DAIRY PRODUCE BILL, 1924.—(REPORT STAGE).

Wednesday, 26 November 1924

Seanad Éireann Debate
Vol. 3 No. 21

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AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  I wish to mention that the print of the Bill in possession of members of the Seanad is the Bill before it was amended in Committee of this House. Consequently there may be difficulty in following it, because the list of amendments inserted in Committee have been printed on a separate sheet, and, of course, the Bill now as it stands should have these amendments in it. There was no time to have a fresh print, so that Senators must follow as best they can the Bill and the amendments on the paper.

Section 2.—Immediately after the word “matter” in line 32 to insert the words “the expressions `margarine' and `milk blended' butter [1128] have respectively the same meaning as in the Butter and Margarine Act of 1907.”

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE (Mr. Hogan): Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  It was pointed out at the Special Committee that while the words “margarine,”“factory” and “milk blended butter” occurred in the Act, no definition of these words appeared under Section 2, and that is so. We further discussed in the Special Committee the question of what would be a suitable and convenient definition, and I think it was generally agreed that the definition of these words in the Butter and Margarine Act of 1907 would be a suitable definition. I will read the definition. Margarine is defined as “any article of food, whether mixed with butter, or which resembles butter and is not milk blended butter.”

Milk blended butter, as defined in the same Act, is any mixture produced by mixing or blending either milk or cream other than condensed milk or cream.

Amendment put and agreed to.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  The next amendment is a Government amendment to Section 2, and it reads: To delete in line 6 the words, “on premises registered in the register of,” and to substitute therefor the word “in.”

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  There is really no need for the words which it is proposed to delete. The word “in” covers the point.

Amendment put and agreed to.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  The next is also a Government amendment to the same section. It reads, immediately after the word “authorised” in line 9, to insert the words “in writing.”

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  I think that amendment speaks for itself.

Amendment put and agreed to.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  The next amendment is also a Government amendment. It is to Section 3. It [1129] proposes to delete the section and to substitute the following new section:—

3.—(1) On and after the commencement of this Part of this Act all premises in which dairy produce is manufactured for sale (whether such premises are or are not registered under this Act) shall comply with the following conditions, that is to say—

(a) the premises shall be physically suited for the manufacture of such descriptions of dairy produce as are in fact manufactured therein, and

(b) the premises, and the plant and machinery and the appliances, and the utensils therein, shall be in a state of cleanliness and good repair, and

(c) the milk or cream and all other ingredients and materials used in the process of manufacturing dairy produce on the premises shall be clean, and

(d) the premises shall be situated in such a position and used in such a manner as to prevent the exposure of the dairy produce manufactured therein or any ingredients or materials used in the process of such manufacture to any effluvium from any drain, cesspool, manure-heap, cow-house, pigsty, or to other source of contamination, and

(e) there shall be available on or at the premises such adequate supply of good and wholesome water as may from time to time be reasonably necessary.

(2) All premises in which dairy produce is manufactured for sale and which are registered in any of the registers kept in pursuance of this Act shall be equipped with appropriate appliances and utensils and with such plant and machinery as are required in respect of those premises by or under Part III. of this Act.

(3) Save as is hereinafter excepted, all premises in which dairy produce is manufactured for sale and which are not registered in any of the registers kept in pursuance of this Act shall be provided with such [1130] plant and machinery and such appliances and utensils as are requisite for the manufacture of dairy produce of the description manufactured therein.

(4) Sub-section (3) of this section shall not apply to premises which comply with all the following conditions, that is to say—

(a) the premises are not registered in any of the registers kept in pursuance of this Act, and

(b) the premises are situate on a farm, and

(c) all dairy produce manufactured on the premises for sale is so manufactured only from the milk of cows belonging to the occupier of such farm.

(5) In this Act the expression “conditions of cleanliness and order” means the requirements of this section in regard to the premises in relation to which that expression is used.

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  Senator Brown, as a matter of drafting, suggested that this amendment might be changed mainly in order to make another special sub-section to the first half of clause (f), and that has been done. That is the effect of the new amendment. The new amendment is quite the same down to (e). It was thought, and rightly thought, that the regulations in regard to the registered premises should get a separate clause, and that the regulations in regard to unregistered premises should also get a separate clause. That is the reason for splitting that into two sub-sections, but the effect is the same. There is another sub-section which sets out specifically the exceptions instead of making them a proviso to the section. I notice, however, that there is one point in connection with the sub-section which will arise later on. It is a very important point, and I might as well state the position now. Clause (e) of the amended sub-section reads: “There shall be available on or at the premises such adequate supply of good and wholesome water as may from time to time be reasonably necessary.”

That raises a very important point which will again arise in connection [1131] with some of the other sections of the Bill. Clause (e) of the original section reads: “The premises shall be provided with such adequate supply of good and wholesome water as may from time to time be reasonably necessary.” Senator Sir John Keane suggested that that might possibly come to mean that “premises” under this section might mean farm-houses, and that farm-houses would be required to put in pipes in order to provide a supply of water. He pointed out, and rightly so, that most farm-houses have not got pumps or a supply of spring water in their yards, and that in a good many cases they have to cart a supply of good and wholesome water very long distances to their premises. He said it should be made quite clear under this Bill that the Department of Agriculture ought not have the power to order that pumps or artesian wells should be sunk on the premises of an ordinary farmer. Senator Sir John Keane himself suggested, Senator Brown agreed, and I tentatively agreed to the following words, leaving out the words “at or on the premises,”“there shall be available such adequate supply of good and wholesome water as may from time to time be reasonably necessary.”

