Order of Business. Wednesday, 21 March 1990

Dáil Éireann Debate Vol. 397 No. 3 Page of 156

The Taoiseach:    It is proposed to take Nos. 5, 6 and 2.

It is also proposed, subject to the agreement of the House that:

(1) Business shall be interrupted at 12 midnight tonight.

(2) The sitting shall not be suspended at 1.30 p.m.

(3) No. 5 shall be taken without debate.

(4) The proceedings on the Second Stage of No. 6 shall be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. and the Minister for Defence shall be called on to conclude the debate at 6.40 p.m.

(5) There shall be no Private Members' Business today.

(6) Private Members' Business which shall be Motion No. 52 on today's Order Paper relating to the North-South rail-link shall be taken at 5 p.m. tomorrow and the following arrangements shall apply:

(a) The proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. tomorrow,

(b) The speech of any Member [502] called on shall not exceed 15 minutes and

(c) The moving of the Motion shall not form part of the sequence set out in the Resolution of the Dáil on 7 November 1989.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I must now ask if the proposal that business shall be interrupted at 12 midnight is agreed?

Mr. Dukes:    Agreed.

An Ceann Comhairle:    That the sitting shall not be suspended at 1.30 p.m., is that agreed? Agreed.

Is it agreed that No. 5 shall be taken without debate? Agreed.

Deputy Dukes on No. (4).

Mr. Dukes:    On No. 6.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy De Rossa on No. (4).

Proinsias De Rossa:    On No. (4) on the Order of Business I wish to state that I am opposed to the guillotine.

Mr. Dukes:    That is the one I am on, No. (4), Second Stage of No. 6.

Proinsias De Rossa:    On No. (4) that you called, Sir, I am rising to indicate that I am opposed to the guillotine at 7 p.m. on the Defence (Amendment) Bill. I propose that we vote on this.

An Ceann Comhairle:    It is in relation to the same matter.

Mr. Dukes:    I do not agree to the proposal to guillotine the Second Stage debate on this Bill. I have received this morning a copy of what is purported to be an agreed statement between Government Deputies and PDFORRA. I am glad to see these discussions are taking place and I am forced to the conclusion [503] that these discussions would not have taken place if this House had agreed to taking this Bill in the rushed way the Government first agreed. I believe those discussions should take place but I cannot accept that this House should accept that all of the matters dealt with in this agreed statement should be dealt with outside this House and only by consultations between an outside organisation and a principal officer in the Department of the Environment. I believe the result of any such discussions should be brought back in here so that this House can discuss fully what is intended in this Bill, and if we agreed to any regulations being made on the Bill, what the scope and nature of those regulations should be. I am, therefore, opposed to the guillotine.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Dick Spring on the same subject.

Mr. Spring:    On No. (4) in relation to Second Stage of No. 6 of today's Order of Business we objected strenuously to the taking of this matter as the Government are proposing. I will outline briefly my reasons for that as follows. The situation seems to have changed dramatically since last Tuesday evening, given that two Fianna Fáil backbenchers had a meeting last night with PDFORRA. Whereas I think discussions were necessary as outlined by our spokespersons on this subject last Tuesday and Wednesday, I do not think the Government are going about their business in the proper manner. The Minister for Defence should now come back into the House and make remarks which would obviously be contrary to remarks he made last Tuesday evening in the Second Stage debate. We should start this debate all over again and we need far more time than has been proposed by the Government.

The Taoiseach:    I am sorry that my colleagues on the Opposition benches take this view. The Government are anxious to have this legislation reasonably soon. There is a sequence of events proposed [504] which we all hope will bring about a satisfactory state in regard to representation in the Permanent Defence Forces. By 7 o'clock this evening, if the House agrees the Government proposition, Second Stage of this Bill will have received 23 hours of discussion, and we then propose to give a further considerable period, about 14 hours, for Committee Stage. Therefore, I do not think anybody can reasonably complain that the Bill has been rushed.

We were anxious to try to get agreement from the Opposition Parties but it transpires, if I understand the position correctly, that the principal Opposition Party — Fine Gael — whatever about the other parties, are not prepared to enter into agreement for any conclusion of the debate. If I am wrong please correct me but I understand——

Mr. Dukes:    This House needs to have all the facts and these discussion should be reported back to this House.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Let us hear the Taoiseach without interruption.

