Leaders’ Questions

Wednesday, 19 October 2011

Dáil Éireann Debate
Vol. 744 No. 2

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Deputy Micheál Martin: Information on Micheál Martin  Zoom on Micheál Martin  I am sure the Taoiseach will agree this is a very difficult and shattering morning for employees in Aviva, given that the company has confirmed that there will be up to 950 job losses. This is a devastating blow to workers, their families, the surrounding communities and the economy in general. It will be felt particularly by those working in Dublin, Cork and Galway.

Last September Aviva confirmed a company review in which job losses of this magnitude were flagged. At the time the Taoiseach stated he was “concerned” about the uncertainty caused by the announcements made at that stage and the comments in the media, which caused great anxiety for those who worked in Aviva. He added that the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, and representatives of the IDA would be in direct contact with the company. Yesterday, the Minister stated he had been briefed by the company last week on some of the issues involved. He also indicated that they had discussed opportunities which the IDA had identified in respect of the company’s long-term plans and that the final details would be discussed with the company’s workforce. I understand that is happening.

There is a big difference, however, between being briefed and engaging with a company. What issues were discussed between the Minister and personnel from Aviva? Were measures taken to address areas of concern in Aviva to prevent the extensive job losses which have now been confirmed? Since the flagging of job losses in September, has the Taoiseach met or been in direct contact with Aviva headquarters to try to avert these extensive job losses or deal with these issues with the company? Specifically, has he met the chief executive officer of Aviva Europe, Mr. Igal Mayer, who I understand is in Dublin this morning?

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  This is an awful day for employees at Aviva. Those of us who have served in this House during the years will have experienced the shock, anxiety and consequences of job losses of any scale. Jobs give people dignity and the opportunity to contribute to the local economy, as well as to maintain their own lifestyle and family life. In that respect, I share the empathy of everybody in the House at the announcement made by Aviva management to workers in the Irish centres. It was in 2009 when Aviva announced its intention to restructure its 12 separate businesses across Europe, excluding the United Kingdom and the Benelux countries. This process has been ongoing since and there has been a series of leaks, rumours and speculation, which has added to the concern and anxiety of the workforce.

[326]I do not have a copy of Aviva’s formal statement. I did not meet the European chief executive, but, as far as I know, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation met local, regional and European managers. When this first became known some time ago, there was an offer to have IDA Ireland stand ready to assist the company with the new outsourced jobs referred to to be based in Ireland but which would deal with issues arising abroad. IDA Ireland can only deal with that element of the company. I understand from reports that the jobs referred to will be based in Ireland. I also understand the details of the announcement made will take effect from March next year for two years. Deputy Martin is aware that Aviva acquired Hibernian, a company of long-standing in Ireland, and many of the workforce were employed by Hibernian in the first instance.

This is a stark reminder of what the Government must do in facing the competitiveness challenge for a range of companies and employment creation in general. The Deputy is also aware that the Clearing House Group of the Irish Financial Services Centre, IFSC, which is chaired by the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach, is constantly considering the question of the further attraction of insurance jobs to Ireland. There has been much success in this regard in the IFSC. What is happening is a major shock for those directly involved and a stark reminder to everybody of the long road we must travel to have our competitiveness at a level at which we can protect jobs across the spectrum and grow the economy to a point where we will enjoy prosperity and create opportunities for all the people.

Like the Deputy, I feel for the employees of Aviva and, in so far as the Government can assist, it will. IDA Ireland has already been instructed by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to work with the company where it can do so, but it remains to be seen what details are being given to the workers about the redundancy packages on offer, etc. I understand the decision will take effect from March next year for two years. We must focus continuously on what we must do as a country to have our competitiveness level right in order that we will be able to withstand such shocks. I empathise with the Deputy on his point about the distress caused for some workers this morning.

Deputy Micheál Martin: Information on Micheál Martin  Zoom on Micheál Martin  I am disappointed the Taoiseach did not engage with the company, given the concerns he articulated in the Dáil last September. Given the scale of the job losses announced, close to 1,000, I do not get a sense from the Taoiseach’s comments that there has been real engagement by the Government with the company either to restructure or otherwise avert some of the job losses announced. What we are hearing from the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, is about making contact and briefings. That is a far cry from actively and proactively engaging to try to change the situation, difficult and all as it may be. The Taoiseach knows the details announced this morning, as does the Minister. This is the national Parliament. The full details should be confirmed in the House because the Taoiseach knows every detail of what is being announced——

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  Will the Deputy ask a question, please?

