Nealon, Edward

Thursday, 29 May 1986

Dáil Eireann Debate
Vol. 367 No. 3

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Road Transport Bill, 1985 [Seanad]: Committee Stage (Resumed).

I had made the point that I accept the principle of the amendment proposed by Deputy Wilson that there should be a right of appeal against a decision of the Minister to revoke or suspend a licence. I...More Button

Although I think my amendment is more desirable, that is in no way, as Deputy Wilson implied, reflecting on his amendment which is succinct and to the point. This is a more general provision which co...More Button

In the new system there will be no transfers. There will be special regulations made. We will deal later with what happens if a person who is the designated person or the owner dies and the question...More Button

All existing applications are being dealt with in the normal way.More Button

If the Deputy will give me that information I will look into it.More Button

The CII contend that if licences are to be granted to all who satisfy EC requirements, then the EC regulations should be the criteria in this respect. The CII hold the view that licences should only ...More Button

The extra provisions relate to conditions that may be applied by the Minister in the granting of a licence. There is a variety of them. For instance, the display of a plate could be included in the g...More Button

I do not think this will create any grave difficulties as such. It would be unwise at this stage to remove regulations which have survived through a multiplicity of Acts and which have caused no dif...More Button

That is within the amendment.More Button

A Cheann Comhairle, did I move my amendment?More Button

It is appropriate on section 5.More Button

The only new provision is paragraph (c) which deals with the EC Act. A licence would not be suspended or revoked before the appeal to the District Court, and notification from the Minister to suspend...More Button

Yes. The Minister would have to notify the licensee that there was a proposal to suspend or revoke, as the case might be. The licensee could put into operation the machinery for appeal provided for ...More Button

There were discussions with the Minister on this and the possibility of establishing an appeals tribunal was considered very carefully. After considerable discussion it was decided not to proceed wi...More Button

It was thought that there is no case in the context of qualitative control for the establishment of an independent licensing authority. Attempts to balance supply and demand are not on because of mea...More Button

The paragraph states: on the ground that the holder has been convicted of an offence (whether under this or any other Act) in relation to the business to which the licence relates or a vehicle used in...More Button

I move amendment No. 4: In page 6, before section 6, to insert the following new section:More Button

It did not improve it. Otherwise we would have done so.More Button

I agree that the phraseology is rather cumbersome. The Parliamentary Draftsman had the dual task of incorporating the positive application and the negative matter of the possible suspension of the li...More Button

As we know, lawyers are always well rewarded, whether the circumstances are difficult or easy.More Button

There is no sinister motivation behind this——More Button

As Deputy Wilson said, this is liberalising legislation as far as road haulage is concerned, something for which people have been calling for a long time, and there is no question of curtailment of nu...More Button

The Department check the car tax books when they are sent in —there is nothing new in that—and the vehicles have to be insured before the tax is issued. There will be plates on each truck. One of th...More Button

As the Deputy said, plates are currently displayed. As regards the last point, this is another unfortunate result of the knock-on effect of a business collapsing. This is a point many of us may not...More Button

This re-enacts in a modified form section 8 of the Road Transport Act, 1971 as amended by section 4 of the Road Transport Act, 1978. Here again we come across the difficulties of referring to other B...More Button

As the Deputy has said, this deals with international activity. In the Road Transport Act, 1971 the restricted road freight licence was introduced. It has nothing to do with the restricted areas. I...More Button

Yes. What it does not allow is point to point activity in this country.More Button

Even for Irish citizens.More Button

I will explain how it has developed. It is rather complicated. They can do precisely what they wish abroad but, of course, they are governed by the various permits they have. They can go anywhere i...More Button

As the Deputy pointed out, there is a move to liberalise transport haulage within the EC and, naturally, there may be developments in that area which will totally liberalise transport point to point p...More Button

He cannot operate within this country under his licence with regard to transporting goods from one point to another. His restricted licence allows him to pick up a load for delivery internationally b...More Button

We do not anticipate any difficulty in that regard. We have sent a copy of the Bill to the Commission and there is a move in regard to the liberalisation of transport. However, looking at the other ...More Button

Of course regulations are extremely restrictive and we are in favour of liberalisation so that our hauliers can operate internationally as business people. There are conditions and naturally we want...More Button

As far as this Bill is concerned they would be covered by the restricted licence.More Button

As far as own account operators are concerned they do not need a licence but they could not cross the Border and carry goods around any county. As far as hauliers are concerned their permits in North...More Button

That is outside the scope of this Bill.More Button

I agree with the Deputy but that is more a matter of enforcement. There are sections later on in the Bill which will deal with that. As regards Deputy Wilson's point, where there are two sections in ...More Button

As I understand it the legislation is roughly the same. We have a bilateral agreement with Britain but there is the restriction we have been talking about which is the key point. It is not possible ...More Button

I did not get the reference.More Button

The obligation to hold a merchandise licence under the Act or to have a plate.More Button

