O'Kennedy, MichaelThursday, 26 May 1983 |
Dáil Eireann Debate
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I made the first part of that statement, but did not make the second part. Also, I did not say the total tax revenue. The Minister should not misquote me. I said from income tax and VAT. I do not...
I agree.
I know that the Minister is as concerned as I am regarding the opportunity to debate the Bill within the constraints laid down but I would suggest that if he is quoting from his Budget Statement he wo...
I want to make a brief point which applies to many of the amendments. The Minister suggests that the Opposition, or for that matter The Workers' Party—but he is applying it in particular to us—are ma...
For local authorities.
The question has been put.
How will the Minister select a quarter?
This is an important section but because of the time limit I will be brief. We are opposing the section and we have adopted this stance after full consideration of the issues involved. There may hav...
Section 16.
We have asked our Whip, in view of the delay on the last section, which many of us regret, to have consultation with the Government Whip. I do not know what the outcome of that is. It is regrettable ...
We are opposed to section 17 for very good reasons, one of them being apprehension about money flowing out of the banks. It would put £1,250 million at risk. I am glad that our amendment brought hom...
Before the vote was taken the Minister announced that he was putting forward further amendments——
The Minister indicated to which sections he was putting further amendments even at this late stage. Could I again have a note of the sections to which the Minister is putting amendments?
Section 46 deals with?
That the Minister is bringing in these amendments at this late stage is extraordinary. This side of the House at least now can claim some credit in that we have amendments down to each of these and t...
He does things at such a late stage that one wonders. SECTION 47. Question proposed: “That section 47 stand part of the Bill.”
Could I ask the Minister when will we have these amendments?
That is not very reassuring. On section 47, we have a whole range of them that we will deal with quickly. I am not opposing any of these. I want information. Section 47 is the section that imposes n...
I appreciate the fact that the Minister has been kind enough to stray a little off the immediate point.
In response to my question. If we were to adopt the precedent adopted by the French Government we might here in section 47 be taking very much more stringent actions than we are taking now. Our curr...
I wish to make some comments on this section and also on section 49, even though the sections will have to be put separately. Here we are dealing with something of considerable interest. Firstly, t...
I can answer that.
The Deputy knows that we are not allowed to propose——
The Chair, quite properly, refused to allow me to go further.
That sounds good coming from Deputy Mitchell.
Hear, hear.
How could the Deputy have been listening? This is his first time to come into the House.
Where was the Deputy listening? This is his first time in the House.
This is the first time the Deputy came into the House.
How relevant is this?
I did propose extra taxes.
On a point of order——
This is definitely a point of order. This section is related to duties and excise. The point I was making was——
—— that because of the level of duties and excise we will get less for the Revenue than otherwise.
I certainly sympathise with Deputy Mitchell on this one because what you say, Sir, is quite right, we have not had explanatory memoranda with amendments. But never have we had such a plethora of amen...
One is tempted to comment that, with the level of collapse in business and trade recently, it is as well that there were included liquidators and receivers because, the way things are going, we are go...
This is the section which reduces the annual turnover limits for registration, as far as I can see, for deepsea fishermen from £15,000 to £12,000 — this is compulsory registration for value-added-tax....
Deputy Daly has had considerable experience in this area. A farmer with a turnover of £12,000——
I do not know what a horse trainer is doing in that business if the best he can do is achieve a turnover of £12,000 per annum.
This applies to a horse trainer and farmer who engages in both activities.
If the combined turnover of both activities is £12,000 he is certainly not much of a horse trainer and he cannot be much of a farmer either. My case is particularly concerned with small traders. Othe...
The Minister mentioned some specific categories.
I have an amendment down and I want clarification on the categories affected in the subparagraphs. As I understand it, category one refers to deep-sea fishermen; category two refers to business consi...
It is nice to have a forceful personality here. (Interruptions.)
In respect of some services.
It does not. (Interruptions.)
It is a fair point. There is a balance there, as well.
No, it is not.
I am not suggesting that the debate should terminate at this point, but we may have reached the point of disagreement. I want clarification from the Minister on two matters. First, with regard to ca...
Category two refers to a business consisting of not less than 90 per cent of sale of taxable goods. That category reduces from 30 to 25. Exactly who are included in the definition of general trader,...
What is the distinction between those two terms and the others?
I had some cross-talk with Deputy Mitchell but do not mean cross in the sense of being angry. Deputy Mitchell has diligently attended the House and made a case from time to time. That is something w...
Anything which he has to say in this connection has not been with a view to hurting the public services but, as we are trying to do here, representing the interests of small traders. The Minister ha...
How are we going to ascertain the income of these people for income tax purposes when we do not know what they are earning? The Minister is proposing to do that under section 18. How is he going to ...
The Minister is happy enough to smile, but he would not know enough about them to assess their liability for income tax and corporation tax, as the case may be. I can see certain problems arising the...
May be.
Self-assessment?
Oh, Lord, make us pure, but not yet.
They will soon be calling the Minister Augustine Dukes —“Oh, Lord, make me pure, but not yet.”
We have heard of the Pharisees and the publicans. Now we know where they are.
I am not saying that we are engaging in a battle of one over the other in this case. On that last admission that the Minister would go down that road if it were feasible, if the Revenue reach the sta...