Deputy Micheál Martin: Information on Micheál Martin  Zoom on Micheál Martin  ——as the Minister has confirmed. In addition, in that context, will the European Stabilisation Fund be applied and activated? Has the Taoiseach received any indication from other companies in the insurance sector about job losses? Has he had direct contact with the leaders of the industry? He mentioned the Clearing House Group. The announcement could signal a serious issue within the insurance sector generally. I hope it does not, nonetheless, it flags an issue. In that context, has the Government dealt with the sector generally to avert future job losses and provide alternatives for the jobs lost?

[327]An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  Before the Taoiseach replies, I have already selected this matter as the subject of a Topical Issue debate later in the day.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  The answer to Deputy Martin’s question is that I do not have all the details of the announcement. I understand management is speaking to the workforce. The Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation has been speaking to the company directly, which is his responsibility.

Deputy Micheál Martin: Information on Micheál Martin  Zoom on Micheál Martin  He knows.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  He has instructed IDA Ireland to work with the company to see what it can do. When I was in the IFSC recently, I talked to a range of facility providers. The Deputy is aware of the extent of employment provided in the IFSC. I have had no other contact with any insurance company about employment.

Deputy Micheál Martin: Information on Micheál Martin  Zoom on Micheál Martin  The Taoiseach should have, given what has happened. That is the point.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  The Deputy should allow me to finish my sentence. He asked me a loaded question as to whether I had been contacted by another insurance company about any other announcement to be made.

Deputy Micheál Martin: Information on Micheál Martin  Zoom on Micheál Martin  No, I did not ask that question.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  Deputy, please.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  If Deputy Martin will allow me to finish, I will inform him that I took the opportunity to visit the IFSC——

Deputy Timmy Dooley: Information on Tim Dooley  Zoom on Tim Dooley  The Taoiseach is spending too much time walking around to talk to people.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  ——to speak to promoters about their views on how we could enhance our position to continue to attract quality jobs to the country and the IFSC, in particular. That is why I say the situation, unfortunately, is a very stark reminder of the scale of the challenge the country faces in becoming competitive, to protect employment and to be able to create new jobs. If we do not deal with that issue as a country, we will continue to make ourselves uncompetitive.

Deputy Micheál Martin: Information on Micheál Martin  Zoom on Micheál Martin  That is why the Taoiseach should meet the industry. That is the point.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  The Deputy seemed to imply in his question that the Taoiseach of the day had control over Aviva.

Deputy Micheál Martin: Information on Micheál Martin  Zoom on Micheál Martin  I did not say that.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  The decision has been made by the company. The intention to restructure Aviva’s 12 businesses across Europe was notified to the Government in 2009. The process has been ongoing since.

In so far as the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, is concerned, he has been in touch about the issue with the managers both in this country and internationally.

Deputy Barry Cowen: Information on Barry Cowen  Zoom on Barry Cowen  The branch office in Rathmines.

[328]The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, will establish quickly whether EGF support can be accessed by Aviva workers. However, we cannot make such an assessment until we see the details of the redundancies involved. Deputy Martin is aware of this arrangement under European regulations. The Minister for Education and Skills will follow this through. The matter is up for further discussion in the Topical Issue debate as approved by the Ceann Comhairle. We are all concerned about the issue, but in dealing with this problem we want to get it right for the future of the country. That means we must make changes to legal services, the way the health system is structured and the cost base for every industry to ensure the competitiveness of the country as a whole.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  Mar a dúirt an Taoiseach, tá a fhios aige go bhfuil oibrithe ag dul ag obair ar maidin chuig Aviva agus fios acu go mbeidh leath dóibh gan post. Is dona an scéal é go bhfuil siad agus a gceardchumann fágtha sa dorchadas faoin bplean atá ag Aviva dóibh ar maidin. Freisin, tá an Taoiseach ag rá go bhfuil seisean gan eolas faoin bplean atá ag Aviva.

Aviva is a profitable company and a big player in the Irish market, with a 20% market share. Its chief executive, Mr. Andrew Moss, claims there is a culture of entitlement in this country and that it must change. He is on a salary of £1.8 million, with the award of at least £1 million in shares and other perks last year. Does the Taoiseach agree that the entitlements of Aviva workers are being set aside to sustain the excesses of elites such as the one to which Mr. Moss belongs? The Taoiseach should have met Aviva representatives. IDA Ireland and other State agencies should have gone through the business plan of the company, particularly given that it gave notice of its review, downsizing and restructuring of the company. Did Department of Finance officials meet representatives of the company and unions to see what could be done to reduce costs and protect as many jobs as possible and, if not, why not?

