Order of Business.Wednesday, 20 April 1994 |
Dáil Éireann Debate
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The Taoiseach:
It is proposed to take item No. 6. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) the proceedings on the Second Stage of No. 6, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.45 p.m. and the Minister for Finance shall be called on not later than 6.30 p.m. to make a speech in reply; (2) Private Members' Business shall be No. 9 and the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m.
An Ceann Comhairle:
Is the proposal for dealing with No. 6 satisfactory and agreed?
Mr. J. Bruton:
No, Sir. Before we conclude the Second Stage of the Finance Bill the House should know what are the terms of reference of the Star Chamber that has been set up to plan the Fianna Fáil-Labour house tax and to know whether the report will be published before 9 June next so that the people can pass judgment on it.
Mr. Yates:
When the polls are closed.
An Ceann Comhairle:
Surely these matters can be adverted to in the course of the debate on the Finance Bill.
[1198]The Taoiseach:
Deputy Bruton should stop flogging a dead horse; he tried it yesterday and got nowhere.
Mr. J. Bruton:
Sir, I am afraid this horse is running in the Reynolds-Spring colours and will not run very far or very fast, that is if we have anything to do with it. We would like this matter to be flushed out before the European elections. We would like to see this horse in the parade ring before the European elections. We do not want it reintroduced after the elections.
Mr. Yates:
Five hundred pounds per house.
Miss Harney:
I raised with the Taoiseach yesterday the reason the Community Support Framework plan had not been published on 8 April in accordance with Community regulations but the Taoiseach did not reply.
The Taoiseach:
It was out of order; that is why I did not reply.
Miss Harney:
However, his spokesperson later said and I quote: “The plan will be published after the election” A spokesperson in The Sunday Press told us that the plan will be published at the end of April. Will the Taoiseach say when we will have the plan?
The Taoiseach:
When the Chair lets me I will.
An Ceann Comhairle:
Deputy Harney, I said yesterday and I repeat today——
Miss Harney:
We had one spokesperson on Sunday and a different one yesterday. Why did the Taoiseach not reply?
An Ceann Comhairle:
Deputy Harney, there is a convention in this House that, when the Chair rises, the Member in possession resumes his or her seat. I would rather expect that Leaders of the Opposition parties would obey that rule.
[1199]Miss Harney:
I cannot question the spokesperson so I am asking the Taoiseach.
An Ceann Comhairle:
I will assist the Deputy in raising the matter if she will strive to put it in order at this time.
Mr. Rabbitte:
A Cheann Comhairle, I was going to ask the Minister for Finance how he finds the bus service.
The Taoiseach:
He is supporting public transport.
Mr. Rabbitte:
Can we establish at this point whether the Minister for the Environment has overruled the Taoiseach, whether this poll tax is dead or is it that their deficit on the National Development Plan will be made up——
An Ceann Comhairle:
There is very wide scope for debate on the Finance Bill, as the Deputy knows, and I gather we are about to resume the debate on that Bill.
Mr. Barrett:
Will the Taoiseach say when the proposed amendments to the Local Government Bill, 1994 will be published? Will those amendments include one to allow for a new poll tax or rates?
An Ceann Comhairle:
Let us not anticipate amendments to that Bill.
The Taoiseach:
No, they will not. I am sorry to disappoint Deputy Barrett, Deputy John Bruton or any other Deputy over there; this is a dead horse and they should not be flogging it because they are merely wasting their time.
Mrs. Owen:
The foot was taken out of the mouth.
The Taoiseach:
What I put on the record yesterday — and if we had a little bit of ciúnas it would be helpful — was [1200] that despite what the Opposition, with all their scaremongering, would like the people to believe, this Government is committed to reducing the overall burden on taxpayers, including householders — which Deputy Yates might be interested to know — during our term of office. Time will prove us right.
Mr. J. Bruton:
Sir, I do not believe the Taoiseach is telling the truth here in the House.
An Ceann Comhairle:
Please, Deputy Bruton.
Mr. J. Bruton:
I believe he is attempting to mislead the House.
An Ceann Comhairle:
Deputy Bruton, please——
The Taoiseach:
The Deputy should withdraw that remark.
Mr. J. Bruton:
I do not believe this is a dead horse. I do not believe the Taoiseach is telling the truth.
An Ceann Comhairle:
Deputy Bruton, you have made a very serious allegation against a Member of this House. You may not say that a Member of this House was guilty of an untruth or deception of any kind.
Mr. J. Bruton:
Sir, the evidence is there. The Government has set up a committee to investigate the house tax. How can it possibly be a dead horse when they have set up a committee to investigate how to do this?
Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications (Mr. Cowen):
Deputy Bruton himself is a dead horse. That is his problem.
An Ceann Comhairle:
Deputy Bruton, I said earlier that when the Chair rises the Member in possession should resume [1201] his or her seat. I would expect you, as Leader of your party, to give good example in this regard.
Mr. Harte:
A Cheann Comhairle——
An Ceann Comhairle:
Order, Deputy Harte, be seated, please.
Mr. Barrett:
Is this primary or secondary school, Sir?
