Barrett, Sylvester

Wednesday, 22 November 1978

Dáil Eireann Debate
Vol. 309 No. 9

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Local Government (Financial Provisions) Bill, 1977: Committee Stage.

I move amendment No. 3: In page 4, subsection (1), between lines 10 and 11, to insert the following definition: “‘manager’ means a manager within the meaning of section 1 of the Act of 1955;”. This am...More Button

I move amendment No. 5: In page 4, subsection (1), line 20, to insert “, or as part of,” after “being used as” in the definition of “secondary school”. This amendment amplifies the definition of “seco...More Button

If buildings on a separate site form part of a school complex they still qualify for relief. Amendment agreed to.More Button

“Community hall” means a premises consisting wholly or partly of a hall or a similar building which is not mainly used for profit or gain but for purposes which both involve participation by inhabitan...More Button

The Deputy said that the 25 per cent applied to more than the domestic side. It did not. If, for instance, part of the premises is used for credit union purposes and the remainder is used for the ge...More Button

Credit union activities are only one specific community activity. The hall must be available for other community activities to qualify.More Button

If its main use is for other community activities, and if it is available for that purpose, then it would qualify.More Button

Yes.More Button

It refers only to a situation where, say, a house and 100 acres of land form one hereditament. The whole hereditament is regarded as domestic, but section 2 sees to it that only the building's valuat...More Button

Which is not partly used for commercial purposes, such as a business premises and a domestic site in one building.More Button

Land could be in the one rating——More Button

This is the way it is stated in the 1852 Act and “farm” is meant to be an adjective.More Button

The word “farm” is meant to qualify “out office” and “office building”.More Button

Yes.More Button

Yes.More Button

Local Government (Financial Provisions) Bill, 1977: Committee Stage (Resumed).

The reference to lodgings in subsection 3 does not include premises registered under the Tourist Traffic Acts, 1939 to 1975. These premises are hotels, guesthouses, holiday hostels, youth hostels, ho...More Button

The Deputy said “hotels and particularly family-run hotels”. We are all interested in promoting tourism and trying to get more tourists to come here but there is no way anybody can say that a very b...More Button

I said 307.More Button

Hotels?More Button

I want to clarify the purpose for which we are here. We are not here to derate tourism which is our third largest industry, and we are all proud of it. We did not make any commitment to derate touri...More Button

The purpose of the qualification “significant” is to give flexibility to local authorities in the administration of relief. As an example, rather than taking rate collectors in this instance, we will...More Button

If the stipulation in the Bill of one-third of the valuation subject to a maximum of £18 is not satisfactory for the ratepayers they have the right of appeal to the commissioner through the ordinary ...More Button

I cannot speak for the Valuation Office or say how they would react but from what little experience we have we know they have treated people very fairly when apportioning existing valuations as betwee...More Button

There must be a definition of “mixed hereditament”. Take again the example of a private house in which one room is used for dress-making. Flexibility permits the local authority to treat that as a do...More Button

Who is to blame for that?More Button

The local authority submits a list.More Button

What was the appeal for? It must have been appealed by the local authority. On what grounds was it appealed?More Button

The local authority appealed it, otherwise they could not revalue it.More Button

The local authority are to blame, because otherwise the valuation officer cannot revalue them.More Button

The Valuation Office comes under the Department of Finance and not under this Department. The Valuation Office only value or apportion hereditaments or ratings which are submitted by a local authorit...More Button

For an apportionment, if that is required or if they consider it is too low. Local authorities always had this power.More Button

I have not forgotten the point made by Deputy Quinn and I wish to tell him that I am prepared to have a look at this with a view to improvement, if that is the case. I wish to clarify these business ...More Button

The expression is “revalued”. I have seen this. I have written to local authorities, believe it or not. This is how it happens. It is wrong to conclude that a person who appeals through a local au...More Button

It is the ratepayer who will be appealing for an apportionment and not the local authority. Local authorities are not going to do this in these instances. It just does not happen. It is the ratepaye...More Button

If I find that existing legislation does not ensure that, I will certainly have a look at it.More Button

Yes.More Button

I do not wish to interrupt the Deputy but I told Deputy Quinn I was going to have a look at this.More Button

Yes. I am going to have a look at the definitions. It includes the definition the Deputy is talking about.More Button

That is when there is a letting only.More Button

I am aware how little it has happened.More Button

This is a continuing accusation, which has also been made on Second Stage, about valuation officers running madly around the country revaluing everything.More Button

I did not say the Deputy spoke on it. The total increase in building valuations for the whole country arising from the revisions published on 1 October was £650,000. This figure is almost identical w...More Button

This list was published on 1 October.More Button

The list was submitted in December 1977 and derating had already come to stay, not only the 25 per cent but also the derating of July 1977. This is the list submitted in December 1977.More Button

This list could not be made up until the end of the rateable year which was December 1977. They would not know the full list of properties which would have to be submitted so it could not have been m...More Button

There are so many properties listed every year and the list is not completed and sent up until after the end of the rateable year. The particular year ended 31 December 1977. The list would then be...More Button

Not any more.More Button

What question?More Button

When did the Deputy ask the question?More Button

The valuation list was not published until after 31 October.More Button

It is not my job to answer that question.More Button

I am giving the total valuation increase.More Button

As well as the commitment on derating, there was also a commitment that the non-domestic sector would not be called up to bear any part of the derating, nor has it been called upon to do so this year...More Button

Land never changes. These are building construction valuations.More Button

Take the matter up with the Minister for Finance.More Button

What question?More Button

The Deputy said that he put it down to the Minister for Finance and now he is saying that it was put down to the Minister for the Environment.More Button

