Order of Business Wednesday, 30 November 2011

Dáil Éireann Debate Vol. 748 No. 3 Unrevised Page of 203

The Taoiseach:    It is proposed to take No. a20, statements on pre-European Council meeting of 8-9 December; No. a1, Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2011 [Seanad] — Second Stage; No. 11b, Health Insurance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2011 — Financial Resolution; and No. 5, Health Insurance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2011 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. tonight and shall adjourn not later than 10.30 p.m.; the proceedings in regard to No. a20 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 65 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: the statements shall be made by the Taoiseach and by the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order and who may share their time and shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case, and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; the Second Stage of No. a1 shall be taken today and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7.30 p.m.; No. 11b shall be decided without debate; and Private Members’ business shall be No. 40, motion re social welfare rates (resumed) and shall be taken on the conclusion of No. a1 or at 7.30 p.m., whichever is the later, and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 90 minutes tonight.

An Ceann Comhairle:    There are five proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. tonight agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. a20 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. a1 agreed to?

Deputy Micheál Martin:    It is not agreed. I want to put on record my total opposition to the guillotine of the very substantial and important Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2011.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys:    Why did the Deputy not introduce it himself?

Deputy Micheál Martin:    I am opposing the guillotine of the Bill. We had many commitments about transparency and about the facilitation of debate in this regard.

Deputy Michael McCarthy:    The Deputy’s party had 14 years to deal with this.

A Deputy:  It is nothing but filibustering.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Excuse me, will Deputy Martin resume his seat for a moment? When a Deputy is making his point, will Members please allow him to do so? We live in a democracy. Deputy Martin may resume his point.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    Yesterday, we raised a similar issue in regard to the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Amendment) Bill 2011 but only one amendment from Deputy Sean Fleming was taken because of the guillotining of Committee and Report Stages after only half an hour, although 21 amendments were tabled.

Deputy Brendan Howlin:    Five amendments were taken in a group.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    Some 73 amendments are proposed to the Water Services (Amendment) Bill. Although we are talking about Second Stage, this gives some illustration of the range of issues that need to be articulated on Second Stage. There is a lot of interest across the House in this Bill and a lot of concern across the country, particularly in terms of septic tank charges. All of those issues need to be teased out and adequately debated in this House, which is the function of the House in regard to legislation. The time that has been allocated is not acceptable and not adequate. I ask the Taoiseach to reconsider this guillotine with a view to facilitating more time on Second Stage of the Bill.

Deputy Gerry Adams:    This is the use of the guillotine again today. Last evening, Sinn Féin had over a dozen amendments on the judges’ pay issue and not one of them was taken. The Taoiseach talks about reforming the Dáil, openness and the role the Opposition can play. We went and did the work. Our Teachtaí Dála brought forward thoughtful amendments and, while the Taoiseach might not have agreed with them, they were not even taken. We asked yesterday that time be given for that debate. The same thing is being done today. This is rushed legislation, which history shows is often bad legislation.

The Water Services (Amendment) Bill is controversial. People throughout rural Ireland are concerned that charges will be slapped on them. Many Deputies have thoughtfully put together amendments to this legislation but the Government is not going to allow that, which is ridiculous. I ask the Taoiseach to reconsider the guillotine. It may have worked last night in getting the Government’s will imposed upon the Dáil but it did not allow our party and other parties to put forward amendments. That affects citizens’ rights. The same thing will happen this evening if the Government proceeds with this guillotine.

The Taoiseach:    I am anxious that the Deputies would be facilitated in getting down to the detail of what is involved here. The Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2011 was published on 3 November. The Bill is required by the troika memorandum of understanding because it has to address a ruling against this country given by the European Court of Justice to introduce a system for registration and inspection of septic tanks. That is the purpose of the Bill.

Deputy Timmy Dooley:    Where does this impact on the bottom line with the troika?

The Taoiseach:    The details of this have been outlined already in that a €50 registration charge will apply and, following the initial registration, householders will not be required to re-register for an interval of five years. The Bill is going to committee next week. Deputies from the Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin parties, as well as other Deputies, will have the opportunity to put down whatever amendments Deputy Adams or Deputy Martin think are appropriate, and have them discussed and debated. The Bill is required by the memorandum of understanding which was signed off on some time ago. It must be implemented before the end of the year. For that reason, we want to end Second Stage and let Members all get into the tank on Committee Stage and put forward whatever views they want.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    That is not satisfactory.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I am putting the question. The question is that the proposal for dealing with No. a1 be agreed to.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    Will the committee meet in this Chamber? Will that debate be in the Chamber?

Deputy Timmy Dooley:    Will they get more time than the German Parliament?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    They had 11 years and they did nothing. This is about time.

Question put: “That the proposal for dealing with No. a1 be agreed to.”

