Order of Business. Thursday, 12 February 2009

Dáil Eireann Debate Vol. 674 No. 3 Page of 170

The Tánaiste:    It is proposed to take No. 9b, motion re planned recapitalisation of Allied Irish Banks and Bank of Ireland. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the proceedings on No. 9b shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 3.30 p.m. today and the following arrangements shall apply: the speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and Sinn Féin, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; the speech of each other member called upon shall not exceed 10 minutes in each case; Members may share time; a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 15 minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle:    There is one proposal to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 9b agreed?

Deputy Finian McGrath:    On a point of order, will the Independent Deputies be allowed to participate in this debate?

An Ceann Comhairle:    If it is possible. I cannot be certain, but will try to allow that.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch:    The Department will need a script.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    This is not agreed. We are not here to play games. There is €7,000 million on the line and the first person who should be here is the Taoiseach.

Deputies:  Hear, hear.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    His absence is noted. This morning I listened to the Minister for Finance, who speaks with his usual authority. Other authorities said the airwaves were buzzing with negativity yesterday, not because of the reaction to the Government’s decision, but as a reaction to the Government’s incompetence in handling this.

I object to the Government’s proposal. This was originally to be statements. After pressure from this side of the House and others it was changed to a motion. We are expected to come in here today and have statements for ten minutes and a response from some Minister of State for 15 minutes at the end. A number of very serious questions need to be answered. The first is whether the Government has confidence in the management of Irish Life & Permanent, which appears to have colluded with Anglo Irish Bank to the deception of shareholders and given misleading information on deposit strength. This is a very serious matter given that it is a covered institution guaranteed by the Irish State. Does the Government have confidence in the management of Irish Life & Permanent as a covered institution?

[628]The announcement by the Minister for Finance that he had not read the section of the report on Anglo Irish Bank is a black mark against him and the fact that the Financial Regulator was forced to resign because he knew about the loans from Anglo Irish Bank should lead the Minister to step down from his position as a patriotic gesture. However, the Fianna Fáil members do not do that. They do not read their brief and the recommendations, and they will continue on with business as usual.

The Minister for Finance chaired the Cabinet meeting that dealt with the nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank. I do not want to know any Cabinet secrets and the Minister is not free to divulge them. However, in the preparation for that meeting the normal procedure is for Cabinet members to receive a memo on the major decisions to be made. These are circulated electronically. Did the Department of Finance prepare a memo on the nationalisation question and did it include the information on the extent of the loans to Anglo Irish Bank from Irish Life & Permanent and how the money was moving?

An Ceann Comhairle:    This is not Question Time.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    To comply with the Ceann Comhairle’s patience, I propose that instead of No. 4, that the Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement for 15 minutes, we should have 90 minutes of questions and answers at the end of these statements. This way Members from all sides of the House can have the Minister for Finance, the Tánaiste and preferably the Taoiseach, who did not read this report either, appear before the House and answer questions that are fundamental to the financial security of our State, given our fragile position. If the Government does not have confidence in Irish Life & Permanent, whether or not any other regulatory authority was involved, it is a matter of the utmost State importance.

An Ceann Comhairle:    That is a matter for the debate. The Deputy has made his point.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I propose that there be 90 minutes at the end of this for questions and answers.

Deputies:  Hear, hear.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    I join Deputy Kenny in objecting to the arrangements the Government proposes for this debate. There should be an opportunity for questions to the Minister and answers from him on this issue before the debate is concluded. This debate should not conclude today. At the very least it should continue tomorrow. An opportunity should be given to every Member of this House who wants to contribute to this debate to do so. The arrangements proposed will allow for two speakers from the Labour Party in addition to our spokesperson to contribute to this debate.

The Taoiseach should be here, Thursday or not. This is a very different Thursday because of what is before us. This sum of €7 billion is the single biggest expenditure of public money this House has ever been asked to consider. It is four times what the two banks concerned together were worth at the close of business yesterday evening. It is five times the amount of money the Government wants to raise in the proposed pension levy. It is 1,000 times the amount it would take to keep teaching assistants in classrooms for children with special needs, who are being deprived of that.

Deputies:  Hear, hear.

[629]Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    It is a huge sum of money and should not be subject to a short, Thursday debate, limited in time and procedure.

