Order of Business. Thursday, 2 July 2009

Dáil Eireann Debate Vol. 686 No. 4 Page of 176

The Tánaiste:    It is proposed to take No. 26, Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009 — Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; No. 27, Companies (Amendment) Bill 2009 [Seanad] — Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; No. 2, European Parliament (Irish Constituency Members) Bill 2009 [Seanad] — Second and Subsequent Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10 p.m.; in the event of the motion re by-election for Donegal being moved, No. a12, the proceedings shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 20 minutes today and the speeches shall be confined to the main spokespersons for Sinn Féin, the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and to a Minister or Minister of State, who shall be called upon in that order and who may share their time, which shall not exceed five minutes in each case; Report and Final Stages of No. 26 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 2 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for [3]Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Question Time today shall be taken on the conclusion of No. 26 or at 2 p.m., whichever is the later, for 75 minutes, and in the event of a Private Notice Question being allowed, it shall be taken after 45 minutes and the order shall resume thereafter; Report and Final Stages of No. 27 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 5.15 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment; the following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. 2: the proceedings on Second Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 8 p.m. tonight; the proceedings on Committee and Remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m. tonight by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance.

The Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and adjourn not later than 9 p.m.; there shall be no Order of Business within the meaning of Standing Order 26; the taking of any divisions shall be postponed until immediately after the Order of Business on Tuesday, 7 July 2009, and accordingly, the following business shall be transacted in the following order: No. 5, Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill 2009 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, which shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 3.30 p.m. on that day; and No. 27a, statements on the OECD and IMF reports, which shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 9 p.m. on that day, and the following arrangements shall apply: the statements of a Minister or Minister of State and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, Labour Party and Sinn Féin, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; the statements of other Members called upon shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; Members may share time; and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed ten minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle:    There are seven proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. a12, motion re by-election for Donegal South-West, agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 26, Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009 — Order for Report Stage and Report and Final Stages agreed to?

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I assume the Tánaiste wants the Donegal South-West by-election to take place as quickly as possible, a move we support. I understand there are ten proposals involving a guillotine in respect of business this week and next. Given that we have had a complete scarcity of legislation on so many occasions in the past 12 months, this is not the way to do business. No. 26 is the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009, an important Bill which deals with important issues. I object to the debate on it being guillotined in this fashion.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    I also object to this proposal. The Order of Business presented by the Tánaiste is ludicrous. Yesterday we had one and three quarter hours allocated for the debate on the Health Insurance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2008 to which there were 84 amendments on Report Stage. Three and a half hours were allocated for the debate on the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Bill 2006, to which there were 41 amendments on Report Stage. Today, it is proposed to allocate two to two and a half hours for the debate on the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009, to which there are 18 amendments on Report Stage. It is then proposed to allocate one and a half hours for the debate on Report and Final Stages of the Companies (Amendment) Bill 2009 to which there is one amendment. Finally, it is proposed to allocate four and three quarters hours to deal with all Stages of the [4]European Parliament (Irish Constituency Members) Bill 2009, relating to the method of payment to Members of the European Parliament, to which, I understand, no amendments have been tabled.

It would be possible to take these three Bills today without any guillotine if they were ordered the other way around. We could deal quickly with the European Parliament (Irish Constituency Members) Bill 2009 and the one amendment to the Companies (Amendment) Bill 2009. That would leave a decent amount of time to deal with the 18 amendments to the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009. All of this business could probably be done without any guillotine. However, it seems the business of the House is being ordered for the convenience of Ministers, not with a view to dealing comprehensively with legislation.

Deputies:  Hear, hear.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    I ask the Tánaiste to reverse the order of the Bills in the sensible manner I have suggested.

I also draw attention to the arrangements for next week. By my count, there are 12 proposals involving a guillotine. Four of the items of legislation the House is being asked to deal with next week are entirely new and have not appeared before the House thus far. Two of the Bills have yet to be published, one of which deals with the forthcoming referendum on the Lisbon treaty. Among all of this, 90 minutes will be allocated next Tuesday for the debate on Committee, Report and Final Stages of the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill 2009 which has far-reaching implications for the criminal justice system. Whatever Members’ views on its content, 90 minutes is hardly sufficient time to allow the degree of scrutiny a Bill of this type requires.

It is not unusual that we find ourselves in a position at the end of a Dáil session where the Government is using the guillotine to push through legislation, either to get it out of the way or to minimise the amount of public attention it will receive. However, on this occasion, it has taken the use of the guillotine and the ordering of business to a new level of ridiculousness.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    Deputy Gilmore has comprehensively covered the issues. It only remains for me to indicate that the Sinn Féin Deputies oppose the imposition of a guillotine in regard to the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009. With the tabling of 18 amendments and the import of what is involved, it requires more time than is being offered. At the same time, it may well be the case that the guillotine will not be needed in the sequence the Tánaiste and Chief Whip have presented. We should allow each Bill to have its natural time. Just as the Government has been surprised in the past, it could be surprised again.

