Prelude
Order of Business.
Estimates, 1977: Motion.
International Agreements: Motion.
Dublin Convention: Motion.
Estimates, 1997.
Vote 1: President's Establishment (Revised Estimate).
Vote 2: Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament (Revised Estimate).
Vote 3: Department of the Taoiseach (Revised Estimate).
Vote 4: Office of the Tánaiste (Revised Estimate).
Vote 5: Central Statistics Office (Revised Estimate).
Vote 6: Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised Estimate).
Vote 7: Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised Estimate).
Vote 8: Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised Estimate).
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised Estimate).
Vote 10: Office of Public Works (Revised Estimate).
Vote 11: State Laboratory (Revised Estimate).
Vote 12: Secret Service (Revised Estimate).
Vote 13: Office of the Attorney General (Revised Estimate).
Vote 14: Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised Estimate).
Vote 15: Valuation and Ordnance Survey (Revised Estimate).
Vote 16: Civil Service Commission (Revised Estimate).
Vote 17: Office of the Ombudsman (Revised Estimate).
Vote 18: Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised Estimate).
Vote 19: Office of the Minister for Justice (Revised Estimate).
Vote 20: Garda Síochána (Revised Estimate).
Vote 21: Prisons (Revised Estimate).
Vote 22: Courts (Revised Estimate).
Vote 23: Land Registry and Registry of Deeds (Revised Estimate).
Vote 24: Charitable Donations and Bequests (Revised Estimate).
Vote 25: Environment (Revised Estimate).
Vote 26: Office of the Minister for Education (Revised Estimate).
Vote 27: First Level Education (Revised Estimate).
Vote 28: Second Level and Further Education (Revised Estimate).
Vote 29: Third Level and Further Education (Revised Estimate).
Vote 30: Marine (Revised Estimate).
Vote 31: Agriculture, Food and Forestry (Revised Estimate).
Vote 32: Transport, Energy and Communications (Revised Estimate).
Vote 33: Equality and Law Reform (Revised Estimate).
Vote 34: Enterprise and Employment (Revised Estimate).
Vote 35: Tourism and Trade (Revised Estimate).
Vote 36: Defence (Revised Estimate).
Vote 37: Army Pensions (Revised Estimate).
Vote 38: Foreign Affairs (Revised Estimate).
Vote 39: International Co-operation (Revised Estimate).
Vote 40: Social Welfare (Revised Estimate).
Vote 41: Health (Revised Estimate).
Vote 42: Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht (Revised Estimate).
Vote 43: National Gallery (Revised Estimate).
Vote 44: An Chomhairle Ealaíon (Revised Estimate).
Vote 45: Increases in Remuneration and Pensions (Revised Estimate).
Vote 46: Flood Relief (Revised Estimate).
Order of Business (Resumed).
ICC Bank (Amendment) Bill, 1997: Second Stage.
ICC Bank (Amendment) Bill, 1997: Committee and Remaining Stages.
Dissolution of Dáil.
[729] Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m.
Paidir. Prayer.The Taoiseach: It is proposed to take 24b — Technical Motion re. Revised Estimates for Public Services; No. 11 — Motion re. Approval of Agreement between Ireland and the Czech Republic for the Promotion and Reciprocal Protection of Investments; No. 12 — Motion re. Approval of the Dublin Convention; No. 13 — Revised Estimates for the Public Services [1997] [Votes 1 — 46]; No. 3 — ICC Bank (Amendment) Bill, 1997, Second and Remaining Stages.
It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 24b, 11 and 12 shall be decided without debate and any division demanded on No. 24b shall be taken forthwith; the Revised Estimates for the Public Services shall be moved together and decided without debate by one question which shall be put from the Chair, and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; the Second and Remaining Stages of No. 3 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 11.45 a.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments to the Bill, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance; and, in the event of the Bill concluding before 11.45 a.m., the sitting shall stand suspended until that time.
An Ceann Comhairle: Are the proposals for dealing with Nos. 24b, 11 and 12 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 13, Revised Estimates for the Public Services, satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 3 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed.
Ms O'Donnell: There was meant to be a debate on the motion re. approval of the Dublin Convention. There are crucial issues of relevance and concern to Amnesty in relation to our treatment [730] of refugees. It is inappropriate to pass this motion through Dáil Éireann without an adequate debate. During the Seanad debate on the Refugee Bill, the Minister gave an assurance that there would be a special appeal mechanism in relation to Dublin Convention decisions. Those procedures are not yet in place, neither are many of the procedures in the Refugee Act. We are not in agreement with the proposed procedure.
An Ceann Comhairle: The points raised by the Deputy are in order.
The Taoiseach: It is important to ratify this convention. It was signed by Ireland in 1990 but it has not yet been ratified. It is important that the Dáil now do so. The convention provides protections and procedures for dealing with the issue in a very fair way and we should not procrastinate further.
Ms O'Donnell: It may well be that the convention should be ratified——
An Ceann Comhairle: We may not debate the matter now.
Ms O'Donnell: I do not wish to debate it. However, it is not appropriate that this motion be passed through the House without a debate. The convention may well have to be ratified by Ireland but it should not go through without a debate. There is no urgency——
An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has made her point. Is the proposal agreed? Agreed.
Ms O'Donnell: Amnesty International has faxed me with urgent representations on this matter.
An Ceann Comhairle: I am sorry Deputy, but you have had some latitude from the Chair. I take it that the item is agreed?