The debate comes a day after two of the most shocking disclosures we have heard here in a long time, namely, the fraudulent transactions which have been going on in Anglo Irish Bank and the admission by the Minister for Finance that he did not read the relevant part of the PricewaterhouseCoopers report that referred to those matters. For those reasons the Labour Party will not agree to the unacceptable arrangements proposed. I ask the Tánaiste to agree to Deputy Kenny’s suggestion that questions and answers be allowed for and that this debate be continued into tomorrow to allow reasonable opportunity for every Member to contribute.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    Hear, hear.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    Yesterday we had an opportunity to engage with the Minister and we were in a position to ask specific questions through the facilitation of a Private Notice Question. Already this morning further questions arise following a raft of different pieces of information that have appeared in the national press today. These include the claim by Irish Life & Permanent that it advised the Financial Regulator within days of its participation in a €7 billion merry-go-round with Anglo Irish Bank last September and the transactions involved. This is a very serious indication of the extent of the awareness of the Office of the Financial Regulator. That information was not shared with us yesterday. We need an opportunity to question the Minister again and he should be willing to accept the opportunity for an additional question and answer session to the proposal placed before us.

  11 o’clock

There are very serious questions to be asked. When did the Financial Regulator become aware? What actions did the Financial Regulator take? All these matters have to be addressed and in a very serious way. We cannot park the enormity of this issue on the back of yesterday’s limited opportunity or today’s statements. This merits serious investigation. It is not only about Anglo Irish Bank, although that is very much at centre stage. There are other major players among the financial institutions whose activities and complicit actions make them equally subject to proper scrutiny. That must be done in this House to the best of our ability. Along with the other speakers I urge that the Order Paper be amended to accommodate the extension of time to give true opportunity to Members to participate and to question, once more, the Minister and the Taoiseach, if possible, on these very important matters.

The Tánaiste:    I agree with Deputy Kenny that this is a very serious matter. The motion refers specifically to Bank of Ireland and Allied Irish Banks. It is not an expenditure but an investment with an 8% return.

Deputy John Deasy:    It is the principle of what the Government is doing.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Tánaiste is entitled to reply.

A Deputy:  They have money to give away.

Deputy Paul Connaughton:    It is a great investment.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    Blue chip.

The Tánaiste:    The Minister has indicated that he will be meeting the chairman and the chief executive of Irish Life & Permanent this afternoon——

[630]Deputy Noel J. Coonan:    Why is the Government robbing the public service if it has money to give away?

The Tánaiste:    ——and it would be inappropriate to make any further comment arising from that. As everyone in the House knows, a legislative measure will be introduced next week to facilitate this. Further debate can take place in the context of those deliberations, which will take place after the Bill has been printed and circulated.

Question put: “That the proposal for dealing with No. 9b be agreed to.”

The Dáil divided: Tá, 75; Níl, 66.

Tá
Ahern, Dermot.	Ahern, Michael.
Ahern, Noel.	Andrews, Barry.
Andrews, Chris.	Ardagh, Seán.
Aylward, Bobby.	Blaney, Niall.
Brady, Áine.	Brady, Cyprian.
Brady, Johnny.	Browne, John.
Byrne, Thomas.	Calleary, Dara.
Carey, Pat.	Conlon, Margaret.
Connick, Seán.	Coughlan, Mary.
Cregan, John.	Cuffe, Ciarán.
Cullen, Martin.	Curran, John.
Dempsey, Noel.	Devins, Jimmy.
Fahey, Frank.	Finneran, Michael.
Fitzpatrick, Michael.	Fleming, Seán.
Flynn, Beverley.	Gogarty, Paul.
Gormley, John.	Grealish, Noel.
Hanafin, Mary.	Harney, Mary.
Haughey, Seán.	Healy-Rae, Jackie.
Hoctor, Máire.	Kelleher, Billy.
Kelly, Peter.	Kenneally, Brendan.
Kennedy, Michael.	Kirk, Seamus.
Kitt, Michael P.	Kitt, Tom.
Lenihan, Brian.	McEllistrim, Thomas.
McGrath, Mattie.	McGrath, Michael.
McGuinness, John.	Mansergh, Martin.
Martin, Micheál.	Moloney, John.
Moynihan, Michael.	Mulcahy, Michael.
Nolan, M.J.	Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
O’Brien, Darragh.	O’Connor, Charlie.
O’Dea, Willie.	O’Flynn, Noel.
O’Hanlon, Rory.	O’Keeffe, Batt.
O’Keeffe, Edward.	O’Rourke, Mary.
O’Sullivan, Christy.	Power, Peter.
Power, Seán.	Roche, Dick.
Ryan, Eamon.	Sargent, Trevor.
Smith, Brendan.	Treacy, Noel.
Wallace, Mary.	White, Mary Alexandra.
Woods, Michael.

