Wildlife (Amendment) Bill 2010: Committee and Remaining Stages

Tuesday, 29 June 2010

Dáil Éireann Debate
Vol. 713 No. 4

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Question proposed: “That section 1 stand part of the Bill.”

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  The Fine Gael Party is opposing every section of this legislation, including section 1 which sets out the definitions of the two Acts referred to in the Bill. We do not even agree that it should be entitled the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill.

Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  Deputy Hogan is not offering very constructive engagement. However, at least I have managed to unite the Fine Gael Party on this issue, something the Deputy’s party leader could not do.

[801]Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  This is already turning into a facetious debate.

A Deputy:  Mind your language.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  I support section 1. The Bill is correctly entitled the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill because it amends existing legislation to ensure the right of particular domesticated animals to enjoy a stress-free existence. I wholeheartedly support the legislation.

Deputy James Bannon: Information on James Bannon  Zoom on James Bannon  It would be better to look after human beings.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy: Information on Joanna Tuffy  Zoom on Joanna Tuffy  This Bill repeals section 26(1) of the Wildlife Act 1976. When that legislation was discussed in this House in 1975, the then Minister for Lands, Mr. T. J. Fitzpatrick, made the case for that section as being very much about wildlife conservation. It meant the Minister and his Department had control over the hunting of stags and other wildlife covered by the section. Deputy Michael D. Higgins made the point that it is a funny way of going about legislation, removing the Minister’s own right to licence and control a particular activity.

  6 o’clock

Is the Minister opening up loopholes? That is why he introduced the other provisions of the Bill that he must now amend for the hunting of deer generally. The Minister would have been better to have retained his power to licence this activity because he would have had control and could have issued licences according to the provisions introduced when Deputy Higgins was Minister, where he looked after the conservation of the deer, their safety, health and welfare, making sure they were not killed and that dogs did not get too near them, and regulating the type of vehicle they were transported in. The Minister is giving up a power that was introduced to conserve animals.

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  That is completely irrelevant.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy: Information on Joanna Tuffy  Zoom on Joanna Tuffy  It is not irrelevant. I would like to know why the Minister took this approach.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall): Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  Section 1 relates to definitions and only those can be discussed.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy: Information on Joanna Tuffy  Zoom on Joanna Tuffy  The point relates to the Minister’s approach to the Bill generally.

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  Deputy Tuffy is talking about section 2, not section 1. Her remarks are utterly irrelevant anyway.

Question put and declared carried.

Question proposed: “That section 2 stand part of the Bill.”

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  This section allows the Minister to repeal section 26 of the Wildlife Act 1976. The fact we have that Act, and an amendment to it in 2000, is a clear indication that there was some concern about the activities involving animals. Regulations and monitoring were put in place and they have stood the test of time. The Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, and Agriculture, Forestry and Food, and all those who wanted to inspect the activities related to stag hunting, were able to do so under proper supervision.

[802]I cannot see why the Minister wants to amend the section of the principal Act to remove his power to grant a licence authorising the hunting of deer. That is the fundamental issue associated with the legislation and the Minister still has the opportunity to bring forward additional regulations if he feels it appropriate rather than an outright ban on stag hunting. In his zealousness to pursue a narrow agenda, making the Government uncomfortable and giving rise to instability in the Government, the Minister is acting in a completely irresponsible manner by proceeding along this road and implementing legislation that is clearly out of sync with rural Ireland. The vast majority of Government Deputies have to be hounded in here tonight by the Whips to ensure the Government’s survival. That is not the way to build trust between Government partners.

The Minister should introduce additional amendments to allay the fears of his Fianna Fáil partners who spoke against the Bill but then voted for it on Second Stage. There will be another vote at 7 p.m. and they will have another opportunity to say whether they agree with the contents of this and other sections. I ask the Minister to be reasonable to those people who have asked him to be genuine and to look at additional regulations instead of an outright ban on stag hunting.

I look forward to his reply that will reflect the views of his colleagues in Government who have put themselves on the line in their constituencies for the Minister and this legislation which he insisted on putting in the revised programme for Government so he could get approval for fiscal parameters to be pursued in the budgetary process in 2010 and for his support for the ill-conceived NAMA legislation. That, however, is no surprise because the Minister was asleep when the bank guarantee scheme was being agreed.

A sense of priority is required about the Minister’s actions, which have brought about mistrust because of his insistence on narrow legislation being passed this week and next week, legislation that should not be a priority for any Government when we face such serious economic and social difficulties.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy: Information on Joanna Tuffy  Zoom on Joanna Tuffy  Giving up the power to licence an activity is a strange way to go about dealing with that activity. The original Act had the conservation of wildlife as its stated purpose. The Minister’s approach is very divisive, with an all-out ban of an activity that has gone on for 150 years.

The Minister has also failed to address ancillary activities, such as the fallen animals service provided by the Ward Union Hunt. What will happen to the herd of deer that belongs to the Ward Union Hunt? It is an ecosystem in itself; it is a herd and surely the Minister would want to protect it.

This has been a divisive discussion. The Minister does not recognise, because the Green Party is so small perhaps, that there are different views on this issue, with people on either side of the argument and people in the middle. That was always the case, and across the political spectrum that is the reality. That is why the Green Party has turned its guns on the Labour Party, because it was not sure it could bring its Government partners along with it. The Labour Party is a broad church with mixed views on the issue and we have tried to accommodate them. That is how society functions and it is the approach Deputy Michael D. Higgins took when he was Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, speaking to all sides, monitoring and inspecting the hunt, and introducing a strict licensing regime. Progress was made as a result and all sides came on board.

There are no principles involved in this. It is not my principle to ban stag hunting or the Ward Union Hunt; my principles are about free education and similar issues. People were shot [803]in my constituency today and that is where the gardaí should be focusing their attention, not on an issue like this, where there is all sorts of regulation. That is not our priority and it should not be the priority for the Government right now.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Is the word “bullshit” proscribed under Standing Orders?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall): Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  It is not an appropriate word.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  I have learned my lesson since last December.

Deputy Tom Sheahan: Information on Tom Sheahan  Zoom on Tom Sheahan  The Deputy should smoke one of his spliffs.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  I have never heard such wanton balderdash in my life.