Ms O'Donnell: It is very important that it should go on the record that this motion——
An Ceann Comhairle: I hesitate to ask if there is anything relevant on the Order of Business.
Mr. B. Ahern: It is even less relevant to talk about pending legislation. One way or another the Taoiseach will attend an important summit on 16 and 17 June. A number of important issues have to be dealt with at that summit which are fundamental to the future of the country. Considering that the Dáil will not be sitting, will Fianna Fáil be consulted before final decisions are made on any important issues? It is only right as we are dealing with issues such as neutrality, the EU budget, the Commission and many others. We should be consulted.
In the normal course of events they would be discussed in the Dáil. In recent general elections there was a moratorium on IDA announcements [731] of any kind. I seek confirmation from the Taoiseach——
Mr. D. Ahern: And lotto money.
An Ceann Comhairle: Ciúnas, let us hear the Deputy in possession without interruption.
Mr. B. Ahern: It might sound frivolous to those who have not been in Government before but this practice was followed by successive Taoiseach in at least ten or 12 Dáileanna.
Mr. G. Mitchell: There are no jobs to announce.
Mr. B. Ahern: Is that still the position? I am not referring to lotto money, although I am aware millions of pounds were given out yesterday.
An Ceann Comhairle: Let us have good order, please.
Mr. D. Ahern: This is the last time they will all be together.
Mr. Cowen: Bank robbers anonymous.
Mr. Dukes: Has the Deputy had a meeting with them lately?
An Ceann Comhairle: Let us not sully our proceedings now. Let us hear Deputy Bertie Ahern without interruption from either side of the House.
Mr. E. Byrne: We all know about the company he is keeping — Gerry Adams.
An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Byrne should desist.
Mrs. O'Rourke: Look at who is talking.
Mr. N. Treacy: Where are the printing machines?
Mr. D. Ahern: At least, we can spell “development”.
Mr. Cowen: Bank robbers anonymous.
Mr. Sheehan: The Deputy is a fair old bank robber himself.
Mr. E. O'Keeffe: The Deputy should withdraw that remark.
[732]An Ceann Comhairle: I respectfully submit that these goings on should be left to the hustings.
Mr. B. Ahern: That is very good advice. As a former Minister for Finance, the Taoiseach would know there is a convention in the Civil Service since its foundation that civil servants act in a particular way during general elections. This is set down in guidelines of which the Minister of Finance is aware. Given that there are now political people working in ministerial offices, will this convention continue?
Mr. D. Ahern: The Taoiseach will have to consult with Dick.
The Taoiseach: I will have no difficulty in having consultations with the Opposition parties at any time where that is in the national interest. I will be happy to have consultations at any time on European matters. There will be no deceleration or acceleration of the rate of IDA announcements in the next few weeks. Unlike previous occasions, the rate of announcements by the IDA and the rate of job creation is unprecedented.
The Taoiseach: There should be no interference for any reason with the flow of announcements or the making of business arrangements for the announcement of new employment opportunities for our people.
Mr. D. Ahern: The Taoiseach manipulates them.
The Taoiseach: Any guidelines issued in regard to the matter to which the Deputy referred will be respected.
Mr. D. Ahern: We will be watching.
Miss Harney: We should all be very happy as the sun is out this morning and the rainbow will be out in a few weeks.
Miss Harney: The Minister, Deputy Dukes, does not like sound bites but if one cannot say it in a sound bite it is not worth saying.
Mr. Dukes: That is the story of the Progressive Democrats.
Miss Harney: Will the Taoiseach indicate when it is proposed that the Dáil will reconvene after the general election?
The Taoiseach: The rainbow always prevails over the shower.
Mr. T. Kitt: There is some shower over there.
Mr. D. Ahern: The rainbow is like Knock Airport, an apparition.
An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy John O'Donoghue.
Mr. O'Donoghue: It is nice to see that, as always, the Taoiseach has taken his prompting well from the Marcel Marceau of the rainbow.
Mr. Spring: Explain that to Jackie Healy Rae.
Mr. Dukes: We have a new literary Fianna Fáil.
Mr. O'Donoghue: Following the Brink's-Allied raid on 2 February 1995 the Minister for Justice and the Government promised this House that they would introduce regulations to regulate the security industry as soon as possible. Since “as soon as possible” clearly does not mean approximately two and a half years——
An Ceann Comhairle: Is legislation promised in this area?
Mr. O'Donoghue: It is promised in relation to regulations. Given that the Government has failed to introduce these regulations, will the Taoiseach give an assurance to the House before he and his party sail off into the deep blue yonder that he will support them on the Opposition benches?
Mr. Creed: The Deputy will be the security for Jackie Healy Rae.
The Taoiseach: The Deputy has raised a serious question, which the Government has been addressing. There is a need for regulation of the security industry. However, it is important to recognise that this industry has many types of manifestation where different types of regulation are appropriate. The Government has established an independently chaired working group which includes the industry to draw up the necessary regulations. This matter is of considerable importance and I thank Deputy O'Donoghue for raising it.
Mr. Cowen: Yesterday the Taoiseach seemed to indicate on the Order of Business that it would be impossible for the Minister for Health to appear before a committee of the House. The Minister for Health subsequently suggested that he would like to appear before the committee if he had time. Will the Taoiseach provide this time before he pulls down the shutters on this Administration, or does accountability mean nothing, [734] particularly given that the man beside him has been a paragon of virtue in that regard for a long time?