Níl
Bannon, James.	Barrett, Seán.
Behan, Joe.	Breen, Pat.
Broughan, Thomas P.	Bruton, Richard.
Burke, Ulick.	Burton, Joan.
Byrne, Catherine.	Carey, Joe.
Clune, Deirdre.	Connaughton, Paul.
Coonan, Noel J.	Costello, Joe.
Coveney, Simon.	Crawford, Seymour.
Creed, Michael.	Creighton, Lucinda.
D’Arcy, Michael.	Deasy, John.
Deenihan, Jimmy.	Doyle, Andrew.
Durkan, Bernard J.	English, Damien.
Feighan, Frank.	Flanagan, Terence.
Gilmore, Eamon.	Hayes, Brian.
Higgins, Michael D.	Hogan, Phil.
Howlin, Brendan.	Kehoe, Paul.
Kenny, Enda.	Lynch, Ciarán.
McCormack, Pádraic.	McEntee, Shane.
McGinley, Dinny.	McGrath, Finian.
McHugh, Joe.	McManus, Liz.
Mitchell, Olivia.	Morgan, Arthur.
Naughten, Denis.	Neville, Dan.
Noonan, Michael.	Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.	O’Donnell, Kieran.
O’Dowd, Fergus.	O’Keeffe, Jim.
O’Mahony, John.	O’Shea, Brian.
O’Sullivan, Jan.	Perry, John.
Rabbitte, Pat.	Reilly, James.
Ring, Michael.	Shatter, Alan.
Sheahan, Tom.	Sherlock, Seán.
Shortall, Róisín.	Stagg, Emmet.
Stanton, David.	Timmins, Billy.
Tuffy, Joanna.	Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    The vote has been taken. It appears the Government either does not wish or is afraid to facilitate a question and answer session in the House today. I cannot change that decision but it is regrettable that when €7,000 million of public money is being pumped into the banks in a recapitalisation programme we cannot get answers to questions. The Tánaiste made a comment earlier about Irish Life & Permanent and its management.

An Ceann Comhairle:    That matter has been disposed of, Deputy Kenny. We are on the Order of Business.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    It was not disposed of.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Yes, because the debate will be held immediately after the Order of Business. The Government has put down a motion and amendments to that motion have been put down by the Opposition parties. The matter can be discussed then. That is perfectly logical.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I have a question for the Tánaiste about legislation to which she referred. She said a legislative measure will be brought before the House. In light of the legislation to be produced, will the Tánaiste confirm this morning that the Government has confidence in the management of Irish Life & Permanent? Can she confirm, also in light of that legislation, that there was no involvement of any other regulatory authority in the collusion of Irish Life & Permanent with Anglo Irish Bank——

An Ceann Comhairle:    That legislation can throw no such light.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    ——to deceive shareholders?

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Tánaiste can only answer as to when the legislation is forthcoming.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I am speaking about the legislation, a Cheann Comhairle.

[632]An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Kenny, democracy is a participatory process carried out under the rules of the House and I must ask you to obey them. I cannot chair the proceedings if they are going to continue like this.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I recall you, a Cheann Comhairle, in your younger years when you sat in the vacant seat between the seats now occupied by Deputy Creed and Deputy Hogan on this side of the House. You became quite apoplectic about matters of much less importance than €7,000 million in taxpayers’ money——

Deputy Bobby Aylward:    That is why your Government was eased out.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    ——and questions of the most serious gravity that must be asked about covered institutions with State guarantees. The public wants to know what we are investigating and the extent of liabilities that will accrue.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy is well aware that all good wine matures well. I must move on.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I have another question. In light of the debate due to take place, can I take it that the statement of the Minister for Finance——

An Ceann Comhairle:    A question on legislation. A great deal of debate will take place here today on the other matters.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    In light of the statement to be made by the Minister for Finance to deal with the legislation he will introduce, will he give all the information to the House this morning, and I mean all the information available to the Government?

