?More Button

Then I wonder what was the basis for the statement the Deputy made in the House today that he was leaving himself open to odium with the teachers concerned.More Button

Who else?More Button

That is not misleading. Is the Deputy implying——More Button

Would the Deputy regard that as good and sufficient reason?More Button

I did not say that. I am not suggesting that they are synonymous.More Button

He has not got the Deputy's capacity for using time.More Button

So the Deputy was talking about the staff.More Button

There was an interruption from a casual visitor from the Opposition.More Button

Try again. The Deputy is very patient.More Button

And the universities.More Button

Deputy FitzGerald brought them in.More Button

If he brings them in it is all right. If we bring them in it is all wrong.More Button

They are both concerned with autonomy.More Button

If we all had the Deputy's standard of intelligence and integrity nobody would ever be misled.More Button

The Deputy will probably appreciate that by accepting his amendment we would again extend the scope of those who would be guaranteed further employment by the board, though not very significantly. The...More Button

One must come down somewhere. I do not suggest the Deputy was arguing either extreme position but the further it is extended the more you confirm the fact or demonstrate that there are others who are...More Button

There is nothing in the section which says they will be required to work 18 hours from here on. They can be appointed permanently and may not be working 18 hours a week.More Button

I cannot see the Deputy's difficulty.More Button

I see the Deputy's point. It is a fair point.More Button


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