The Tánaiste:    Several references were made to next week’s business, with which we are not dealing today. We will certainly take on board the views expressed by Members. The Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009 has gone through Second and Committee Stages during which Members had an opportunity to say what they needed to say. We are now dealing with Report and Final Stages. The legislation must be passed as quickly as possible in order that we can allow the new licensing and renewal system to be put in place. The Companies (Amendment) Bill 2009 is of regulatory importance and also needs to be passed by the House as soon as possible. The same urgency attaches to the European Parliament (Irish Constituency Members) Bill 2009. Perhaps if the House aimed to have the Order of Business agreed to before 1 p.m., there might be more time for the debates on these Bills. Given the circumstances, I am not in a position to change the order on the basis that it has been agreed with the Whips.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    It was not agreed with the Whips.

[5]Question put: “That the proposal for dealing with No. 26 be agreed to.”

The Dáil divided: Tá, 76; Níl, 70.

Tá
Ahern, Dermot.	Ahern, Michael.
Ahern, Noel.	Andrews, Chris.
Ardagh, Seán.	Blaney, Niall.
Brady, Áine.	Brady, Cyprian.
Brady, Johnny.	Browne, John.
Byrne, Thomas.	Calleary, Dara.
Carey, Pat.	Collins, Niall.
Conlon, Margaret.	Connick, Seán.
Coughlan, Mary.	Cregan, John.
Cuffe, Ciarán.	Cullen, Martin.
Curran, John.	Dempsey, Noel.
Devins, Jimmy.	Dooley, Timmy.
Finneran, Michael.	Fitzpatrick, Michael.
Fleming, Seán.	Flynn, Beverley.
Gogarty, Paul.	Gormley, John.
Grealish, Noel.	Hanafin, Mary.
Harney, Mary.	Haughey, Seán.
Healy-Rae, Jackie.	Hoctor, Máire.
Kelleher, Billy.	Kelly, Peter.
Kenneally, Brendan.	Kennedy, Michael.
Killeen, Tony.	Kirk, Seamus.
Kitt, Michael P.	Lenihan, Brian.
Lenihan, Conor.	Lowry, Michael.
McEllistrim, Thomas.	McGrath, Mattie.
McGuinness, John.	Mansergh, Martin.
Martin, Micheál.	Moloney, John.
Moynihan, Michael.	Mulcahy, Michael.
Nolan, M. J.	Ó Cuív, Éamon.
Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.	O’Brien, Darragh.
O’Connor, Charlie.	O’Dea, Willie.
O’Flynn, Noel.	O’Hanlon, Rory.
O’Keeffe, Batt.	O’Keeffe, Edward.
O’Rourke, Mary.	O’Sullivan, Christy.
Power, Peter.	Power, Seán.
Roche, Dick.	Ryan, Eamon.
Sargent, Trevor.	Scanlon, Eamon.
Treacy, Noel.	Wallace, Mary.
White, Mary Alexandra.	Woods, Michael.

Níl
Bannon, James.	Behan, Joe.
Breen, Pat.	Bruton, Richard.
Burke, Ulick.	Burton, Joan.
Byrne, Catherine.	Carey, Joe.
Clune, Deirdre.	Connaughton, Paul.
Coonan, Noel J.	Coveney, Simon.
Crawford, Seymour.	Creed, Michael.
Creighton, Lucinda.	Deasy, John.
Deenihan, Jimmy.	Doyle, Andrew.
Durkan, Bernard J.	English, Damien.
Enright, Olwyn.	Feighan, Frank.
Ferris, Martin.	Flanagan, Charles.
Flanagan, Terence.	Gilmore, Eamon.
Hayes, Brian.	Hayes, Tom.
Higgins, Michael D.	Hogan, Phil.
Howlin, Brendan.	Kehoe, Paul.
Kenny, Enda.	Lee, George.
Lynch, Ciarán.	Lynch, Kathleen.
McCormack, Pádraic.	McEntee, Shane.
McGinley, Dinny.	McGrath, Finian.
McHugh, Joe.	McManus, Liz.
Naughten, Denis.	Neville, Dan.
Noonan, Michael.	Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.	O’Donnell, Kieran.
O’Dowd, Fergus.	O’Keeffe, Jim.
O’Mahony, John.	O’Shea, Brian.
O’Sullivan, Jan.	O’Sullivan, Maureen.
Penrose, Willie.	Perry, John.
Quinn, Ruairí.	Rabbitte, Pat.
Ring, Michael.	Sheahan, Tom.
Sheehan, P. J.	Sherlock, Seán.
Shortall, Róisín.	Stagg, Emmet.
Stanton, David.	Timmins, Billy.
Tuffy, Joanna.	Upton, Mary.
Varadkar, Leo.	Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    On a point of order, before the vote, the Tánaiste stated that the Whips agreed to the business of the House for this and next week at their last meeting.

The Tánaiste:    I did not.

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    She did.

Deputy Damien English:    She can check the record if she wants.

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    If she wants the co-operation of my party in next week’s business, she will retract that statement.

An Ceann Comhairle:    That is not a point of order.