Deputy Tom Sheahan: Information on Tom Sheahan  Zoom on Tom Sheahan  He should take one of his chill pills from the head shop.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  To suggest that the Adoption Bill or the Civil Partnership Bill, or any other legislation that is not fiscally-based, cannot be debated in this House is facetious. It is a failed argument used by those who cannot put forward a strong argument based on the legislation itself.

Deputy Hogan said this is narrow legislation and I concur. It is so narrow we should not be spending more than two or three hours on it. Instead, this is the highlight of the year in the Oireachtas. If it was not so funny it would be embarrassing to me and others as parliamentarians when there are bigger issues that we must vote on. In last year’s budget we had to make some tough decisions.

Deputy Tom Sheahan: Information on Tom Sheahan  Zoom on Tom Sheahan  It was the leader of the Green Party who said he would bring down the Government if this Bill was not passed.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  The Government was very nearly brought down last October. Deputy Tuffy mentioned education — I had a leaflet outside schools in my constituency telling them they could rest assured that if education cuts were not reversed and education protected in the budget, we would not be in Government.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  What good did that do?

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  The INTO, the TUI and the ASTI have all welcomed our achievements. We bartered in the programme for Government for concessions, and we bartered on economic and education issues. We also bartered to a small degree on modest animal rights issues.

Deputy Tom Sheahan: Information on Tom Sheahan  Zoom on Tom Sheahan  The Deputy is speaking balderdash.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  People outside the Green Party might not realise that while this might be important to members of the party we know it is not a big issue and we wonder why it is being turned into such a divisive issue. There are much bigger issues to deal with and much bigger fish to fry, if one pardons the pun.

The Labour Party takes donations from trade unions and is beholden to its paymasters just like Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have taken money from developers and are beholden to their paymasters. Perhaps they do not understand that while the Green Party negotiated a programme for Government on issues of principle, we are also pragmatic enough to know that we did not get some things and we have to put up with that. We have taken the flak over the fact that the M3 at Tara was signed off before we entered Government.

[804]Deputy Tom Sheahan: Information on Tom Sheahan  Zoom on Tom Sheahan  The Green Party sorted that.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  This one modest piece of legislation, small as it may be, is getting a large number of Deputies cynically motivated and apoplectic. There are far bigger issues that we should be dealing with.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan: Information on Noel Coonan  Zoom on Noel Coonan  Poolbeg.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  If this Bill is passed tonight, as I believe it will and rightfully so, we can get on with other issues such as the Civil Partnership Bill, which I believe is far more important to be quite honest.

Deputy Tom Sheahan: Information on Tom Sheahan  Zoom on Tom Sheahan  The Deputy would.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  After this is passed tonight, the Ward Union Hunt will continue. It will either release the deer earlier and bring it back to captivity without being stressed by a pack of hounds and then have the scent, the horse riding and the industry or it will learn to drag. It will not collapse the industry because it cannot have the hounds baying at the stag. I would bet money on that. If it wants to cut off its nose to spite its face then it is very stupid. RISE! is very clever because it turned this debate into a rural versus urban divide. As someone with rural blood roaring through my veins it is not a rural versus urban divide. Rural people oppose the wanton cruelty of animals just as urban people do.

In 2007, Deputy Gilmore put pressure on the Minister, Deputy Gormley, to enact legislation but that has changed now, because the pollsters state that perhaps a handful of people might vote for the Labour Party as it is doing well in the polls. That is the difference between a small party and a large party. As a small party, we are not beholden to anyone. We try to work for the people and for our principles.

Deputy Ulick Burke: Information on Ulick Burke  Zoom on Ulick Burke  Mr. 2%.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  We know that sometimes we fail or do things we do not like but we achieve because we believe in something.

Deputy James Bannon: Information on James Bannon  Zoom on James Bannon  Closing down eel farming in Westmeath.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  I am proud to support this amendment and I believe in it wholeheartedly, which is more than I can say for some of the Deputies opposite who do not believe a word they are saying; they are speaking out of both sides of their mouths.

Deputy Martin Ferris: Information on Martin Ferris  Zoom on Martin Ferris  I take issue with some of the comments of the previous speaker that those who are opposed to the Bill condone wanton cruelty. I assure him that is not the case. However, his party has no concept of what rural Ireland is like, its traditions or the value to the local economy of various aspects of rural life, including hunting, coursing, fishing and shooting. They are big part of rural Ireland and a big part of what we are. They are very beneficial to the economy of rural Ireland.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  They are not being affected.

Deputy Martin Ferris: Information on Martin Ferris  Zoom on Martin Ferris  As Deputy Hogan stated, this could have been done by regulation. This Bill is divisive. It is quite obvious that it is divisive within Fianna Fáil but I have no doubt that each Deputy will row in as the whip is applied. They speak out of two sides of their mouths; they tell their constituents that they are against it but they will vote for it here. They [805]did the same on drift net salmon fishing. They spoke on Committee Stage against it but voted for it. As far as I am concerned, they are a bunch of hypocrites.

Deputy Seán Sherlock: Information on Sean Sherlock  Zoom on Sean Sherlock  I seek clarification on the Minister’s amendment No. 1, which states in paragraph (2) that a person who hunts deer with two or more dogs shall be guilty of an offence, but in paragraph (3) states it shall not be an offence for a person on foot to hunt deer with two or more dogs, under and in accordance with section 29 and section 42. To satisfy my thirst for knowledge on the Minister’s line of thinking on this, will he clarify for the House what is in and what is out?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall): Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  We are discussing section 2.

Deputy Seán Sherlock: Information on Sean Sherlock  Zoom on Sean Sherlock  Sections 2 and 3 are related in this sense, begging the Acting Chairman’s indulgence. We want clarification from the Minister on his position on other types of deer hunting. What is on his mind in respect of other types of deer hunting? It is still a little unclear.

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  I will reply to the contributions of the Deputies opposite, beginning with Deputy Phil Hogan who seems to be exercised about the stability of the Government. He is concerned about the trust that exists between the Government parties. I would have thought he would have welcomed destabilisation in government but I can tell him that we have a renewed programme for government, which will go through. As far as I am concerned, as Minister my job is to deliver on the renewed programme for Government and I intend to do that in a timely fashion. The Deputy is correct to state we have a legislative programme in the run up to the summer months, including the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill 2010, the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill 2009, the Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill 2009 and the local government (Dublin mayor and regional authority) Bill. All of these will go through. There is also the climate change Bill.

