Brennan, JosephWednesday, 21 June 1978 |
Dáil Eireann Debate
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Finance Bill, 1978: Report Stage .
: Amendment No. 2 is in the name of Deputy O'Leary and others. Amendments Nos. 3 and 4 are related and, therefore, we can discuss Nos. 2, 3 and 4 together. Amendment No. 2 not moved.
: I will communicate with the Deputy.
Ceisteanna—Questions . Oral Answers . - Building and Construction Industry .
: We cannot let this develop into an argument. I am calling Question No. 2.
: I am calling Question No. 2.
Ceisteanna—Questions . Oral Answers . - In-Calf Heifers .
: While the Deputy is not really in order on raising this here, I ruled out a lot of his questions on the ground that they were anticipatory of the debate on the Adjournment. It is common practice an...
: We cannot have a debate now.
: In the last analysis it is the rights of Deputies that the Ceann Comhairle is protecting when he rules out these matters.
: There are Standing Orders and precedent. I will not go into a discussion on them at Question Time.
: I say you are.
: I am not going to be questioned on the reasons for ruling out. The Deputy has recourse to means which have been explained already.
: It is no part of the Ceann Comhairle's function to protect the Minister except in so far as he must uphold Standing Orders and the Rules of the House.
: The Deputy is being grossly disorderly in raising this matter at Question Time. If that were permitted every Deputy whose question was ruled out of order would be bringing it up here. I could not ...
: There will be another place for raising it.
: That is correct with regard to statistical questions.
: I am calling Question No. 4.
: Question No. 4. I will not permit a discussion on this.
: That is a very unfair statement by the Deputy. (Interruptions.)
: Does the Deputy wish to raise it on the Adjournment?
: This is exactly what I do not want. This is never permitted and no decision has been taken by the Ceann Comhairle that has not many predecents in past practice.
: I have already explained, and I should not give explanations for these things at Question Time because it is not done, but out of courtesy to the Deputy I repeat that it is the practice prior to the...
: The Deputy has other means of inquiring about that.
: It may not be raised now. If the Deputies think that the Ceann Comhairle is using some measure of ruling out questions which has not been used before they should bring it up with the Committee on P...
: That is hypothetical. Question No. 4. (Interruptions.)
: Question No. 4. I want to make it quite clear that the reason for ruling out the questions will not be a matter for discussion at Question Time.
: I am calling Question No. 4.
: These are not points of order.
: They are not points of order and I am not accepting them as such. I am calling Question No. 4.
Ceisteanna—Questions . Oral Answers . - Cork City Unemployed .
: Order, please. When the Minister is answering a question the Leader of the Opposition must know that he must resume his seat. (Interruptions.)
: Deputies surely must know that it is not in order to raise matters which they are raising now and it never was.
: The Deputy has been permitted a long time. We will now allow Question Time to continue. (Interruptions.)
: There is no point in trying to make a debate out of something which is not in order now. If the Deputies wish to question the manner in which these questions submitted are ruled out, they may bring...
: That is not correct.
: The Standing Orders of this House have been questioned time and again at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges but not here. I will convey the precedents and reasons to the Deputy. I have alre...
: I am not having any further debate on this question.
: I will convey the reason to the Deputy. (Interruptions.)
: Question No. 5.
: We will have no more discussion on this matter. We are establishing a precedent now that every question ruled out can be discussed at Question Time. It may not be discussed now. (Interruptions.)
: The Deputy will resume his seat. I will adjourn the House if the Deputies persist in being disorderly.
: The Ceann Comhairle is not obliged to explain why questions are ruled out at Question Time.
: I told the Deputy that I will convey the precedent and the reason to him for the questions being ruled out of order. I can assure the Deputy that there are several precedents.
: One at a time, please.
: No, the Chair is never in touch with anybody except his own advisers.
: No, but it is on the record that the Taoiseach indicated that the debate would be on the Green Paper.
: The question is not going to be discussed further now. The House has discussed it more than sufficiently. I promised Deputy FitzGerald that I would convey to him the reasons for the ruling.
: No, we will have no further points of order on this question. (Interruptions.)
