Order of Business Wednesday, 14 December 2011

Dáil Éireann Debate Vol. 750 No. 1 Page of 244

The Taoiseach:    It is proposed to take No. a11, motion re membership of committee; No. b11, Local Government (Household Charge) Bill 2011 [Seanad] — Financial Resolution; No. 20, statements on European Council, Brussels; No. 1, Local Government (Household Charge) Bill 2011 [Seanad] — Second Stage (resumed) and Subsequent Stages; and No. 6, Bretton Woods Agreements (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2011 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

  11 o’clock

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. and shall adjourn not later than 10 p.m.; Nos. a11 and b11 shall be decided without debate; the proceedings on No. 20 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after one hour and 45 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: the statements shall be made by the Taoiseach and by the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order and who may share time, and shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case, a Minister or Minister of State shall take questions for a period not exceeding 40 minutes, and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; the following arrangements shall apply to No. 1: the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 5.50 p.m.; the proceedings on the Committee and Remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in regard to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government; and Private Members’ business [13]which shall be No. 43, motion re policies affecting rural areas (resumed) shall be taken at 7p.m., and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 90 minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle:    There are five proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. a11 and b11 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 20 agreed?

Deputy Micheál Martin:    No, but I hope we can resolve this quickly. Yesterday, the Taoiseach stated he was prepared to give this debate any time that was required. I welcome the additional time for questions but I would like to request two changes to the taking of No. 20. We would like the time for opening statements extended to at least 20 minutes because the issues are complex and comprehensive and 20 minutes might give Members a more reasonable timeframe. The proposal states a Minister or Minister of State shall take questions. At yesterday morning’s meeting with party leaders and again in the Dáil later, the Taoiseach indicated that he would take the questions and I propose that the order should be amended to reflect this. This is what was agreed and an additional ten or 20 minutes could be provided after 10 p.m.

Deputy Joe Higgins:    I am amazed that the proposal refers to a Minister or Minister of State when the Taoiseach clearly gave the impression that he would be prepared to come in here to answer questions for 40 minutes. Perhaps that is the case. Perhaps I am wrong that it should have stated “Taoiseach” as the Taoiseach is a Minister of the Government in any case. It is absolutely incumbent on him that he comes in here to explain the import of what was agreed last week in Brussels. Nobody knows the extent or implications for our people of the institutionalisation of austerity or whether the Government proposes that the people be given a say by referendum on this. We need the Taoiseach here to answer those questions urgently this day.

Deputy Gerry Adams:    It is essential that the Taoiseach takes the questions.

Deputy Timmy Dooley:    The Taoiseach can tell us what he put on the table.

The Taoiseach:    There are very few takers for my offer to come back next week to continue the debate if they wish.

Deputy Timmy Dooley:    There are not too many takers behind the Taoiseach either.

The Taoiseach:    I do not have any problem.

Deputy Timmy Dooley:    Once bitten, twice shy.

The Taoiseach:    I will be around anyway. If Deputy Higgins wants to come back Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday next week, just say so because I am serious about this. I have no difficulty with Deputy Martin’s suggestion of an additional five minutes for spokespersons. We can push that into the sos period. Deputy Higgins is precisely accurate in that I will be in attendance and I expect the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to be in attendance as well——

Deputy Colm Keaveney:    Much to Deputy Higgins’s disappointment. Happy Christmas.

The Taoiseach:    ——to give Deputies the full Monty as it were.

Deputy Timmy Dooley:    Will it be picture and no sound? Is the Taoiseach confirming that he will answer the questions or will he leave it to a Minister of State?

[14]The Taoiseach:    As Deputy Higgins will be aware, a political agreement was reached last Friday, in regard to which a great deal of work has to be done to flesh that out into a text that will be presented to the different parliaments around the EU.

Deputy Billy Kelleher:    We want to know what was in that case besides the sandwiches.

The Taoiseach:    I noticed that Deputy Martin said we should have a referendum anyway and that he would not have agreed to the agreement last week, which would have resulted in Ireland being the only eurozone country walking away from Europe and undoing 40 years of bridge building with our European colleagues.

Deputy Timmy Dooley:    That is daft. Come on.

The Taoiseach:    Think of the implications of that for the IFSC and places down there.

Deputy Timmy Dooley:    Can the Taoiseach confirm that he will answer questions?

Deputy Micheál Martin:    Given the season of goodwill, a Cheann Comhairle, I want to——

An Ceann Comhairle:    We cannot have a debate.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    I just want to respond to——

An Ceann Comhairle:    No, you cannot say anything because I have to say something.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    I just want to welcome the Taoiseach’s response. Given the season of goodwill, when I went through the corridors this morning, there were many worried brows meeting me and saying to me “Whatever you do, don’t go to next week.” Whereas the Taoiseach and I might like to come back next week, we would be on our own.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte:    They know what happened to the last week’s break. They did not expect that.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Thank you, Minister.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte:    I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Is the revised proposal for dealing with No. 20 agreed to? Agreed.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    The Taoiseach is answering questions. That is what is important.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Yes.