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    It is a point of order. I did not agree to guillotines.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I have to decide whether it is a point of order.

Deputy Timmy Dooley:    Challenging the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle:    It is not a point of order.

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    I ask the Tánaiste to retract her statement——

An Ceann Comhairle:    It is not a point of order.

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    ——if her party wants co-operation from Fine Gael until the end of this session.

Deputy Seán Power:    The Deputy should not take himself too seriously.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle:    It is not a point of order, as Deputy Stagg knows. Nobody is more familiar with the rules and procedures than he.

[7]Deputy Emmet Stagg:    I might have something different to say.

Deputy Billy Kelleher:    Deputy Stagg never co-operates anyway.

Deputy Willie Penrose:    Deputy Stagg was in order.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    The Tánaiste may have inadvertently misled the House by stating that the Fine Gael and Labour Party Whips agreed to the order of business. That is not accurate, however. I am not suggesting that she would deliberately mislead the House——

Deputy Michael D. Higgins:    Never.

Deputy Pat Carey:    Nor would the Chief Whip.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    ——but it might have been inadvertent.

An Ceann Comhairle:    If it was an inadvertent mistake, that is a different matter.

The Tánaiste:    There was no mistake. The same antics take place every time we come to the end of a session.

Deputy Damien English:    She cannot keep telling lies.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins:    The antics went on in the banks but the Government did not do much about them.

The Tánaiste:    For the information of the Fine Gael Whip, who obviously listened to only part of my contribution, I stated that I listened to what the Opposition Members had to say regarding next week’s business in the context of the time available for the criminal justice legislation.

Deputy Damien English:    She said the business was agreed. She cannot just tell lies like that.

The Tánaiste:    In the context of the agreement with the Whips——

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    Get the blacks.

The Tánaiste:    ——the method by which the schedule was agreed was the same for this week’s business as it has been for every week since we started.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I must ask——

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle:    It is not a point of order, as the Deputy well knows.

Deputy John Moloney:    A pint of Smithwicks.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack:    The Tánaiste is getting excited about the election.

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    On a point of order, if the Tánaiste and the Government Whip wants Fine Gael’s co-operation next week, she will retract what she said.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Is the proposal for dealing with Question Time today agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 27 agreed to?

[8]Deputy Enda Kenny:    It is not agreed. This is one of ten guillotines and it is not the way to do business.

Deputy Billy Kelleher:    There is only one amendment.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    We have mentioned this repeatedly for the past seven or eight months and I will continue to object on the basis that this is important legislation. Many people around the country have been affected by the antics in the banks and the decisions made on issues such as directors’ loans. This is an important matter which should be discussed properly and I object to the principle of a guillotine.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    I will not repeat what I said previously other than to say that the Government is taking a contemptuous attitude to the House in the way it is ordering business and insisting on guillotines.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    I oppose the use of the guillotine on this proposition. With only one amendment, it is not necessary. We should allow the business to be addressed in the normal course of business.

The Tánaiste:    A considerable amount of debate has taken place on Second Stage of this Bill and I do not anticipate significant difficulties on Report Stage. However, we are not prepared to change the schedule as proposed.

Question put: “That the proposal for dealing with No. 27 be agreed to.”

The Dáil divided: Tá, 77; Níl, 71.

Tá
Ahern, Dermot.	Ahern, Michael.
Ahern, Noel.	Andrews, Chris.
Ardagh, Seán.	Aylward, Bobby.
Blaney, Niall.	Brady, Áine.
Brady, Cyprian.	Brady, Johnny.
Browne, John.	Byrne, Thomas.
Calleary, Dara.	Carey, Pat.
Collins, Niall.	Conlon, Margaret.
Connick, Seán.	Coughlan, Mary.
Cregan, John.	Cuffe, Ciarán.
Cullen, Martin.	Curran, John.
Dempsey, Noel.	Devins, Jimmy.
Dooley, Timmy.	Finneran, Michael.
Fitzpatrick, Michael.	Fleming, Seán.
Flynn, Beverley.	Gogarty, Paul.
Gormley, John.	Grealish, Noel.
Hanafin, Mary.	Harney, Mary.
Haughey, Seán.	Healy-Rae, Jackie.
Hoctor, Máire.	Kelleher, Billy.
Kelly, Peter.	Kenneally, Brendan.
Kennedy, Michael.	Killeen, Tony.
Kirk, Seamus.	Kitt, Michael P.
Lenihan, Brian.	Lenihan, Conor.
Lowry, Michael.	McEllistrim, Thomas.
McGrath, Mattie.	McGuinness, John.
Mansergh, Martin.	Martin, Micheál.
Moloney, John.	Moynihan, Michael.
Mulcahy, Michael.	Nolan, M. J.
Ó Cuív, Éamon.	Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
O’Brien, Darragh.	O’Connor, Charlie.
O’Dea, Willie.	O’Flynn, Noel.
O’Hanlon, Rory.	O’Keeffe, Batt.
O’Keeffe, Edward.	O’Rourke, Mary.
O’Sullivan, Christy.	Power, Peter.
Power, Seán.	Roche, Dick.
Ryan, Eamon.	Sargent, Trevor.
Scanlon, Eamon.	Treacy, Noel.
Wallace, Mary.	White, Mary Alexandra.
Woods, Michael.