An Ceann Comhairle: This matter was the subject of extensive debate in the House during Private Members' Business yesterday and Tuesday and I will not permit a rehash of those proceedings now. The Deputy may not proceed along those lines and must find some other way of dealing with the matter.
Mr. Cowen: I will seek another way. As you have often stated, a Cheann Comhairle, you are the defender of the rights of Members of the House in terms of the proceedings. This committee will not meet because the man who is supposed to be leading the country has decided it will not meet.
An Ceann Comhairle: I have no control over committees of the House.
Mr. Cowen: The Minister for Health has indicated that he wants to come before the committee.
An Ceann Comhairle: The House should be slow to interfere in the internal affairs of a committee.
Mr. Cowen: The Taoiseach, Tánaiste and Minister for Social Welfare lecture us about accountability——
An Ceann Comhairle: Please resume your seat, Deputy.
Mr. Cowen: ——yet it has been decided that we will not have a debate. Their arrogance and contempt will be judged by the people.
An Ceann Comhairle: Please resume your seat, Deputy.
Mr. D. Ahern: On a point of order on that matter——
An Ceann Comhairle: Please, Deputy, do not persist. I will not allow a repeat of the debate that took place on this subject. Please desist.
Mr. D. Ahern: We look to you to defend our rights.
An Ceann Comhairle: That is right.
Mr. D. Ahern: A committee of this House was requested to meet in relation to this matter. There appears to have been some misunderstanding. The Government Deputies did not attend the meeting yesterday in regard to the Brigid McCole issue and the Minister coming before the committee.
[735]An Ceann Comhairle: I must repeat it is not for us to interfere in that committee's——
Mr. D. Ahern: At the direction of the chairman of that committee, it was arranged that a meeting would be held at 2.30 p.m. today. Somebody is playing cat and mouse with the committees of this House.
Mr. Cowen: Will the Taoiseach ensure we can meet at 2.30 p.m. today? He will be aware that if he dissolves the Dáil before then, that debate cannot take place. Will he give an undertaking to the House that the committee can meet at 2.30 p.m. today?
Mr. D. Ahern: He gave the chairman his instruction. He finally got him to agree.
Mr. Cowen: Has the Taoiseach nothing to say? His silence is deafening.
An Ceann Comhairle: Please resume your seat, Deputy.
Mr. T. Kitt: As the Taoiseach marches off to the Shelbourne, will he assure the House the three coalition parties are united on the legal strategy in the McCole case? I warn him that the Labour Party will hang him out to dry before the election takes place.
Mr. E. O'Keeffe: We passed important legislation in this House, the Metrology Act, some months ago. I understand an inspector has not been appointed in the south east, particularly the Cork region. I ask the Taoiseach to intervene in this matter because taxi meters cannot be stamped. That is important in regard to replacing the old weights and measures, and it will be an issue in the election.
An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has made his point.
Mr. E. O'Keeffe: I want an assurance from the Taoiseach in regard to the Metrology Act.
An Ceann Comhairle: This is not Question Time.
Mr. E. O'Keeffe: I am asking about legislation that was passed into law by this House.
The Taoiseach: To assist Deputy O'Keeffe, my understanding is that the service under the new Act for the inspection commenced on 12 May and is now proceeding.
Mr. E. O'Keeffe: Will we have an inspector in the Cork area?
Mr. Davern: Deputy Sheehan can take up the matter during the election.
[736]Mr. Sheehan: They came to me yesterday looking for Deputy Ned O'Keeffe.
Mr. Callely: Yesterday the Taoiseach refused to comment on Government demands for savings in the health services which will further impact on the provision of services. As we all know, rainbows do not last and before this rainbow comes to an end——
Mr. Callely: ——will the Taoiseach agree to withdraw those demands?
Mr. Rabbitte: Where did Deputy Callely get the Brylcream?
Mr. Callely: The Taoiseach will not comment.
An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Callely must desist.
Mr. N. Ahern: Will the Chair clarify the position in relation to questions on today's Order Paper? Under the precedent set last year, when the last day of the session was cancelled due to a funeral, will the Taoiseach arrange for written answers to be issued today should events take place before 2.30 p.m.?
An Ceann Comhairle: I understand there will be no replies to questions if the House is dissolved.
Mr. D. Ahern: There never was. Where is openness, transparency and accountability now?
An Ceann Comhairle: The proceedings are becoming disorderly.
Mr. McCreevy: It is cabin fever.
An Ceann Comhairle: I intend to proceed promptly to the business of the House. I presume Deputy Martin wishes to say something relevant.
Mr. Martin: All Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats members of the Select Committee on Social Affairs wrote to the secretariat of the committee requesting an urgent meeting at some time yesterday to discuss the McCole case and the Minister's response. That committee was disgracefully treated by the Executive. A deliberate attempt was made to ensure the committee would not meet to hear the reply of the Minister for Health. There has been no accountability and transparency on this issue. There has been a deliberate attempt to prevent the truth from emerging about who authorised the legal strategy against the late Brigid McCole. Shame on the Taoiseach.
[737]Mr. N. Treacy: In view of the advertisements placed in today's newspapers by the Minister for the Environment, has the Government decided it will be necessary for many of its members to remain outdoors permanently?
