Ceisteanna — Questions - Appointments to State Boards. Wednesday, 10 October 2007

Dáil Eireann Debate Vol. 639 No. 2 Page of 205

  1.  Deputy Enda Kenny      asked the Taoiseach      the appointments made by him since June 2002 to the State Boards, or other agencies under his aegis; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16808/07]

  2.  Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin      asked the Taoiseach      the appointments made by him to State boards since June 2002; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18784/07]

  3.  Deputy Eamon Gilmore      asked the Taoiseach      if he will list the persons appointed to State boards or agencies operating under the aegis of his Department since 1 January 2007; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20154/07]

The Taoiseach:    I propose to take Question Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.

The information sought by the Deputies concerning appointments made by me to State boards and agencies under the aegis of my Department since June 2002 is set out in the following schedule.

The relevant bodies are the National Statistics Board, the Law Reform Commission, the National Centre for Partnership and Performance, the National Economic and Social Council and the National Economic and Social Forum.

The schedule also lists appointments made in respect of the Second Information Society Commission, the term of office of which ended on 31 December 2004.

[457]Deputy Enda Kenny:    The Taoiseach said recently that membership of Fianna Fáil does not disqualify persons from being appointed to State boards. Was Mr. Joseph Burke re-appointed to [458]the chairmanship of Dublin Port on the basis of his friendship with the Taoiseach or on the basis of merit and experience? His company specialised in refurbishing public houses and employed [459]16 people in north Dublin. The High Court was told the building company had substantial debts. It is no fault of anyone that a business venture fails. Was his re-appointment made on the basis of merit or because he was a friend of the Taoiseach?

The Taoiseach:    Mr. Burke, as a member and chairman of the board for many years, has carried out a hugely successful reform of the port company and is recognised as having done so across all political persuasions. His appointment is made on the basis of the knowledge, expertise and experience he brings to the job. These are the qualities a person should bring to a board. There are many Fine Gael and Labour Party people on boards. Most of the people I have appointed in my Department have a political orientation but are not from my party. They are all appointed on the same criteria. Mr. Burke’s appointment was made on the basis of his knowledge and expertise. The improvements in the industrial relations situation and productivity in the company and the changes he has made over many years stand up to scrutiny by anyone.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    What is the position regarding Oireachtas membership of the National Economic and Social Forum? Have changes been made or are changes intended in line with the recent general election result? The technical group was represented by the former Deputy Jerry Cowley, who was not re-elected to the Dáil, and the Progressive Democrats representative was the late Senator Kate Walsh.

What is the method of selection? Is it made on a ratio basis?

Have the NESF vacancies been addressed since the general election result?

  11 o’clock

The Taoiseach:    Changes will have to be made in respect of membership of the NESF to reflect current Oireachtas representation. As I understand it, that is happening or is about to happen. It was agreed earlier this year that the existing 15 Oireachtas nominees to NESF would be reappointed pending the general election following which the position would be revisited. I understand the Whip’s office will shortly be in touch with the parties to seek fresh nominations for the Oireachtas strand. It must be changed based on current Oireachtas representation.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    The Taoiseach said that membership of the NESF must change and that changes are pending. Is he directly involved in deciding who will fill the vacancies? The Taoiseach indicated that representatives from Fine Gael and the Labour Party will be on boards. Is he willing to consider the appointment of a Sinn Féin representative to the board of NESF as reconstituted following the general elec[460]tion result? There are vacancies on that board. What methodology is used in the selection of appointees? Does the Taoiseach take a direct hand in the selection and, if so, when does he expect to address this matter?

The Taoiseach:    The formula used is based on party representation in the House. Fifteen Members of the House are appointed to the board and it is a straight mathematical division. I have not worked out the new formula though I have included the old one in the reply. I will examine with the Whip’s office what this means for Sinn Féin.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    I suppose if it is based on a formula of numbers — the Taoiseach is a man of great skill with numbers and accountancy — that suggests that perhaps we would not have automatic entitlement to one of the 15 positions. Perhaps the Taoiseach will be good enough to consider the contribution we could make.

