Order of Business. Wednesday, 10 March 2010

Dáil Eireann Debate Vol. 704 No. 4 Page of 192

The Taoiseach:    It is proposed to take No. 18, Finance Bill 2010 — Report and Final Stages (Resumed); and No. 19, Road Traffic Bill 2009 — Second Stage (Resumed). It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m. The resumed Report and Final Stages of No. 18 shall be taken today and, notwithstanding the proceedings yesterday, shall resume on amendment No. 3 and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. tonight by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in respect of amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance.

Private Members’ business shall be No. 36, Land and Conveyancing Law Reform (Review of Rent in Certain Cases) (Amendment) Bill 2010 — Second Stage (Resumed) — to conclude at 8.30 p.m. tonight, if not previously concluded.

[603]An Ceann Comhairle:    There are two proposals to be put to the House today. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. agreed to?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    Will the Taoiseach indicate if there will be an opportunity for the House to address the scandalous situation vis-à-vis the 57,000 X-rays at Tallaght hospital? When will the Minister for Health and Children present before this Chamber, or a Minister of State in her Department in her absence, and take the opportunity to address this issue substantively in this House? There are many serious questions to be addressed. Contradictory information has been provided in various commentaries regarding this scandalous situation in terms of awareness, knowledge of and action regarding same and that must be addressed in the House. We need to know with certainty that what has been exposed in respect of Tallaght hospital, where a consultant radiologist did not have or did not avail of the opportunity to scrutinise some 57,000 X-rays, does not pertain at other hospital sites throughout the jurisdiction as well. This is a very important matter and I call on the Taoiseach to clarify at this point when the Minister, or a Minister of State on her behalf, will present in the Chamber, preferably today.

The Taoiseach:    It is a matter for the procedures of the House as to how that matter can be taken forward.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    Will the Taoiseach intervene? It is well within his gift, given the importance and seriousness of the matter, to intervene to accommodate an opportunity for it. I do not know when the Minister is due to return to Ireland. I realise she is currently out of the country but that should not prevent the House addressing this matter from an informed and definitely focused basis. Will the Taoiseach ensure at least, in the absence of the Minister, that a Minister of State from her Department would come before the House with the full information and take questions of members of the Opposition?

An Ceann Comhairle:    The questions we have relate to the late sitting and the Finance Bill. It is important to try to deal with those and then we can move on to other matters.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    I have tabled a private notice question. Will the Ceann Comhairle clarify if he would be prepared to accommodate that request?

An Ceann Comhairle:    We will leave that matter rest for the moment.

Deputy James Reilly:    I wish to address the issue raised by Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin. It was clear this morning when the Minister spoke from New Zealand that she is muddled and mixed up. This is a Minister who does not know the difference between meddling and management. She should come home immediately.

An Ceann Comhairle: We are talking about getting the Order of Business for today agreed to.

Deputy James Reilly:    There are approximately 20,000 people around the Tallaght area waiting to know if their X-rays were read properly.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am not in any disagreement on that matter.

Deputy James Reilly:    The Taoiseach needs to address this. He is the leader of the country. This morning, he stated he has absolute confidence in the Minister. He must be one of the few left who does. In my view, this Minister should resign.

[604]An Ceann Comhairle: We must get the Order of Business agreed to.

Deputy James Reilly:    This is one scandal too many. I refer to relevant legislation. Where is the whistleblowers legislation?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am not asking the Deputy for that at this point and I call on him to resume his seat until we deal with the Order of Business.

Deputy James Reilly:    HIQA was called in back in June. Where is HIQA’s report?

An Ceann Comhairle:    Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. agreed to?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    Is the Taoiseach not prepared to give us an indication of an accommodation? Surely he should accept the need for this matter to be addressed.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Is the question agreed to? Agreed.

The Taoiseach:    As I have indicated, this is a matter for the procedure of the House. As I understand it, the Ceann Comhairle is on notice of any private notice questions that may have been submitted. The Report and Final Stages of the Finance Bill are to be completed today. That is a very important matter that must be dealt with as well.

Deputy James Reilly:    Again, money is more important than people.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    Can we not seek an accommodation tomorrow?

The Taoiseach:    I realise Deputy Reilly is not long in this place.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    Will the Taoiseach allow this issue to be addressed?

The Taoiseach:    That is a matter for the Whips to consider for tomorrow’s business.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    Will the Taoiseach encourage the Chief Whip to be positively disposed to such a proposition?

An Ceann Comhairle:    The first question has been agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 18 agreed to?

Deputy Enda Kenny:    The Taoiseach may state continuously that this is a matter to be sorted out by the Whips but the Government orders the business here. Some 65 amendments to the Finance Bill remain; four have been dealt with. These range from issues related to NAMA, to the consolidation of taxes, head shops and a whole range of other issues. The time allocated for today will not allow Members to get into any constructive or detailed discussion about a number of these very important amendments. There is no reason that the Dáil could not sit for a longer period tomorrow to deal with the details of the amendments to the Finance Bill tabled by Deputies. I object to the Bill being guillotined today. It is not good enough.