Deputy Gerry Adams:    He is taking questions.

Deputy Billy Kelleher:    Will we be allowed to ask him questions?

An Ceann Comhairle:    Is the proposal for dealing with No. 1, Second and Subsequent Stages of the Local Government (Household Charge) Bill 2011, agreed to?

Deputy Joe Higgins:    Which Bill?

An Ceann Comhairle:    People beside you are interrupting so you cannot hear what I am saying. Would you ask them to stay quiet?

Deputy Joe Higgins:    You could project your voice a little more.

[15]An Ceann Comhairle:    No, it is not my voice. I will read it again for the Deputy and I will even look at the Deputy when I read it. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 1, Second and Subsequent Stages of the Local Government (Household Charge) Bill 2011, agreed to?

Deputy Gerry Adams:    It is not agreed. I want to oppose this proposal as it involves the Government again using the guillotine to rush through legislation which targets the most vulnerable of our citizens. Last week it was the Social Welfare Bill, this week it is the Local Government (Household Charge) Bill. By imposing this flat rate tax on everyone, the Government——

Deputy Robert Dowds:    Deputy Adams’s councillors are happy to have £1,500 in the North.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Settle down there, Deputy Dowds. Do not be upsetting yourself for a moment. Deputy Adams should continue.

Deputy Gerry Adams:    The Government is again abandoning its pre-election promises to protect the most vulnerable and families on low incomes. There needs to be time to debate this legislation and to give Government Deputies time not to heckle but to explain their position.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    I agree with that position. The guillotining of Bills has been a pattern.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte:    The Deputy should get his own programme out of this. It is comedy.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle:    There must have been an awful lot of Christmas parties last night.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    The only comedy is that I take seriously the commitments Deputy Rabbitte made. I take seriously the intense emotion of his outbursts in the last Dáil against the guillotining of Bills. I take seriously——

Deputy Pat Rabbitte:    He did not take it very seriously then.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    ——his general articulation of the need for debate and so on.

Deputy James Reilly:    Another Pauline conversion on the road to Damascus.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    I am just making the point that there has been an extraordinary pattern of guillotining Bill after Bill in this House, and a lot of optics going on in-between. The once-a-month Fridays, for example, are a bit of a joke in terms of the Government’s contribution.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte:    Because they cannot hold up their end — that is the only reason. The lads are gone home.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    What we are getting here is optics in terms of the substance of Dáil reform. The Government should facilitate a proper debate on this in the schedule.

A Deputy:  They cannot because their heads are in the sand.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte:    Deputy Martin knows what happened to St. Ruth at the Battle of Aughrim. He put his head up and got it shot.

[16]Deputy Micheál Martin:    You have got too comfortable, Pat.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett:    It is bad enough that the Taoiseach wants to impose yet another regressive charge on low and middle income families in this country on top of all the other charges, the rising prices and the austerity measures——

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    The upper class like the Deputy are okay.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett:    ——which are absolutely crucifying people. It is disgraceful that on this Bill, the Social Welfare Bill and almost any Bill that really matters to the daily life of ordinary people, the Taoiseach is imposing a guillotine. He should at least allow for a proper debate. I put it to the Taoiseach that, such is the severity of the austerity that is now being meted out to people and being rushed through with guillotines, pretty soon the anger of people will rise up——

Deputy Paudie Coffey:    Another protest. That would suit the Deputy, all right.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett:    ——to the point that they will want another type of guillotine to deal with the people who are imposing this austerity.

Deputy Joe Higgins:    The Minister, Deputy Hogan, came in last night and presented Second Stage of the household tax Bill. He had a grin on his face from beginning to end as he was introducing it.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte:    We should certainly put an end to that.

Deputy Emmet Stagg:    You seem to have a bit of a smile yourself, a Cheann Comhairle.

Deputy Joe Higgins:    We need time to explain the implications of this to the Minister, Deputy Hogan. It is not a grinning matter, this new imposition on individuals and families. The vast bulk of ordinary people, the vast bulk of the 1.6 million householders, as the Government says, which is the huge majority of householders and, therefore, a huge majority of the population, are to be coerced into paying this regressive tax.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Joe Higgins:    Therefore, we need time to explain the implications to the Government. Perhaps it will see the light and withdraw it, and go after the bondholders instead and find the funds there——

An Ceann Comhairle:    Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Joe Higgins:    ——or go after the super-wealthy, whose assets are not being touched by the Government, instead of coming back to the same well of ordinary people up and down this country. We need the time for that.