Níl
Bannon, James.	Behan, Joe.
Breen, Pat.	Bruton, Richard.
Burke, Ulick.	Burton, Joan.
Byrne, Catherine.	Carey, Joe.
Clune, Deirdre.	Connaughton, Paul.
Coonan, Noel J.	Coveney, Simon.
Crawford, Seymour.	Creed, Michael.
Creighton, Lucinda.	D’Arcy, Michael.
Deasy, John.	Deenihan, Jimmy.
Doyle, Andrew.	Durkan, Bernard J.
English, Damien.	Enright, Olwyn.
Feighan, Frank.	Ferris, Martin.
Flanagan, Charles.	Flanagan, Terence.
Gilmore, Eamon.	Hayes, Brian.
Hayes, Tom.	Higgins, Michael D.
Hogan, Phil.	Howlin, Brendan.
Kehoe, Paul.	Kenny, Enda.
Lee, George.	Lynch, Ciarán.
Lynch, Kathleen.	McCormack, Pádraic.
McEntee, Shane.	McGinley, Dinny.
McGrath, Finian.	McHugh, Joe.
McManus, Liz.	Naughten, Denis.
Neville, Dan.	Noonan, Michael.
Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.	Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
O’Donnell, Kieran.	O’Dowd, Fergus.
O’Keeffe, Jim.	O’Mahony, John.
O’Shea, Brian.	O’Sullivan, Jan.
O’Sullivan, Maureen.	Penrose, Willie.
Perry, John.	Quinn, Ruairí.
Rabbitte, Pat.	Ring, Michael.
Sheahan, Tom.	Sheehan, P. J.
Sherlock, Seán.	Shortall, Róisín.
Stagg, Emmet.	Stanton, David.
Timmins, Billy.	Tuffy, Joanna.
Upton, Mary.	Varadkar, Leo.
Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Is the proposal for dealing with No. 2, European Parliament (Irish Constituency Members) Bill 2009 [Seanad] — Order for Second Stage and Second and Subsequent Stages, agreed to? Agreed.

Is the proposal for dealing with the Dáil sitting tomorrow agreed to? Agreed.

I call Deputy Kenny on the Order of Business.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I wish to refer to the number of guillotines the Government has proposed for this week and next. In the past, we have had experience of legislation being guillotined and issues have subsequently arisen that have caused some difficulty. This morning, I listened to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government who said he [10]had to seek advice from the Attorney General overnight because he did not understand the difference between a granny-flat in the garden or one attached to a house. I received a letter today from a family whose father suffers from dementia and is in a nursing home full-time. They have been trying for the last 12 months to sell that house but cannot do so due to the market situation.

An Ceann Comhairle:    A question on legislation please.

  11 o’clock

Deputy Enda Kenny:    They will now have to pay this tax. I was interested in the remarks made yesterday by the Taoiseach who said that we need to have a thorough discussion about the NAMA legislation, which is right and proper. I want to know when the legislation will come before the House, for two reasons. First, there is a crisis with substantial numbers of people with whom banks will not deal because they are in the pre-NAMA phase. Reuters reports this morning that there has been a change and that NAMA will only acquire loans of €5 million or over on the books of the Bank of Ireland and AIB.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We cannot have a question on NAMA now.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    That will reduce the number from 14,000 to about 1,500.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Let us stick with the legislation, Deputy.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    The point I am making is that there will be further substantial job losses unless some movement is made in bank credit and overdraft facilities in the meantime before NAMA becomes operational. In that context, and arising from the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government having to go to the Attorney General in the middle of the night, when NAMA acquires a substantial number of houses from developers will they be paying the €200 tax on the second and third houses the Minister is talking about?

An Ceann Comhairle:    We cannot have that debate now. The Deputy can only ask about legislation that is to be discussed in the House. Deputy Kenny must appreciate that there are no Leaders’ Questions on Thursday. It is not my call.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    When will we see the NAMA legislation coming before the House?

The Taoiseach has confirmed that the Government supports the appointment of José Manuel Barroso as President of the European Commission. Given the crisis facing Europe, including Ireland, it is important that the Commission has a President as soon as possible after the European Parliament elections.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We cannot discuss the leadership of the European Commission at this stage.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I will explain why it is important.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy should ask questions that are in order.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    The Taoiseach has made it clear that the Government will support Mr. Barroso’s appointment, as I do. I want to know from the Tánaiste why the three Fianna Fáil MEPs are now involved in a blocking mechanism to prevent that appointment taking place early in July.