Mr. L. Fitzgerald: Will the Taoiseach acknowledge, as this rainbow fades from the political landscape, that even William Wordsworth understood that the rainbow comes and goes?
An Ceann Comhairle: I thank the Deputy for the injection of poetry. I will now proceed to item 24b,——
Mr. Cowen: On a point of order——
An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy may not make a point of order while I am on my feet.
Mr. Cowen: I can raise a point of order. You are proceeding without allowing a Member to raise a point of order.
An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy will not make a point of order when I am on my feet putting a proposal to the House.
Mr. Cowen: Can I make it when you are finished?
Mr. Martin: He is entitled to make a point of order.
An Ceann Comhairle: I call on Deputy Jim Higgins to move item 24b.
Mr. Cowen: I know this is the Ceann Comhairle's last day in the Chair, but I wish to make a point of order.
An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has made it a hectic day.
Mr. Cowen: I wish to make a point of order as I am entitled to do.
An Ceann Comhairle: No, I am dealing with the business of the House.
Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. J. Higgins): I move:
That, notwithstanding anything in paragraph (1) (i) of the Orders of Reference of the Select Committees on Legislation and Security, Finance and General Affairs, Social Affairs, and Enterprise and Economic Strategy, and the Order of the Dáil of 11th May, 1993, all Revised Estimates for Public Services for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997, referred to such Select Committees by virtue of the Order of 11th May, 1993, shall be considered by Dáil Éireann in [738] plenary session in substitution for being considered by the above-mentioned Select Committees.”
Mr. D. Ahern: You are railroading this through.
Mr. Cowen: On a point of order——
An Ceann Comhairle: I will proceed to item 11.
Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Spring): I move:
“That Dáil Éireann approves the terms of the Agreement between Ireland and the Czech Republic for the Promotion and Reciprocal Protection of Investments, signed in Dublin 28 June 1996.”
Mr. Cowen: I am entitled to put a point of order.
Mr. D. Ahern: You have never done this before, a Cheann Chomhairle.
An Ceann Comhairle: I will not be bullied or browbeaten by any Member of this House.
Mr. Cowen: I am not seeking to bully you. I wish to make a point of order.
Mr. D. Ahern: What is the Government hiding from?
An Ceann Comhairle: I will proceed to item 12.
Mr. Cowen: On a point of order, a Cheann Chomhairle.
Minister for Justice (Mrs. Owen): I move:
That Dáil Éireann approves the terms of the Convention determining the state responsible for examining applications for asylum lodged in one of the Member States of the European Communities done at Dublin on the 15th day of June, 1990, the text of which is contained in the Fourth Schedule to the Refugee Act, 1996 (no. 17 of 1997).
Mr. Cowen: On a point of order——
[739]Minister for Finance (Mr. Quinn): I move the following Estimates:
That a sum not exceeding £731,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Secretary to the President, for certain other expenses of the President's Establishment and for certain grants.
That a sum not exceeding £33,308,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Houses of the Oireachtas, including certain grants-in-aid, and for certain expenses in connection with the European Parliament.
That a sum not exceeding £41,722,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Department of the Taoiseach, and for payment of grants and a grant-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £1,641,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Tánaiste, including certain services administered by that Office and for payment of a grant-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £18,074,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Central Statistics Office.
That a sum not exceeding £30,892,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Finance, including the Paymaster-General's Office, [740] and for payment of certain grants and grants-in-aid, and for the ad hoc Commission on Referendum information.
That a sum not exceeding £93,708,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for pensions, superannuation, occupational injuries, and additional and other allowances and gratuities under the Superannuation Acts, 1834 to 1963 and the Superannuation and Pensions Act, 1976, and sundry other statutes; extra-statutory pensions, allowances and gratuities awarded by the Minister for Finance; fees to medical referees and occasional fees to doctors; compensation and other payments in respect of personal injuries; fees to Pensions Board; miscellaneous payments, etc.
That a sum not exceeding £2,948,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.
That a sum not exceeding £142,982,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, including certain other services administered by that Office.
That a sum not exceeding £105,063,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Public Works; for services administered by that Office including the Stationery Office as part of the Government Supplies Agency, and for payment of certain grants.
That a sum not exceeding £2,877,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the State Laboratory.
[741] That a sum not exceeding £750,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for Secret Service.
That a sum not exceeding £6,007,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Attorney General including a grant-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £5,318,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions.
That a sum not exceeding £9,417,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Valuation Office, the Ordnance Survey and certain minor services.
That a sum not exceeding £3,130,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Civil Service Commission and of the Local Appointments Commission.
That a sum not exceeding £1,403,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Ombudsman and the Public Offices Commission.
That a sum not exceeding £11,943,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Chief State Solicitor.
[742] That a sum not exceeding £33,433,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other services, including payments under a cash-limited scheme administered by that Office, and for payment of grants.
That a sum not exceeding £456,832,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Garda Síochána, including pensions, etc.; for payments of compensation and other expenses arising out of service in the Local Security Force; for the payment of certain witnesses' expenses; and for payment of a grant-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £153,896,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Prison Service, probation and welfare staff and other expenses in connection with prisons, including places of detention; for probation and welfare services; and for payment of a grant-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £30,475,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 312st day of December, 1997 for such of the salaries and expenses of the Supreme Court, the High Court, the Special Criminal Court, the Circuit Court and the District Court as are not charged on the Central Fund.
That a sum not exceeding £16,200,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Land Registry and of the Registry of Deeds.