The Dáil divided: Tá, 94; Níl, 41.

Tá
Bannon, James.	Barry, Tom.
Broughan, Thomas P.	Bruton, Richard.
Burton, Joan.	Buttimer, Jerry.
Byrne, Eric.	Cannon, Ciarán.
Carey, Joe.	Coffey, Paudie.
Collins, Áine.	Conaghan, Michael.
Conlan, Seán.	Connaughton, Paul J.
Conway, Ciara.	Coonan, Noel.
Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.	Costello, Joe.
Coveney, Simon.	Creed, Michael.
Creighton, Lucinda.	Daly, Jim.
Deasy, John.	Deering, Pat.
Doherty, Regina.	Dowds, Robert.
Durkan, Bernard J.	English, Damien.
Farrell, Alan.	Feighan, Frank.
Fitzgerald, Frances.	Fitzpatrick, Peter.
Flanagan, Terence.	Gilmore, Eamon.
Griffin, Brendan.	Hannigan, Dominic.
Harrington, Noel.	Harris, Simon.
Hayes, Brian.	Hayes, Tom.
Heydon, Martin.	Hogan, Phil.
Howlin, Brendan.	Humphreys, Heather.
Humphreys, Kevin.	Keating, Derek.
Keaveney, Colm.	Kehoe, Paul.
Kelly, Alan.	Kenny, Enda.
Kenny, Seán.	Kyne, Seán.
Lawlor, Anthony.	Lynch, Ciarán.
Lynch, Kathleen.	Lyons, John.
Maloney, Eamonn.	Mathews, Peter.
McCarthy, Michael.	McFadden, Nicky.
McHugh, Joe.	McLoughlin, Tony.
McNamara, Michael.	Mitchell, Olivia.
Mitchell O’Connor, Mary.	Mulherin, Michelle.
Murphy, Dara.	Murphy, Eoghan.
Nash, Gerald.	Naughten, Denis.
Neville, Dan.	Nolan, Derek.
Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.	O’Donnell, Kieran.
O’Donovan, Patrick.	O’Mahony, John.
O’Reilly, Joe.	Phelan, Ann.
Phelan, John Paul.	Quinn, Ruairí.
Rabbitte, Pat.	Reilly, James.
Ring, Michael.	Ryan, Brendan.
Sherlock, Sean.	Shortall, Róisín.
Spring, Arthur.	Stagg, Emmet.
Stanton, David.	Tuffy, Joanna.
Twomey, Liam.	Wall, Jack.
Walsh, Brian.	White, Alex.

Níl
Adams, Gerry.	Browne, John.
Calleary, Dara.	Collins, Joan.
Collins, Niall.	Colreavy, Michael.
Cowen, Barry.	Daly, Clare.
Doherty, Pearse.	Donnelly, Stephen S.
Dooley, Timmy.	Ellis, Dessie.
Ferris, Martin.	Fleming, Tom.
Grealish, Noel.	Halligan, John.
Healy, Seamus.	Healy-Rae, Michael.
Kelleher, Billy.	Kirk, Seamus.
Kitt, Michael P.	Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
McConalogue, Charlie.	McDonald, Mary Lou.
McGrath, Finian.	McGrath, Mattie.
McLellan, Sandra.	Martin, Micheál.
Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.	Ó Cuív, Éamon.
Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.	Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
O’Brien, Jonathan.	O’Dea, Willie.
O’Sullivan, Maureen.	Pringle, Thomas.
Ross, Shane.	Stanley, Brian.
Tóibín, Peadar.	Troy, Robert.
Wallace, Mick.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Is the proposal for dealing with No. 11b without debate agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members’ business agreed to? Agreed.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    The European directive on agency workers is due to come into law next Monday. This is a directive that has profound consequences——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Could we have some order please? A Member is speaking.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. The European directive on agency workers is due to come into law next Monday via domestic legislation that must be passed by this House. It is legislation that has the most profound consequences for multinational investment in this country. The world is watching in terms of the way we intend to transpose this directive into law. I find it incredible, with the focus on jobs, that there are no proposals from the Government. I have no indication from the Government as to when the House will take this legislation. Is it proposed that we will sit Saturday and Sunday to have the law in place by Monday? I have had numerous representations to the effect that this measure will cost thousands of jobs across the economy. I ask the Taoiseach to indicate to the House when the legislation will be brought forward to allow us give effect to this by Monday. Will he clarify the sanctions that will ensue if the directive is not put in place by Monday?

The Taoiseach:    I understand that an extension is being sought in respect of this date. The Dáil will sit on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday for other business. There is an awareness of the requirement in respect of the directive that there be agreement on it among the trade unions. There is an issue about the derogation period. I along with the Tánaiste met with representatives of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and we discussed coming to an agreement that would allow the directive to be transposed. I cannot give the Deputy the up to date position as of this time but I will ask the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Employment to do so as of this morning.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    The Taoiseach might ask the Minister to talk to the Opposition spokespersons on industry and appraise them of the position, which is critical.