[11]An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy is out of order. There are several other ways of raising that matter, but this is not the way.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform may scoff if he likes.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am not allowing that question.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    Perhaps he was not in the House when we had that debate.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I have to implement the rules.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    He is getting advice.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    The people who voted in the European elections have been paying the ransom.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We cannot allow that.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    The Taoiseach said the Government supports the appointment of José Manuel Barroso as president.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We cannot go on with that now.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I want to know from the Tánaiste why the three Fianna Fáil MEPs——

An Ceann Comhairle:    We cannot have a post-mortem on the European elections on the Order of Business.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    ——are acting in contravention of the Taoiseach’s own statement——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Post-mortems can be held somewhere else — another time, another place, another day — but not now.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    ——that the Government will support the appointment of Mr. Barroso as soon as possible.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy will have to find another way of finding out about it, for the fifteenth time.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    If the Ceann Comhairle wants to keep talking and I keep talking we will not get anywhere.

An Ceann Comhairle:    That is right and we definitely will not get anywhere if the Deputy keeps asking a question which I have ruled out of order.

Deputy Dick Roche:    The Ceann Comhairle has more sense.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    We are not at the fair in Cahirciveen now.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Correct. The Deputy will have to respect the Chair if he does not mind. I call Deputy Burton.

(Interruptions).

[12]Deputy Enda Kenny:    The Fianna Fáil MEPs are involved in a blocking mechanism to the appointment of Mr. Barroso as President of the Commission.

Deputy Billy Kelleher:    There is no legislation required in that area.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    The Tánaiste can hear what I said, despite the continuous interruptions of the Ceann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Burton on the same issue, the NAMA legislation.

Deputy Joan Burton:    In respect of the NAMA legislation, could I ask——

Deputy Enda Kenny:    Excuse me, I asked a question about whether the legislation dealing with NAMA is coming before the House.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Yes and we are going to ask the Tánaiste to answer that.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    The Ceann Comhairle is now talking to Deputy Burton, which is fine.

An Ceann Comhairle:    It is because she asked me if she could intervene on the same issue.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    She did not ask about José Manuel Barroso——

An Ceann Comhairle:    No.

Deputy Billy Kelleher:    No legislation is required for that.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    ——and why the three Fianna Fáil MEPs are involved in a blocking mechanism.

An Ceann Comhairle:    If she does so, I will tell her what I told Deputy Kenny — that it is not in order.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I want to know the answer to that question as well.

An Ceann Comhairle:    That is not in order now. The Deputy will have to find another way of raising that.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    A Cheann Comhairle, this is important.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I cannot allow it under Standing Orders. I did not make the Standing Orders. If Members want to change Standing Orders I would be only too delighted. If they want to have Question Time on Thursday morning, I would be only too delighted, but I cannot accede to the Deputy’s request much as I would like to.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I want to ask a further question.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Kenny should raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    When the Lisbon referendum Bill is introduced next week, will we get clarification as to why the three Fianna Fáil MEPs are involved in a blocking mechanism?

Deputy Dick Roche:    The Deputy is wasting time.

[13]An Ceann Comhairle:    This is a parliamentary democracy and I have to implement the rules governing it. If I do not do so, we will not have a parliamentary process any more. I cannot allow it.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    The Tánaiste has the answer on the tip of her tongue.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Either I implement the Standing Orders of the House or I do not. Deputies can change the rules if they want to.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I wish to ask about the referendum Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The referendum Bill is a different matter. The Deputy can ask about that.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    The referendum Bill next week deals with the Lisbon referendum. Either we appoint a Commission president under the Nice treaty or the Lisbon treaty. We need a President of the Commission appointed quickly. The Minister of State, Deputy Roche, knows this. If the Ceann Comhairle will not allow the question now, will we get clarification next week as to why the three Fianna Fáil MEPs are acting in contravention of what the Taoiseach himself said at the heads of government meeting? He announced, rightly, that he would support Barroso.

Deputy Dick Roche:    The Deputy should send the transcripts of this debate to Mr. Barroso’s office saying he made representations on his behalf.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Stop now. The other part is out of order. The ancillary question is also out of order. The Deputy was asking about the referendum Bill. Deputy Burton wanted to ask about the NAMA legislation, as Deputy Kenny did before he strayed into the three Fianna Fáil MEPs which cannot be allowed. I call Deputy Burton.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    What about my question to the Tánaiste?

An Ceann Comhairle:    Yes, we are going to ask her about that Bill.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    There is a continuous stream of gobbledegook from the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I would remind Deputy Kenny that the Chair does not interrupt, it merely intervenes. I call Deputy Burton.

Deputy Joan Burton:    I do not know Mr. Barroso well, but I feel I know a little bit more about him now. I specifically want to ask a question in respect of NAMA. The Minister promised that we would have the heads of the Bill before the summer recess, including the publication of the critical question of the valuation method and whether the taxpayer bails out the banks or is taken for €35 billion to €40 billion.

The Government promised that we would have the heads of the Bill before the Dáil rose. I understand that the Dáil is possibly going to come back for a week on September 18 and then recess for the Lisbon referendum, which will possibly take place on 2 October. Is it true that at that point we will take the NAMA legislation, or will we even have the legislation by then? Will we have the heads of the Bill by the time we go into recess next week?