I take the point made by Deputy Reilly in respect of the catastrophe that has befallen certain people and the concern that exists for those whose X-rays have not been read. They have not been informed about whether they are at a high risk. This is unsatisfactory and I object to it. I will vote against the Order of Business unless the Government Whip indicates to me that extra time will be given to these amendments to the Finance Bill tomorrow.

Deputy Joan Burton:    There is a perfectly agreeable way of addressing this issue. The Finance Bill is probably one of the most important tranches of legislation that comes before the House each year. Attempting to guillotine the Bill is an insult to the work of the House. We could find two hours tomorrow easily without seriously discommoding anyone. As has been done on [605]several occasions in recent times, question time could be pushed back until later in the afternoon tomorrow and we could hold a sufficiency of debate. Several serious matters arise here and we must hold a discussion with the Minister for Finance on what he proposes. Happily, he accepted a Labour Party amendment to the Finance Bill last night in respect of an evaluation of the cost of tax expenditures and tax breaks. That was helpful and it may indicate a new spirit of bipartisanship in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We really cannot get into a Second Stage contribution on the Finance Bill at this point. We are on the Order of Business.

Deputy Joan Burton:    Given that spirit of bipartisanship, it is important to allow sufficient time and respect for the House rather than simply having a guillotine and a jack boot approach to finishing off the legislation in the manner proposed.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    The Sinn Féin Deputies reject absolutely the proposition that a guillotine should be applied to the Finance Bill at any stage, let alone on Report and Final Stages. The situation is that only four amendments from approximately 70 tabled were addressed in yesterday’s discussions in the Chamber. There is inadequate time to address the import of all the amendments tabled. I recognise that this Bill accommodates the removal of the VAT exemption from local authorities that will result in a 13.5% increase in respect of charges covering a whole raft of services at that level.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy is really into a Second Stage contribution on the Finance Bill.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    This is not a Bill that should be passed through on any nod. This requires full address in this Chamber and that is not being accommodated by the Government’s ordering of today’s work.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We require a decision on this matter.

Question put: “That the proposal for dealing with No. 18 be agreed to.”

The Dáil divided: Tá, 77; Níl, 70.

Tá
Ahern, Bertie.	Ahern, Dermot.
Ahern, Michael.	Ahern, Noel.
Andrews, Barry.	Andrews, Chris.
Ardagh, Seán.	Aylward, Bobby.
Blaney, Niall.	Brady, Áine.
Brady, Cyprian.	Brady, Johnny.
Browne, John.	Byrne, Thomas.
Carey, Pat.	Collins, Niall.
Conlon, Margaret.	Connick, Seán.
Coughlan, Mary.	Cowen, Brian.
Cregan, John.	Cuffe, Ciarán.
Curran, John.	Dempsey, Noel.
Devins, Jimmy.	Dooley, Timmy.
Fahey, Frank.	Fitzpatrick, Michael.
Fleming, Seán.	Flynn, Beverley.
Gogarty, Paul.	Gormley, John.
Grealish, Noel.	Hanafin, Mary.
Haughey, Seán.	Healy-Rae, Jackie.
Hoctor, Máire.	Kelleher, Billy.
Kelly, Peter.	Kenneally, Brendan.
Kennedy, Michael.	Killeen, Tony.
Kitt, Michael P.	Kitt, Tom.
Lenihan, Brian.	Lenihan, Conor.
Lowry, Michael.	McDaid, James.
McEllistrim, Thomas.	McGrath, Mattie.
McGrath, Michael.	McGuinness, John.
Mansergh, Martin.	Moloney, John.
Moynihan, Michael.	Mulcahy, Michael.
Nolan, M. J.	Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
O’Brien, Darragh.	O’Connor, Charlie.
O’Donoghue, John.	O’Flynn, Noel.
O’Hanlon, Rory.	O’Keeffe, Batt.
O’Rourke, Mary.	O’Sullivan, Christy.
Power, Peter.	Power, Seán.
Roche, Dick.	Ryan, Eamon.
Sargent, Trevor.	Scanlon, Eamon.
Smith, Brendan.	Treacy, Noel.
Wallace, Mary.	White, Mary Alexandra.
Woods, Michael.

Níl
Allen, Bernard.	Bannon, James.
Barrett, Seán.	Behan, Joe.
Breen, Pat.	Broughan, Thomas P.
Bruton, Richard.	Burke, Ulick.
Burton, Joan.	Byrne, Catherine.
Carey, Joe.	Clune, Deirdre.
Connaughton, Paul.	Coonan, Noel J.
Costello, Joe.	Coveney, Simon.
Crawford, Seymour.	Creed, Michael.
Creighton, Lucinda.	D’Arcy, Michael.
Deasy, John.	Doyle, Andrew.
Durkan, Bernard J.	English, Damien.
Enright, Olwyn.	Ferris, Martin.
Flanagan, Terence.	Gilmore, Eamon.
Hayes, Brian.	Hayes, Tom.
Hogan, Phil.	Howlin, Brendan.
Kehoe, Paul.	Kenny, Enda.
Lynch, Ciarán.	Lynch, Kathleen.
McCormack, Pádraic.	McEntee, Shane.
McGrath, Finian.	McHugh, Joe.
McManus, Liz.	Mitchell, Olivia.
Morgan, Arthur.	Naughten, Denis.
Neville, Dan.	Noonan, Michael.
Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.	Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
O’Donnell, Kieran.	O’Dowd, Fergus.
O’Mahony, John.	O’Shea, Brian.
O’Sullivan, Jan.	O’Sullivan, Maureen.
Penrose, Willie.	Quinn, Ruairí.
Rabbitte, Pat.	Reilly, James.
Ring, Michael.	Sheahan, Tom.
Sheehan, P. J.	Sherlock, Seán.
Shortall, Róisín.	Stagg, Emmet.
Stanton, David.	Timmins, Billy.
Tuffy, Joanna.	Upton, Mary.
Varadkar, Leo.	Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    Will the Taoiseach consider again the statement made by the Ombudsman, Emily O’Reilly, that the lost at sea scheme began as maladministration and ended up as bad governance? The Ombudsman, appointed by the Government, has said it is not tolerable [607]that the objective and independent report she produced will not be allowed to be discussed at the appropriate Oireachtas committee.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Is there promised legislation in this area?