The Taoiseach:    Yes, I will do that.

Deputy Gerry Adams:    I share those concerns on this issue, not least because these workers are the most vulnerable and the lowest paid. I encourage the Taoiseach to share that information with us and let us know how this will proceed.

On another issue, when will the Industrial Relations (Amendment) Bill to deal with the issue of joint labour committees be published?

The Taoiseach:    That will be in this session. It is being worked on.

An Ceann Comhairle:    We have six minutes left and five Deputies are offering. I ask them to stick to the point they are making.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    Do not forget me, a Cheann Comhairle.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae:    With regard to the Child Care Act 1991 and the Child Care (Amendment) Act 2007, is there any promised or proposed legislation on the protection of children? When a domestic violence case comes before a judge there is no provision in place whereby the children in the family can express their opinions to the judge.

With regard to the Construction Contracts Bill, which is very important to ensuring that sub-contractors get paid, we have situations where contracts——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Please, Deputy. Other Deputies are offering.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae:    People are not being paid for work they are doing for contractors. Sub-contractors are going broke because of non-payment and the State is paying the——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Sorry, Deputy. There are other Deputies offering.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae:    Sub-contractors are not being paid.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Is legislation promised in this area?

The Taoiseach:    As the Deputy is aware, the children’s Bill went through the House in July. He raises a specific issue about children’s rights in respect of giving evidence.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae:    Yes.

The Taoiseach:    There is a facility in the legislation that I am sure can accommodate that but I will have the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs respond to the Deputy. The Minister of State, Deputy Hayes, will be taking the Bill in respect of the sub-contractors in the House.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    Given that both the Minister for Health and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform have criticised the decision of the Health Service Executive to withhold valid expenses due to those who are giving home care services, and particularly to older people in rural areas, how is it that the HSE can do that despite the objection of two Ministers?

An Ceann Comhairle:    Sorry, that is a matter for the Topical Issue debate. It is out of order.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    It is in this context. The Minister for Health has said repeatedly that he proposes to abolish the HSE as we have known it and that he will be taking full responsibility for the health services. When will we see the legislation that will give effect to the Minister’s stated intent, and will he intervene and ensure that the HSE does not proceed with its proposal to withhold valid expenses due to workers——

An Ceann Comhairle:    That is a separate issue, Deputy.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin:    ——carrying out essential services for older people and others in rural Ireland?

The Taoiseach:    It is appalling that these workers have not been paid. The problem is that it is a cash-based system, which is outdated. It should move to an accrual-based system. The Minister is working on the proposals for that but it will not be this year.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly:    Last week, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul used the word “crisis” with respect to what it is dealing with. It said it used that word for the first time in its history. In a time when there is very little money available it must be asked what can be done? The calculation is that last year charities paid——

An Ceann Comhairle:    A question on promised legislation please, Deputy.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly:    Last year charities paid €38 million in VAT. Recognising that, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, said he was setting up a working group.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Put the question please, Deputy. There are other Deputies offering. We are running out of time.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly:    Further to the working group the Minister, Deputy Noonan, said he would set up a group to examine this issue, when will legislation be introduced to address the issue where charities can be exempt from paying VAT?

An Ceann Comhairle:    Is there promised legislation?

The Taoiseach:    I do not have a date for that. I will have the Minister’s office contact the Deputy on the position about work in progress.

Deputy Mattie McGrath:    Is there any legislation promised or envisaged on the review of rates throughout the country? I put down a parliamentary question——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Is there promised legislation?

Deputy Mattie McGrath:    ——and I was told that only three counties have been reviewed in the past six years.

An Ceann Comhairle:    There are other Deputies offering.

Deputy Mattie McGrath:    Is a review promised or will businesses be closed down from lack of action by this Government?

The Taoiseach:    There is no review promised. As the Deputy is aware, under the local government Acts the local authorities are entitled to make a decision to reduce rates, as Dublin City Council and a number of other local authorities throughout the country have done in recent years——

Deputy Mattie McGrath:    I am referring to the Valuation Office.

The Taoiseach:    ——in making appropriate adjustments.

Deputy James Bannon:    Will the Taoiseach expedite the criminal justice (victims rights) Bill to balance the scales of justice in the interest of deciding who are the law breakers and also protecting the rights of victims? I am aware that victims of crime——

An Ceann Comhairle:    When is the legislation due?

Deputy James Bannon:    ——are being intimidated throughout the country even as we speak.