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  Ní raibh an Teachta anseo inné nuair a bhí a chomhghleacaí do mo cheistiú faoi phoist agus faoin chruth atá ar dhaoine a bhfuil brú orthu imeacht óna dtithe de bharr droch thógáil. Dúirt mé léi gur botún mór é nach raibh tú anseo.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  Chuir mé ceist díreach ar an Taoiseach, ceist shoiléir.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  Níl mise ag seasamh anseo ag déanamh ráitis ar son Aviva. Tá siad ag caint leis na hoibrithe agus muid anseo. Níl na mion ráitis agamsa agus mé ag seasamh anseo. I do not determine the salary scales for the employees of Aviva, but I am concerned about the general situation in terms of our competitiveness as a country. This is the difficult road the Government must travel with the people to ensure the country remains competitive and that we can protect jobs, create new ones and achieve my ambition by 2016 of proving that this is the best small country in the world in which to do business. That is why, despite the opposition of the Deputy, we must change the structure of many things in this country such as legal services, the cost of medical services and so many other areas that require to be changed for the betterment of all the people and the economic competitiveness of the country.

The Deputy is aware that industry statistics show that the figures in respect of general motor and home insurance have dropped by 20% in the past two years. That is due to the fact that there are fewer houses, cars and businesses. The figures in respect of life assurance and pensions have dropped by more than 30%. Since 2009 Aviva has been indicating it intends to restructure its 12 businesses across Europe, excluding the United Kingdom and the Benelux countries. That means there is serious concern in this country about the workforce. In so far as the Government is concerned, the facilities and assistance of IDA Ireland will be available. The checking as to whether the European assistance fund can be made available will be carried out rapidly by the Department of Education and Skills. We want to move to a point where we can [329]continue to focus on reducing our cost base, increasing our competitiveness and proving our attractiveness for continued locational investment in this country.

In response to Deputy Martin I said I had met IFSC representatives. The Clearing House Group which works under the auspices of the Department of the Taoiseach will continue to emphasise the essential items we must provide and the actions we must take to ensure the country will continue to be seen as competitive. I do not speak for the Aviva board, but I am concerned about the announcement which will affect so many workers. I understand that from next March for the following two years the outsourced jobs will be based in this country and that IDA Ireland stands ready on the Minister’s instructions to assist the company in so far as it can.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  Expressions of serious concern are not good enough. Caithfidh an Taoiseach na poist seo a chosaint. Eisean an Taoiseach agus sin an jab atá aige. He noticed — he said it himself — this was coming since 2009. As he did not answer my question I have to presume the Minister for Finance did not get officials to meet with the company and the unions to see what cost reductions could be brought about.

The Taoiseach lectures me about my opposition. We are for investment in jobs. This Government is not investing any money in jobs. We will not cut our way out of this recession. We will not cut our way out of the difficulties we are in by bringing in the type of budget which he is heralding. We need to invest in job creation and defend citizens. The main focus and responsibility of a Government is to defend the citizens. The workers in Aviva have been treated disgracefully and it is a mark of extreme arrogance that a man who earns £1.8 million plus——

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  Has the Deputy a question?

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  ——can say there is a culture of entitlement here. When the Taoiseach speaks about making the country more competitive he is saying in a different way what Mr. Moss has said. It is not good enough.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  It is not good enough for the Deputy to equate Mr. Moss’s words with my views on this. He represents the Aviva company. I lead the Government and we have a job to do to make our country competitive.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  Represent the workers.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  The Deputy stands for jobs, or so he says.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon: Information on Ciaran Cannon  Zoom on Ciaran Cannon  He stands for communism.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  There are 300 people from the Priory Hall apartments, built by an acquaintance of the Deputy, who are staying in a hotel at present.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Information on Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin  Zoom on Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin  No way.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  Yes.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  On a point of order——

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  He blatantly flouted——

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  That is a defamation.

[330]The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  ——the planning regulations——

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  That is a defamation and should be withdrawn.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  Please resume your seat.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  ——to build a firetrap.