The Taoiseach:    I understand the position is that the Fine Gael Party are not prepared at this stage to agree to any conclusion. They want the debate to go on and on and on until eventually it peters out. We cannot accept that and it is not reasonable to ask the Government to do that. In all 23 hours will have been given to Second Stage and a considerable amount of time will be given to Committee Stage. This is all necessary because there is an overwhelming desire and necessity that this legislation is passed so that the position of representation in the Defence Forces can be got on with and brought to a universally satisfactory conclusion.

Mr. Dukes:    It is totally wrong to say that 23 hours——

An Ceann Comhairle:    The matter may not be debated now, there will be ample time for debate on this matter.

[505]Mr. Dukes:    The Taoiseach refuses to let this House know the result of the consultations.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe:    We will not buy a pig in a poke.

Mr. Spring:    Could I seek clarification from the Taoiseach as to when the 23 hours debate was held in this House?

Mr. Dukes:    We have had seven hours so far.

The Taoiseach:    On Tuesday, 13 March there were four and a half hours, on Wednesday, 14 March there were two hours and there will be five and three-quarter hours debate today.

Mr. J. Mitchell:    That does not add up to 23 hours.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe:    Does the Taoiseach want a calculator?

The Taoiseach:    I said that by 7 o'clock this evening there will have been 23 hours.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am putting the question.

Mr. J. Mitchell:    On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am on my feet putting a question and I may not be interrupted.

Mr. Dukes:    On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle:    No.

Mr. J. Mitchell:    Before you put the question——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Have you a legitimate point of order?

Mr. J. Mitchell:    This is a motion before the House and we are entitled to contribute to it before you put the question.

[506]An Ceann Comhairle:    I am putting the question——

Mr. J. Mitchell:    On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle:    I have allowed a brief speech from the Leaders of the respective parties——

Mr. J. Mitchell:    There is a motion before the House——

An Ceann Comhairle:    There will be ample time to discuss the pros and cons of this later on today and tomorrow.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle:    I will not permit a debate now.

A Deputy:  You should refer it to the High Court.

Mr. Dukes:    On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle:    If it is a legitimate point of order you may make it.

Mr. Dukes:    There is a motion before the House that proceedings on the Second Stage No. 6 shall be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. That motion is before the House but the House has not agreed that it will be taken without debate. I submit that the motion is one propertly to be debated by the House.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe:    Exactly.

Mr. Dukes:    I ask you to allow that debate to take place.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Chair has allowed a debate on the matter.

Mr. S. Barrett:    The Chair has not allowed a debate.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I have allowed the normal debate in respect of the Order of Business.

[507](Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am putting the [508] question: “That the proceedings on the Second Stage of No. 6 shall be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m.”

Question declared carried.

Mr. Dukes:    I regret to say, Sir, that I must protest against the way that motion was handled and, in particular, at the curtailment of the debate on it. I give you notice now, Sir, that it is my intention to bring my protest to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

An Ceann Comhairle:    That is the Deputy's privilege.

Mr. S. Barrett:    I wish to raise a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Does it relate to the Order of Business?

Mr. S. Barrett:    Yes. A very serious thing has just happened in this House; Deputies, with no authority on your part, have guillotined a debate on the motion before this House. I would like to know under what Standing Order was I deprived of my right to raise a point of order?

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy must desist.

Mr. S. Barrett:    I am asking a simple question, that is, under what Standing Order was I deprived of my right to raise a point of order?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I was on my feet, Deputy.

Mr. S. Barrett:    May I have an answer to that question?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am on my feet. Deputy, when you asked that question.

Mr. S. Barrett:    I am on my feet.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Barrett, I am on my feet now and I am putting a further question.

Mr. Shatter:    Sir, you cannot silence Members of this House by standing up.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am on my feet.

Mr. S. Barrett:    I too, Sir, am on my feet and I wish to raise a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am not accepting that point of order. The matter is disposed of.