That a sum not exceeding £202,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Charitable Donations and Bequests Office.
[743] That a sum not exceeding £968,047,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for the Environment, including grants to Local Authorities, grants and other expenses in connection with housing, and miscellaneous schemes, subsidies and grants including certain grants-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £102,055,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education, for certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain grants and grants-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £698,883,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for First-Level Education.
That a sum not exceeding £807,274,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for Second-Level and Further Education.
That a sum not exceeding £502,482,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the payment of sundry grants and grants-in-aid in respect of Third-Level and Further Education.
That a sum not exceeding £61,059,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for the Marine, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain grants and sundry grants-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £369,843,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in [744] course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, including certain services administered by that Office, and of the Irish Land Commission and for payment of certain grants, subsidies and sundry grants-in-aid, and for the payment of certain grants under cash-limited schemes.
That a sum not exceeding £113,330,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, including certain services administered by that Office, and for the payment of certain grants and grants-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £14,358,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Equality and Law Reform including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain grants and a grant-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £693,753,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Enterprise and Employment, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain subsidies, grants and grants-in-aid and for the payment of certain grants under cash-limited schemes.
That a sum not exceeding £76,428,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Tourism and Trade, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain subsidies, grants and grants-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £397,121,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and [745] expenses of the Office of the Minister for Defence, including certain services administered by that Office; for the pay and expenses of the Defence Forces; and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £85,207,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for retired pay, pensions, compensation, allowances and gratuities payable under sundry statutes to or in respect of members of the Defence Forces and certain other Military Organisations, etc., and for sundry contributions and expenses in connection therewith; for certain extra-statutory children's allowances and for sundry grants.
That a sum not exceeding £59,770,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Foreign Affairs, and of certain services administered by that Office, including grants-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £100,138,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for contributions to International Organisations and for certain Official Development Assistance, including certain grants-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £2,721,069,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare, for certain services administered by that Office, for payments to the Social Insurance Fund, and for certain grants including a grant-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £2,480,751,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Health (including Oifig an Ard-Chláraitheora), and certain services administered by that Office, including grants to Health Boards and miscellaneous grants.
[746] That a sum not exceeding £128,768,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, including grants for houses and sundry grants-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £2,121,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the salaries and expenses of the National Gallery, including a grant-in-aid.
That a sum not exceeding £20,834,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for grants (grants-in-aid) to An Chomhairle Ealaíon.
That a sum not exceeding £68,370,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for Increases in Remuneration and Pensions.
That a sum not exceeding £200,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1997 for the payment of certain exceptional grants and for the recoupment of certain expenditure in connection with flood relief.
Mr. B. Ahern: On a point of order, why is one of my Deputies not allowed to make a point of order?
An Ceann Comhairle: Because he sought to do so while I was addressing the House. It is not in order to interrupt the Chair when he is addressing the House.
Mr. B. Ahern: May one of my Deputies now make a point of order?
[747]Mr. Cowen: I asked if I could make a point of order when the Chair was finished. I make that point out of courtesy to the Chair. Now that the Chair has finished, I would like to make a point of order.
An Ceann Comhairle: I will hear a point of order.
Mr. Cowen: Regarding the matter of hospital waiting lists which I raised on the Adjournment recently, the answer of the Minister for Health was that as soon as the validation process was completed the details I sought would be made available to me. The waiting lists in question relate to the end of the first quarter which was the end of March. Will the Taoiseach give an undertaking that the details I sought will be given immediately and will not be deferred any longer as has been attempted by the Minister? I received an assurance from the Minister of State, Deputy O'Shea, that he would look into this matter.
An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has a strange idea of a point of order. He has put a question. Does the Taoiseach wish to intervene to reply?
Mr. Cowen: I am allowed to raise this and ask the Taoiseach to ensure that the details in his Department regarding lengthening waiting lists are made available to the public and to me, as a Member of this House, before the election is over. I believe I am in order. This matter was raised on the Adjournment.
An Ceann Comhairle: I have adjudicated on the matter. The Deputy seems to be in the mood to bait the Chair, but he has picked on the wrong man.
Mr. Cowen: I do not wish to do that.
An Ceann Comhairle: What the Deputy raised was not a point of order, it was a question, and if the Taoiseach wishes to intervene and reply, he may do so.
The Taoiseach: I will investigate the matter, but it is not a point of order.
Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Mr. Coveney): I move: “That the Bill be now read a Second Time.”
It falls to me to bring the final piece of legislation to this Dáil. The legislation is not very earth shattering, but this is a historic moment for me and for the Chair.
The ICC Bank was established 64 years ago with the specific purpose of financing the development of an industrial base in Ireland. The [748] bank has expanded steadily over the years and has enjoyed consistent profitability since its incorporation. Other than the £11.9 million invested by the State as equity over the years, and the State guarantee in respect of some of its borrowings, the bank has received no other assistance from the State. The bank has grown through its own efforts to a stage where its balance sheet now amounts to more than £1,300 million. It has paid regular and increasing dividends to the Exchequer over the past two decades. In the past five years alone, dividend payments to the Exchequer amounted to almost £12 million while tax payments amounted to more than £14 million in the same period. In 1996, the bank made operating profits of £13 million. Of this, £2 million will be returned to the Exchequer in tax and £2.5 million in dividends.