Deputy Enda Kenny:    Deputy Creed has raised this matter on several occasions.

An Ceann Comhairle:    This is the Order of Business.

Deputy Richard Bruton:    It is about the accountability of the Dáil.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    A motion was put before the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to deal with this but was voted down by the Government members.

Deputy Bobby Aylward:    A decision has already been made on this matter.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    In the interests of everyone, including Deputies mentioned in the report, it is right and proper——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Private Members’ business is available to Deputy Kenny if he wishes to initiate a debate on the matter.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    ——that they should have the opportunity to answer questions at the relevant committee. All I want from the Taoiseach is that he has no objection to a committee dealing with this. The other day when answering a parliamentary question, the Minister for Transport said the Government will not give any more time in the Chamber to this report. That was a clear statement from the Minister. I want an equally clear statement from the Taoiseach saying that on account of what the Ombudsman has said officially in public that the appropriate Oireachtas committee, comprising Members from all parties, should be entitled to consider her report on the Lost at Sea scheme. Deputy Fahey, who is present in the Chamber, has been mentioned in the report. He should be entitled to give his say in detail at the committee.

An Ceann Comhairle:    If Deputy Kenny wants a more detailed debate on this matter, he can utilise Private Members’ time to do so.

Deputy Frank Fahey:    I offered Deputy Kenny an opportunity to do so but he did not take it.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    The Ceann Comhairle would like me to raise it through Private Members’ time and then be accused of wasting time. This is a case where the appropriate committee can deal with it.

Deputy Bobby Aylward:    A decision has already been made on this.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I can see no reason why the Government will not allow this to happen. It is clearly a case of where, on the one hand, the Government considered the Ombudsman’s report and, on the other, that one of its Members was mentioned in it. The Government has come down in favour of a Government Deputy.

Deputy Frank Fahey:    I personally offered Deputy Kenny an opportunity to do so but he wanted to make it a political football.

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    Deputy Fahey is trying to hide something.

[608]Deputy Enda Kenny:    Deputy Fahey can go before the committee and make his case. I am sure he is more than eloquent to argue his case.

Deputy Frank Fahey:    We have already debated it here in the Chamber.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Kenny is out of order.

Deputy Frank Fahey:    The Taoiseach recommended it be dealt with in the Dáil but Deputy Kenny refused to take it up.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    There is something to hide.

Deputy James Reilly:    Me thinks the lady doth protest too much.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I want to make this clear.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Kenny, you are contributing to disorder in the House on the Order of Business.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    I have not accused Deputy Fahey of anything. Instead, I am giving him the opportunity to go to the appropriate committee and deal with questions that need to be answered in respect of the Ombudsman’s report. It is not a report from a political party.

Deputies:  Hear, hear.

Deputy Noel Treacy:    Deputy Kenny is paddling around the place.

Deputy Bobby Aylward:    A decision has already been made on this.

Deputy Niall Blaney:    He is shuffling the goalposts.

Deputy Seán Power:    A Cheann Comhairle, this is the Order of Business.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Kenny, it is not promised legislation. We are on the Order of Business and there are other ways to deal with these matters.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    Of what is the Government afraid? If there is nothing to hide, then there is nothing of which to be afraid.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Kenny, there are other ways of dealing with this matter. We have suggested Private Members’ time if you so wish. I call Deputy Gilmore.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    You have suggested Private Members’ time, a Cheann Comhairle. I am asking the Taoiseach a straight question. Will the report be considered by the appropriate committee?

Deputy Paul Connaughton:    No.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call on Deputy Gilmore.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    Will I get a response from the Taoiseach?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am sure we will have a response. There are several other Members offering.

[609]Deputy Enda Kenny:    Is the Ceann Comhairle offering me a guarantee that there will be a response from the Taoiseach?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am not guaranteeing you anything. Deputy Gilmore has indicated he wants a brief word on the same issue.

Deputy Enda Kenny:    A Cheann Comhairle, if you are sure you will have a response, are you guaranteeing me a response?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call on Deputy Gilmore. We have been over this ground several times in recent weeks and there are options in place.

Deputy Noel O’Flynn:    The matter has been decided.

Deputy Michael Creed:    It certainly was for Fianna Fáil.