Mr. S. Barrett:    The Standing Orders of this House are there to protect the Members of this House and you, Sir, are here to protect the rights of all Members of this House. I ask you, Sir, under what Standing Order did you deprive me of a right to raise a point of order?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am not going to be cross-examined in respect of my ruling on that matter. There shall be no Private Members' Business today.

Mr. S. Barrett:    We will all be in the High Court very shortly.

[511]An Ceann Comhairle:    Are the proposals in relation to Private Members' Business today agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Dukes:    On the Order of Business, Sir, I am sure the House will join with me in congratulating the Christian Democratic Union in East Germany on re-establishing democratic government in that part of Germany for the first time in 57 years.

Mr. Rabbitte:    They have had it for the past 45 years.

Mr. Dukes:    In East Germany? The Deputy did not notice the difference?

Mr. Quinn:    They moved to the Left before you.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Dukes:    I think some of these Deputies on my right should go and talk to Chancellor Kohl about what has happened in East Germany.

On the Order of Business, there are two points that I wish to raise. First, is it your intention, Sir, to convene a special meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges of this House to consider the implications on the working of this House of the High Court ruling in the recent Norris case? Second, I would like to know when the Taoiseach intends to make an announcement in this House about the date it is proposed to hold the local elections.

Mr. Shatter:    Should we ask the Leader of the Progressive Democrats?

The Taoiseach:    The one person we should not ask is you, Deputy.

Mr. J. Bruton:    The schoolyard outlook at its worst.

Mr. Sheehan:    Will you announce it at the Prince of Wales Hotel this weekend?

[512]Mr. Shatter:    The Fianna Fáil councillors are having a personal meeting at the Prince of Wales Hotel.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Dick Spring is on his feet.

Mr. Dukes:    Will it be the Minister for the Environment, the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, the Minister for Energy or some other extra mural TD who will make the announcement?

An Ceann Comhairle:    Let the House come back to order.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. Connolly):    They are not too anxious.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Spring:    There are two matters that I wish to raise on the Order of Business. First, will the Taoiseach be announcing a date for the holding of the local elections? I think it is in everybody's interest that the Taoiseach might offer some comment in this regard, given the diversity of views between others and the Fianna Fáil Party? Second, given the amount of publicity over the weekend about the proposed curtailment of the Dáil sittings may I suggest that the public would be outraged if the Fianna Fáil Government proposed long adjournments of this House?

The Taoiseach:    I do not think anybody has any intention of having very long adjournments of this House.

Mr. Spring:    The Taoiseach should talk to his Whip about it.

The Taoiseach:    The Deputy should talk to his.

Mr. Spring:    It was proposed that there would be an adjournment for a month and then another month.

[513]The Taoiseach:    The Whips have discussions about these matters, but this House decides them.

Mr. Dukes:    Did the Taoiseach talk to his Whip in regard to this announcement or was he acting on his own initiative?

An Ceann Comhairle:    With regard to Deputy Dukes's other question to me——

Mr. Dukes:    I see the dust from the Taoiseach's heels as he retreats from the position he was in last week.

Mr. Connolly:    You are the right one to talk about retreats.

Mr. Dukes:    May I ask if you have given consideration to the question I put?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I was about to reply to that Deputy Dukes. If the House so desires, I shall have it placed on the agenda for an early meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Priviliges. I take it that is the wish of the House.

Mr. Spring:    May I clarify something, a Cheann Comhairle? The Taoiseach would seem to give the impression that there has not been any request for a long adjournment during the month of April and for an adjournment during the month of June——

An Ceann Comhairle:    I thought that matter was disposed of, Deputy.

Mr. Spring:    The matter should not be disposed of flippantly.

An Ceann Comhairle:    There are other ways of raising that matter.

Mr. Spring:    As recently as five minutes ago, the Labour Party Whip was approached yet again to agree to an adjournment for the month of April and the month of June. I think that would be against the best interests of this House.

Mr. Rabbitte:    May I ask the Taoiseach [514] if he will make time available to the House to debate what transpired in the High Court in camera hearing in regard to the disposal of the Irish business of ICI?

An Ceann Comhairle:    That does not arise now, Deputy.