I do not understand Deputy Tuffy’s line of argument. She stated I would deprive myself of power to regulate but it does not apply because what this does is ensure that this activity will not take place. Deputy Tuffy’s argument does not apply. I would have thought that was absolutely clear. She also spoke about different points of view and democracy. Opinion poll after opinion poll has shown that the majority of people do not want this type of activity to continue. Most people find it distasteful to see an animal in distress, particularly a domesticated animal.

Social issues arise, and Deputy Tuffy’s party is aware of this. Divorce was a very divisive issue but the Labour Party saw fit to push it through. It had my support in the House because I thought it was a necessary measure. I took the view that it was an extremely important issue and set aside party politics. However, the Labour Party does not see fit to do so now because it sees an opportunity. What it is doing this evening is extremely opportunistic and cynical. Individuals in the Labour Party have clearly and unequivocally stated they oppose bloodsports. It was encouraging to see that Deputy Broughan did not turn up for the vote on Second Stage. I know of his personal conviction. We shall see whether he turns up later but I doubt it. I applaud that.

Deputy Tuffy questioned why we are spending time on this. This afternoon, her party and Fine Gael objected to the guillotining of this legislation. As far as we are concerned, this Bill consists of a number of paragraphs and we should not waste valuable Dáil time.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  It is not NAMA.

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  That is a fact.

Deputy Seán Sherlock: Information on Sean Sherlock  Zoom on Sean Sherlock  The Minister’s own Deputy said that.

[806]Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  That is exactly the way we want to approach this. We want to get through the legislation as quickly as possible.

Section 26(1) of the Wildlife Act allows the Minister to grant a licence to the master of a pack of stag hounds, authorising the hunting of deer by that pack. This section is being repealed. The reference to section 35 of the Wildlife (Amendment) Act 2000 relates to the repeal of section 26(1) of the Wildlife Act 1976 which allowed the Minister at the time to grant a licence to the master of a pack of stag hounds authorising the hunting of otters by that pack. Otters are protected by the Wildlife Act and the habitats directive and are considered a priority species. That is simply what this section is doing. It is absolutely crystal clear and there should be no argument about it.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy: Information on Joanna Tuffy  Zoom on Joanna Tuffy  On the Minister’s comments, the Green Party promotes many things——

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Such as jobs.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy: Information on Joanna Tuffy  Zoom on Joanna Tuffy  ——in government that the Labour Party has supported. For example, we agree that third level tuition fees should not be reintroduced. We have strongly supported some the changes it has made regarding planning. We support the Government’s initiatives on civil partnership. The problem with this Bill is that there are different views. For example, studies carried out on the Ward Union Hunt found evidence of physiological recovery within three or four days and full recovery within ten days, and two months post hunt the hunted deer were found to be in good health. If one starts bringing the issue of animal cruelty into the debate one could talk about horse racing or many other activities on which people would have a point of view.

We live in a society where we have to bring people on board, in terms of animal protection. We need to decide on the best way to proceed. I have a difficulty with this Bill. The Minister is getting rid of the power to licence the activity. The Minister feared that he might drive this into hunting and shooting deer under the Firearms Act and that is why he brought in the provision which has concerned deer stalkers. He was trying to close off loopholes. He is now trying to fix the mess that he created by trying to close loopholes and he may well end up opening another loophole.

What the Minister might allow is unregulated hunting and shooting of deer, which is not deer stalking. He is not licensing such activity in the way he is licensing the Ward Union Hunt. The problem is that because the Minister was not prepared to engage and talk to the Ward Union Hunt and Wild Deer Ireland in a genuine way and consult with Coillte, the National Parks and Wildlife Service, different sectors of society and the parties here, he is creating a Bill which may contain loopholes which the Minister will then try to close. There was a provision in section 26(1) of the Wildlife Act 1976 whereby the activity could be controlled by licensing.

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  If the Deputy reads the Bill she will see that we are making provision to issue shooting licences. It is something that has been completely overlooked in this debate. As Minister I have issued many licences for the shooting of deer but this is a different activity.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy: Information on Joanna Tuffy  Zoom on Joanna Tuffy  It is keeping them alive.

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  I do not know what sort of information the Deputy has but one does not need to be a vet or any specialist to see that the animal in question is under severe stress. It is a domesticated animal. The vets to whom I have spoken have clearly stated that the animal is under severe stress——

[807]A Deputy:  It is not in the report.

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  It is and I have spoken to the vets. The Deputy has a vested interest. I accept that.

Question put and declared carried.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall): Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  Amendment Nos. a1, 1 and 1a will be discussed together. Amendments Nos. 2 to 5, inclusive will then be discussed together.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy: Information on Joanna Tuffy  Zoom on Joanna Tuffy  I move amendment No a1:

This amendment provides that permission for culling female deer between 1 May and September will not be granted under section 42. We tabled this amendment because Wild Deer Ireland raised this issue with the Minister. Its concern is that the Minister is currently issuing licences to land owners under section 42 of the Wildlife Act to cull female deer from May to September at a time when female deer give birth to fawns. If a female deer that has fawns is shot the fawns will be orphaned and will suffer a horrible death because they will have no mother to look after them and will starve to death.

If we had stakeholder involvement this could have been the type of issue the Minister could have addressed in terms of the conservation of wildlife and protection of deer. Everybody accepts the need to cull deer and that deer stalking is an acceptable activity but it must be done in a humane way which does not cause suffering. We tabled this amendment because it is appropriate to the issue of the protection of deer and wildlife. Would the Minister consider accepting this amendment or will he deal with the issue in another way?

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  We are dealing with amendments Nos. a1, 1 and 1a together. I stated on Second Stage that I would table an amendment to section 3 to allay the fears of licensed deer stalkers who have a licence from my Department under section 29 that might inadvertently affect their legitimate hunting practices. It is not unusual for a deer stalker to bring a dog while out hunting deer. This is especially the case in woodlands where a dog would be used to retrieve fallen game which can sometimes be concealed in the undergrowth.

In cases where several hunters were stalking deer on a property and each had a dog or if they were bringing two dogs for training purposes it could be construed that they were breaking the law based on the original wording of section 3. It was never my intention that the Bill should place any restriction on lawful deer stalking. Accordingly, the amendment I tabled states that it would not be an offence for people with a deer licence under section 29 of the Wildlife Act who stalk deer on foot or those with permission under section 42 to have two or more dogs.