A Deputy:  We will all be back up on it again in a year’s time.

Deputy James Reilly:    It is a cover-up.

Deputy Bobby Aylward:    They are using it as a political football.

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    There is only one way to sort it out.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    It is unusual for a Department to reject a finding of the Ombudsman. It is also unusual for the Ombudsman to refer the matter to the Oireachtas for it to decide upon. The arrangement made for statements on it did not satisfy that requirement. The Labour Party spokesperson, Deputy Sherlock, has tabled a motion to have the issue referred to the appropriate Dáil committee. That is the only way to deal with this. The longer this matter continues, the more politicised and more partisan it will become.

Deputy Michael Ahern:    They are all very partisan over on that side of the House.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    This week the Ombudsman made a public comment on the matter.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Private Members’ time is an ideal opportunity to raise this matter.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    I do not believe the Ombudsman should be put in the position to have to make public comments on her reports. She referred the matter to the Oireachtas and it should be dealt with here.

Deputy Bobby Aylward:    The Ombudsman accepted it was a matter for the Department in question.

Deputy Joan Burton:    She did not. Deputy Aylward should read the report.

Deputy Michael Creed:    She did not. I suggest Deputy Aylward might read her report.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Creed, please make your remarks through the Chair.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    That is the whole point. The Department rejected the recommendation. There is a precedent for dealing with this matter, as there was a previous occasion where something similar arose and it was dealt with by the appropriate Oireachtas committee.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We must move on as we have spent too much time on it already.

[610]Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    The longer it goes on, the more of a political controversy it will become.

The Taoiseach:    It is being generated as a controversy.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    As I said yesterday, the sooner it is referred to the committee and dealt with on an all-party basis the better. I do not understand why the Government will not agree to have this dealt with by the appropriate committee. That is all we are asking for.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    It is already there.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore:    There is a motion in the House. If the Government accepts it, we do not even have to debate it in the Chamber. It can be referred to the committee and dealt with there.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    We must recognise the Ombudsman is a politically independent officer of the State. We must treat seriously matters she refers to the Dáil and Seanad as she has done in this instance. It is only the second time a report of the Ombudsman’s office has been rejected by a Department. It is very important that we do not find ourselves in the situation she described in her remarks yesterday, with the Dáil having been sidelined and the Opposition failing to hold the Executive to account.

An Ceann Comhairle:    That contribution might be appropriate if we had a motion on Private Members’ time.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    We have a responsibility to hold the Government to account——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy——

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    It is our responsibility——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy, this is the Order of Business and not Private Members’ time.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    ——and obligation and we are pressing that this matter be addressed. I agree with Deputy Gilmore that it is beyond understanding why there is such a concerted resistance to having——

An Ceann Comhairle:    We cannot have a debate on this now.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    ——the matter substantively addressed in a committee of the——

An Ceann Comhairle:    I do not mind brief remarks but not on the Order of Business.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    Why does the Ceann Comhairle keep talking over me?

Deputy Dick Roche:    It is the other way around.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Ó Caoláin is out of order, and that is why.

Deputy Michael Creed:    The Government is out of order. It is trying to muzzle the Ombudsman.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    Surely when I have been called to speak——

[611]Deputy Michael Creed:    The Government is looking after the big boys and trampling on small people.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    The Ceann Comhairle called me to speak and I presumed in that situation I had the right to address the House.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Ó Caoláin has broken into a Second Stage speech on the matter.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    I have done no such thing.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Tuffy.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    I have done no such thing. I am asking the Taoiseach to take this issue seriously immediately. There can be no question but that the Government has blocked address of this issue in this Chamber, in the Seanad and in the committee. It is beyond the understanding of any reasonable opinion and should be addressed immediately. What else will put the matter to bed? What else will address the concerns expressed by the Ombudsman? There can be no other way of dealing with this and I urge the Taoiseach and the Government to accede to the collective request of the Opposition to have this matter addressed as a substantive issue by the committee.

An Ceann Comhairle:    As I have told other Deputies, Private Members’ time is available to deal with this matter.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    No, that is not the way to deal with this. It should be dealt with in Government time and should be dealt with in committee.

Deputy Michael Creed:    On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Tuffy.

Deputy Michael Creed:    The Ceann Comhairle repeatedly requests the Opposition to have the matter dealt with in Private Members’ time. That is not the appropriate way to deal with it because we need a forensic investigation and interviews with various parties, including Deputy Fahey whom the Taoiseach is intent on protecting and around whom he is circling the Government wagons. We are offering Deputy Fahey, the Ombudsman and the complainant an opportunity to come before the committee. That is what true and effective parliamentary democracy is about, not a charade and a whitewash, which is what the Ceann Comhairle is asking the Opposition to participate in.

An Ceann Comhairle:    All these points can be made in other ways.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy:    One of the issues raised by the Ombudsman is the ability of the Oireachtas to hold the Government to account. The Order of Business is exactly where one should discuss whether a report is debated or not.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I do not have the latitude to allow Members to hold people to——

Deputy Joanna Tuffy:    What exactly is the Order of Business?

An Ceann Comhairle:    What is allowed on the Order of Business is quite narrow.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy:    I want to make the point——

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am only implementing Standing Orders.