An Ceann Comhairle:    You have made your point.

Deputy Joan Burton:    This is the most important economic decision this country will make, bar dealing with the issue of mass unemployment.

[14]An Ceann Comhairle:    There is no need to elaborate.

Deputy Joan Burton:    If we spend too much, we will not have money to spend on getting people back to work.

An Ceann Comhairle:    You must remain in order.

The Tánaiste:    The parliamentary draftsmen are working on the NAMA legislation. It is anticipated that it will be published in July and, if necessary, the House may be recalled to discuss the legislation. The referendum Bill will be discussed next week.

Deputy Joan Burton:    Is the Tánaiste now saying we will not get the heads of this Bill, including the valuation method, before the Dáil goes into recess? This is the biggest financial decision the State has faced since September’s guarantee.

Deputy Billy Kelleher:    The Labour Party bottled that decision as well.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Burton, one bite of the cherry is more than sufficient.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    There is a report in today’s Irish Examiner that over 70,000 people who have lost their jobs are waiting for their welfare payments to be processed. Will the Government ensure that there will be prompt processing of those welfare claims?

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Gilmore knows well that is not in order. There is a full economic debate due for tomorrow, and that can be discussed then.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    Can I ask about the report by what is known as an bord snip nua? We had been led to understand that the report would be presented to the Government before the end of June. Presumably, the Government would have been in a position to inform the House about the report and possibly publish it before the summer recess. It would appear that the report will not be available to the Government. There have been reports in newspapers suggesting that it might not be available to the Government until the autumn. When does the Government expect to receive and consider the McCarthy report? Can we be given an assurance that the report will be published? The content of that report will have major implications for public finances and for the organisation of public services. It is important that we all have access to what is in that report.

The Tánaiste:    The finalisation of this document has not happened. It will be given to the Minister for Finance next week. It will then be brought before the Government, which will then determine whether its publication will be appropriate. That decision has not been made.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    Can I just comment on that?

An Ceann Comhairle:    Strictly speaking, the question that can be asked on this report is whether it is to be laid before the Houses. There has not been a promise to do so, so we are straying outside the strict rules. Anyway, it appears you have something to say briefly.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    I will be very brief. I now understand from the Tánaiste that this will be presented to the Minister for Finance next week, and will be considered by the Government thereafter. Will it be considered by the Government before it breaks for its own holidays? Can the Tánaiste indicate to us when that will be? When will that document be laid before the House?

[15]The Tánaiste:    It will be highly likely that it will be made available once the Minister for Finance has received it.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    Highly likely?

The Tánaiste:    I am talking about it being made available to the Cabinet. As I am only one member of the Cabinet, I am not in a position to make a decision as to whether it will be published or not until the Cabinet meets to discuss it.

Deputy Phil Hogan:    Can the Tánaiste indicate when a local government Bill will be brought forward to implement the commitment to freeze commercial rates in local authorities, in the interest of protecting employment? There is a Bill before the Seanad at the moment.

The Tánaiste:    The Local Government (Charges) Bill 2009 will be brought before this House next Thursday.

Deputy Phil Hogan:    There is a commitment made in the programme for Government, in the context of the local elections, to freeze commercial rates for the purposes of protecting employment. The Tánaiste’s Department was involved in that as well.

Deputy Billy Kelleher:    Fine Gael are running the councils now with Sinn Féin.

Deputy Dermot Ahern:    That is a matter for the Deputy’s party now.

Deputy Phil Hogan:    We know our responsibility. We also know about the responsibility of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Deputy Dick Roche:    Fine Gael has the power to change that in every council in the country.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I think the Bill to which Deputy refers is in the Seanad, and on that basis, it will be a matter for another place.

Deputy Phil Hogan:    Can I take it that the commitment given by Fianna Fáil and the Tánaiste is not being implemented?

Deputy Dermot Ahern:    Did the Deputy read that fully?

Deputy Phil Hogan:    I did. I did not have to go to the Attorney General while the Minister was asleep.

Deputy Dermot Ahern:    Over to the Deputy.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Allow the Tánaiste to answer.

Deputy Dick Roche:    Fine Gael has the power to do that on every council.

Deputy Charles Flanagan:    It was a desperate and cynical attempt to get votes which did not work.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We can have this conversation elsewhere.

The Tánaiste:    The issue refers to the local government manifesto on behalf of Fianna Fáil. It indicated that if we were returned as a majority we would implement those changes. Given that we do not have a majority, then it will be a matter for the Opposition.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    That is the most cynical response I have ever heard.

[16]Deputy Phil Hogan:    So the Tánaiste is saying that there is no intention on behalf of the Government to bring forward legislation to freeze commercial rates, as it has done in the past.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Deirdre Clune:    Can I ask about the consumer and competition Bill? There is a price war ongoing in our supermarkets. That is ultimately going to end up with increased prices for consumers, lack of choice, possible market domination in some areas and ultimately job losses, which is most serious. We have reports from Forfás, the Competition Authority, and the National Consumer Agency that look at baskets of goods, comparing them and wagging their finger. When will we see the Consumer and Competition Bill, which will amalgamate the National Consumer Agency and the Competition Authority?