Because it comes under the Valuation Office.More Button

The figure I gave was published after 1 October.More Button

They are the up-to-date figures for 1 October. The Deputy said they were outdated, but how much nearer can you get?More Button

For the year ending 31 December 1977. You cannot get more up-to-date than that.More Button

This is for the year ending 31 December 1977. No list has gone up for 1978 because the year has not ended.More Button

For 1977.More Button

The lists are submitted for the year ending 31 December 1977. The revision of those lists takes place during 1978, and has been completed. That is what we are talking about. There is no other list at...More Button

They have nothing to do with rates.More Button

When did he call?More Button

As I said, he was doing his work for the year ending 31 December 1977.More Button

That is right.More Button

He was working on the lists for 1977. He did not send the notice; it was the county secretary.More Button

The work takes place in 1978 but they are for the year ending 31 December 1977.More Button

The Deputy said it was out and he got the result. Now he says when it comes out it will be for 1978.More Button

We could not have a revision for 1978 because the year is not yet over.More Button

They are now revising for the year in advance. They do not know what they have to submit but they are revising in advance. Is that what the Deputy said?More Button

There is no such thing as a water rate. It is a charge for water. Municipal rates do not include water charges.More Button

The Deputy is right.More Button

The main reason separate charges for domestic water supplies are permitted in county council areas is that while virtually all urban developments are served from local authority water systems 16 per c...More Button

The saving to the Exchequer is £1.2 million.More Button

Water charges are sometimes called water rates. They are a direct charge for a service and are not, therefore, part of the domestic rate. We gave a commitment in the manifesto regarding domestic rat...More Button

Because of previous legislation which governs Dublin Corporation and Cork Corporation— powers under previous legislation which those corporations enjoy.More Button

Previous legislation governs it, not this legislation.More Button

Because of previous legislation.More Button

The State will contribute that portion.More Button

Two previous Acts govern the municipal authorities we are speaking about. They could not charge for water service. No commitment was given about water charges. Dublin Corporation and urban authorit...More Button

All of them with the exception of Dublin Corporation, Cork Corporation and the urban authorities. Regarding Deputy Quinn's argument, if one can call the situation discriminatory, that has been the sit...More Button

Any local authority has discretionary powers with the exception of the urban municipalities of Dublin and Cork. If Cavan County Council, for instance, decide not to impose a water charge they are fre...More Button

No. Local authorities have discretionary power in this respect. If they have been imposing a water charge it is for them to decide whether that charge is included in their overall estimate. It is not ...More Button

That is not so.More Button

From local authorities who are imposing a water charge.More Button

The local authority have discretion as to whether to include this charge in their estimate figure. It need not be a separate charge.More Button

Yes.More Button

They always had that power.More Button

I will not do that. Since the introduction of this Bill I have been accused of interfering with the powers of local authorities and I have no intention of dictating to them that they should do as the...More Button

That will not be necessary. The matter rests with the discretion of local authorities.More Button

No. Part of it will continue to be included in their overall estimates and in the rates they will strike.More Button

The decision as to whether to make the water charge a separate item is at the discretion of the local authorities. Some local authorities are doing this while others are not doing it.More Button

I have told the Deputy that it is a matter for the discretion of the local authorities. I am not giving any commitment regarding the £1.2 million.More Button

I have explained that it is a matter for the discretion of the local authority whether to have a separate charge. I am not giving any commitment about passing on £1.2 million, either in full or in pa...More Button

It will be a matter for them to decide whether to have a separate water charge.More Button

That is not for me to say.More Button

I have explained that the way they charge it is at their own discretion.More Button

If it happens where Cork and Dublin are concerned that it is included in the overall estimates it should happen accordingly in any other place.More Button

Sorry, municipal authorities.More Button

This is discretionary power for the local authorities. I have already said that. It is not for me to be seen to interfere in any way with local authorities or their powers. I have been accused of t...More Button

It is not for me to dictate percentages or figures.More Button

It is a water charge, not a water rate.More Button

It is a water charge; it should not be a water rate.More Button

That is what it is, a charge for service. I have no knowledge of the 1972 circular and I cannot clarify whether such a circular went out.More Button

It is at the discretion of the ones who still charge the water charge, and some of them do term it the water rate. They are empowered to do that if they want to. There are certain municipal authorit...More Button

No, no.More Button

The local authority have discretion with regard to the size of the rate and how it is charged. They have that power under the Local Government (Sanitary Services) Act, 1962.More Button

No. The local authority are empowered to do this under the 1962 Act.More Button

No, not generally. The local authority have discretionary power. They can instal meters and so on. All this is embodied in the Local Government (Sanitary Services) Act. With regard to any other kin...More Button

If they decide to do so then it is at their own discretion. Our commitment and this Bill ensures that the Government, through my Department, will be responsible for rates.More Button

I have answered twice. That should be sufficient.More Button

For the third time, the local authority has discretionary powers.More Button

For the third time, with regard to the Government commitment, through my Department we will be responsible for the derating which takes place under this Bill—domestic rates, rates on secondary schools...More Button

For the last time, it is a water charge, although it is sometimes called a water rate: it is strictly a charge for a service rendered by the local authority. As I have already said it is at the discr...More Button

I will not have a chat with him.More Button

If you adjourn it for a month I will still not have a chat about it.More Button

I answered it five times.More Button

Subsection 5 provides that generally, apart from the case of farm buildings entitlement to rates relief under the Bill will depend on the use ordinarly made of a premises at the time of making the rat...More Button


Last Updated: 14/09/2010 13:34:07 First Page Previous Page Page of 46 Next Page Last Page