An Ceann Comhairle:    We will deal with that later. The Tánaiste on the legislation.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    Fine Gael has put down an amendment to the motion.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I know, and the House will discuss that later. The Tánaiste on the legislation.

The Tánaiste:    The legislation I referred to is to facilitate the recapitalisation of the Bank of Ireland and AIB. It is the National Pensions Reserve Fund (Amendment) (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009 and it is being drafted at present. It is expected to be finalised by the Government next Tuesday and printed thereafter.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    Do you have confidence in Irish Life & Permanent?

The Tánaiste:    That has nothing to do with me.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    That is the legislation about which I wished to put questions to the Tánaiste. She will recall that when I asked her about this previously, she informed me that the legislation would have to be enacted before the recapitalisation of the banks. What is the status of the Government’s announcement last night? Does it follow from what she said that the National Pensions Reserve Fund (Amendment) (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill must be enacted by the House before the capitalisation can take effect?

The Tánaiste:    The legislation must be enacted for the moneys to be released. That will take a number of weeks.

[633]Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    What is the timetable for the enactment of the legislation?

The Tánaiste:    It will be printed on Tuesday. The Whips will decide next week or the week after when the legislation will be discussed in the House. After it has been passed the matter can be facilitated. We must pass the legislation to recapitalise the banks. We can make an announcement on how we will recapitalise the banks and the methodology of that but the legislation must be passed to allow the money to be made available.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    When will the Government afford the House an opportunity to hear the Minister for Education and Science discuss his decision to cut funding to special needs children? Will that be afforded today or next week? Preferably, the Minister will announce a decision to withdraw his proposal——

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy cannot go into that now. We are dealing with promised legislation.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    ——which is disgraceful and directly affects the special needs education of more than 900 children.

An Ceann Comhairle:    It is not promised business.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    I am asking whether it will be included. Surely an issue of such importance merits address in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy will have to table a question.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    Can the Tánaiste indicate that the Minister will be requested——

An Ceann Comhairle:    She cannot.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    ——to come before the House on this matter?

An Ceann Comhairle:    It is a matter for the Whips and is not promised business. Deputy Ciarán Lynch is next.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch:    Is there a need for present legislation governing the procurement of public contracts to be amended? I ask this on the basis that earlier this week the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, sent the issue of the e-voting machines to an bord snip. The replies to parliamentary questions I asked show that the State is engaged with contracts of 15 to 25 years duration on these matters, and indicate the State will be paying money for the next 20 years.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Has Deputy Lynch a question which is in order?

Deputy Ciarán Lynch:    Yes. Given that the State has committed for the next 25 years to pay for the storage of these machines, will the State have to amend the procurement legislation in order to get out this?

An Ceann Comhairle:    Is legislation promised in this area?

The Tánaiste:    Not that I am aware.

An Ceann Comhairle:    There is no legislation promised. I call Deputy Costello.

[634]Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    Lose more money on it.

Deputy Joe Costello:    I ask the Tánaiste about the commitment the Minister for Finance made in the House to me yesterday, that he would endeavour to have the PricewaterhouseCoopers report placed in the Library as quickly as possible? Can we be assured that the report will be in the Library before the legislation on the recapitalisation is brought forward?

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Tánaiste on the report.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte:    The Minister promised an expurgated version.

Deputy Joe Costello:    The Minister promised.

Deputy Brian Lenihan:    Regarding Anglo Irish Bank, yes.

Deputy Joe Costello:    No.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch:    Not just the highlighted part of it.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Tánaiste will answer now. Hold on a second.

Deputy Joe Costello:    Could I clarify it for the Tánaiste? I asked that the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, which was a report into six banks including Anglo Irish Bank, would be laid in the Library for us to peruse. It was the intention that it would cover all of the banks and the Minister seemed to indicate that he was prepared to do that.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Are there plans to lay that before the House?

Deputy Joe Costello:    He indicated that he was prepared to do that but that he would take whatever confidential item——

The Tánaiste:    The Minister indicated that he would examine whether that would be possible regarding the Anglo Irish Bank part. He did not make a commitment on the rest of the report, which is commercially sensitive.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    The Ladybird version.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Naughten.