[612]Deputy Joanna Tuffy:    Can I just finish my sentence? I believe we hold the Government to account in the Oireachtas but we are being put in a straitjacket in terms of what we can raise on the Order of Business. We should be able to raise whether a report should be debated on the Order of Business.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We have mechanisms in the House for all parties to visit this area.

Deputy Seán Sherlock:    On a point of order——

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    On a point of order——

Deputy Seán Sherlock:    With all due respect, I indicated on this issue. There is a motion before the House and all the Labour Party wants is to provide the Ombudsman with an opportunity to present the findings of her report before a designated committee, preferably the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. That is on the Order Paper and we are asking that there be some degree of common sense in terms of how this is approached. We do not want further statements in the Dáil on this matter and, as Deputy Gilmore said, it can be done without debate if we facilitate the person in question. That is all we are asking.

An Ceann Comhairle:    There are ways and means.

Deputy Seán Sherlock:    It is a very reasonable request and it is all we are asking.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    On the point of order, I and other Members have raised repeatedly the question of accountability to the House. The Ceann Comhairle finds himself in a difficult position and I am not being critical of him. The Ceann Comhairle says there are ways and means of dealing with this issue without any change to protocol. It is a fact of life. Does the Opposition have to bring the business of the House to a halt in order to get the Government to accept the principle of accountability to Parliament?

The Taoiseach:    Can I reply? There is a much misrepresentation.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    How often have I raised this matter in the House along with Members on both sides of the House? What advice can the Ceann Comhairle give us?

An Ceann Comhairle:    We will hear An Taoiseach.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    On a point of order, when we are discussing the ordering of Government business, the Ceann Comhairle has got into the habit of giving us helpful advice to kick it to touch into Private Members’ time. That is not what we are talking about.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We have had statements in the House on this matter.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    That is not the issue.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    That is not the business we are dealing with on the Order of Business, which concerns Government time and how it should be allocated. There is a proposal from the Government and we are entitled to raise questions.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We are dealing with issues raised by individual Members.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    The advice of the Ceann Comhairle is to refer it to Private Members’ time and this is not in order.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    Correct.

[613]The Taoiseach:    A number of misrepresentations have been made by the Opposition and I want to clear up the factual situation. The Ombudsman Act is entirely silent on how the Houses of the Oireachtas should deal with a special report laid before each House. The Ombudsman presented a special report to each House of the Oireachtas at which time she invited them to consider the report and “take whatever action they deem appropriate”. It is a matter for the Oireachtas to order its business. The Dáil and Seanad have dealt with the Ombudsman’s report by way of statements on 4 February and 18 February respectively.

Deputy Michael Creed:    What actions have we taken?

Deputy Michael Mulcahy:    Deputy Creed should listen.

The Taoiseach:    I am explaining the situation.

Deputy Michael Creed:    It is a whitewash.

The Taoiseach:    I just heard from Deputy Gilmore about the need to avoid partisanship in respect of this matter. He wanted to have this matter dealt with by the committee to avoid all partisanship. Deputy Creed has been involved in a game of partisanship for months.

Deputy Michael Creed:    That is not true.

The Taoiseach:    Every time I get to speak on this, Deputy Creed keeps interrupting me. I read his statement yesterday. He has a statement on this every day. Again, it is Deputy Creed seeking to introduce a degree of partisanship into this matter.

Deputy Michael Creed:    The Taoiseach’s party voted it down.

The Taoiseach:    What is the story here? Does everyone have a right to keep talking while I am talking even though I listened in silence while they were speaking?

Deputy Billy Timmins:    The Taoiseach should answer the question and deal with the matter rather than attacking people.

The Taoiseach:    If Deputy Creed did not interrupt me, I would have answered by now if Deputy Timmins is interested in an answer but he is not interested in an answer.

There is no prescribed issue in respect of the Ombudsman Act that the House dealt with.

Deputy Michael Creed:    There is precedent.

The Taoiseach:    It is a matter for the Houses of Oireachtas.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Creed, the Taoiseach should be allowed to speak without interruption.

The Taoiseach:    As the Ombudsman accepts, any Department is free in law to decide whether it will accept the recommendation. In many cases they are accepted but there have been occasions on which they had not been accepted. It is out of respect for the Ombudsman’s office that we do not reject every recommendation.

Deputy James Reilly:    Just the ones the Government does not like.

The Taoiseach:    The Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, outlined the Government’s position in respect of this matter in the House. I do not accept some of the suggestions made about [614]this. The Department’s reason for taking that position is on the record of the House. It is entitled in law to take that position.

Deputy Richard Bruton:    Where is the opportunity for the House to take a position on this?

The Taoiseach:    I am sorry Deputy——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Bruton, please.

The Taoiseach:    The Ombudsman Act is silent on how that can be dealt with. We dealt with it by way of statements in the House. It has been dealt with as far as the Government is concerned. The Department is entitled in law to take a position and this is accepted by the Ombudsman.

Deputy Richard Bruton:    The Parliament is entitled to take a position.

Deputy Michael Creed:    I asked the Taoiseach to address the precedent that exists in this House. On the one previous occasion in 25 years when the Ombudsman laid a report before the Houses of the Oireachtas, it was referred to the Oireachtas committee on finance for investigation. That is all the Houses ask, that the matter be investigated by a committee of the House.