The normal annual licence is issued under section 29 to deer hunters. More than 4,000 such licences were issued by my Department for the 2009-10 hunting season. The open season for most deer species extends from 1 September to the end of February. However, there is a 12 month hunting season for munchak deer as it is considered an invasive species which can cause much damage if allowed to spread.

[808]Section 42 permission is issued outside the open season and offers a facility whereby a person can obtain permission on a case by case basis to take action against a protected species, including deer, which can include the scaring, capturing or killing of said species in a situation where serious damage is being caused to agricultural crops, forestry plantations or other fauna. It is considered that there may be occasions when it is necessary or useful to bring dogs to assist in moving deer from areas where they are causing serious damage, for example, in young forestry plantations. I am satisfied that this amendment to section 3 will address the fears expressed by licensed deer hunters.

On the amendment tabled by Deputy Tuffy, applications made to my Department for section 42 permission are considered on a case by case basis. I have the powers under the Wildlife Acts to include conditions in the permission which can prohibit culling of female deer during a certain period. I have included such conditions in quite a number of the section 42 permissions issued in recent months. Accordingly I consider that the inclusion of this provision in the Bill is not necessary.

On amendment No. 1a , also tabled by Deputy Tuffy, I have already informed the House of the proposed amendment to this part of the Bill allowing licensed deer stalkers on foot to hunt deer with two or more dogs. As it is sometimes the case that a person granted a section 42 permission may also require the use of two or more dogs I will not accept this amendment.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  Given that the Minister was very sure-footed with his intentions for this Bill, I am surprised he is proposing an amendment. He is such an expert on these issues. Had the issue not been brought to his attention by the Irish Deer Society and his colleague, the Minister for Justice and Law Reform who had a robust exchange of views with him on firearms licences for people who wish to engage in normal activities——

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  That is not true.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  I am only telling the Minister the reality. I am aware he knows everything.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall): Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  Deputy, please.

Deputy Damien English: Information on Damien English  Zoom on Damien English  He thinks he knows everything.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  He did not think about the notion that people might use two or more dogs to search for deer in distress on forested lands.

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  The Deputy referred to a robust exchange of some sort.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  I was speaking about distressed deer.

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  He said something about a robust exchange.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  Yes, I did.

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  What did he mean?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall): Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  Allow Deputy Hogan to continue. The Minister will get another opportunity to contribute.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  Deputy Sargent described this legislation as very important from the point of view of public safety.

[809]Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  True.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  We might as well as put flak jackets on stags so they are identifiable and will not be able to cross roads.

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  Try living in the real world.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Chasing a stag on top of a car.

Deputy Shane McEntee: Information on Shane McEntee  Zoom on Shane McEntee  Deputy Gogarty could not tell a stag from a donkey.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  The Minister has done an about turn on the practical implementation of the legislation. Deer are sometimes in distress and stalkers have to find them to deal with their distress. It is not a big issue but it had to be brought to his attention that the legislation can cause practical difficulties. I welcome that he is granting a substantial number of licences but I know only one instance of the public safety issues that Deputy Sargent raised. This one instance is the reason for blanket legislation.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: Information on Mary Alexandra White  Zoom on Mary Alexandra White  What about the cars?

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  There are many reasons.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  I am aware of only one example of a deer landing on a car and this involved the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Ó Cuív, and a deer which escaped from forested lands while he was driving through County Kerry.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: Information on Mary Alexandra White  Zoom on Mary Alexandra White  The Deputy should check it out.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  He was not being chased by dogs. Perhaps he was being chased by constituents in Kerry South who were unhappy about particular matters but they certainly had nothing to do with deer. The Minister needs a sense of proportion. He is trying to solve what he believes to be a problem with a sledge-hammer. We already have restrictions, monitoring and licensing arrangements. The Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Agriculture, Fisheries and Food continuously monitor these activities but he is not happy.

Deputy Trevor Sargent: Information on Trevor Sargent  Zoom on Trevor Sargent  At taxpayers’ expense.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  I am glad Deputy Sargent raised the issue of taxpayers’ money because we would not prioritise €70,000 to count frogs.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Europe prioritised it. The Deputy is a good European.

Deputy Damien English: Information on Damien English  Zoom on Damien English  A waste of time and money.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall): Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  One speaker, please.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  If the Deputy wants to speak about the waste of money, he should ask the Minister why he is not investigating all the money wasted by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority.

Deputies:  Hear, hear.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  He does not want to look into what Fianna Fáil has been up to for years or how the taxpayers’ money was wasted because he is afraid of what he might find.

[810]Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  Who appointed Lar Bradshaw? You did.

Deputy Trevor Sargent: Information on Trevor Sargent  Zoom on Trevor Sargent  We did more than you ever did.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  Like you, Deputy Sargent, I took responsibility. I applaud you for that at least. You and I share that.

Deputy Trevor Sargent: Information on Trevor Sargent  Zoom on Trevor Sargent  It is a small mercy.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  At the 11th hour, the Minister accepted that he made a mistake in banning the stalking of deer to alleviate their distress. He has a disproportionate belief in the efficacy of this legislation, while ignoring its practical implementation.

Deputy John Gormley: Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  On a point of order, you reprimanded me earlier for not speaking through the Chair. I have noticed since then that Members are speaking directly across the floor. Perhaps we could have some consistency.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall): Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  I must say, Minister you did not learn a whole lot, because you are still doing it. It is six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy: Information on Joanna Tuffy  Zoom on Joanna Tuffy  The Minister indicated that he will consider the Labour Party amendment on culling female deer between May and September in the context of the licensing regime. When the possibility that section 3 may prohibit deer stalking or culling was raised with the Minister and his officials, he stated that was not his intention. I understand that his officials were to revert to the Wild Deer Association of Ireland with an amendment which would address the issue but this meeting never happened. The Wild Deer Association of Ireland is not completely satisfied with the Minister’s amendment. He is prohibiting an activity and then introducing an amendment to make an exception to this prohibition. In effect, he is creating a mess he will have to clean up by means of an amendment.

When I first read section 3 I wondered what it was doing in the Bill given that it has nothing to do with the Ward Union Hunt. The only reason I can see for its inclusion was to prevent a loophole being used after he banned the hunt. He was afraid that people would use the licensing provisions under section 29 to hunt deer on horseback with hounds. In this case, however, they do so without licences and can shoot the deer. He is now trying to row back on the section to allow deer culling. However, will his amendment simply reopen the loophole he is attempting to close? He may be driving this activity in the direction where it will not be licensed or regulated. I do not think anybody, including the Ward Union Hunt, wants that. If he did not intend to prohibit deer stalking or culling, why did he include section 3 in the Bill?