The Taoiseach:    I have heard the four contributions from Deputy Martin, Deputy Adams, Deputy Boyd Barrett and Deputy Higgins. They are all looking for more time to debate the local charges Bill. They make a very good case to come back here next week. So make your minds up. We can go until midnight tonight if Deputies wish to have extra time to discuss this or come back next week. I advise them to make their minds up quickly.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett:    What about tomorrow?

[17]Deputy Timmy Dooley:    The Taoiseach is not a horse dealer.

The Taoiseach:    If they are looking for extra time to debate this, we either take the time off an existing Bill, we extend the time tonight or we come back next week. The choice is yours. Do you want it? I will give it to you.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett:    What is wrong with tomorrow?

Deputy Pat Rabbitte:    You had better get your act together, lads.

Deputy Micheál Martin:    There is actually a law in force called the agency directive that has no legislation at all until after Christmas. Work that one out.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Thank you. I am now putting the question, “That the proposal for dealing with No. 1 be agreed to.”

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald:    A Cheann Comhairle——

Deputy Gerry Adams:    A Cheann Comhairle——

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien:    A Cheann Comhairle, the Taoiseach asked if we wanted to come back.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald:    A question was put.

Question put: “That the proposal for dealing with No. 1, Second and Remaining Stages of the Local Government (Household Charge) Bill 2011, be agreed to.”

The Dáil divided: Tá, 92; Níl, 43.

Tá
Bannon, James.	Barry, Tom.
Breen, Pat.	Butler, Ray.
Buttimer, Jerry.	Byrne, Catherine.
Byrne, Eric.	Cannon, Ciarán.
Carey, Joe.	Coffey, Paudie.
Collins, Áine.	Conaghan, Michael
Conlan, Seán.	Connaughton, Paul J.
Conway, Ciara.	Coonan, Noel.
Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.	Costello, Joe.
Coveney, Simon.	Creed, Michael.
Daly, Jim.	Deenihan, Jimmy.
Deering, Pat.	Doherty, Regina.
Donohoe, Paschal.	Dowds, Robert.
Doyle, Andrew.	Durkan, Bernard J.
English, Damien.	Farrell, Alan.
Feighan, Frank.	Ferris, Anne.
Fitzpatrick, Peter.	Gilmore, Eamon.
Griffin, Brendan.	Hannigan, Dominic.
Harrington, Noel.	Harris, Simon.
Hayes, Tom.	Heydon, Martin.
Hogan, Phil.	Humphreys, Heather.
Humphreys, Kevin.	Keaveney, Colm.
Kehoe, Paul.	Kelly, Alan.
Kenny, Enda.	Kyne, Seán.
Lawlor, Anthony.	Lynch, Ciarán.
Lynch, Kathleen.	Lyons, John.
McCarthy, Michael.	McEntee, Shane.
McFadden, Nicky.	McGinley, Dinny.
McHugh, Joe.	McLoughlin, Tony.
Maloney, Eamonn.	Mathews, Peter.
Mitchell, Olivia.	Mitchell O’Connor, Mary.
Mulherin, Michelle.	Murphy, Eoghan.
Nash, Gerald.	Neville, Dan.
Nolan, Derek.	O’Donnell, Kieran.
O’Donovan, Patrick.	O’Dowd, Fergus.
O’Mahony, John.	O’Reilly, Joe.
O’Sullivan, Jan.	Perry, John.
Phelan, Ann.	Phelan, John Paul.
Quinn, Ruairí.	Rabbitte, Pat.
Reilly, James.	Ring, Michael.
Ryan, Brendan.	Sherlock, Sean.
Shortall, Róisín.	Spring, Arthur.
Stagg, Emmet.	Stanton, David.
Timmins, Billy.	Tuffy, Joanna.
Twomey, Liam.	Wall, Jack.
Walsh, Brian.	White, Alex.

Níl
Adams, Gerry.	Boyd Barrett, Richard.
Broughan, Thomas P.	Browne, John.
Calleary, Dara.	Collins, Joan.
Collins, Niall.	Colreavy, Michael.
Cowen, Barry.	Crowe, Seán.
Daly, Clare.	Donnelly, Stephen S.
Dooley, Timmy.	Ferris, Martin.
Flanagan, Luke ‘Ming’.	Fleming, Tom.
Grealish, Noel.	Halligan, John.
Healy, Seamus.	Higgins, Joe.
Kelleher, Billy	Kitt, Michael P.
Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.	McConalogue, Charlie.
McDonald, Mary Lou.	McGrath, Finian.
McGrath, Mattie.	McLellan, Sandra.
Martin, Micheál.	Moynihan, Michael.
Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.	Ó Cuív, Éamon.
Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.	O’Brien, Jonathan.
O’Dea, Willie.	O’Sullivan, Maureen.
Pringle, Thomas.	Ross, Shane.
Smith, Brendan.	Stanley, Brian.
Tóibín, Peadar.	Troy, Robert.
Wallace, Mick.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Pádraig Mac Lochlainn and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle:    Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members’ business agreed to? Agreed.

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