Deputy Joe Costello:    Could I get clarification on that? We will have a debate on the legislation to recapitalise the banks. That is coming up. Can we get a commitment from the Minister that the report will be in the Library before that debate takes place?

The Tánaiste:    The full report will not be in the Library as it still contains commercially sensitive information and we are not party to allow that to happen.

Deputy Joe Costello:    We are not looking for the full report. I asked for the expurgated report, where the sensitive information would be deleted. Nobody wanted the sensitive information.

The Tánaiste:    The Minister indicated that he would examine the possibility of doing that but only on the issue of Anglo Irish Bank, which is what the Deputy raised.

Deputy Joe Costello:    Can we get a commitment now?

The Tánaiste:    I cannot give a commitment because the Minister must examine the matter.

[635]An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Naughten.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd:    For the first time.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I cannot go into that now.

Deputy Joe Costello:    Could we get some clarification?

An Ceann Comhairle:    The clarification is that the Tánaiste has stated that if it is possible to lay parts of before the House, that will be done. All right? That is what she said.

Deputy Liz McManus:    Can we get time to read it?

An Ceann Comhairle:    What the Tánaiste said was that if it were possible to lay portions of the report before the House, that would be done.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch:    The Jack and Jill version.

Deputy Joe Costello:    Have we got a commitment to that and that would be done before the legislation on recapitalisation is brought before the House?

The Tánaiste:    The situation is the Minister indicated that after Anglo Irish Bank has made its annual report available he would consider whether he could do it.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    Either he will or he will not.

The Tánaiste:    A Cheann Comhairle, as you know, one cannot give a commitment until one examines whether one legally can do such a thing. Therefore, I am not giving a commitment to the Opposition on this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Naughten.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd:    The Minister gave a commitment last night.

Deputy Joe Costello:    The Minister did not make any such condition. The only condition——

An Ceann Comhairle:    I cannot——

Deputy Joe Costello:    There was one condition, a Cheann Comhairle, for the record of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Costello, let us be clear about one thing now.

Deputy Joe Costello:    Just to clarify.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I cannot really, at this point in time, allow any Member to interpret what precisely was said by the Minister last night or any other night.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    The record will show what was said.

An Ceann Comhairle:    My difficulty is that the Tánaiste has been asked a question——

Deputy Michael D. Higgins:    She answered, but the Minister said it.

[636]An Ceann Comhairle:    ——and she has answered the question, and I cannot go any further than that. I must call Deputy Naughten.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    A Cheann Comhairle, on a point of order, there is a direct contradiction between what the Tánaiste is saying now and what the Minister said last night.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Can I finish?

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    The Minister said last night, without any doubt at all, he would take out the sensitive parts of the report and place it in the Library. He said he would, not that he may, he might or he would give consideration to the matter.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I have said on a number of occasions——

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    We want him to be committed to that undertaking to Deputy Costello.

An Ceann Comhairle:    ——that if Members wish to make an allegation of any nature——

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    He changed his mind since.

An Ceann Comhairle:    ——against an officeholder,——

Deputy Joe Costello:    This is not a matter of an allegation.

An Ceann Comhairle:    ——then it must be done by way of substantive motion and may not be done by innuendo or otherwise across the floor of the House.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    We are not making any allegation. We are asking him to stick with what he said. We are not making any allegation. We want him to do what he said he would do.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Tánaiste has made her position very clear in respect of the Government side. I cannot do any more with it.

Deputy Joe Costello:    I am talking about the promised recapitalisation legislation.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins:    That is right, and the preparations for it.

Deputy Joe Costello:    This is relevant material that the Minister indicated he would place in the Library for all Members to peruse prior to the debate.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch:    We can read the blacks.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Tánaiste just answered the question. I cannot do any more with it.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte:    If we find out that, we will bring it to your attention.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Naughten.

Deputy Joe Costello:    We will be queuing up to read it.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins:    Real slow.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputies had a good crack at it. I call Deputy Naughten.

Deputy Joe Costello:    A Cheann Comhairle, can I have clarification?

An Ceann Comhairle:    There have been three different clarifications.

[637]Deputy James Reilly:    That is the problem and none of them is clear.