Deputy Frank Fahey:    Deputy Creed broke that precedent by bringing the matter into the Dáil.

The Taoiseach:    The recommendations are not legally binding and the Department is entitled in law——

Deputy Michael Creed:    There is precedent.

The Taoiseach:    Members have asked for clarification and I am providing it.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Creed, resume your seat.

The Taoiseach:    The Deputy continues with that——

Deputy Michael Creed:    The Taoiseach is a disgrace.

The Taoiseach:    ——as his predecessor continued with it.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach:    As Deputy Killeen stated in his Dáil statement the scheme once decided upon was properly and fairly administered by the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources.

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    What about the report?

The Taoiseach:    He also pointed out that the Ombudsman has expressly acknowledged that she found no evidence to suggest that the scheme once launched was not applied equitably.

Deputy Bobby Aylward:    Has Deputy Creed nothing to say now?

The Taoiseach:    That is the situation, which does not fit Deputy Creed’s little conspiracy theory with which he will keep on anyway.

[615]Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    Let us have a debate then.

Deputy Michael Creed:    White wash. The Taoiseach is circling the wagons.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Sherlock on a brief question. We have spent too much time on this matter.

Deputy Seán Sherlock:    I note what the Taoiseach has said about the Ombudsman’s Act being silent on the matter. Again, we respectfully ask that the Taoiseach allow the Ombudsman an opportunity to present her findings. I believe that is a reasonable approach. This can be done in a non-partisan way. I am sure this House could facilitate such a process.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan:    The Ombudsman is being muzzled.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Sheehan, please.

The Taoiseach:    The Ombudsman has presented her special report to the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is a matter for the Houses of the Oireachtas how it wishes to deal with it. We have had statements in both Houses on the matter.

Deputy Michael Creed:    Statements are meaningless.

The Taoiseach:    I have explained the situation in terms of what the Department is legally entitled to do, which is accepted by the Ombudsman in any event.

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    What does the Taoiseach have to hide?

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Kehoe, please. We must have one speaker at a time.

The Taoiseach:    The report speaks for itself.

Deputy Michael Creed:    If the Taoiseach thinks this issue is going to go away he has another thing coming.

The Taoiseach:    I have just outlined——

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    What then does the Taoiseach have to hide?

The Taoiseach:    I have nothing to hide. That is the reason the report is being dealt with in this manner.

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    Let it go to committee.

The Taoiseach:    The Deputy probably has not even read the report.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Bobby Aylward:    What is the Deputy’s motivation?

Deputy Paul Kehoe:    The Taoiseach should let it go to committee if he has nothing to hide.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Kehoe, please. We must move on. I call Deputy Phil Hogan.

Deputy Phil Hogan:    The following may not be silent in law. The Dublin Docklands Development Authority Bill is listed on the Order Paper. We have all read in recent times of the massive splurge of expenditure on travel and entertainment. There is precedent in this regard. [616] The Ceann Comhairle’s office has been the subject of precedent in respect of this matter. The director general of FÁS, an agency of the Tánaiste’s Department, has been the subject of adjudication on these matters. When will the Taoiseach bring forth an amendment to the Dublin Docklands Development Authority Act to allow the Comptroller and Auditor General to deal with these matters as per the Bill on the Order Paper?

The Taoiseach:    There is no legislation promised by Government in that respect. Obviously, there are reports to be considered by the Minister and they will be brought forward in due course.

Deputy Phil Hogan:    Does the Taoiseach not regard these matters as serious?

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy has received an answer. There is no promised legislation on the matter.

Deputy Phil Hogan:    The Taoiseach’s Green Party colleagues in government thought the matters relating to the former Ceann Comhairle and Mr. Molloy were serious. Is the Taoiseach suggesting these issues are not serious enough to be discussed or to warrant a change in the legislation?

An Ceann Comhairle:    If the Deputy tables a parliamentary question——

Deputy Phil Hogan:    Perhaps the Government will consider accepting the Fine Gael Bill which seeks to amend the Act to bring forward legislation to allow a proper investigation of these matters.

An Ceann Comhairle:    ——it should get to the core of the matter for him. I call Deputy Broughan.

The Taoiseach:    There has been no comment by me suggesting matters are not serious or otherwise. I am merely making the point that the report should be considered by the Minister taking the advice he is taking and will be published in due course.

Deputy Terence Flanagan:    When will they be published?

Deputy James Reilly:    Will he develop a legal problem too?

The Taoiseach:    That is the situation.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Broughan.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    I have four brief questions for the Taoiseach. I understand the competition Bill includes a section to deal with the situation whereby a company can effectively own a large shareholding in its direct competitor, as is happening in aviation. When will that Bill come before the House?

I understand the globalisation fund extra information for the SRT workers was on the desk of Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, last week. Has that information been sent back to Brussels? There was massive disruption yesterday by the taxi industry. The Taoiseach will be aware the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport——

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy must confine his questions to promised legislation.

[617]Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    I understand the taxi workers want to discuss with the Minister the report of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport on taxis. Perhaps a meeting in this regard could be arranged as soon as possible.