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  I congratulate Deputy Tuffy for tabling a reasonable amendment that attempts to deal with the legislation rather than scaremonger, patronise a smaller party in Government or pretend the Green Party is against everything in rural Ireland.

Deputy Seán Sherlock: Information on Sean Sherlock  Zoom on Sean Sherlock  That is a patronising statement if ever I heard one.

Deputy Damien English: Information on Damien English  Zoom on Damien English  The Green Party is against rural Ireland because it does not have any votes there.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall): Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  Allow Deputy Gogarty to continue.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  This is not an argument between rural and urban Ireland. It is a question of whether animals have the right to enjoy a relatively stress-free life. On that question, Deputy Tuffy suggested that a recovery period of three or four days is, somehow, an [811]excuse to allow a domesticated deer to be taken off a cart and chased around the countryside by baying hounds, thereby causing risk to the public and, as the Irish Council Against Blood Sports reveals in the videos which are available to watch on YouTube, bloodshed in some instances. In this context, a three or four day recovery period is quite patronising to the animal. How many of us have owned dogs? How would Deputy Tuffy like it if I chased her pet beagle around the road or gave it a good kick up the rear end and scared the living bejasus out of it? What if I then told her that her animal would recover in a few days but that I got a great laugh out of it and sure is that not sport? I was hunting the animal and giving vent to my masculine, testosterone fuelled instincts. Normally, I leave this on the GAA pitch. My claim to fame in that respect is that I am probably the only person in Ireland who got into a fistfight with a member of his own team. That is another story.

Deputy Tom Sheahan: Information on Tom Sheahan  Zoom on Tom Sheahan  This is from the man who claims to be 50% homosexual.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  There are ways and means of dealing with aggression in a managed and controlled manner. If people want to have the thrill of the hunt, they can have hounds chase a scent either by releasing the deer or dragging the scent before the hunt.

To return to Deputy Tuffy’s remarks, the Minister clearly indicated that if requests are made on a case by case basis, permission could be granted in the case of a certain breed of deer that needed to be culled throughout the year. It will not be permissible to cull female deer of other species during the season in which fawns would be at risk of being orphaned. The Minister will have the power to oversee this matter and he and, no doubt, his successors will take full cognisance of these responsibilities. While the Deputy’s amendment is a welcome attempt to produce constructive legislation, as the Minister stated, it falls short at the final hurdle.

I will reluctantly address Deputy Hogan’s accusation that the Minister is afraid to deal with the Dublin Docklands Development Authority (Amendment) Bill. As has been stated on countless occasions, it was the Minister who established the investigations into the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. He had the balls to ask the wife of one of his greatest political adversaries, an independent, strong-minded and qualified individual, to deal with this issue without fear or favour. The Minister does not speak from both sides of his mouth.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  Unlike Deputy Gogarty.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  No, unlike Deputy Hogan’s leader, Deputy Kenny. The only Member opposite whose position I respect is Deputy Brian Hayes who, in a recorded comment to the media, confirmed that approaches were made to Sinn Féin by the Fine Gael Party.

Deputy Shane McEntee: Information on Shane McEntee  Zoom on Shane McEntee  The Deputy should stick to the issue.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall): Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  We are discussing the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Deputy Kenny denied such approaches ever took place. One cannot believe anything that comes out of his mouth because he will be a cute hoor and say anything for the sake of populism. Fine Gael Party Deputies are doing the same with this legislation.

Deputy Tom Sheahan: Information on Tom Sheahan  Zoom on Tom Sheahan  Deputy Gogarty is running down the clock.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Deputy Tuffy and a number of Fine Gael Party Deputies stated that Fianna Fáil Party Deputies may have to vote against their beliefs because the programme for Government includes a commitment to introduce this legislation. Green Party Deputies have had to do this on other issues. There are many on the Fine Gael Party benches who are on record as strongly opposing blood sports. Tonight, they will shamefully line up and vote against [812]forward looking legislation. They will be pragmatic, listen to the instructions of their party Whip and vote in a manner they do not like. That is the nature of politics. I would like to have free votes on many issues but unfortunately that is not the case. For some reason, this legislation scares people.

Deputy Shane McEntee: Information on Shane McEntee  Zoom on Shane McEntee  People know the truth. They are educated.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  The truth is that none of the minor Bills promised in the programme for Government is about attacking fishing or hunting.

Deputy Shane McEntee: Information on Shane McEntee  Zoom on Shane McEntee  What about the protests outside Fairyhouse racecourse five years ago?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall): Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  Please allow Deputy Gogarty to continue without interruptions.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  As someone who does not eat meat, this could give vent——

Deputy Tom Sheahan: Information on Tom Sheahan  Zoom on Tom Sheahan  Do we need to hear about the Deputy’s dietary habits?

Deputy Seán Sherlock: Information on Sean Sherlock  Zoom on Sean Sherlock  This is like a counselling session.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  That statement may appear to justify the prejudices of the entire RISE! campaign but contrary to popular belief, not every member of the Green Party is a vegetarian and some of them, including Deputy Mary White, have hunted.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall): Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  I ask the Deputy to confine his remarks to the contents of the Bill.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  As I indicated on Second Stage, my personal beliefs in terms of what I would like the Green Party to do and what is achieved in the programme for Government are two different things. The Green Party will continue to honour the programme for Government until we negotiate a new one, possibly as coalition partners with Fine Gael after the next election. That party would do a much better deal and would find it much easier to negotiate with the Green Party than with the Labour Party.

Deputy Shane McEntee: Information on Shane McEntee  Zoom on Shane McEntee  Not on the Deputy’s life.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Our door is still open despite the double speak and hypocrisy.

Deputy Shane McEntee: Information on Shane McEntee  Zoom on Shane McEntee  How will the Green Party secure seats with 2% of the vote?

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  The Fine Gael Party knows as well as the Green Party does that when it comes to numbers, politics is the art of the possible.

Deputy Seán Sherlock: Information on Sean Sherlock  Zoom on Sean Sherlock  This is surreal.

Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Despite all the comment about the Green Party and the end of rural Ireland, if Fine Gael needs the votes of Green Party Deputies to make Deputy Kenny Taoiseach after the next general election without the double-speak of Deputy Gilmore, it will come to us and we will negotiate.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall): Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  The Deputy must speak to the Bill. He is addressing issues unconnected to this debate.

[813]Deputy Paul Gogarty: Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  I was referring to a wider issue raised by Deputy Hogan when he suggested the Bill was the thin end of a wedge that would go far beyond the narrow confines of the legislation. I can play fantasy politics as much as anyone else.

The Minister tabled amendments in response to genuine concerns. Who will blame a Minister for proposing amendments during Committee and Report Stage debates? This has been always the case and has been done with financial legislation, civil rights Bills and other legislation. There is nothing sinister or incompetent about finding and addressing loopholes in legislation. There is no reason not to support the Bill on the basis of the amendments as they do nothing more than close loopholes.

Deputy Tom Sheahan: Information on Tom Sheahan  Zoom on Tom Sheahan  Will the Minister indicate how many deer are injured and killed in road traffic accidents in Killarney National Park? As Deputy Hogan noted, the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, is fortunate he was not killed some years ago when his car burst into flames after hitting a deer. If a car collides with a deer on a public roadway in Killarney National Park, the Department is not liable to pay compensation. How many deer have been killed in road traffic accidents in recent years?

We heard about the achievements of the programme for Government. A sum of €70,000 has been provided to count frogs, while a further €60,000 has been allocated to study a certain type of bat.

Deputy Gogarty alluded to job creation. If this Bill is passed, hundreds of jobs will be lost. The only jobs the leader of the Green Party has created were junior ministerial positions for his party colleagues.

Deputy Trevor Sargent: Information on Trevor Sargent  Zoom on Trevor Sargent  It would be as well to recognise that we have an international obligation in the area of biodiversity. However, let us deal with that issue when we have an opportunity to do so. The legislation before us has a narrow focus as it deals with a specific activity. It is an anachronism in this day and age that the activity in question continues to take place. In addition to the animal welfare issue that arises, there is an inconsistency in terms of the use of a domesticated animal in this activity. While a stag has some wild tendencies, it is a domesticated animal and we would not tolerate the hunting of any other type of domesticated animal, for instance, a cow or pig. Stag hunting is an anachronism.

  7 o’clock

I accept that the public safety aspect of the Bill, a collision with a stag, is less likely to arise than a head-on collision with another car caused by someone falling asleep at the wheel. However, if a vehicle were to collide with a stag and someone were to be killed, would the Deputies Opposite remain quiet or would they ask which Minister licensed the activity and thereby allowed a tragedy to befall a family? Would they be sanguine about the Minister’s role in allowing this licensing activity to continue and failing to notice previous near misses, including, but not only, the incident in Kildalkey? In December, for example, a deer had to be put down having collided with a vehicle. Fortunately, the incident did not result in a human tragedy.

At the weekend, I was walking along a quiet laneway in Garristown in the company of several people who pointed out the exact location at which a stag emerged from across a ditch onto the laneway in front of them. If the incident had occurred a couple of minutes later in the presence of children——

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  Why not ban everything?

Deputy Trevor Sargent: Information on Trevor Sargent  Zoom on Trevor Sargent  I thank God we have not had——

[814]Deputy Shane McEntee: Information on Shane McEntee  Zoom on Shane McEntee  This is a peevish Bill. The only concession the Green Party could secure from the Taoiseach was a commitment to ban the Ward Union Hunt.

Deputy Trevor Sargent: Information on Trevor Sargent  Zoom on Trevor Sargent  Do we have freedom of speech in the House?

I thought we had come to another sorry state where freedom of speech was being denied. I apologise for the interruption there. There are many incidents that are near misses which never feature in the media. I do not want them to feature in the media because I do not want a fatality as a result of this anachronism in 2010.

Deputy Shane McEntee: Information on Shane McEntee  Zoom on Shane McEntee  The Deputy nearly knocked me down on a bicycle there one day.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  We have listened to many contributions in this House. Seven Fianna Fáil Deputies came into the House to speak against the legislation. Now is the time for them to put up or shut up regarding how they vote.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Information on Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin  Zoom on Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin  Not one of them is in the Chamber as we speak.

Deputy Phil Hogan: Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  We have heard a lot of blame placed on the Green Party regarding the Animal Welfare Bill. We have heard a lot of criticism of the Green Party and to be fair to its Members, they are doing so because the Fianna Fáil Deputies are allowing them to do so.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall): Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  As it has reached 7 o’clock and in accordance with an order of Dáil today, I am required to put the following question:

The Dáil divided by electronic means.

Deputy Paul Kehoe: Information on Paul Kehoe  Zoom on Paul Kehoe  It is sad that the only bit of hunting we will have left is the hunting of Fianna Fáil and the Green Party out of Government. As a teller, under Standing Orders I call for a vote by other than electronic means.

Deputy Dara Calleary: Information on Dara Calleary  Zoom on Dara Calleary  What about hunting Deputy Bruton?

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seamus Kirk  Zoom on Seamus Kirk  As Deputy Paul Kehoe is a Whip, under Standing Orders he is entitled to call a vote through the lobby.

Question again put: “That the amendments set down by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government for Committee Stage and not disposed of are hereby made to the Bill; in respect of each of the sections undisposed of that the section or, as appropriate, the section as amended is hereby agreed to in Committee; the Title is hereby agreed to in Committee; the Bill as amended is accordingly reported to the House; that the Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed.”

Question put: “That the words proposed to be deleted stand.”

[815]The Dáil divided: Tá, 75; Níl, 71.