Deputy Dinny McGinley: Information on Dinny McGinley  Zoom on Dinny McGinley  Do a Pontius Pilate on it.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  The Taoiseach needs to withdraw that remark.

Deputy Micheál Martin: Information on Micheál Martin  Zoom on Micheál Martin  We are speaking about 1,000 job losses.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  Ceann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  Please resume your seat.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  Where were the job losses then?

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  Níl an Taoiseach ag tabhairt freagraí do na ceisteanna, tá sé ag tabhairt bolscaireachta.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  I might finish my point.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  No.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  Can we stick to the subject, please?

Deputy Shane McEntee: Information on Shane McEntee  Zoom on Shane McEntee  The truth hurts.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  Three hundred people are staying in a hotel because they were moved out of a firetrap by court order.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Information on Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin  Zoom on Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin  We want that matter to be addressed.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  I thank Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  Can I have the opportunity to refute what the Taoiseach has said? I am sure the workers of Aviva are delighted with his response.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  Please resume your seat.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  I advise the leader of the Sinn Féin Party that Deputy Ó Caoláin was always accurate in his views about what should be done. I thank him for that comment. He will not stand by people living in a firetrap with that anxiety and concern.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  Nor do we.

Deputy Micheál Martin: Information on Micheál Martin  Zoom on Micheál Martin  We are supposed to be speaking about Aviva.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Information on Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin  Zoom on Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin  That man should face the full rigours of the law.

[331]The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  I remind the leader of Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin’s party that the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation has responsibility for jobs. He has been speaking with Aviva management.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  You are the Taoiseach and you are a disgrace.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  Thank you.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  You were asked serious questions and you came out with this nonsense.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  We are over time.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  I will say to the Deputy——

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  Tell the workers of Aviva what you have just told this Dáil.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  Deputy Adams said we are not interested in jobs. That is why the Government renegotiated the minimum wage with the troika.

Deputy Paul Kehoe: Information on Paul Kehoe  Zoom on Paul Kehoe  He does not want to hear that.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  That is why the Government is putting €3 billion in a bad bank.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  It is why the Government introduced its jobs initiative. It is why the Government reduced the VAT rate across the hospitality sector, with implications for Louth and every other constituency. It is why the Government reduced the rate of PRSI for employers to make it easier to hold on to employees and take on new ones. For the first time ever, we are faced——

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  This is a Government that is prepared to give €700 million to unsecured bondholders.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  ——as a Government, even within those constraints——

Deputy Dara Calleary: Information on Dara Calleary  Zoom on Dara Calleary  Where is the levy on the insurance industry?

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  Could we have order please?

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  We are focusing on jobs, job creation and competitiveness.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Information on Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin  Zoom on Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin  Nonsense.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  It is the Deputy who continuously refuses to recognise reality by coming here with his fantasy economic programmes which would wave a wand and sort these things out.

Deputies:  Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  I call Deputy Higgins.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  Point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  What is the Deputy’s point of order?

[332]Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  The Taoiseach made an entirely untruthful remark to the Dáil and he should be asked to withdraw it.

Deputy Paul Kehoe: Information on Paul Kehoe  Zoom on Paul Kehoe  Deputy Adams is new to the Republic and he has a lot of catching up to do.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  What entirely untruthful remark did he make?

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  The untruthful remark that associates of ours — I am not going to repeat the calumny.

Deputy James Reilly: Information on Dr James Reilly  Zoom on Dr James Reilly  He cannot take it.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Deputy Brian Stanley: Information on Brian Stanley  Zoom on Brian Stanley  It was an untrue allegation.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  In respect of comments in this House, political charges can be made across the floor.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: Information on Pádraig MacLochlainn  Zoom on Pádraig MacLochlainn  It was not a political charge.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  I cannot stop political charges from being made.

Deputy Dessie Ellis: Information on Dessie Ellis  Zoom on Dessie Ellis  It was a scurrilous remark.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: Information on Pádraig MacLochlainn  Zoom on Pádraig MacLochlainn  The Taoiseach made a personal accusation against Deputy Adams.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  I ask the Deputies to allow me to speak. Deputies are bringing outsiders’ business into this House. These people cannot defend themselves.