Perhaps the Taoiseach will when in Chicago next week visit Northfields to meet the chief executive of Kraft in respect of workers at Cadburys.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Taoiseach, on promised legislation.

The Taoiseach:    The Tánaiste will meet with the chief executive of Kraft in due course. On the question in respect of the competition Bill, it is proposed to introduce it by the end of this year. The information in relation to SRT has been returned to Brussels.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan:    What is the position with the stabilisation fund?

The Taoiseach:    The information has been sent to Brussels.

Deputy Seymour Crawford:    I wish to raise three issues with the Taoiseach. Members continue to receive from the HSE correspondence and information on health issues that is not up to date or relevant. When will——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Has legislation been promised in this general area?

Deputy Seymour Crawford:    Yes. I will come to it if the Ceann Comhairle’s allows me to at least start my question.

Deputy Bobby Aylward:    The Deputy should start at the beginning.

Deputy Seymour Crawford:    When will the health information Bill, which should legalise and force these people to tell us the truth once and for all, be introduced?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am advised it will be introduced in the middle of the year.

Deputy Seymour Crawford:    When will the landlord and tenants Bill come before the House given the extremely serious situation in particular in Border areas, in respect of rent?

The Taoiseach:    It is not possible at this stage to indicate when that Bill will come before the House.

Deputy Seymour Crawford:    We are continually advised of the great work being done by the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney. We are told that big is great and big is perfect. Members will be aware of the current situation at Tallaght Hospital. When will the eligibility for health and personal social services Bill be brought before the House to allow us an opportunity to discuss the complete utter chaos of our health system?

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am advised no date has yet been fixed for that Bill. I call Deputy Terence Flanagan.

Deputy Terence Flanagan:    The multi-unit developments Bill is long overdue legislation. I accept an update on the matters has been received from the Whips’ office. While the multi-unit developments Bill is complex legislation its introduction has been dragging on now for eight years. Meanwhile there is no redress for the 400,000 apartment owners. These people have nobody to turn to in respect of disputes and problems that arise. Perhaps the Taoiseach will expedite this legislation and provide the House with an update in this regard.

[618]The Taoiseach:    The Bill is currently on Committee Stage in the Seanad.

Deputy Terence Flanagan:    When is it expected to come before the Dáil?

The Taoiseach:    When it is finished in the Seanad.

Deputy Terence Flanagan:    When does the Taoiseach anticipate that will be?

The Taoiseach:    As soon as possible.

Deputy Seán Barrett:    That is not an answer. That is not fair.

Deputy Terence Flanagan:    As Deputy Broughan stated, the Taoiseach——

Deputy Seán Barrett:    Deputy Flanagan is spokesperson on the matter and deserves a proper answer.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Please allow Deputy Flanagan to continue.

The Taoiseach:    I gave the Deputy a proper answer.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Flanagan to continue.

Deputy Seán Barrett:    That is not a proper answer. The Taoiseach knows that it is not on Committee Stage in the Seanad.

The Taoiseach:    It is.

Deputy Seán Barrett:    It is held up because of a dispute.

The Taoiseach:    Committee Stage of the Bill is being taken today in the Seanad.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Flanagan to continue.

Deputy Terence Flanagan:    Deputy Broughan mentioned the Taoiseach will next week be in Chicago where the headquarters of Kraft management is based. Perhaps he will make it his business to ensure the 1,200 jobs at Cadburys in Dublin are retained. The last thing we need in this country is more people joining the dole queues.

The Taoiseach:    There is full-scale engagement with the company on the matter.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy Joe Carey.

Deputy Joe Carey:    Will the Taoiseach confirm to the House if the mid-west task force is working towards producing its final report and, if so, when is it expected the chairman will report on the matter? Also, will the Taoiseach facilitate a debate on the report when concluded?

The Taoiseach:    We will deal with the report when it is brought forward.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call Deputy James Reilly.

Deputy James Reilly:    Given the Taoiseach has stated he has confidence in the Minister for Health and Children, perhaps he will tell us the reason the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, did not inform her in June of the situation at Tallaght Hospital. How is it possible that the word of the CEO that there were only 4,000 cases involved when it transpires [619]that there are 58,000 cases involved, was accepted? This is the worst scandal yet we have had in this country.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I wish to be of assistance to the Deputy on the matter.

Deputy James Reilly:    It is not credible that HIQA did not inform the Minister——

An Ceann Comhairle:    A special notice question on the matter has been tabled——

Deputy James Reilly:    That may be so but——

An Ceann Comhairle:    ——-for this afternoon——

Deputy James Reilly:    ——the Minister needs to come back immediately——

An Ceann Comhairle:    ——and the intention is that it will be allowed.

Deputy James Reilly:    I put it to the Ceann Comhairle that if a whistleblower had not given this story to Mr. Fergal Bowers and he had not broken it, we still would not know about it.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy will have time to debate the matter this afternoon.

Deputy James Reilly:    The reality is that the Minister needs to come back to the House to address this question.

Deputy Brian Lenihan:    The Deputy should send his helicopter.

Deputy James Reilly:    The Taoiseach of this country said he has confidence in the Minister for Health and Children. I say the remainder of the country does not and that she should resign.