: The Deputy may not allow it to pass but he will not raise it here; it never is. There is nothing new in ruling out questions. There is a book of precedents two inches thick which covers the questi...
: I am not going to be pressed to give details here.
: The Chair will convey to the Deputies the reason, as he always does.
: I will give the statement to Deputy FitzGerald who asked for it. (Interruptions.)
: Will Deputies please resume their seats? One at a time to speak.
: Will the Deputy please resume his seat now?
: That is not correct, Deputy. The same statements that are being made here now could be made in relation to every question that has ever been ruled out. The House is being grossly disorderly in rai...
: I am calling Question No. 5.
: I am calling Question No. 5.
: Order, please. If Deputies wish to turn the House into a disorderly scene they may do so but the Chair is not ruling that it will.
: The Chair sees no reason for adjourning the House. There is ample time to convey to Deputies the reason Deputy Keating's questions were ruled out.
: The Chair is not proposing to adjourn the House.
: It is not the fault of the Chair that the House is disorderly. (Interruptions.)
: I am calling Question No. 5.
: Question No. 5.
: I am calling Question No. 5. (Interruptions.)
: Please, Deputies, would you have some respect for the House?
: There is no point in three Deputies standing up simultaneously. It looks to me like a deliberate attempt to create a disorderly scene. I am not having it. The Chair will not submit; the dignity a...
: Order, please. When the Chair is speaking will Deputies at least resume their seats? There are means of dealing with matters on which the House feels that the Chair is not behaving properly. The C...
: What is the Deputy seeking?
: Would the Deputy now resume his seat?
: Question No. 5.
: Order, please.
: Order, please. I am not accepting that the House should be adjourned for a matter that is without precedent. Whenever a question is ruled out there is no question of the House being adjourned in or...
: Will Deputies now please refrain from being disorderly and we will get on with the business?
: The Chair has no right to take a motion of that kind from private Members. Deputies know that there is no precedent whatever for it and it is grossly disorderly to suggest there is.
: Would Deputies now allow the Business of the House to be carried on?
: Would the Deputy please resume his seat? I am calling Question No. 5.
Ceisteanna—Questions . Oral Answers . - National Wage Agreement .
: The Chair is not accepting the motion.
: There is no precedent for such a motion.
: I am certain.
: The Deputy is simply being disorderly. Will he resume his seat? Will he have some regard for the decorum of the House?
: Question No. 7.
: Will the Deputy please resume his seat?
: I want to say my last word. There will be no further discussion on this. The only point made is that the debate is not on the Green Paper. If the debate is not on the Green Paper, then I will rev...
: Most Members who are discussing this matter have not even looked at the questions.
: The same criteria applies to all questions. It is on the record of the House that the Green Paper is to be discussed on the Adjournment——
: If it is not, I will review my decision.
: That is not a point of order.
: The Deputy has made his statement now and he may pursue it in another place.
: Would the Minister answer Question No. 7?
: Order.
: The Deputy is deliberately seeking to disrupt the Business of the House.
: I am calling Question No. 8.
: I am not accepting it. It is not the Chair's job——
: Would the Minister reply to Question No. 8?
: In cases of urgent necessity, of which the Ceann Comhairle is the judge.
: I do not regard this as a matter of necessity, let alone urgent necessity. It is not in order and I do not accept the proposal.
: I am not opposing; the Chair does not oppose. I am not accepting it. I would appeal to the Deputy in the interests of better order of the House to allow Question Time to proceed.
: No.
: I said that if the Green Paper is not for discussion in the Adjournment Debate, I will—— (Interruptions.)
: If the Adjournment Debate is not on the Green Paper I will review my decision.
: That is correct.
: The Chair has the right to judge what questions are permissible——
: The Chair never has any ulterior motive. This Ceann Comhairle is not concerned with who is embarrassed and who is not. I am going on precedent and on Standing Orders. This is not the time to pres...
: Question No. 10.
: We will debate this another time. (Interruptions.)
: In the history of this House there never was a precedent for questions ruled out of order being discussed in such a disorderly manner.