This section re-enacts existing provisions empowering the Minister to charge a fee in respect of a restricted road freight licence and a licence deemed to be a restricted road freight licence. Those ...More Button

They are not regarded as punitive but they are not what one would have as ready change in one's pocket. The point is that the people who will pay them are not our own citizens.More Button

They are not meant to keep it along——More Button

I do not have the figures so I cannot answer. But I understand that they are not inconsequential. I will get the figures for the Deputy.More Button

There is one fee of £20. But there can be variations depending on whether it relates to a multilateral operation or a bilateral operation. I do not have the actual figures but the Deputy need have no...More Button

Our own people involved in the haulage business are charged various taxes so it is only fair and equitable that as far as the restrictive licences and people coming in to this country are concerned, t...More Button

The general criteria to be used are the elements of cost of administration and issuing of these licences. This could be substantial at times dealing with what could be relatively involved documents i...More Button

Administration costs are the basis for it. I did not rule out other elements as well. But we must also take into consideration charges levied on our own hauliers in other countries. We need to be a...More Button

As the Deputy will be aware, there is divided authority here as between the Departments of Communications and of the Environment. The same situation arises as far as the councils are concerned and ou...More Button

Yes.More Button

My first answer is that the haulier should be aware of these matters if he is an experienced haulier. The suggestion which the Deputy has made that there should be some information given to the appli...More Button

This section provides for a technical amendment to section 5 of the Road Transport Act of 1978 to cover the agreements made by the Government. In addition to that amendment, the section in question h...More Button

It was passed by the Dáil, but not yet by the Oireachtas.More Button

The section empowers the Minister to exempt by order any specified class of vehicle or specified class of transport under certain provisions of the Transport Act. It extends the provision relating to...More Button

This is very much a technical amendment, as the Deputy will be aware, of section 8 of a previous Act. This is in order to include a reference to agreements made by the Government in addition to agreem...More Button

It is precisely the same amendment as we were going to make, with the same effect. It has been accomplished in the Dublin Transport Authority Bill.More Button

That is right. The Dublin Transport Authority Bill also had to incorporate the extra element whereby licences issued by the Dublin Transport Authority would also be covered as well as licences issued...More Button

I understand that the EC are working on that. The point made by Deputy Wilson is very well made. There is activity in that area. Question put and agreed to. SECTION 9. Question proposed: “That secti...More Button

Section 112 (2) of the Transport Act, 1944, is an exceedingly long subsection. It states: Where— (a) merchandise, which is supplied by a person in the course of a trade or business carried on by him...More Button

At the moment a person using leased trucks must have a licence in order to operate those trucks legally even though he is operating them on own account only activity. The effect of this provision is ...More Button

Not if he is an own account operator. An own account operator, provided he does not get involved in haulage outside his own activities, will not need a licence. Previously he did not need a licence ...More Button

Yes. An own account operator is confined to his own business with the leased truck as well as with his own truck. However, if the own account operator wants to get involved in haulage outside his ow...More Button

We are certainly getting involved in the finer points.More Button

He can lease one of those licensed trucks but it is of no advantage to him to do that. The fact that the plate is on display will not be of any advantage to him. It is important to note that he cann...More Button

Such a person is not hiring in an outside activity, he is bringing in a truck within his own operation.More Button

Yes. He would not be bringing in an outside driver. If one leases a vehicle with a driver one is engaging a person to carry, and carriage for reward is then involved. A licence is necessary for tha...More Button

I am very sympathetic to the point raised by the Deputy as regards the wording and drafting of this Bill. It all goes back to the fact that we are amending in this Bill previous legislations and comp...More Button

Involved in this Bill at one time or another are the Road Transport Acts of 1932, 1933, 1934, 1935, 1956, 1971 and 1978 and the Transport Acts of 1944 and 1958. We had a casual reference to the Dubli...More Button

That is one of the difficulties which arises. There is nothing to stop a person who may be an own account operator and who has his own trucks from engaging in extra activity in bringing in a licensed...More Button

There always have been inquiries flowing to the Department in the past as regards who are and who are not holders of licences.More Button

I would accept immediately what the Deputy says about their situation not being directly comparable. It is very valuable that this should be there as a provision. There will be a question of people i...More Button

I have no doubt that as usual he will put forward a very cogent argument in favour of it.More Button

I fully agree about the need for indexation and easy accessibility to information. I will bring these points to the attention of the people involved. Now that we are in the computer age there is no r...More Button

The new provision empowers the Minister to take into account the special circumstances that may arise from the death or incapacity of the holder of a carrier's licence. It is transferring a hardship...More Button

I appreciate and accept the points made by the Deputies but, notwithstanding my concern, I must repeat that this section is as lenient as the EC regulations allow. The three-year clause is inserted i...More Button

I understand it is the same reference number I gave earlier — the European Communities Merchandise Road Transport Regulations, 1977, Statutory Instrument No. 386 of 1977, and given under powers of the...More Button