The Taoiseach:    I will consider that. To the best of my knowledge, the Technical Group was represented on the previous board, as were the Progressive Democrats and the Independents. I will look at the formula.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    What changes, if any, have been made since the reformation of the Fianna Fáil Government, with the participation on this occasion of the Green Party, following the general election? Is it the case, as the Taoiseach previously stated publicly, that those selected by him for appointment to boards are his friends? Has there been any move towards the method proposed in March by the Green Party in its Appointments to Public Bodies Bill 2007, which called for an independent and transparent method of appointments to State boards? I have read the programme for Government and cannot find reference therein to any change in the method by which appointments will be made to State boards. Will the Taoiseach say if there has been any change in the method of appointment to State boards and what concession, if any, has been made in respect of the proposals contained in the Green Party’s Bill introduced in the House in March of this year?

The Taoiseach:    The Deputy is, of course, misrepresenting my view. I have stated many times that it is no longer easy to get people to serve on State boards, given the commitment required of them, much of the time free gratis and often for very small amounts. Appointments are based on a person’s experience, expertise, willingness to serve and commitment to the organisation in which they are involved. Most appointments to organisations that come within the remit of my Department are nominees from the social partners. Appointments to organisations such as the [461]National Statistics Board and the Law Reform Commission are limited to people with particular expertise in these areas.

There are no proposals or procedures in place to establish an independent system to examine or scrutinise appointments. Ministers and Departments try, to the best of their ability, to select the right people for positions. As I stated many times, people are no longer queueing up, as they did in the past, to participate on State boards. The current situation is different, given the legal position, governance arrangements and the commitment required. A limited number of people have the time or the commitment to get involved. That is a fact of life. We continue to manage to obtain suitable people but doing so is not near as easy as it was ten or 20 years ago.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    What understanding exists between the parties in government with regard to the making of appointments to State boards? Is there an arrangement by which the smaller parties in government can make or recommend nominees for appointment to these boards?

The Taoiseach:    What normally happens — this has been the case for many years — is that the relevant Department makes a nomination and that is agreed by Government. Legislation in respect of semi-State companies provides that a Minister may make a nomination which is then agreed by Government, and that is what happens. Consideration will be given to a suitable nomination by any member of Government.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    Is there an understanding or agreement in terms of allocations, ratios, proportions and so on between the parties in government with regard to the making of appointments to State boards?

The Taoiseach:    No.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    There is no agreement.

The Taoiseach:    There is no agreement in respect of allocations, ratios and so on. The Deputy is implying that the bigger party gets X and the smaller party gets Y, but there is no such arrangement.

Deputy Alan Shatter:    Will the Taoiseach confirm that neither the Green Party nor the Progressive Democrats will be consulted in advance in respect of appointments by Fianna Fáil Ministers to State boards and that they will have absolutely no say in that matter? Will he tell the House what vacancies currently exist on State boards? Will he also list those vacancies and tell us when it is intended to fill them? Will the Taoiseach clarify the question asked earlier, [462]namely, why he forgot to appoint two directors to Aer Lingus?

The Taoiseach:    I do not wish to be unhelpful to Deputy Shatter but I am answering questions in respect of boards which come under the aegis of my Department. The Government makes appointments to State boards as provided for in legislation. There is consultation with Government in respect of nominations by Ministers, but ultimately the decision is made by the Minister. Much depends on what is provided for in the relevant legislation.

Deputy Alan Shatter:    The Taoiseach did not respond to my question regarding what vacancies currently exist on State boards. I think the Chief Whip is falling for the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle:    He is falling off the job.

Deputy Alan Shatter:    We are anxious not to have a Dublin South constituency accident if by-elections are to be avoided.