——in the selling of illegally imported videos, televisions and so on, they would know also that if these commodities had been disposed of through proper legal channels they would have attracted VAT. ...
The point is that in order to have made an income they must have made a sale and having made a sale, they could be liable to VAT.
I should have thought that amendment No. 66 would have been included as well.
I move amendment No. 65: In page 58, line 20, to delete “23 per cent.” and substitute “20 per cent.”. These amendments are designed to propose to the House that the level of increase, as announced by...
I have your ruling in my pocket, a Cheann Comhairle.
That is a different matter. I appreciate that. I had proposals down to raise extra revenue in some places, as had The Workers' Party in regard to other places. They, like us, have been obliged by t...
Those records will be on the Minister's files and his advisers will have been aware of the representations I made last year. I received a promise that this matter would be looked at in the context of...
I remember the manner in which it was said. Was the Minister in Brussels at the time or was it the Taoiseach? They do not always sing the same tune.
And have them increase their tax — there is no chance of that.
It would not solve the problem, but it would be a factor.
The Minister is, of course, including the zero rate in this.
We are making some progress.
A Cheann Comhairle, could I suggest that since we now have less than 15 minutes to debate the sections dealing with stamp duties, perhaps we could address ourselves to the elements involved in section...
I want to address myself to two of them. In relation to the levy on the banks, this issue arose with the Minister and his predecessors. It was referred by me to the Commission on Taxation as a matte...
Oh, yes, it is definitely. If the Minister is going to deal with the banks by way of levy, if he wants to get something from them by way of levy, I presume he will be very anxious to ensure that their...
I forgot to mention that we are opposing section 81. That is the section which proposes to delete the exemption from stamp duty on consideration of marriage. We feel this is a very important element...
I take note of what the Minister has said. Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 79: In page 65, subsection (2) (b), line 17, to delete “negligently”. It is part of the code already in relation to income tax that a person negligently furnishing or failing to ...
I did not say it did.
“Knowingly or negligently”. That is not the same thing.
No. Read the Bill. “Knowingly or negligently”— line 2 of (b).
Far from being reassuring what the Minister has just said has the very opposite effect particularly when he says this will be an encouragement, if not a threat, to people who are engaged in their prof...
In support of what Deputy O'Malley has said, amendment No. 85 and others are in exactly the same territory.
I would be quite pleased to see all the amendments in my name to this section taken together.
Such as those that we are now discussing and I wish the Minister would get to the point of those amendments. He is using time.
The Minister had notice of those amendments for a long time.
The Minister keeps discussing the principles. He should keep to the amendments.
The amendments have been put down for a specific purpose and Deputy O'Malley has supported them.
Let us do just that.
This is on a point of order. That Deputy O'Kennedy had lunch with A or B is hardly relevant to the amendments to which we have asked the Minister to direct himself.
The Minister was certainly ignoring some of the points made by Deputy O'Malley on the relevant amendments.
We have had the prologue, let us have the drama now. We have only half an hour.
The secretary.
When I put down these amendments it was as a consequence of very deep consideration and of the clear evidence that we were moving into a new minefield. It was clear from the Minister's failure to rep...
Hear, hear.
As the amendment is in my name, I just want to support what Deputy G. Mitchell has said. You are aware of the fact, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that by agreement we had 30 hours to discuss 109 sections....
He is entitled to——
To hell with justice, put them in jail is the Deputy's motto.
I want to express my appreciation to the Minister for his readiness to recognise the validity of the arguments we presented. It vindicates the approach we have taken in asking that three hours be dev...
Despite the understanding we have, the Minister will understand that we must call for a vote.
Before the Minister moves his amendment may I just ask for guidance on a matter of procedure on this whole chapter? Having regard to the limitations on the debate——
Unless we can agree that Deputies make their contributions on the various sections together we will never come to the end of them. They are all interlinked. There is the definition section in terms ...
I accept your ruling because ordinarily we avoid creating precedents. I appreciate the Chair cannot totally accede to our request. I would ask the Ceann Comhairle in the circumstances to allow a rea...
That is all I seek. I am obliged to the Chair.
I know the purpose must be to pinpoint the particular definition but would the Minister like to elaborate a little further and tell us what exactly is the definition that is contained in the other Act...
Could that mean that in assessing the aggregate income of the household, it could be applied to cover the income of step-children, adopted children or illegitimate children?
I am glad that I raised the question then. We have an amendment down in any event to limit the income which is relevant in this case to the income of husband and wife as distinct from the aggregate o...
I move amendment No. 90: In page 66, line 45, after “Acts”, to insert “as reduced by the provisions of section 137 of the Income Tax Act, 1967 and section 34 of the Finance Act, 1974, section 8 of the...
It is not for me to deal with this matter but I do not think the Deputy is addressing himself to this section.
We are not dealing with avoidance or evasion per se.
Deputy Kelly made a point with which I am in sympathy but I made the case initially that it is going to be very difficult to deal with this list of amendments without varying the overall principle. I...
It suits me personally and also my party that you have made that ruling because, first, I would not have the capacity, the conviction or the flow of oratory that Deputy Kelly has just displayed. In y...
How much?
We are both guessing.
That is the point I am making.
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