Subsection (1) empowers the Minister, if he is satisfied that it is necessary to avoid hardship, to grant a temporary provision for the business under the licence to be carried on. The person to whom...More Button

So far as the company are concerned they are the designated competent person. When they get a licence they then designate a competent person. They will only get into difficulties when the competent ...More Button

Generally the main provision is the examination.More Button

The regulations are laid down and an examination is necessary as far as the licensee is concerned. The important point is that a competent person will not be needed for the first year or 18 months bu...More Button

They need not have done the examination. After the 18 month period the person would be a competent person within the regulations and the main regulation covering a competent person is that that perso...More Button

Yes, I am satisfied, as I explained earlier and as the Deputy accepted, that we have gone as far as we can under the EC regulations. In addition, I am satisfied that we have covered all or practicall...More Button

Again that is the EC regulation but I am not so sure it is not a good idea. After a one year period it might be very useful for some organisations who may have come through a traumatic period due to ...More Button

A licence comes up for renewal every three years and financial standing becomes a relevant factor again in that respect. As far as the transfers here are concerned that condition was fulfilled in the...More Button

This empowers the Minister to make regulations to introduce on-the-spot fines for certain offences as recommended by the Transport Consultative Commission, and the provision is very closely modelled i...More Button

There are several major presumptions in that.More Button

One is that there would be a change in the House. The second is that the Deputy would be Minister for Communications.More Button

In the event it would be the prerogative of the Taoiseach to decide on his Cabinet.More Button

I would say the Deputy would make an excellent Minister for Communications.More Button

The difficulty of referring to other Acts was alluded to by Deputy Wilson, and section 13 deals with the Principal Act, the Act of 1932, the Transport Act, 1944, the European Communities Act, 1972, an...More Button

The reason the European Communities Act is mentioned is because the various regulations under which on-the-spot fines can be applied under it — for example the tachograph — feature there. The Ministe...More Button

I know the Deputy is familiar with this area. One isolated offence does not affect “good repute”. If a person has paid the record should be adjusted in time before any difficulties can arise about a...More Button

In Britain the fines differ in many respects to our on-the-spot fines. A Magistrates Court can be set up quickly. It goes through a court procedure. The case will be dealt with almost immediately. T...More Button

I agree with Deputy Wilson that our drivers going abroad should have an easy reference to all the regulations that exist and the possibility of fines in the countries to which they are going. Some ar...More Button

That is perhaps a bonus. The on-the-spot fines will not be recorded. Question put and agreed to. SECTION 14. Question proposed: “That section 14 stand part of the Bill.”More Button

This section provides for increases in the penalties for various offences in the Road Transport Acts. The new section increases the maximum fine on summary conviction to £1,000 and provides for a max...More Button

As the Deputy rightly points out, the key section here is section 14 (1). This provides, where a person engages in the carriage of merchandise for reward without a licence, in other words illegal hau...More Button

I move amendment No. 5: In page 11, before section 15, to insert the following new section: 15.—(1) The Minister may appoint any of his officers to be transport officers for the purposes of section 1...More Button

I have considered Deputy Wilson's amendment. The establishment of regional squads of transport officers as proposed in this amendment implies the establishment of regional, administrative and supervi...More Button

Road Transport Bill, 1985 [Seanad]: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Final Stages.

I replied at very great length before the adjournment of the debate on this matter. I have sought to respond to the various points made by Deputy Wilson. Even if we were to have a regional disposit...More Button

I move amendment No. 6: In page 11, before section 15, to insert the following new section: 16.—(1) A transport officer shall for the purpose of— (a) the Road Transport Act, 1932, the Road Transport ...More Button

This amendment will put a new section in the Bill. This new section will be in the Bill when and if this amendment is passed. That will be section 16 of the Bill. It is very important that the powe...More Button

Bus operators must conform with a number of regulations under the 1932 Act. They must conform with regulations under the European Communities Act, for example, the tachograph regulation. We must hav...More Button

I move amendment No. 7: In page 11, before section 15, to insert the following new section: “17.—The Minister may bring and prosecute summary proceedings for an offence under— (a) the Road Transport ...More Button

Naturally I would prefer to have Deputy Wilson's agreement rather than his opposition because the best way to get legislation of this nature through is by agreement, if possible. What Deputy Wilson is...More Button

I move amendment No. 8: In page 11, before section 15, to insert the following new section: 18.—(1) Subject to subsection (4) of this section, the Minister may by order— (a) specify any enactment or...More Button

A statutory instrument.More Button

That is right.More Button

We thought that would have the Deputy's approval. Amendment agreed to. Section 15, as amended, agreed to. SECTION 16. Question proposed: “That section 16 stand part of the Bill”.More Button


The existing Long Title relates only to amendment of the Road Transport Act, 1933. The new sections we have been dealing with and which have been introduced into the Bill will confer powers for the ...More Button

Last Updated: 14/09/2010 01:01:57 First Page Previous Page Page of 54 Next Page Last Page