The purpose of the Bill is to provide for the continued development of the ICC Bank. It is a simple technical Bill which has no implications for the future structure of the State banking sector. The Bill has just two main sections which are intended to raise both the existing borrowing limit and the limit on the bank's authorised share capital. This action is necessary to enable the ICC Bank to continue with its successful operations supporting Irish economic growth through loan and venture capital finance, targeted specifically at the SME sector which has contributed so significantly to employment and output growth over the past few years. The Bill is in no way related to any possible restructuring of the State banking sector. It is simply a straightforward technical Bill designed to remove obstacles to the bank's continued growth over the next few years.
The borrowings of the ICC Bank include loans and deposits from customers and other financial institutions. Such borrowings stand at £1,230 million. This is just £70 million short of the statutory limit which was last increased in 1992 from £1,000 million to £1,300 million. Based on current trends, the present limit is likely to be reached around the middle of this year. Given the bank's rate of growth in recent years, it is proposed to raise the borrowing limit by £1,000 million to £2,300 million, which should accommodate the bank's expansion for a number of years. Last year the House agreed to a similar increase in the borrowing limit of the ACC Bank.
Deputies will note it is not intended to increase the limit on the amount of ICC's borrowings which are guaranteed by the Minister for Finance. The policy of reducing the proportion of the bank's liabilities guaranteed by the Minister was first introduced in 1992, when the borrowing limit was increased to £1,300 million while the guarantee limit remained at £1,000 million. The bank's management agree with this approach and is committed over the next few years to significantly reducing the amount of borrowings guaranteed by the State in both nominal and percentage terms.
Shareholders' funds — mainly share capital and retained earnings — are the basis on which a [749] bank's compliance with the capital adequacy requirements of the Central Bank is calculated. ICC Bank's authorised share capital of £12 million — a limit set down in legislation and last increased in 1971 — is fully subscribed and other shareholders' funds — principally retained earnings — are almost fully committed. As a result and because of the capital adequacy requirements of the Central Bank, the ICC Bank will soon be constrained in its efforts to increase its business. Thus, to ensure the continued expansion of the bank, it is proposed to raise the statutory limit on its authorised share capital to £40 million. This is simply an enabling provision. The increase in the limit does not commit the Minister to any specific injection of capital. It merely enables him to subscribe capital to the bank from time to time within the amount specified. It is quite normal, even for very small companies, to have a very large authorised share capital. Any decision to subscribe to further shares in the bank will be taken on the basis of an assessment of the bank's capital needs at the particular time and be subject to the State securing a satisfactory return on any such investment.
Before dealing with the detailed provisions of the Bill, I would like to give the House an indication of developments of the bank since 1992, when the last Bill to increase its borrowing limit was before it. The 1992 legislation enabled the bank to expand its traditional services and to engage in modern banking and financial services.
Since 1992 the bank has undertaken a number of significant initiatives in support of Irish industry and in response to developments and demands in the marketplace. In this regard, I draw particular attention to the bank's venture capital activities which have expanded significantly over the past few years to meet the increasing demand for this type of finance. The bank is now the leading venture capital institution in Ireland, with £14 million invested in 1996 alone. In 1994, the bank managed the first small business expansion loan scheme, handling the £100 million Government-supported fund. This scheme was highly influential in accelerating productive investment in the SME sector through the provision of long-term fixed rated funding at preferential rates. ICC Investment Bank, or ICCIB, ICC's specialist deposit-taking and investment subsidiary, has attracted a steadily rising level of funds since its establishment in 1993. These have been raised with a guarantee from ICC Bank rather than a State guarantee. ICC Investment Bank's funds now amount to nearly £370 million and account for about 30 per cent of the group's overall financing. The continuing future success of ICCIB in attracting unguaranteed funding will significantly reduce the bank's dependence on the State guarantee. ICC International Finance, the IFSC operation of the bank, is now providing full asset financing and treasury operations for corporate customers with overseas undertakings. The bank recently established its own consultancy unit, ICC Consulting, which will [750] provide international financial, banking and industrial consulting and training services. ICC Bank is now a broadly-based financial institution providing an extensive range of financial services to the Irish business community.
As well as increasing its product range and facilities over the past five years, ICC Bank has also expanded its operations within and, for the first time, without the State with the opening of a branch in Belfast in 1996.
Last year, the bank put in place a voluntary early retirement and severance package with a view to improving its cost-income ratio. To this end and in order to finance internal restructuring and the development of new systems, the bank made an exceptional provision in the 1996 accounts of £3.95 million. The bank is currently undertaking an internal review and restructuring programme to identify new sources of income and ways of enhancing performance and profitability.
It is clear from the advances the bank made over the past few years and from the actions now being taken, that it is positioning itself well to enable it to continue to operate effectively in an increasingly competitive market.
I now turn to the main provisions of the Bill. Section 1 is the definitions section and is self explanatory.
Section 2 amends section 5 of the ICC Bank Act, 1992, by providing for an increase in the statutory limit on the bank's borrowings from the current level of £1,300 million to £2,300 million. The last increase was in 1992. The increase now proposed should provide for the projected growth in the bank's activities in the coming years.
Section 3 amends section 2 of the Industrial Credit (Amendment) Act, 1971, by providing for an increase in the limit on the authorised share capital from the current level of £12 million to £40 million. The last such increase was in 1971 when the limit was increased from £10 million. I should point out that the increase proposed relates only to the authorised share capital and in no way commits the Exchequer to any particular equity injection.