The Taoiseach:    A date has not been fixed yet for the legislation which Deputy Bannon rightly raises.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:    On promised legislation, what is the progress to date in advancing the criminal justice (money laundering) Bill? Have the heads of the Bill been discussed and, if so, to what extent? Similarly, what is the position on the land and conveyancing law reform (amendment) Bill, which is of a similar nature and urgently required?

The Taoiseach:    Approval was given to draft the heads of the money laundering Bill in June of this year. Yesterday, the Cabinet gave the Minister approval to proceed and prepare the heads of the land conveyancing Bill.

Deputy Willie O’Dea:    When, realistically, do we expect to see the insolvency Bill as the problem of mortgage arrears is growing on a daily basis?

The Taoiseach:    Go mo leithscéal, a Theachta.

Deputy Willie O’Dea:    The insolvency Bill.

The Taoiseach:    That is what I was referring to. Approval was given by the Government yesterday for the Minister to proceed with drafting the heads of the personal insolvency Bill. This Bill is necessary and has implications that are both technical and complex in respect of bankruptcy and mortgages.

Deputy Willie O’Dea:    When is it likely to be published?

The Taoiseach:    I hope to have it in the first quarter of next year. It is technically very complex but it is an important Bill. It is urgent, but it is important to get it right.

Deputy Dan Neville:    I would like to ask the Taoiseach about promised legislation. Extreme concern has been expressed by those involved in the mental health area about untrained and unqualified counsellors and psychotherapists who are operating and causing extreme stress to vulnerable people.

An Ceann Comhairle:    What legislation are we talking about?

Deputy Dan Neville:    When will the Health and Social Care Professionals (Amendment) Bill 2010, promised by the Government and published by Fine Gael in opposition, be introduced?

The Taoiseach:    I think that Bill will be introduced early next year. It is pretty advanced at this stage.

Deputy Ciara Conway:    The Criminal Justice (Female Genital Mutilation) Bill 2011 was passed some time ago in the Seanad with cross-party support. When will it reach Committee Stage in the Dáil? It is an important Bill for women’s health and I would like to see it expedited as quickly as possible.

The Taoiseach:    It is a question of making time for it to be taken here. A Whip will advise the Deputy as soon as there is time to take it.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív:    The Taoiseach said earlier that an element of the memorandum of understanding in the EU-IMF deal requires the Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2011 to be passed by 1 January. We have done a quick perusal of the memorandum, but obviously we did not——

An Ceann Comhairle:    We are not debating this.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív:    Could the Taoiseach arrange for his office to send to my office the relevant reference in the memorandum that requires that Bill to be enacted by 1 January 2012?

The Taoiseach:    This arises from a European Court of Justice ruling against Ireland for a registration and management system in respect of septic tanks. That issue has to be dealt with immediately.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív:    I am sorry, but that——

An Ceann Comhairle:    We are overtime.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív:    The Taoiseach mentioned the troika and 1 January.

An Ceann Comhairle:    You got your answer. I call on Deputy Ó Snodaigh.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív:    My understanding is that the memorandum states it is to be done by 2014.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Please resume your seat.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív:    Therefore, I cannot understand why we are guillotining the debate here——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Would you resume your seat?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív:    ——and not being given a reasonable opportunity to tease out——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Deputy Ó Cuív, please resume your seat or you will have to leave the House.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív:    ——the issues that need to be sorted out.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Do you want to leave the House? Deputy Ó Cuív, I am on my feet.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív:    We need to know where it says——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Please ignore him Taoiseach. Deputy Ó Cuív, you will not be called again if you treat the Chair with disrespect.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív:    I fully respect the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle:    When I stand up, you sit down. Do you understand that? The same applies to whoever is in the Chair.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle:    It is about time you respected other people. I call on Deputy Ó Snodaigh. Do you want to leave the House?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív:    When the troika makes demands on a very serious issue, I think we are entitled to an explanation on the record.

An Ceann Comhairle:    You will leave the House very quickly if you try that again. I call on Deputy Ó Snodaigh.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh:    Legislation is promised to deal with upward-only rent reviews in the commercial sector. Is it intended to publish it during this session? What is the delay with it?

The Taoiseach:    The Minister sought some legal advice on this and he will make a statement when he has come to a view on it. Hopefully that will not be too far away.

An Ceann Comhairle:    That completes the Order of Business. We will now move on to statements on the pre-European meeting on 8 and 9 December.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    Did the Taoiseach just say that he blamed the troika for everything?

The Taoiseach:    I will come back to Deputy Ó Cuív.

An Ceann Comhairle:    No, you will not. This is completely out of order.

The Taoiseach:    I mentioned 1 January, but I never mentioned the troika.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    He did.

An Ceann Comhairle:    I call on the Taoiseach to make a statement under Standing Order 43.

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Last Updated: 03/05/2012 16:00:26

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