Deputy Seán Sherlock:    Just muddying the waters.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    Would the Minister tell the Tánaiste the position?

An Ceann Comhairle:    Can the Tánaiste clarify it for the last time?

The Tánaiste:    For even more clarity, the Deputy is referring to Anglo Irish Bank. The legislation has nothing to do with Anglo Irish Bank. It has to do with Bank of Ireland and the AIB.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Naughten. Deputy Costello, I have called Deputy Naughten. Deputy Naughten, you are in order.

Deputy Denis Naughten:    On promised legislation, and regarding an issue I raised with the Tánaiste before Christmas, I refer to the reports regarding the 70 year old woman who had a child via IVF for the first time. At that time I asked when we would see the human tissue Bill published and when we would see legislation to regulate IVF treatment in this country. Under the law as it stands at present, the situation that arose in India would be equally legal in this country. When will we see legislation, for once and for all, to regulate this sector?

The Tánaiste:    The heads of the Bill were approved last year but it is not possible at this moment in time to give an exact date for its introduction.

Deputy James Reilly:    I wish to raise two separate pieces of legislation. First, under the covert surveillance Bill, is there any intention to send in the snoops — the fraud squad — to check the banks out given what has been going on? Might I suggest to the Tánaiste that she suggest to the Minister for Finance that he take a leaf from the book of his predecessor, Albert Reynolds——

An Ceann Comhairle:    That is Star Chamber rubbish.

Deputy James Reilly:    ——and get the one page précis with the important bits highlighted.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I must get a page out of Standing Orders for Deputy Reilly as well because that is not in order at all, as he well knows. Ask a question that is in order, please.

Deputy James Reilly:    On the second piece of legislation which I want to ask about, this morning 1,200 jobs went in north Dublin. This headline, that the jobless total had doubled in north Dublin, was written before that happened.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy is not entitled to hold up newspapers in the House and is not entitled to raise this matter now.

Deputy James Reilly:    The Tánaiste was approached by this company and offered it no help.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I must ask Deputy Reilly to raise the matter on the Adjournment——

Deputy James Reilly:    I want to know what the Government will do to save these jobs.

An Ceann Comhairle:    ——or table a question on it.

[638]Deputy James Reilly:    The Taoiseach has talked the talk, let him walk the walk. He says that jobs are the priority.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Reilly is completely out of order.

Deputy James Reilly:    Save these jobs. What is he going to do about this?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I must move on. I call Deputy Durkan.

Deputy James Reilly:    The people are devastated.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Durkan is next. Deputy Broughan, is it on the same subject?

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    On the same subject, as Deputy Reilly——

An Ceann Comhairle:    That is out of order.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    Will we have an opportunity for this incredibly unsuccessful Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Stop, that is out of order.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    Every week we lose 1,000 jobs, 2,000 jobs.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We must move on. I call Deputy Durkan.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    Will she come into this House and tell us what she did to try to save SR Technics jobs?

An Ceann Comhairle:    Table a matter on the Adjournment.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    What did she do about the elephant in the room,——

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy must leave it now.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    ——about the strength of the euro, which is one of the policies that is devastating our industry?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Durkan. Deputy Broughan must resume his seat.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    Will we have a chance to debate this?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Durkan. That is a matter for the whips.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    No. We need to have a debate on this subject. The Ceann Comhairle ruled out a debate from my colleague.

An Ceann Comhairle:    No.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    It is down for a Private Notice Question, a Cheann Comhairle.

Deputy David Stanton:    Six months time.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Durkan is next.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    We need to have a chance to debate this on the floor of this House instead of on the Adjournment, but you ruled out a debate Ceann Comhairle.

[639]An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Durkan is next. Deputy Broughan may put it down for the Adjournment as well and we will see if we can help. I call Deputy Durkan. Deputy Broughan must resume his seat.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    You ruled out a debate on this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Broughan will have to resume his seat.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    This is the impact——

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Chair is standing and, therefore, Deputy Broughan must resume his seat.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    This is the impact of the gross incompetence of those incompetent people on ordinary people.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Broughan, I am going to have ask you to leave the House and I do not want to do it, but if I have to do it I will. Please resume your seat.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    We have 1,200 devastated families today in Swords——

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy must resume his seat.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    ——on the north side and on the west side of Dublin. What is the Tánaiste going to do about it? We are sick of this.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Broughan must resume his seat, for the last time.