Section 4 is a standard provision with Bills of this kind. It requires that ICC Bank plc alter its memorandum and articles of association to make them consistent with the provisions of the Bill. There is a minor typographical error in the last line of this section where it reads “Acts, 1993 to 1997”. This should read “Acts, 1933 to 1997”, and I will be moving an amendment on Committee Stage to correct it.
Section 5 gives the short title, collective citation and construction. I commend the Bill to the House.
Mr. McCreevy: In line with the established practice of declaring an interest in legislation, I wish to declare an interest in ICC Bank. The firm of accountants in which I am a partner has had dealings with that bank and my partners have been liquidators and receivers of bodies in which [751] ICC Bank had debentures. In a venture with another person I have a mortgage with ICC Bank. Perhaps some of the Minister's companies have relationships with this bank. In these days of excessive political correctness, perhaps he should declare that interest. With the nonsense of today's political correctness one can never be too careful.
The Bill makes provisions for an increase in the borrowing limit and the authorised share capital of ICC plc. That bank has, without doubt, entered a critical phase in its history. It is close to its lending limit and new capital is urgently required.
Ownership of the bank is also critical. The Government has prevaricated on this crucial question. We must go back to the early 1990s to find a starting point for the present debate on ownership. Consultants were appointed by the Department of Finance at the start of this decade to examine the bank's future. Ever since, a decision has been keenly awaited. We have sought an answer on the future direction of the State banking system in every Dáil Question Time for the last 13 months. More than a year ago the Minister for Finance said he appreciated the need to make a decision as soon as possible to allow management to plan for the future. Not alone have banks, both domestic and international, been anticipating a conclusion to this long running saga, the employees of this and the other State banks, the ACC and the TSB, are still waiting to learn which way the cookie will crumble. Jobs, security and all other related concerns are at the heart of the game that continues to be played with the State banks.
The contribution made by the employees of the State banking sector is evident in the results achieved by them in recent years. Employees and their families do not need the persistent ownership question mark which hangs over their heads. For their welfare and that of their families, they have long deserved assurances on the future direction of the State's banks, which we in Government will give.
It is ironic we are debating a State banking Bill on the last day of the 27th Dáil. I hope this closing day debate will signal the resolution of the ownership saga by the incoming Administration. The State banks, along with their respective employees especially, can at least begin to strategically plan for the future. Once a general election is out of the way, the political system becomes more stable and at last makes decisions. While the waiting game has gone on, ICC Bank has not been sitting back. It decided to properly equip itself for the marketplace to get out there and do the business. With that in mind I welcome the Bill before the House.
ICC has been a great success and under past, but particularly, the present management it has gone into new ventures, adopted new ideas and has a progressive way of doing business. It was a small institution, but it has played a vital role in the development of this country. I congratulate [752] the people involved in ICC Bank, particularly those with whom I have associated and know well. I hold them in very high esteem. They have adopted a positive and progressive attitude and they have shown that State institutions can involve themselves very successfully in the open market. I welcome the Bill before the House.
Mr. Coveney: I thank Deputy McCreevy for his comments and brevity. The case for a third banking force, originally contained in the Programme for Government of the previous Administration, was related to the need to generate a more vibrant and competitive market in retail banking services. At that time small and medium sized enterprises, among others, were having great difficulty in securing access to credit on reasonable terms, if at all. Moreover, banking services for those who could avail of them were costly and possibly inefficient.
To a significant extent that position was the result of the absence of alternative credit providers to the two banks which dominated the domestic market. That position has been transformed in the past few years by developments such as the emergence of the building societies as significant providers of banking services and the move by the banks into the home mortgage market. Those trends will continue.
Other developments include the liberalisation of capital markets, which removed controls and facilitated depositors and pension funds in placing their funds; the increased competition from foreign based banks under EU banking directives; the Consumer Credit Act, 1995 and the Competition (Amendment) Act, 1996, which have created a comprehensive and effective regulatory framework for retail banking services and competition generally.
The effects of those developments will continue to be felt in the banking sector in the years ahead. I expect we will see increasing competition in financial markets based on telecommunications, information technology and the growth of the credit union movement as a credible banking alternative. The Credit Union Bill will spur this process along. Moreover, Deputies will be aware of the major project in An Post to automate and computerise its counter services, a development which will provide for more accessible and modern saving, investment and other retail financial services for those who do not have access to high street banks.
The circumstances in which the concept of a third banking force was developed have changed fairly substantially in recent years. Therefore, there is need for prudence in considering how to advance the issues on which the focus should be for the future. The Minister for Finance and his colleagues continue to examine all the options to identify the solution which best addresses the needs of all the stakeholders. The jury is probably still out on this issue, but I hope it will be brought to a quick resolution by the incoming Government.
[753] Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 3.Question proposed: “That section 3 stand part of the Bill.”
Mr. McCreevy: I understand it is not unusual to have very high authorised share capital, which even the smallest companies have. The Minister of State said it is not proposed to subscribe for any issued capital in the near future. Has this provision been included to get over this problem when the borrowing powers are being increased? Why was the figure of £40 million chosen?
Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Mr. Coveney): I thought we might have consulted the Deputy's practice on that matter. As I indicated, the Central Bank requires credit institutions to have sufficient capital to guard against defaults on loans for banks such as ICC Bank and this is set at 10 per cent of risk rates assets. The figure of £40 million matches that reasonably closely.