Deputy Brian Stanley: Information on Brian Stanley  Zoom on Brian Stanley  The Taoiseach——

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  Sorry Deputy, would you stay quiet for a moment? I ask people to remember that when we speak in this Chamber, we are speaking about people who are not here to defend themselves. All sorts of charges are being made. Political charge within this Chamber is permissible.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  That was not a political charge.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  The Deputy will be given an opportunity at some stage, when he is in order, to answer that charge. That is political debate. I call Deputy Higgins.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  I need to be advised on what I can do about this.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  Sorry Deputy, please resume your seat.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  The Ceann Comhairle told me he did not hear what the Taoiseach said.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  At the next available opportunity I will allow the Deputy to respond, once he is within order.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  I want the Ceann Comhairle to make a ruling.

[333]An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  He cannot do it on Leaders’ Question.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  I am asking him to make a ruling.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  I made a ruling that a political charge was made and that is the end of it.

Deputy Gerry Adams: Information on Gerry Adams  Zoom on Gerry Adams  He told me he did not hear what was said.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  That is the end of it.

A Deputy:  Absolutely disgraceful.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  I blush to think Aviva workers might be looking to us with hope that we might rescue their jobs. On a different issue, is the Taoiseach ashamed to stand in the Dáil the morning after his Minister for Finance crushed the hopes of 300,000 mortgage holders? These mortgage holders, the majority of whom are ordinary people with partners and families, are swamped by negative equity and monthly mortgage payments that devour the bulk of their incomes. The Minister merely regurgitated the Keane report, a banker’s charter written by bankers.

  11 o’clock

The Government’s attitude to the victims of ruthless blackmail by property speculators and bankers has been insulting and begrudging. It constantly implies that an army of borrowers are waiting to cheat on their mortgages in order to excuse its inaction. Simply by an accident of birth dates, an entire generation is in mortgage bondage to the banks but the Government does not want to know. The Taoiseach knows about the man who fell among thieves while travelling from Jerusalem to Jericho and was left dazed and badly beaten by the side of the road. The first passersby to come along were a priest and a Levite, who diverted their gaze and no doubt murmured to themselves that he must have done something to deserve it. That is the Government’s response to the victims of the bankers and the developers.

Deputy James Reilly: Information on Dr James Reilly  Zoom on Dr James Reilly  The sermon on the mount.

Deputy Emmet Stagg: Information on Emmet Stagg  Zoom on Emmet Stagg  The training has not gone astray.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  Allow the Deputy to make his point. He is entitled to make his statement.

Deputy Emmet Stagg: Information on Emmet Stagg  Zoom on Emmet Stagg  I thought he was asking a question rather than giving a sermon.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  I ask Deputy Higgins to proceed with his question.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  The Keane report wants us to be scandalised that writing down rip-off mortgages would amount to €14 billion but the Taoiseach does not even blush when he proposes to gouge the Irish people for at least €47 billion in interest and principal between now and 2031 to compensate the private gamblers in Anglo Irish Bank alone. Negative equity and extortionate monthly payments are a millstone around the necks of not only these 300,000 mortgage holders and their families but also the entire Irish economy, by diverting billions of euro from services and shops that could sustain and create jobs.

Will the Taoiseach take a leap of imagination and policy, for a change, by marking down the rip-off speculative mortgages that people were blackmailed into taking? If the mortgages were marked down to their real value, and the monthly payments were marked down pro rata, a generation would be freed from this nightmare and the burden that is on them. The immense [334]resources that would be freed in such circumstances would regenerate the real economy and sustain and create jobs and services.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  I note from the Deputy’s biblical remarks that he has not entirely forgotten about the seminary. I think it was Saul who was on the road to Damascus when he saw the light.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett: Information on Richard Boyd Barrett  Zoom on Richard Boyd Barrett  The Taoiseach has not seen it.