An Ceann Comhairle:
Deputy Bruton, you have made a serious allegation that the Taoiseach was guilty of an untruth. That remark must be withdrawn.
Mr. J. Bruton:
If it makes life any easier for you, Sir, I will withdraw it here in the House and repeat it outside the House.
An Ceann Comhairle:
I am now proceeding to——
Mr. Harte:
A Cheann Comhairle, on a point of order——
An Ceann Comhairle:
Deputy Harte, be careful about points of order being used as an attack on the Chair.
Mr. Harte:
As I reminded you last week, Sir, you and I came into the House on the same day and we know each other quite well.
An Ceann Comhairle:
That is not a point of order. Let us hear the point of order.
Mr. Harte:
When you and I came into this House the word “lie” had to be withdrawn but the word “untruth” was never withdrawn. That is my point of order. When did this convention change?
An Ceann Comhairle:
As I said earlier, I will not be lectured by you, Deputy Harte.
Mr. Harte:
I do not like you being [1202] disrespectful to me. I am here by the same right as you are.
An Ceann Comhairle:
If anyone is being disrespectful it is you.
Mr. Harte:
The people who sent me here do not like it.
An Ceann Comhairle:
Deputy Harte rises on a point of order to attack the Chair in a disgraceful fashion.
Mr. Harte:
You should treat me the same as you treat members of the Government.
An Ceann Comhairle:
I am proceeding to the business of the House. Deputy Enda Kenny has been offering.
Mr. J. Bruton:
I want an honest and complete statement about the terms of reference to the Committee on the house tax before we finalise the arrangements for the Finance Bill.
An Ceann Comhairle:
You cannot do so now. I called Deputy Enda Kenny but he is not responding. Deputy Harney.
The Taoiseach:
What house tax?
Mr. J. Bruton:
The Taoiseach has announced the setting up of a property tax.
Mr. Durkan:
The Taoiseach announced it.
Mr. J. Bruton:
What was the Taoiseach talking about in Killarney?
The Taoiseach:
If the Deputy had been there he would have heard.
An Ceann Comhairle:
If this disorderly conduct proceeds I propose to adjourn the House for a period.
Mr. G. Mitchell:
On a point of order, is there any point in having a Parliament [1203] if you continually reflect on the Opposition in this way? It is our job to pursue the Government as we are doing. How dare you continue to reflect on the Opposition in this way. It is totally unacceptable, Sir.
An Ceann Comhairle:
In accordance with the Order of Business, if Deputy Mitchell feels I will sit here and be abused, I will not. I am calling Deputy Harney.
Mr. G. Mitchell:
Sir, I will not sit here and allow you reflect on the Opposition morning after morning. We are here to ask questions of the Government which are of importance to the people. It is absurd that Deputy Bruton can say outside the House what he cannot say in the House.
An Ceann Comhairle:
This is not Question Time. I will not permit the Order of Business to be turned into a mini-question time. You are supreme in such matters. If you want to change the Order of Business into a mini-question time do so and I will loyally abide by your decision.
Mr. G. Mitchell:
It is absurd that Deputy Bruton can say outside the House what he cannot say in the Houase.
Mr. J. Bruton:
What is the point in proceeding with the Finance Bill if the Government has a secret agenda and a secret committee whose conclusions they have no intention of publishing until after the election?
Miss Harney:
There seems to be confusion when members of the Government go to Killarney so perhaps they should stay away from there. In relation to a motion the Government intend to put before the House I wish to complain that the Government did not follow the procedure of consulting the Opposition. The Tánaiste and the Minister for Enterprise and Employment, while in Opposition complained here on 14 December 1989 [1204] that the then Government did not consult with Leaders of the Opposition parties in relation to the appointment of the Ombudsman. I regret the Government did not choose to consult with the Opposition. This is a matter for the House and not a matter for the Government.
An Ceann Comhairle:
This matter is not in order at this time.
Mr. Barrett:
You are like a school teacher standing up.
An Ceann Comhairle:
This is not in order. If you want to change the procedures please do so. While the present procedure is before me I have to administer it. That is my function in this matter.
Miss Harney:
I am speaking about a matter that is due to come before the House. The Government was in breach of the spirit of the Act in not consulting with the leaders of the Opposition. This is not a matter for a majority Government putting through their own nominee. It should have been done by consultation. I regret that what the Tánaiste said on 19 December 1989 was not done.
Mr. G. Mitchell:
On a point of order——
An Ceann Comhairle:
I am on my feet. I am about to speak Deputy and I cannot entertain a point of order. I must ask if item No. 6 in relation to the Finance Bill——
Mr. Barrett:
Can we not respond to Deputy Harney about the Ombudsman?
An Ceann Comhairle:
I have to put the question. There is no legislation promised in relation to that matter.
Mr. Rabbitte:
Was there no relative left, Sir?
Question put: “That the proposals for dealing with item No. 6 be agreed to”.
[1207] Question declared carried.
An Ceann Comhairle:
Are the proposals for dealing with No. 9, that Private Members' Business shall conclude at 8.30 p.m., satisfactory? Agreed.