Will the Taoiseach list what positions are currently vacant on State boards? In the context of the Taoiseach’s expression of concern in respect of the difficulty of finding suitable people to sit on boards because of the governance provisions and the time commitment, does the Government plan to review the remuneration payable to members appointed to State boards?

The Taoiseach:    I do not think there is such a proposal, but the Deputy would need to table a question to each Minister in respect of vacancies on State boards that come under the remit of their Departments. I have outlined in my reply the position in respect of my Department.

I have made the point several times that significant issues arise in respect of membership of State boards in terms of time, legal positions and governance arrangements. Most members of State boards are also members of several audit committees and other committees. The situation is unlike it was years ago. Given the volume of legislation enacted in the past 15 years and the practices arising therefrom, it is no longer considered a great plus to be a member of a State board. A limited number of people are prepared to give the time and effort required for State boards. It is for this reason that people of all political persuasions and none are represented on State boards and that is good.

Deputy Alan Shatter:    Does the Taoiseach know what positions are currently vacant on State boards?

The Taoiseach:    Is the Deputy referring to my Department?

Deputy Alan Shatter:    No, on boards in general.

[463]The Taoiseach:    I have no idea.

Deputy Alan Shatter:    The Taoiseach has no idea what vacancies exist even in his own Department.

The Taoiseach:    I know of the situation in my Department; that is the subject of these questions.

Deputy Alan Shatter:    Which positions are vacant?

The Taoiseach:    The board of the NESF needs to be reappointed.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell:    The Taoiseach will be aware of requests from the self-catering industry for representation on the board of Fáilte Ireland. This industry is an important part of the sector but because its members are so dispersed throughout the country they have very little influence or voice while big decisions are being made about the future of that sector. The industry has made its case to the Taoiseach and the line Minister for representation on the board. Will the Taoiseach use his influence to ensure they are represented when the vacancy arises?

The Taoiseach:    I will bring the matter to the attention of the Minister concerned.

Deputy James Reilly:    With respect to the Taoiseach’s statement about the difficulties of finding suitable people, will he inform the House whether these positions are advertised and, if not, why not?

The Taoiseach:    They are not advertised.

Deputy James Reilly:    Why not, if there is a difficulty in finding people?

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd:    Was there ever a case where a person nominated to a board was found subsequently to be disqualified for any reason and that person’s name was withdrawn as a result or was forced to resign from the board as a result of information which the Taoiseach was not aware of when he nominated the person?

The Taoiseach:    Is that with regard to my Department?

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd:    Yes.

The Taoiseach:    I cannot recall such a situation.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd:    Will the Taoiseach find out this information?

The Taoiseach:    I suggest the Deputy puts down a question.

[464]Deputy Seán Barrett:    The Taoiseach in his reply mentioned that because of recent legislation it is becoming more difficult to find good people to serve on State boards. Is he suggesting that the legislation should be changed. Surely it is most important to find well qualified, good people to serve on boards and if this is being prevented by something in the legislation does he propose a change in the legislation?

The Taoiseach:    No. Issues of governance and the responsibilities and obligations of directors are the same in the private as in the public sector, as the Deputy will be aware. That means that because of the time commitment, people are not prepared to be members of boards unless they can give the time to do the work to the best of their ability and to participate in committees such as audit committees. The duties and responsibilities of board members are demanding. I talk to many of the key people on State boards on a regular basis and many will say that the time commitment is very high. This is evident in boards in many areas, particularly in the key commercial semi-State sector. Members of such boards do not want to be reappointed. They serve their term which they regard as their duty to the State and they then move on. It is a time commitment.

Many boards hold weekly meetings. I referred earlier to the board of Aer Lingus, some members of which are from the United States so they must travel over for meetings. They put in a considerable effort and the same applies for members of other boards. When membership of a sub-committee is taken into account, such people could have to devote as much as one day a week. That is acceptable if a person is not too busy, but it is a significant commitment for an individual who is a member of one of the key commercial State boards.

---

Last Updated: 03/11/2010 18:16:32

Page of 205