Information on Bertie Ahern  Zoom on Bertie Ahern  Ahern, Bertie. Information on Dermot Ahern  Zoom on Dermot Ahern  Ahern, Dermot.
Information on Michael Ahern  Zoom on Michael Ahern  Ahern, Michael. Information on Noel Ahern  Zoom on Noel Ahern  Ahern, Noel.
Information on Barry Andrews  Zoom on Barry Andrews  Andrews, Barry. Information on Chris Andrews  Zoom on Chris Andrews  Andrews, Chris.
Information on Bobby Aylward  Zoom on Bobby Aylward  Aylward, Bobby. Information on Niall Blaney  Zoom on Niall Blaney  Blaney, Niall.
Information on Aine Brady  Zoom on Aine Brady  Brady, Áine. Information on Cyprian Brady  Zoom on Cyprian Brady  Brady, Cyprian.
Information on Johnny Brady  Zoom on Johnny Brady  Brady, Johnny. Information on John Browne  Zoom on John Browne  Browne, John.
Information on Thomas Byrne  Zoom on Thomas Byrne  Byrne, Thomas. Information on Dara Calleary  Zoom on Dara Calleary  Calleary, Dara.
Information on Pat Carey  Zoom on Pat Carey  Carey, Pat. Information on Niall Collins  Zoom on Niall Collins  Collins, Niall.
Information on Margaret Conlon  Zoom on Margaret Conlon  Conlon, Margaret. Information on Mary Coughlan  Zoom on Mary Coughlan  Coughlan, Mary.
Information on Brian Cowen  Zoom on Brian Cowen  Cowen, Brian. Information on John Cregan  Zoom on John Cregan  Cregan, John.
Information on Ciaran Cuffe  Zoom on Ciaran Cuffe  Cuffe, Ciarán. Information on John Curran  Zoom on John Curran  Curran, John.
Information on Noel Dempsey  Zoom on Noel Dempsey  Dempsey, Noel. Information on Jimmy Devins  Zoom on Jimmy Devins  Devins, Jimmy.
Information on Tim Dooley  Zoom on Tim Dooley  Dooley, Timmy. Information on Frank Fahey  Zoom on Frank Fahey  Fahey, Frank.
Information on Michael Finneran  Zoom on Michael Finneran  Finneran, Michael. Information on Michael Fitzpatrick  Zoom on Michael Fitzpatrick  Fitzpatrick, Michael.
Information on Seán Fleming  Zoom on Seán Fleming  Fleming, Seán. Information on Beverley Cooper-Flynn  Zoom on Beverley Cooper-Flynn  Flynn, Beverley.
Information on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Zoom on Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Gogarty, Paul. Information on John Gormley  Zoom on John Gormley  Gormley, John.
Information on Noel Grealish  Zoom on Noel Grealish  Grealish, Noel. Information on Mary Harney  Zoom on Mary Harney  Harney, Mary.
Information on Seán Haughey  Zoom on Seán Haughey  Haughey, Seán. Information on Máire Hoctor  Zoom on Máire Hoctor  Hoctor, Máire.
Information on Billy Kelleher  Zoom on Billy Kelleher  Kelleher, Billy. Information on Peter Kelly  Zoom on Peter Kelly  Kelly, Peter.
Information on Brendan Kenneally  Zoom on Brendan Kenneally  Kenneally, Brendan. Information on Michael Kennedy  Zoom on Michael Kennedy  Kennedy, Michael.
Information on Tony Killeen  Zoom on Tony Killeen  Killeen, Tony. Information on Michael Kitt  Zoom on Michael Kitt  Kitt, Michael P.
Information on Tom Kitt  Zoom on Tom Kitt  Kitt, Tom. Information on Conor Lenihan  Zoom on Conor Lenihan  Lenihan, Conor.
Information on James McDaid  Zoom on James McDaid  McDaid, James. Information on Tom McEllistrim  Zoom on Tom McEllistrim  McEllistrim, Thomas.
Information on Finian McGrath  Zoom on Finian McGrath  McGrath, Finian. Information on Michael McGrath  Zoom on Michael McGrath  McGrath, Michael.
Information on John McGuinness  Zoom on John McGuinness  McGuinness, John. Information on Dr Martin Mansergh  Zoom on Dr Martin Mansergh  Mansergh, Martin.
Information on John Moloney  Zoom on John Moloney  Moloney, John. Information on Michael Moynihan  Zoom on Michael Moynihan  Moynihan, Michael.
Information on Michael Mulcahy  Zoom on Michael Mulcahy  Mulcahy, Michael. Information on M. J. Nolan  Zoom on M. J. Nolan  Nolan, M. J.
Information on Éamon Ó Cuív  Zoom on Éamon Ó Cuív  Ó Cuív, Éamon. Information on Seán Ó Fearghaíl  Zoom on Seán Ó Fearghaíl  Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
Information on Darragh O'Brien  Zoom on Darragh O'Brien  O’Brien, Darragh. Information on Charlie O'Connor  Zoom on Charlie O'Connor  O’Connor, Charlie.
Information on Willie O'Dea  Zoom on Willie O'Dea  O’Dea, Willie. Information on Noel O'Flynn  Zoom on Noel O'Flynn  O’Flynn, Noel.
Information on Batt O'Keeffe  Zoom on Batt O'Keeffe  O’Keeffe, Batt. Information on Ned O'Keeffe  Zoom on Ned O'Keeffe  O’Keeffe, Edward.
Information on Mary O'Rourke  Zoom on Mary O'Rourke  O’Rourke, Mary. Information on Christy O'Sullivan  Zoom on Christy O'Sullivan  O’Sullivan, Christy.
Information on Maureen O'Sullivan  Zoom on Maureen O'Sullivan  O’Sullivan, Maureen. Information on Peter Power  Zoom on Peter Power  Power, Peter.
Information on Seán Power  Zoom on Seán Power  Power, Seán. Information on Dick Roche  Zoom on Dick Roche  Roche, Dick.
Information on Eamon Ryan  Zoom on Eamon Ryan  Ryan, Eamon. Information on Trevor Sargent  Zoom on Trevor Sargent  Sargent, Trevor.
Information on Eamon Scanlon  Zoom on Eamon Scanlon  Scanlon, Eamon. Information on Brendan Smith  Zoom on Brendan Smith  Smith, Brendan.
Information on Mary Wallace  Zoom on Mary Wallace  Wallace, Mary. Information on Mary Alexandra White  Zoom on Mary Alexandra White  White, Mary Alexandra.
Information on Michael J. Woods  Zoom on Michael J. Woods  Woods, Michael.  