Deputy James Reilly:    The Ceann Comhairle is putting it up to him.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I must ask Deputy Broughan to resume his seat.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    The Minister for Finance is doing nothing for this country. He cannot even read his own brief.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Broughan must now leave the House. Is Deputy Broughan going to leave the House? He must leave the House, because the Chair is on his feet and I have asked him several times.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    He could not hear the Ceann Comhairle

An Ceann Comhairle:    I would say he heard me, all right.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    Are we going to have a debate?

An Ceann Comhairle:    That cannot be raised now. The Deputy must leave the House, or I will have to move the motion. I have to ask the Deputy to leave the House, unfortunately.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    The Ceann Comhairle will be glad to know I am not going to raise the issue of crime this morning. There is so much of it about that I have nearly given up on it, and criminal negligence as well.

I want to raise two issues. One concerns the habitual residency clause that is now being applied by the Department of Social and Family Affairs, which is causing severe hardship to the sons and daughters of Irish parents and grandparents who do not qualify for a social welfare payment in the present climate——

[640]An Ceann Comhairle:    Will Deputy Durkan indicate the relevant legislation?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    I will indicate it to the Ceann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I have to move on, come to it because it is 11.30 a.m.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    The rules now being applied by the Department of Social and Family Affairs are not in accordance with EU law at all and are severely prejudicial to the entitlements of Irish people in this country. The Tánaiste is fully aware of this. The only possible way to discuss this is under the Bill to provide for the introduction of new means-tested payments for lone parents and families on low incomes. When will that be brought before the House, and will it be possible to introduce some other measure such as a consolidated Bill, that might deal with the issue I have raised?

An Ceann Comhairle:    We cannot deal with that. Will the Tánaiste please comment on the legislation itself?

The Tánaiste:    It is not possible to indicate when that legislation will be before the House.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    It never was possible. Could the Tánaiste please comment on the other matter, which is very pertinent in the present climate? I asked about it before. In view of the undertaking to the House by the Minister for Finance that he wished to see this county revert to traditional banking and lending practices and criteria, will the Tánaiste indicate when it is likely to be introduced? Do recent——

An Ceann Comhairle:    To what is the Deputy referring?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    ——negotiations that Minister has had with the banking institutions fall within the remit of his interpretation of what traditional practices should be?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I told the Deputy before that he cannot trawl or fish for legislation, for which he has a disposition.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    I am not trawling. It is already here.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy did not name it.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    It is called legislation to consolidate and modernise financial services legislation, in accordance with the Government’s better regulation agenda. What more appropriate subject could we have at this particular time?

The Tánaiste:    There is, at present, an advisory forum working on the proposed financial services regulation Bill and it is not possible to say when it will come before the House.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch:    In the run-up to the last election, the Green Party made enormous play on the issue of education. I want to call on the only Green Party Minister present to for God’s sake find his backbone and tell the Government it cannot withdraw the services of support teachers for defenceless children.

An Ceann Comhairle:    As Deputy Kathleen Lynch well knows, that is not in order. I do not want a double this morning. Deputy Kathleen Lynch must resume her seat.

[641]Deputy Kathleen Lynch:    I am pleading with the Minister, if he does nothing else, he should tell the Government that this is a step too far. For God’s sake, do not let them walk over the Green Party entirely.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Kathleen Lynch must resume her seat. She is out of order. I must move on.

Deputy Paul Connaughton:    Will the Tánaiste indicate if legislation is required to overcome the greatest breach of contract between the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the farmers of Ireland?

An Ceann Comhairle:    What legislation is at issue?

Deputy Paul Connaughton:    I am asking the Minister, because it is a breach of contract——

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    Hear, hear.

Deputy Paul Connaughton:    ——where they are not able to pay the farmers of Ireland.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy should put down a question or raise the matter on Adjournment. The Deputy is not in order.

Deputy Paul Connaughton:    It is the most disgraceful scene under any Minister for Agriculture since the State was founded.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle:    Has the Tánaiste a legislative provision in this regard? Is legislation promised in that area?

The Tánaiste:    Yes, it is.