: I am not, but I am prepared to look at the situation and discuss it with the Members, as I always do, outside Question Time.
: I give every facility to people whose questions are ruled out of order and that is common practice. My predecessor did the same. It was never permitted that the matter would be raised at Question T...
: Will the Deputy allow Question Time to Continue?
: Question No. 10. (Interruptions.) Question No. 9 postponed.
Ceisteanna—Questions . Oral Answers . - Green Paper Discussions .
: My hearing is all right. The Deputy asked the Minister, through the Chair, if he would be here tomorrow and he said yes. Why do you continue being disorderly?
: I will look at the questions and inform the Deputy why I ruled them out of order. I will do that when Question Time is over and if the Deputy is not satisfied he may put down a motion and seek to r...
: Order. Please resume Question Time. One Deputy at a time being disorderly is enough. (Interruptions.)
: The questions on which I ruled were down for Thursday.
: I have promised to review them in the light of the statement made that the Green Paper will not be——
: The Chair cannot give any such assurance at any time in relation to any question.
: Will Deputies please see reason and obey the Chair.
: The questions are put down for tomorrow.
: The Deputy should not indulge in speech-making. He has covered this matter repeatedly.
: Frequently questions are ruled out. In the past I had rows on several occasions in that regard but I was never permitted to refer in the House to the questions concerned. There was always ample ti...
: If the Deputy would have patience I could convey many precedents to him for my ruling.
: At another time.
: Before the House adjourns.
: No. I shall have to look up the precedents, something I prefer to do in the right place.
: That is a simple request by which I will abide.
: Order.
: Yes.
: He did not ask for it for today. I will make the statement in my own time, perhaps today.
: I will consider it and let the Deputy know the outcome.
: I am giving an undertaking in so far as I can.
: Yes. The Chair has advisers and is acting strictly on precedent in relation to the questions. I assure the House that I do not take a personal decision on these matters. My decisions are made in...
: I am accepting the responsibility and I undertake to make a statement regarding the precedents for my decision, but there is no precedent for the way in which the matter is being dealt with by Deput...
: Deputy Cluskey has contributed his share to what has occurred. Last evening Deputy Keating notified me that, although the matter was being ruled out of order, he would be raising it in the House.
: The Chair has never been subjected before to cross questioning such as this at Question Time. I will be able to point out there are many precedents for my action.
: The remaining questions will appear on tomorrow's Order Paper.
Business of Dáil .
: In any event the questions will be on tomorrow's Order Paper if they have been ruled in order.
: The matter was already debated in the absence of the Deputy.
: Finance Bill, amendment No. 11.
: The House already took a decision in regard to this matter. I do not want to start all over again.
: Item No. 8.
: The Deputy raised it at Question Time and wishes me now to go over what the House has done.
: The House made a decision on this. Will the Deputies now allow the Finance Bill to continue?
Finance Bill, 1978: Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage .
: This Bill is certified a Money Bill in accordance with Article 22 of the Constitution.
Private Members' Business . - Statement by Ceann Comhairle .
: I assume the Chair has permission to make a statement in relation to a matter which took place in the House earlier today at Question Time when the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle in relation to certa...
: The people asking the questions were seeking information which they thought enabled them to equip themselves for the debate. But they were ruled out by one of my predecessors—the said Committee Stag...
: I have not caught the question clearly.
: Most of these questions, like the ones ruled out of order on tomorrow's Order Paper, were based on the assumption that an opportunity would arise in a forthcoming debate, already mentioned, sometime...
: I do not want to enter into any controversy at all on this matter but I would say that many of the precedents here in front of me in this huge file relate to cases where the matter was ruled out in ...
: I would point out that there is no motion before the House and I do not think we should have a debate on this.
: I will hear Deputy Keating briefly.
: The Deputy may not enter into controversy over this. I have, I think, gone as far as I can. I would point out there are questions, many questions, ruled out just because there was a known opportun...
: Purely statistical questions are always allowed.
: There is no precedent for this type of discussion. I want to say finally, if the House is satisfied that the Green Paper is not the principal part of the discussion, and that a proper opportunity d...
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