Deputy Terence Flanagan:    Hear, hear.

Deputy James Reilly:    This is one scandal too many.

Deputy Terence Flanagan:    Yes, it is one too many.

Deputy James Reilly:    How many people have suffered?

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy must resume his seat.

Deputy James Reilly:    People have died and people have suffered because of Portlaoise, the north-east, Galway and Limerick.

An Ceann Comhairle:    The Deputy must resume his seat. I have advised him we are allowing a special notice question on the matter this afternoon——

Deputy James Reilly:    This is one scandal too many.

An Ceann Comhairle:    ——at which stage he will have an opportunity to make all those points.

Deputy James Reilly:    When will the whistleblowers charter be introduced? When will the legislation promised in the programme for Government, which the Taoiseach and Minister for Health and Children appear to be putting on the long finger, be brought before this House? Will the Taoiseach, Minister and HIQA assure this House that this situation does not pertain in other hospitals around the country?

[620]Deputies:  Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I have advised the Deputy of the position. While I am allowing him a great deal of latitude, he is abusing the Order of Business.

Deputy James Reilly:    I say to the Ceann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle:    I have advised the Deputy that we are allowing a special notice question on the matter this afternoon.

Deputy James Reilly:    ——that thousands of people in this country are being abused by our health service, which is being mismanaged——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy, please resume your seat.

Deputy James Reilly:    ——-by an incompetent, lethargic, detached Minister for Health and Children who should be gone.

Deputies:  Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I ask the Deputy to resume his seat. I call Deputy Jan O’Sullivan.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan:    I was going to raise the following matter when dealing with the relevant legislation but it is appropriate that I raise it now. It is simply not credible that when the Minister was told about this in December by the CEO of Tallaght Hospital, she was not told the extent of it.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I have advised the House that we are allowing a special notice question on the matter this afternoon.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan:    The CEO knew the extent of the problem. He knew that it involved nearly 58,000 patients.

An Ceann Comhairle:    You will have the opportunity to make these points at that stage.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan:    This is much broader than the immediate issue. It is a matter of the Minister’s competence. The Minister handed over complete responsibility for the health service to the HSE, and because of that, she is now hiding behind the fact——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy O’Sullivan, will you resume your seat please?

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan:    The Minister needs to take that responsibility for the health service.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call on Deputy Deirdre Clune.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan:    It is a disgrace.

Deputy Deirdre Clune:    It is reported in the newspapers that the Taoiseach is launching the innovation task force report tomorrow. This report claims that 120,000 jobs can be created. Does the Taoiseach have any plans to bring the report to the House? We can then have a full debate on it and hear the Government’s detailed response to the recommendations of the report.

The Taoiseach:    That is a matter for the Whips.

Deputy Deirdre Clune:    It is a matter for the Taoiseach.

[621]The Taoiseach:    I was going to reply. This report will be launched tomorrow by the task force that wrote it and it will be considered by the Government. It is a matter for the Whips to decide when this or any other report will be debated.

Deputy Michael Ring:    The Taoiseach will be in the arms of President Obama next week. Will he raise the issue of the undocumented Irish? It is very important. Many of our Irish illegals are caught in limbo over there, and I hope the Taoiseach will raise it with the President next week. We were promised legislation on the issue by the US Government.

The Taoiseach:    It is a difficult issue on the domestic agenda, but it will be raised.

Deputy Billy Timmins:    Ireland is a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights, which recognises the right to free movement of people. There is an explicit right in our Constitution to free travel. That explicit right has been denied to people due to the actions of staff at the passport office. Will the Taoiseach get the Minister for Foreign Affairs to do something about it? It is disgraceful that people all over the country are arriving at the office but cannot get their passport. Perhaps the Taoiseach has his own passport in order for next week, but it is unacceptable that people cannot travel abroad. We are a laughing stock abroad and the CPSU is running rings around the Government.

Deputy Michael Ring:    It is pure blackguarding where people have had to travel to and from the passport office. It is outrageous. We do not have a passport office in rural Ireland.

Deputy Billy Timmins:    How long is the Government going to stand by and let this happen?

An Ceann Comhairle:    You have made your point.

The Taoiseach:    I dealt with this in Leaders’ Questions and in parliamentary questions. I will refer the Deputy to the note I already sent on the issue.

Deputy Jack Wall:    I asked the staff of the Oireachtas Library to do some research on local authority loans. They informed me that 43% of such loans across the country were in arrears. When I asked officials at Kildare County Council what could be done about this, they told me that their hands were tied and they could do nothing about it. They said that if the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government gave a ministerial order under section 34 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009, it would allow them to negotiate with people who had loans to ensure that proper facilities were put in place to deal with arrears.

The Minister has approved ministerial orders for other sections of that Bill, but I am asking the Taoiseach——

An Ceann Comhairle:    We really have to do this some other way.

Deputy Jack Wall:    I am going to ask the question. When will the ministerial order for section 34 of the Act take place to allow local authorities deal with people who have taken out local authority loans and who are in arrears?

The Taoiseach:    That is a matter for parliamentary questions, but I will inquire about it.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    On a point of order, we are entitled to ask about secondary legislation on the Order of Business.

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Last Updated: 15/12/2010 13:41:03

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