Mr. Rabbitte:    I wish to ask the Taoiseach if he will make time available to discuss the £110 million advance by the Minister for Finance from the compensation fund.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Please, Deputy Rabbitte, desist. Will the Deputy please resume his seat? The matter is not in order now.

Mr. Rabbitte:    I raised this matter on three different occasions.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Rabbitte is showing defiance for the Chair.

Mr. Rabbitte:    No, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I have said it twice. I repeat, the matter is not in order now, Deputy.

Mr. Rabbitte:    Is it not in order for me to raise it now that the matter is no longer sub judice? Is it in order for me to raise this important matter of why £110 million from the compensation fund——

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy is clearly seeking to circumvent my ruling in this matter. My office will be glad to assist the Deputy in dealing with the matter properly in this House.

Mr. Rabbitte:    Surely I can seek your permission to raise the matter on the Adjournment?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I will not tolerate this subterfuge anymore, Deputy. If the Deputy wished to raise the matter on the Adjournment he should have mentioned it in the first instance, without being so long out of order.

[515]A Deputy:  These proceedings would do credit to——

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am not promising anything in the matter.

Mr. Ferris:    With your permission, Sir, I wish to raise on the Adjournment the lack of speech therapists in the special schools of Scoil Cormac and Scoil Aongusa, Cashel.

At this point, may I take the opportunity to welcome the Minister for Agriculture and Food to the House? I hope he will use his good offices to assist the release of the farmers who are in jail.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe:    I would like to raise with the Taoiseach the question of the establishment of a committee of this House on crime, one was promised six months ago, the need for a full debate in this House on crime in the light of the horrific crimes which took place over the weekend, and the need to make extra resources available to the Garda Síochána, in particular over long week-ends——

An Ceann Comhairle:    That should be discussed with the Whips.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe:    I wish to focus attention on the committee on crime which was promised six months ago, but which has not yet been set up.

The Taoiseach:    It is on its way.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe:    Can the Taoiseach give us any indication of when it will be set up?

The Taoiseach:    As soon as possible.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe:    Within a matter of weeks?

The Taoiseach:    I could not say that.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe:    Before the recess?

[516]The Taoiseach:    I am just as anxious as the Deputy to get it established but if we get a bit more co-operation all round all these things can happen.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe:    There will be plenty of co-operation. We have been waiting for this committee for six months.

Mr. Davern:    With your permission I would like to raise on the Adjournment the problems which have arisen in our constituency and in many others throughout the country arising out of the failure of Coillte Teoranta to supply family owned saw mills and the immediate danger to 1,000 jobs all over the country.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I will be in touch with the Deputy concerning that matter.

Mr. Enright:    I would like to know when the Government intend forwarding to Brussels Ireland's application in relation to disadvantaged areas. This is dragging on for some considerable period——

An Ceann Comhairle:    This does not deal with legislation.

Mr. Enright:    I would also like to protest and object to the jailing of three County Offaly farmers——

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy should find a more suitable way of raising that matter. Deputy Spring has been offering.

Mr. Enright:    I ask the Taoiseach to tell us if he intends initiating discussions with ERAD or the IFA to solve this problem.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Enright, let us have some respect here for order this morning.

Mr. Enright:    With the greatest of respect, it is essential that somebody should protest at the inequities and injustices——

[517]An Ceann Comhairle:    There are ways and means of dealing with such matters.

Mr. Enright:    It is an absolute disgrace and the farmers in County Offaly and elsewhere are disgusted about what is happening.

Mr. Spring:    I seek to raise on the Adjournment the hardship imposed on local authority tenants in County Kerry arising out of rent increases of between 100 and 300 per cent.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I will be in touch with the Deputy concerning that matter.

Mr. Browne:    (Carlow-Kilkenny): I seek permission to raise on the Adjournment the lack of library facilities at the RTC in Carlow.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I will be in touch with the Deputy.

Mr. Sheehan:    In view of my unsuccessful attempt to raise on the Adjournment last week the failure of the Government to submit Ireland's application to Brussels in relation to disadvantaged areas, once again I seek permission to raise it this evening.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I will be in touch with the Deputy concerning that matter.