Deputy Paul Connaughton:    It is promised. Now we are getting somewhere, a Cheann Comhairle.

The Tánaiste:    The Ceann Comhairle cannot be expected to know everything.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I was trying to find out whether Deputy Connaughton was in order or not, and I am still quite certain that he is not.

The Tánaiste:    There is legislation and it will be brought forward fairly quickly.

Deputy Denis Naughten:    We do not want legislation for Government bonds, either.

Deputy Brendan Smith:    When Fine Gael was in office in the 1980s there were not too many schemes in evidence.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins:    Might I ask about promised legislation that is on the list?

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle:    That is very interesting, now. I call Deputy Michael D. Higgins. Deputies Connaughton and Durkan should restrain themselves.

(Interruptions).

[642]Deputy Michael D. Higgins:    The atmosphere is becoming bucolic, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I detected that, Deputy.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins:    Might I ask about the foreshore legislation on the Government list to change functions and amend the Acts, 1933 to 2005? I believe there is also to be related legislation on port development, in so far as a number of ports have submitted plans that involve reclamation. Will legislation be introduced in this session or during this year, and in the meantime will foreshore application licences be granted under existing legislation, or are port development authorities expected to wait until the new legislation is in place? This is a very practical question.

The Tánaiste:    Tá mé dóchasach go mbeidh sé os mo chomhair i mbliana, this year.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins:    Gabh mo leithscéal, cén reachtaíocht a bheidh os do chomhair i mbliana?

The Tánaiste:    The foreshore (amendment) Bill.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins:    Go hiomlán, agus céard faoi na ceadúnais a luaigh mé? An mbeidh siad i measc na heagrais forálacha atáá chur isteach go dtí na Roinne nó an mbeidh——

The Tánaiste:    Tá mé ag leanúint ar aghaidh leis an dlí atá os mo chomhair ag an móimint.

Deputy David Stanton:    Members are frustrated that the Government has deferred any possibility of Dáil reform into the autumn, if ever, despite the need for it here every morning. I have two questions.

With regard to the decision of the Minster for Education and Science to get rid of special needs classes, will that require a ministerial order under secondary legislation, and what are the plans for that?

Deputy Kathleen Lynch:    We live in a dictatorship.

Deputy David Stanton:    That is it, yes. This measure affects the most vulnerable people in our society.

My other question is concerned with those who have intellectual disabilities, in nursing homes and such places, and for whom we made arrangements here that moneys would be repaid to them under the nursing homes scheme. There were major problems with that, however, and many of those people have not been able to access this finance. In this regard, it is possible the mental capacity Bill will help such people. It is impossible to get answers in any other way. These are very vulnerable people who cannot get the money that was taken from them illegally.

The Tánaiste:    There are two items of legislation dealing with mental health. The mental capacity Bill, which comes under the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, will be published later this year.

Deputy David Stanton:    What about the question of secondary legislation?

The Tánaiste:    There is no legislation required or a ministerial order.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy:    A report has been published by the OECD on what Ireland needs to do in terms of establishing training schemes for people who are unemployed. Could the Tánaiste organise a debate around that report because in her role as Minister for Enterprise, [643]Trade and Employment, it is important that we hear what she is planning to do for the unemployed. I am of the same generation as the Tánaiste, and when I was unemployed in the early 1990s, I was able to avail of social employment schemes that were set up by Deputy Ruairí Quinn when he occupied the office now held by the Tánaiste. There is nothing like that in evidence for people now.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy might table a question on that or raise it on the Adjournment. It is not in order at the moment.

Deputy Shane McEntee:    As regards the eligibility for health and social services Bill, there are 600 patients discharged by doctors and still lying in hospitals due to the fact that there are no outsource places for them. This is a waste to the taxpayer of €2.5 million a week.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy can only ask about legislation.

Deputy Shane McEntee:    When will legislation be introduced to deal with this? I have in mind one person in particular, concerning whom I have sent a letter to the Minister for Health and Children. He is a man who had been discharged from hospital ten months ago, but was only let out the other day. In the meantime, he fell within the hospital.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I cannot allow that.

Deputy Shane McEntee:    When will be a proper Bill be introduced to deal with such cases?

The Tánaiste:    I am not in a position to indicate a date, as yet.

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Last Updated: 07/10/2010 15:20:59

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