The Tánaiste:    Work is ongoing on that Bill. I hope to have it in the next session.

Deputy Michael Ring:    I would like to ask the Tánaiste a question about the Údarás na Gaeltachta Bill. She is from the Gaeltacht herself. Two hundred badly needed jobs were approved by the Údarás. A total of 22,000 people went on the live register last month. We have over 420,000 people unemployed in this country. The Údarás has approved 200 jobs, but it has no funding. What is the Tánaiste going to do about it? The embargoes of the IDA and Enterprise Ireland have been lifted. Will the Tánaiste speak to the Minister for Finance, provide that money for the Údarás and provide badly needed jobs for the Gaeltacht areas and for rural Ireland?

An Ceann Comhairle:    We cannot discuss the policies of Údarás na Gaeltachta. I call on the Tánaiste to speak on the Údarás na Gaeltachta Bill.

Deputy Dinny McGinley:    Tá an ceart aige. Níl pingin amháin fághta ag Údarás na Gaeltachta. Tá sé in am rud éigin a dhéanamh.

The Tánaiste:    Tá an Tánaiste agus an t-Aire, an Teachta Ó Cuiv, ag déanamh gach iarracht maidir leis na rudaí seo i dtús báire. Níl dáta socraithe go fóill don Bhille.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd:    In view of the fact that the flash floods caused such chaos in Dublin last night and people were warned on RTE this morning not to leave their homes except for emergencies, why has the Dublin Transport AuthorityAct 2008 not been implemented? It was promised that the chief executive would be in place by January of this year. When will the Dublin Transport Authority be in place to deal with these emergency situations?

The Tánaiste:    I will revert to the Deputy on that.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd:    Fine. In view of the fact that the report of the commission of inquiry into Leas Cross is in the hands of the Minister for Health and Children since 10 June, why has been delayed by the Cabinet? Why has it not been debated in this House? Why is the Government delaying its publication?

An Ceann Comhairle:    As I told Deputy Gilmore earlier, the question, which is appropriate, relates to reports to be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Tánaiste:    There is no date or decision on that. The Cabinet has not yet considered the report.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd:    It has it since 10 June. Why is it delaying it?

[17]The Tánaiste:    We are not delaying it.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd:    It is delaying it. It should have gone to Cabinet and been published weeks ago.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    In view of the breakdown in the relationship between the Minister for Health and Children and the pharmacists, which will result in serious hardship and risk to patients, is it intended to reintroduce the Pharmacy (No. 2) Bill which was on the legislative programme up to approximately six months ago and which was mysteriously dropped from it? Is it intended to reintroduce it to enable the House have a full debate on this vital issue?

The Tánaiste:    We are awaiting the full enactment of the Pharmacy (No. 1) Bill before we consider whether more legislation needs to be introduced.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    Does that mean patients may suffer and the services provided by pharmacists will be seriously undermined?

An Ceann Comhairle:    What it means or does not mean is not relevant now, unfortunately. The Deputy will have to discuss that when the Bill is being discussed.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    The Tánaiste said the Pharmacy (No. 1) Bill must be fully operational.

An Ceann Comhairle:    That is right.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    Does that mean the Pharmacy (No. 2) Bill will not be introduced at all?

The Tánaiste:    I will ask the Minister for Health and Children to revert to the Deputy. The decision was to drop this legislation until we finalised the full enactment of the Pharmacy
(No. 1) Bill.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    I wish to raise two items. Perhaps in preparation for the session after the summer recess, the Ceann Comhairle, in his position as Chairman of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, might have the inadequate acoustics in this Chamber addressed. On several occasions, it has been impossible for Deputies located in different locations in the Chamber to hear the Chair. An example of that was this morning in regard to tomorrow’s Order Paper. I was unable to hear what the Ceann Comhairle proposed and, belatedly, I must record that I oppose it. Those are the facts of the matter. I record that I would have opposed the proposition in regard to the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill 2009 and will do so again at any opportunity open to me.

In regard to the expected publication of a new schedule of legislation by the Government in September, can special efforts be employed over the summer recess to address the significant backlog in promised legislation from the Department of Health and Children? I speak specifically about long promised legislation about which the Government stated it is not possible to indicate when publication will take place.

I am concerned about two Bills, in particular, the Nurses and Midwives Bill and the eligibility for health and personal and social services Bill. Each of these is hugely important and I appeal to the Government not to produce a promised programme of legislation in September which will again confine this important legislation to the margins, not to be realised for God knows how long.

[18]The Tánaiste:    The heads of the Nurses and Midwives Bill were approved in March with an expectation that the legislation would come in next year. I will ask the Minister to get an update on the eligibility for health and personal and social services Bill for the Deputy.

Deputy Tom Sheahan:    On what legislative basis was the Sea Fisheries Protection Authority set up? Was it under primary or secondary legislation?

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy could go to the Library about that.