Mrs. T. Ahearn:    Once again I seek permission to raise on the Adjournment the exceptional number of nurses employed on a temporary and part-time capacity at St. Joseph's Hospital, Clonmel, and Our Lady's Hospital, Cashel.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. M. Higgins:    I wish to raise on the Adjournment the implications for Ireland of the paper circulated by the European Commission which suggests that no additional funds will be made available to mitigate the effects of European Monetary Union.

[518]An Ceann Comhairle:    I will be in touch with the Deputy.

Mr. Garland:    Once again I seek permission to raise on the Adjournment the unsatisfactory response from Aer Rianta to the legitimate representations made by St. Margaret's Community Council about the new runway at Dublin Airport.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. D'Arcy:    I wish to raise on the Adjournment the grounding of the farm development officers in County Wexford.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I will be in touch with the Deputy.

Mr. Jacob:    I wish to support my colleague, Deputy Davern, who raised the plight of the small timbermen, and I seek permission to raise that matter on the Adjournment in view of the difficulty they are having in getting the type of timber they need.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Quinn:    In the light of the extraordinary change in the pace of events in Europe and with regard to Ireland's expectations for regional and fiscal policy and tax harmonisation, I ask the Taoiseach to tell us if the Government intend reconsidering their decision to oppose the establishment of a foreign affairs committee so that these matters can be discussed in a comprehensive manner.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Quinn, please desist, as clearly this is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Mr. Quinn:    It relates to the establishment of committees, with due respect.

An Ceann Comhairle:    It is clearly not in order now.

[519]Mr. Quinn:    Similar requests have been made of the Taoiseach on previous occasions.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The House made a decision in respect of this matter.

The Taoiseach:    I have already offered to arrange a debate.

Mr. Quinn:    My colleague, Deputy Higgins, is attempting to raise with about 40 other people tonight a specific matter of enormous fiscal importance to all the Members of this House. I respectfully suggest that a working committee, perhaps only for six months initially, would be able to resolve some of these matters in a much more constructive manner than that in which we are trying to go about our business at the moment.

The Taoiseach:    This matter was decided by the House quite recently.

Mr. Quinn:    Since we made our decision there have been dramatic changes which have undermined our regional policy.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I have given the Deputy some latitude even though he was out of order.

Mr. Quinn:    I instance Mr. Delors' statement. He is rewriting the rules as we go along.

Mr. Moynihan:    I wish to raise on the Adjournment the continuing concern of the communities of Kenmare, Sneem and Waterville about the development of fish farming in Kenmare River.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Flanagan:    Can the Minister for Justice tell us when he intends filling the vacancies on the Legal Aid Board?

[520]Minister for Justice (Mr. Burke):    The Deputy should put down a question.

An Ceann Comhairle:    It is not in order.

Mr. O'Shea:    I again seek permission to raise on the Adjournment the need for the Government to deliver on their commitment to decentralise a Government Department to Waterford.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I will communicate with the Deputy.

Miss Flaherty:    Does the Taoiseach have any plans to make a personal statement to the House apologising for his remarks about the Conference of the Major Religious Superiors of Ireland last week?

An Ceann Comhairle:    Please, Deputy; Deputy Yates was offering.

Mr. Yates:    Three weeks ago I asked the Taoiseach on the Order of Business when it was proposed to take the amending legislation on clinical trials and he replied “shortly”. I now ask the Taoiseach to tell us if it is proposed to take this emergency legislation this session in view of the fact that a lot of hospital research has been relocated in the United Kingdom and AIDS patients have to go to the United Kingdom for certain essential treatment. Will the Taoiseach bring forward this emergency legislation this session?

The Taoiseach:    Because of the enormous amount of time we are giving to the Defence Forces legislation it will not be possible to fit it in this session.

Mr. Byrne:    In the light of continuing lay-offs and planned redundancies in the coal industry following the statement made by the Minister for the Environment that he intends to ban the marketing, sale and distribution of coal, can we be told today when we are likely to see the regulations before the House?

[521]An Ceann Comhairle:    The regulations do not arise now, Deputy.

Mr. Byrne:    May I raise this matter on the Adjournment?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I will communicate with the Deputy. Let us proceed to the Order of Business proper.

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