Níl
Information on James Bannon  Zoom on James Bannon  Bannon, James. Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  Barrett, Seán.
Information on Joe Behan  Zoom on Joe Behan  Behan, Joe. Information on Pat Breen  Zoom on Pat Breen  Breen, Pat.
Information on Richard Bruton  Zoom on Richard Bruton  Bruton, Richard. Information on Ulick Burke  Zoom on Ulick Burke  Burke, Ulick.
Information on Joan Burton  Zoom on Joan Burton  Burton, Joan. Information on Joe Carey  Zoom on Joe Carey  Carey, Joe.
Information on Deirdre Clune  Zoom on Deirdre Clune  Clune, Deirdre. Information on Paul Connaughton  Zoom on Paul Connaughton  Connaughton, Paul.
Information on Noel Coonan  Zoom on Noel Coonan  Coonan, Noel J. Information on Joe Costello  Zoom on Joe Costello  Costello, Joe.
Information on Simon Coveney  Zoom on Simon Coveney  Coveney, Simon. Information on Seymour Crawford  Zoom on Seymour Crawford  Crawford, Seymour.
Information on Michael Creed  Zoom on Michael Creed  Creed, Michael. Information on Lucinda Creighton  Zoom on Lucinda Creighton  Creighton, Lucinda.
Information on Michael D'Arcy  Zoom on Michael D'Arcy  D’Arcy, Michael. Information on Jimmy Deenihan  Zoom on Jimmy Deenihan  Deenihan, Jimmy.
Information on Andrew Doyle  Zoom on Andrew Doyle  Doyle, Andrew. Information on Bernard Durkan  Zoom on Bernard Durkan  Durkan, Bernard J.
Information on Damien English  Zoom on Damien English  English, Damien. Information on Olwyn Enright  Zoom on Olwyn Enright  Enright, Olwyn.
Information on Frank Feighan  Zoom on Frank Feighan  Feighan, Frank. Information on Martin Ferris  Zoom on Martin Ferris  Ferris, Martin.
Information on Charles Flanagan  Zoom on Charles Flanagan  Flanagan, Charles. Information on Terence Flanagan  Zoom on Terence Flanagan  Flanagan, Terence.
Information on Eamon Gilmore  Zoom on Eamon Gilmore  Gilmore, Eamon. Information on Brian Hayes  Zoom on Brian Hayes  Hayes, Brian.
Information on Tom Hayes  Zoom on Tom Hayes  Hayes, Tom. Information on Jackie Healy-Rae  Zoom on Jackie Healy-Rae  Healy-Rae, Jackie.
Information on Philip Hogan  Zoom on Philip Hogan  Hogan, Phil. Information on Brendan Howlin  Zoom on Brendan Howlin  Howlin, Brendan.
Information on Paul Kehoe  Zoom on Paul Kehoe  Kehoe, Paul. Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  Kenny, Enda.
Information on Michael Lowry  Zoom on Michael Lowry  Lowry, Michael. Information on Ciaran Lynch  Zoom on Ciaran Lynch  Lynch, Ciarán.
Information on Kathleen Lynch  Zoom on Kathleen Lynch  Lynch, Kathleen. Information on Pádraic McCormack  Zoom on Pádraic McCormack  McCormack, Pádraic.
Information on Shane McEntee  Zoom on Shane McEntee  McEntee, Shane. Information on Dinny McGinley  Zoom on Dinny McGinley  McGinley, Dinny.
Information on Joe McHugh  Zoom on Joe McHugh  McHugh, Joe. Information on Liz McManus  Zoom on Liz McManus  McManus, Liz.
Information on Denis Naughten  Zoom on Denis Naughten  Naughten, Denis. Information on Dan Neville  Zoom on Dan Neville  Neville, Dan.
Information on Michael Noonan  Zoom on Michael Noonan  Noonan, Michael. Information on Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin  Zoom on Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin  Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
Information on Aengus O Snodaigh  Zoom on Aengus O Snodaigh  Ó Snodaigh, Aengus. Information on Kieran O'Donnell  Zoom on Kieran O'Donnell  O’Donnell, Kieran.
Information on Fergus O'Dowd  Zoom on Fergus O'Dowd  O’Dowd, Fergus. Information on Jim O'Keeffe  Zoom on Jim O'Keeffe  O’Keeffe, Jim.
Information on John O'Mahony  Zoom on John O'Mahony  O’Mahony, John. Information on Brian O'Shea  Zoom on Brian O'Shea  O’Shea, Brian.
Information on Jan O'Sullivan  Zoom on Jan O'Sullivan  O’Sullivan, Jan. Information on Willie Penrose  Zoom on Willie Penrose  Penrose, Willie.
Information on John Perry  Zoom on John Perry  Perry, John. Information on Ruairí Quinn  Zoom on Ruairí Quinn  Quinn, Ruairí.
Information on Pat Rabbitte  Zoom on Pat Rabbitte  Rabbitte, Pat. Information on Dr James Reilly  Zoom on Dr James Reilly  Reilly, James.
Information on Michael Ring  Zoom on Michael Ring  Ring, Michael. Information on Alan Shatter  Zoom on Alan Shatter  Shatter, Alan.
Information on Tom Sheahan  Zoom on Tom Sheahan  Sheahan, Tom. Information on P. J. Sheehan  Zoom on P. J. Sheehan  Sheehan, P. J.
Information on Sean Sherlock  Zoom on Sean Sherlock  Sherlock, Seán. Information on Róisín Shortall  Zoom on Róisín Shortall  Shortall, Róisín.
Information on Emmet Stagg  Zoom on Emmet Stagg  Stagg, Emmet. Information on David Stanton  Zoom on David Stanton  Stanton, David.
Information on Billy Timmins  Zoom on Billy Timmins  Timmins, Billy. Information on Joanna Tuffy  Zoom on Joanna Tuffy  Tuffy, Joanna.
Information on Mary Upton  Zoom on Mary Upton  Upton, Mary. Information on Leo Varadkar  Zoom on Leo Varadkar  Varadkar, Leo.
Information on Jack Wall  Zoom on Jack Wall  Wall, Jack.  

Tellers: Tá, Deputies John Curran and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Amendment declared lost.

Deputy Paul Kehoe: Information on Paul Kehoe  Zoom on Paul Kehoe  On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, I wonder if a vote by other than electronic means cancels the electronic vote.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seamus Kirk  Zoom on Seamus Kirk  Yes.

Deputy Paul Kehoe: Information on Paul Kehoe  Zoom on Paul Kehoe  If it does, that means Deputy Mattie McGrath did not actually vote on the Bill.

Deputy Michael Ring: Information on Michael Ring  Zoom on Michael Ring  That would be nothing new.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seamus Kirk  Zoom on Seamus Kirk  It supersedes it.

Deputy Michael Mulcahy: Information on Michael Mulcahy  Zoom on Michael Mulcahy  That is not a point of order.


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