Deputy Barry Cowen: Information on Barry Cowen  Zoom on Barry Cowen  He is looking for Damascus.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  Deputy Higgins has asked me to take a leap of imagination. I have no difficulty in taking the odd leap of imagination, but I have no intention of taking a leap of madness as he suggests. This is not a matter to be treated lightly. The Keane report identifies 50,000 people who are in serious difficulties with their mortgages. I understand that 70,000 people have made arrangements with their banks for a structure and a framework to deal with their problems. The Deputy is aware that 45,000 householders are now in arrears of more than 90 days. The Keane report proposed ten measures to set out how some people in mortgage difficulties could be dealt with. Some of the proposals included trade-down mortgages, split mortgages and mortgages-to-rent. That is why we are having a two-day debate in the House this week. In fairness, that is why the Government did not object to the Bill proposed by Deputy Michael McGrath in respect of this matter. If it is necessary to talk about it next week, we will do so. The point is that the Minister for Finance wishes to draw down the thread of every constructive proposition that is coming from any Deputy in this House, with a view to arriving at a conclusion that can help people who are in difficulties with their mortgages. I see reports in today’s newspapers about discussions between the troika and the banks.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett: Information on Richard Boyd Barrett  Zoom on Richard Boyd Barrett  Surely the Taoiseach means “our banks”.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  I am not aware of the outcome or the detail of those discussions.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: Information on Tim Dooley  Zoom on Tim Dooley  The flow of information to the Taoiseach is not very good if he has to read about such discussions in the newspapers.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  Every Deputy has met people who are stressed and have mortgage concerns. Some of the people in question have been left bereft as a result of a death or an accident that took place without arrangements being made for such an eventuality. Other people are in difficulty with their businesses and are really strapped because of the conditions they entered into. We want to try to help people who are having serious problems with their mortgages. I do not have €14 billion to write off all the mortgages that are in difficulty. We are trying to consider the best of all the propositions and produce a set of decisions that will help the maximum number of people. I hope Deputy Higgins will make a good contribution to that process.

I will respond to the Deputy’s comments about the European situation. Obviously, the negotiations that were conducted by Ireland and its European colleagues have resulted in serious savings for the Irish taxpayer arising from the interest rate reductions. The Deputy is aware that we are pursuing the possibility, as outlined by the Minister for Finance, of being able to do something about the promissory note that was signed off on. The Deputy will appreciate that the €3 billion which has been committed every year for ten years would help the Government to focus on job initiatives, enterprise and employment. Clearly, there is scope for serious savings to be made by the Irish taxpayer in that area. We will pursue it at every possibility.

[335]Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  According to the Taoiseach, it is a leap of madness to say that hundreds of thousands of our people should be bailed out from blackmail mortgages that were gouged from them by speculators and developers with the consent of the regulator and the Government.

Deputy Shane McEntee: Information on Shane McEntee  Zoom on Shane McEntee  With their own consent.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  When I was in here for ten years, the current Taoiseach was silent on the madness that was going on in the property market.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Information on Bernard Durkan  Zoom on Bernard Durkan  That is not true.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  He never opposed the blackmail our people were being forced into, as it was happening before his eyes.

Deputy Paul Kehoe: Information on Paul Kehoe  Zoom on Paul Kehoe  The Deputy should check the record.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  Apparently, it is a leap of madness that these people should be free from their debt and the economy should be freed up. Rather than paying the bulk of their incomes to the banks, these people should be free to spend their money on services in a way that would create tens of thousands of desperately needed new jobs. The Taoiseach thinks that is a leap of madness, but he does not think it is a leap of madness to give €80 billion or €90 billion to bankers and bond holders whose private debts for private profit we have no responsibility for. The Taoiseach needs to get real. He said he is intent on listening to different ideas. Why did the mortgage arrears working group not bring in home owners and mortgage holders who are in distress?

Deputy Shane Ross: Information on Shane Peter Nathaniel Ross  Zoom on Shane Peter Nathaniel Ross  Hear, hear.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  Why were they not included on the committee?

Deputy John Halligan: Information on John Halligan  Zoom on John Halligan  Yes.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  Why did it not hear from New Beginning, which has a radical approach to this issue?

Deputy John Halligan: Information on John Halligan  Zoom on John Halligan  Why did it not speak to MABS?

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  Why did it not bring in representatives of the Money Advice and Budgeting Service so that when the report came out, it was informed by the real world rather than by the agenda of bankers?

Deputy John Halligan: Information on John Halligan  Zoom on John Halligan  Exactly.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  The Taoiseach spoke about Saul on the road to Damascus.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  Can we have a question, please?

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  I wish someone would knock this Government off its horse so it could get an insight into what would really free our people from the horrible purgatory of debt.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  We should not have speeches at this point. A question, please.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  In the process, it would help to regenerate and remake our economy.

[336]Deputy Simon Harris: Information on Simon Harris  Zoom on Simon Harris  That is neither a question nor a solution.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  It is time to change course.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  What is the Deputy’s question?

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  Austerity is a disaster.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  We should not have speeches.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  I am not sure if Deputy Higgins understands the reality of this country’s loss of economic sovereignty. Does he understand who pays gardaí, nurses, teachers and public servants?