Mr. J. Bruton:
I do not know if this is a point of order but I hope the Chair will be able to assist me as I do not want to be in the position where I am in conflict with you, Sir. A statement made here by the Taoiseach is in direct conflict with a report which appears on the front page of a major national newspaper today in which it is indicated that the Government has set up a committee to investigate the property tax. Will the Government agree to refer the terms of reference of this committee to the Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs so that we can discover who is telling the truth about Government intentions in regard to a property tax?
The Taoiseach:
I should not have to comment on the question of who is telling the truth. It is beneath the Leader of the Opposition to make such a rash charge or innuendo that I have misled the House or told an untruth.
Mr. Rabbitte:
What about the £8 billion?
The Taoiseach:
Last year the Government set up a tax strategy committee whose sole terms of reference were to examine ways and means by which the overall burden on the PAYE taxpayer could be reduced during the lifetime of this Government. No new committee has been set up for any specific purpose that Deputy Bruton may like to allude to. Those are the facts. We are in the run-up to an election and I am aware, like Members opposite, that these issues give rise to political scaremongering——
Mr. G. Mitchell:
The Taoiseach was scared by the Minister for the Environment.
The Taoiseach:
——but the Deputy is [1208] wasting his time in trying to run that one up the flagpole as no one will follow him.
Mr. J. Bruton:
I, and the House, and the country in due course, will be the judge of that. The position is——
An Ceann Comhairle:
The House will appreciate that we cannot have a debate on the Order of Business; it is not in order. If it wants to change the Order of Business I will gladly implement it but these matters are out of order now. There will be ample scope in the debate on the Finance Bill, which is about to commence, to deal with them.
Mr. J. Bruton:
Sir, the problem is that in a 45 minute speech the Minister for Finance failed to make any reference to the Taoiseach's peculiar remarks in Killarney.
The Taoiseach:
He should not have to.
Mr. J. Bruton:
The only way we can find out what the Taoiseach was on about is to raise it this morning.
The Taoiseach:
The Deputy can raise it in the debate on the Finance Bill. What more does he want?
Ms McManus:
We were given a promise in this House that the national health strategy would be published. I understand that this strategy is to be unveiled at the IMO conference. Will the Taoiseach note——
The Taoiseach:
It is out of order.
An Ceann Comhairle:
What about legislation, Deputy?
Ms McManus:
I would like to ask the Taoiseach a question. It seems to be more important to inform the medical profession first before this democratically elected forum.
An Ceann Comhairle:
The Deputy must know that what she is raising is not relevant to the Order of Business.
[1209]Ms McManus:
Will the Taoiseach enable us to debate the national health strategy, which is very important?
An Ceann Comhairle:
I am sorry but I cannot assist the Deputy.
Mr. E. Kenny:
Last Sunday the Taoiseach attended a three tier summit conference in Carrobrinoge, Castlebar with the European Commissioner. In view of the fact that certain personnel are straining at the leash, is it the Taoiseach's intention to hold the by-elections before 9 June and to move the writs in the House at an early date?
The Taoiseach:
I intend to move the writ in the House at an early date.
Mr. Yates:
How many Fianna Fáil candidates will there be?
Mr. Durkan:
So there is someone making decisions.
Mr. E. Kenny:
May I inquire if it will be moved today?
An Ceann Comhairle:
We cannot debate the matter now.
Mr. Crawford:
I have asked the Taoiseach previously when he will introduce legislation relating to occupiers liability.
Mr. E. O'Keeffe:
They will break the record with that one, they have raised it so often.
Mr. Crawford:
We will discuss today the promotion of the tourism industry and the Minister's proposal to allocate extra funding for this purpose. How can we promote this industry when property owners are not protected?
An Ceann Comhairle:
The Deputy has [1210] legitimately asked a question and I thank him for it.
Mr. E. O'Keeffe:
They have nothing else left to raise.
An Ceann Comhairle:
I need no advice from Deputy Harte on these matters.
Mr. Harte:
With all due respect, it looks as if you do.
The Taoiseach:
The latest information is that the Law Reform Commission is in the process of finalising its report and as soon as we receive it we will take action.
Mr. J. Bruton:
Is the Government planning to make any amendments to the legislation relating to the Ombudsman in view of the fact, in defiance of precedent, it did not consult with the Opposition about the appointment of the Ombudsman? In 1986 the Government consulted the then Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Haughey, very extensively before Michael Mills was appointed.
An Ceann Comhairle:
Is legislation promised in this area?
Mr. J. Bruton:
Is legislation not necessary in view of the fact that precedent was broken through the failure to consult with the Opposition about this important appointment?
An Ceann Comhairle:
I am sure the Deputy will find ample ways and means of raising that matter further.
Mr. Rabbitte:
The Minister of State at the Department of Social Welfare is back in her favourite seat — in camera shot — behind the Taoiseach. Does she intend to make a personal statement to the House about misleading women in Killarney about taxing unemployment benefit?
An Ceann Comhairle:
I thought the [1211] Deputy had something legitimate to raise at this time.
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