SECTION 4.Mr. Coveney: I move amendment No. 1:
In page 3, line 31, to delete “1993” and substitute “1933”.
This amendment corrects a typographical error. Where the words “Acts 1993 to 1997” appear, it should read “Acts 1933 to 1997”.
Section 4, as amended, agreed to.
Bill reported with amendment and received for final consideration.
Question proposed: “That the Bill do now pass.”
Mr. McCreevy: This is the last opportunity before the dissolution of the Dáil for me as Opposition spokesman on finance to thank the officials in the Department of Finance for their assistance, co-operation and openness on a range of issues. Perhaps the Minister of State and the officials with him today will convey my thanks to [754] the other officials and the Secretary of the Department.
I wish the Minister of State well in his endeavours to be re-elected. I found him very able and was disappointed he had to step down as a Cabinet Minister in circumstances which I thought peculiar. He made a fine Cabinet Minister and an excellent Minister of State and was very cooperative. While I hope my party gets the majority of seats in Cork South-Central, I hope the Minister of State is returned and I wish him well in the election.
Mr. Coveney: I thank Deputy McCreevy for his co-operation in the passage of this not very exciting but important Bill through the House.
I suppose he is everybody's favourite Opposition Member, always conducting his business in good humour, without taking himself too seriously. He is the absolute opposite of a sanctimonious politician and is greatly admired and liked throughout the country. I wish him success in his endeavours over the next three weeks.
While I hope to be on the Government side of the House facing him, if our worst fears were to befall us, on this side of the House, I hope he will be the next Minister for Finance and an excellent one he would be.
I should also like to be associated with his comments and thanks to officials of my Department who have been of such assistance to me within the short time I have been privileged to serve there.
An Ceann Comhairle: In accordance with the Order of the House of today, the sitting is now suspended until 11.45 a.m.
Sitting suspended at 11.28 a.m. and resumed at 11.45 a.m.
An Ceann Comhairle: The House will now hear an announcement from the Taoiseach.
The Taoiseach: I wish to inform the House as a matter of courtesy that I am proceeding immediately to advise the President, pursuant to Article 13 of the Constitution, to dissolve Dáil Éireann and to summon the incoming Dáil to meet at 3 p.m. on Thursday, 26 June 1997. I wish the Ceann Comhairle and other Members of the House who are not seeking re-election a very happy and healthy future. I wish all other Members well in their endeavours to return to the House. Go n-éirí libh go léir i bhur gcuid iarrachtaí.
An Ceann Comhairle: I will hear a brief comment from the leader of the main Opposition party.
[755]Mr. B. Ahern: I thank the Taoiseach for finally putting everyone out of their misery and announcing this general election for which we have waited a long time. It is for the people to give their verdict on this Government which has been an aberration for over two years. I wish everyone well as it will be a difficult three weeks for them, their friends, families, supporters, organisations and voters. It is a sad day for you, a Cheann Comhairle, and for many other Members, or it may be a happy day, but I am sure there is a tinge of sadness. Many Members on all sides of the House who have served the public faithfully will leave us today and I thank them for the service they have given to the people. Regardless of their political allegiance, I consider all of them colleagues.
Since many countries in the world still fight for their vote — people here fought long enough for it — I hope the electorate will use the opportunity on 6 June to cast their vote. Needless to say, I have my preference, on which I will elaborate outside the House in the next three weeks.
It is a good day's work that the Taoiseach decided to put up his hands and go to the people. The sad epithet of this rainbow Government will be: “Here lies the rainbow, red, white and blue, which worked for itself but never for you.”
Mr. B. Ahern: I am glad Deputy Mitchell has decided to run again in my constituency. We in Fianna Fáil confidently go before the people with our policies and our candidates to seek a mandate to lead this country into the 21st century. Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle, for your assistance always.
Miss Harney: I am delighted we are formally commencing the election campaign, which has been under way informally for some time. I pay tribute to the outgoing Deputies who are not [756] seeking re-election — there are 16 in all from the various parties. I hope they will have many happy years in retirement. In particular I pay tribute to my colleague, Deputy Clohessy. I also pay tribute to you, a Cheann Comhairle, as you will not be with us in the 28th Dáil. Thank you for your work in keeping order, sometimes in very difficult circumstances, in this Dáil.
Politics will be on trial in the next three weeks and it behoves us all to act in a responsible way. A general election is about issues, ideas and values, nothing else. I hope we will concentrate on dealing with the real issues that confront our people, penal levels of tax on work, high unemployment and a two-tier society.
I am proud to be the first woman to lead a political party in a general election campaign. It is ironic we have to wait until the threshold of the 21st century to bring that about. In this election we will choose a Government that will take us into the 21st century and it is important to have a decisive result. It is also important for voters to carefully consider the choices. We do not wish to see a return to the position in the early 1980s when one or two people held enormous clout and extracted expensive deals from the Government of the day. I appeal to the people to think only in terms of choosing a Government and to exercise the franchise, which is very important. In the coming weeks we will all be under pressure, but we must remember that thousands of students will sit their examinations on 11 June and their future and that of their families must be foremost in our minds.
I do not wish the Taoiseach to return to office, but I wish him well in the election campaign. I hope the campaign dignifies politics, particularly given the unsavoury events of recent years. If it does that, it will be a great day for democracy.
An Ceann Comhairle: I bid you all a fond farewell, slán agus beannacht de gach éinne.