Deputy Tom Sheahan:    Does it have autonomy in determining policy? Is it accountable to the Minister? This stems from a question which was disallowed by the Ceann Comhairle in which I asked for an inquiry——

An Ceann Comhairle:    This question must be disallowed as well.

Deputy Tom Sheahan:    I must get an answer somewhere.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Unfortunately, we have a double. The Deputy will have to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Deputy Tom Sheahan:    Who will answer me then?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I do not know but we will find out.

Deputy Tom Sheahan:    Is the Sea Fisheries Protection Authority accountable to the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food?

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Sheahan should raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Deputy Tom Sheahan:    What is the alternative?

An Ceann Comhairle:    There is no alternative. The Standing Orders do not allow the question. It is straightforward enough.

Deputy Tom Sheahan:    I must get an answer.

An Ceann Comhairle:    All right but the Deputy cannot get it here.

Deputy Tom Sheahan:    Who will answer me in an Adjournment debate?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I cannot deal with that on the Order of Business.

Deputy Tom Sheahan:    I have had so many questions disallowed that I might as well ask them outside the gates of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Unfortunately, Deputy Sheahan is not the only one.

Deputy Pat Breen:    On Tuesday night last, the Aviation (Preclearance) Bill passed through this House and was supported all parties. The Minister for Transport will probably come down to Shannon Airport to launch the facility with fanfare at the end of July. I wish to get assurances from the Tánaiste. There are rumours that our national airline, Aer Lingus, will not use this facility in Shannon Airport when it comes into operation on 30 July.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We cannot have a question on who is or who is not going to use the facility, as Deputy Breen well knows. I am aware he probably has a very good reason for asking it.

[19]Deputy Pat Breen:    I ask this question because the Government has a 25% shareholding in Aer Lingus.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy will have to find another way to raise this matter.

Deputy Pat Breen:    If I could get assurances from the Tánaiste——

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy will not get any assurances because the question is not in order.

Deputy Pat Breen:    ——that the board members nominated by the Government——

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy will have to raise the matter on the Adjournment or table a parliamentary question——

Deputy Pat Breen:    ——will ensure Aer Lingus uses this facility.

An Ceann Comhairle:    ——and then I feel certain he will get an answer.

Deputy Pat Breen:    Rumour has it that it will not use it because of the cost.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We cannot discuss this on the Order of Business.

Deputy Pat Breen:    It sends out a very bad signal in terms of attracting other carriers——

An Ceann Comhairle:    I cannot rule the Deputy in order when everybody else has been ruled out of order in regard to other matters.

Deputy Pat Breen:    ——into the region if Aer Lingus does not use this facility.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I must call Deputy Rabbitte.

Deputy Pat Breen:    Will the Tánaiste give me assurances on that?

An Ceann Comhairle:    She cannot do so, as the Deputy well knows.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte:    I wish to ask the Tánaiste about the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill 2009 which involves the Oireachtas making a declaration that the ordinary courts are inadequate to cope with organised crime. I understand an hour and three quarters has been rostered next week for Committee and Report Stages.

We usually come into the House to ask for more time after the event. I ask the Tánaiste if she will discuss this again with the Chief Whip. Given the landmark nature of this Bill and its departure from the established criminal justice system, there is a necessity for us to be provided with time on Committee and Report Stages to deal with the very important issues which arise.

The Tánaiste:    Given the importance of that legislation, we indicated that we would look at additional time being made available next week for Committee and Report Stages. That can be addressed with the Whips. Tuigim go raibh na Whips míshásta. Given that the Whips were apoplectic about the fact they were of the opinion I misled the House, which I did not do, the Chief Whip has advised that there was agreement on the business but that the Whips were opposed to the way in which it was proposed. As I said to Deputy Rabbitte, we will look at additional time being made available for that legislation next week.

Deputy Charles Flanagan:    I welcome what the Tánaiste said and would like her to recommend to the Chief Whip that sufficient time be given——

[20]An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy can talk about that later.

Deputy Charles Flanagan:    In regard to points I made earlier this week, which I will repeat on the Order of Business, the Supreme Court will examine this legislation in detail at some future point — perhaps in the not too distant future — and a Supreme Court judge will seek to establish the intention of Deputies when passing the legislation. If they refer to the Official Report and see that amendments were not reached and were guillotined——

An Ceann Comhairle:    We have discussed all that.

Deputy Charles Flanagan:    ——it will bring us all into disrepute

An Ceann Comhairle:    We cannot go any further with it. I must move on to the motion for the by-election for Donegal South-West.

Deputy Charles Flanagan:    I ask that the Ceann Comhairle at least listens to the point being made because——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Of course, I listen to what the Deputy has to say but my problem is that I must obey Standing Orders, the same as everybody else, and implement them.

Deputy Charles Flanagan:    ——as Speaker of this assembly, he has standing.

An Ceann Comhairle:    No.

Deputy Charles Flanagan:    The Ceann Comhairle has standing.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I must implement the Standing Orders because there is nobody else to do so. That is the problem.

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Last Updated: 07/10/2010 13:30:06

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