Deputy Colm Keaveney: Information on Colm Keaveney  Zoom on Colm Keaveney  And the ULA.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  Does he know who fills the ATM machines? If he does not want to recognise what that actually means, he has really taken a leap beyond madness into complete unreality.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  The taxes that pay for those things will be down as long as have a depressed economy.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  For the first time in the history of this State, our economic sovereignty is not under our direct control. If we want to make major or minor changes, in most cases we have to renegotiate a memorandum of understanding that was signed off some time ago.

Deputy Micheál Martin: Information on Micheál Martin  Zoom on Micheál Martin  The Government signed two memorandums in April and July of this year.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  Deputy Higgins has completely misinterpreted the attitude of the Government.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte: Information on Pat Rabbitte  Zoom on Pat Rabbitte  We are talking about the November memorandum.

Deputy Micheál Martin: Information on Micheál Martin  Zoom on Micheál Martin  I remind the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, that his colleague, the Minister for Finance, has confirmed that privatisation will take place.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  When we commissioned the Keane report, we always said it would not be a repository of all wisdom. It is a reflection on the issues by good people and has produced ten serious proposals. We could have formed all kinds of committees that would have run for months. That would not have helped the people who are under pressure.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Information on Bernard Durkan  Zoom on Bernard Durkan  We are taking action.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  We need a swift response to a situation that is a crisis, every minute of every day, for those who are locked into it. Every Deputy, including Deputy Higgins and I, has met such people. Their concerns are palpable.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  They are not heard in the report.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  We know about all the things they have had to cut out, take away and reduce. The strain is evident on their faces. The Minister, Deputy Burton, has met many of these people. The Minister of State, Deputy Penrose, will meet representatives of New Beginning. They were in these premises yesterday to express their views and outline their propositions.

[337]Deputy John Halligan: Information on John Halligan  Zoom on John Halligan  The Government should have met them before it issued this report.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  I am genuine when I say that if anyone here has an initiative or a proposition that is not currently on offer, is not in the Keane report or does not relate to New Beginning, we would like to hear it in the next two days. The Minister for Finance and the Government will respond, within whatever capability we have, by helping as many people as we can. As I said at the outset, it is important to distinguish one fundamental principle. I do not want the roof to be taken from over anybody’s head. I do not want to see that happen. It is also important to distinguish between those who can pay and those who will not pay.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  For heaven’s sake, that is outrageous.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  We also have to deal with the introduction of legislation dealing with personal insolvency.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  Where is the army of those who are choosing not to pay?

Deputy James Reilly: Information on Dr James Reilly  Zoom on Dr James Reilly  Stop flapping around.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  We also have to introduce complex legislation here dealing with the question of personal insolvency.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  It is the undeserving poor all over again.

Deputy Ray Butler: Information on Ray Butler  Zoom on Ray Butler  The Deputy is putting on a show for the media.

The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  The Minister for Justice and Equality hopes to bring that through the House as quickly as possible.

Deputy Joe Higgins: Information on Joe Higgins  Zoom on Joe Higgins  It is like the Tories.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  I want to make one thing quite clear. Each question dealt with under Leaders’ Questions should last seven minutes — two minutes for the person asking the question, three minutes for a reply from the Taoiseach, one minute for a supplementary question and one minute for a reply to that. I will stick rigidly to it. Members are beginning to abuse this by shouting and roaring. I am going to put a stop to it.

Deputies:  Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  I ask those who are in a position to do so to ask their questions and to reply while being conscious of the time. We are now nearly 40 minutes at this, and the situation cannot continue. I put Members on notice that, as and from tomorrow, that is the way it is going to be. Is that understood?

Deputy Micheál Martin: Information on Micheál Martin  Zoom on Micheál Martin  The Taoiseach keeps going on and on.

Deputy Barry Cowen: Information on Barry Cowen  Zoom on Barry Cowen  He should stop waffling.

Deputy Timmy Dooley: Information on Tim Dooley  Zoom on Tim Dooley  And shorten his replies.

An Ceann Comhairle: Information on Seán Barrett  Zoom on Seán Barrett  I ask the leaders of groups to tell the people behind them to stay quiet while questions are being asked, and I ask the Taoiseach to ask his people to stay quiet so he can answer the questions. Is that understood?

[338]The Taoiseach: Information on Enda Kenny  Zoom on Enda Kenny  I thank the Ceann Comhairle for his ruling and instruction. I will be happy to abide by his recommendations.


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