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  That amendment has been already made. It was passed in Committee. It is in the Bill though not in the print of the Bill. It is one of the amendments that the Committee have inserted. I have here the report from the Committee, in which they set out in the appendix the amendments that they inserted in the Bill and this is one of them. Subclause (3). in line 47, the words “the premises shall be provided with” are to be deleted and the words “there shall be available” substituted therefor. That amendment, as I say, is already in the Bill.

I want to call the attention of the Seanad to the great inconvenience, and this is an illustration of it, that we suffer in not having the same privilege that the Dáil has. When a Bill passes through Committee in the Dáil it is reprinted and the amendments that have been inserted in Committee appear in [1132] the reprint. That ought to be done in the case of a Bill like this in the Seanad also. Then we would know where we are. As it is, you have got to look at the original Bill, then to look at the report of the Committee, and then we have got to look at the new amendments moved by the Government, whereas if we had a reprint of the Bill as it left the Committee of this House, the matter would be very simple for every member to follow it. I shall take upon myself in the future, in the case of a Bill of any importance, to give directions that it shall be reprinted after it has left the Committee Stage.

Mr. GUINNESS: Information on Henry Seymour Guinness  Zoom on Henry Seymour Guinness  Is the amendment moved by the Minister an amendment to the amendment that was carried by the Committee?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  Yes, that is what I am explaining.

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  The Committee first of all agreed with this amendment, and then agreed to a re-drafting of the whole clause. I was going to ask the leave of the Seanad to alter the amendment which was put in in Committee so far as that particular point was concerned. The amendment on the appendix which I have before me was agreed to in Committee. We have a special amendment here. In line 47, the words, “the premises shall be provided with,” are to be deleted, and the words, “there shall be available,” substituted therefor. In addition, it was agreed in Committee, but this does not appear on the Order Paper, that a certain re-drafting of the whole clause should take place. The re-drafting of the section was suggested by Senator Brown. Whether that is inconsistent or not is the question. Whether our procedure on that occasion was inconsistent hardly arises, but I suggest that we discuss the whole matter in connection with the re-draft of the clause. I wish to ask the leave of the Seanad to make a slight alteration in what was agreed to at the Special Committee.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  Is not this the position, that the new Clause 3 that you propose is the change that commended itself to the Committee, but [1133] they did not insert it in the Bill, and now you want to have it inserted, and an amendment made in it?

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  That is the position. The amendment will amend the specific decision of the Committee as set out here. It was suggested by Sir John Keane that it be made quite clear that the Department of Agriculture had not the power to order a farm house to put in a supply of fresh water by a system of pipes, and he suggested himself, and Senator Brown agreed with him, that the clause might read: “There shall be available such an adequate supply of good, wholesome water as shall be reasonably necessary,” that is to leave out the words, “on or at the premises.”

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  Pardon me for saying that what you want now inserted is already in the Bill. If you look at the Committee's Report you will observe that they have deleted these words, and in lieu thereof they have inserted in the Bill “there shall be available,” so that there is now in the Bill as it stands what you want inserted.

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  No, not exactly, because I want to put in an addition—“there shall be available on or at the premises.” As this point will arise on other sections I would like to state our position in the matter.

Sir THOMAS GRATTAN ESMONDE: Information on Osmond T. Grattan Esmonde  Zoom on Osmond T. Grattan Esmonde  Are we discussing Clause 3, or have we gone on to sub-section 4?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  It is quite plain where we are. I think I have made it plain. You have the clauses in the original Bill as it was sent to the Seanad in the green paper, which contains the Bill in that form when it reached the Seanad. When it was sent to the Committee this particular Clause 3, sub-section (e) in the green print of the Bill was amended. It stood: “the premises shall be provided with such adequate supply”; that is the way it stood. The Committee struck out the words “the premises shall be provided with” and inserted the words “there shall be available.” Now the Government want, in addition, to add, after the word [1134]“available,” the words “on or at the premises.”

Sir JOHN KEANE: Information on John Keane  Zoom on John Keane  Do not the Government want to insert a new complete re-drafting of the section?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  They do.

Sir JOHN KEANE: Information on John Keane  Zoom on John Keane  And the form of words they want in regard to the water are in the new section?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  Yes, if the adoption of the new clause on the Order Paper involves this amendment.

Sir THOMAS GRATTAN ESMONDE: Information on Osmond T. Grattan Esmonde  Zoom on Osmond T. Grattan Esmonde  I understand we were discussing Clause 3 on this yellow paper, page 142; and does the reading of the words and of the proposed amending words substitute that clause for the Government amendment?

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  It was agreed in Committee that this re-drafted section should be inserted, while it was not agreed that the words “on or at the premises” should be put in. Now the first question you have to ask yourself, if simply inserting the words “there shall be available such a supply of good and wholesome water,” is what exactly is the meaning of that? As the words stand at present they are hardly good drafting, and hardly the definite and precise language that should be in an Act of the Oireachtas. We had to improve them, therefore, and for these reasons: We may disagree afterwards on what we want to effect. It is, I think, clear enough that “there shall be available an adequate supply of wholesome water” is not good re-drafting. It is really an expedient for avoiding the points of difference before us. The real points of difference, or perhaps I should say the real points of agreement are—we want to make it clear that we do not want to coerce any owner of a farmhouse to put in a supply of water, while we do wish that a supply of water shall be available at the premises, wherever it comes from.

That is our position with regard to Section 3, which deals not only with registered factories and creameries, but which deals with farmhouses as well When it comes to creameries our position [1135] in the matter is that every creamery and every butter factory and every manufacturing exporter should have an adequate supply of water. In fact, I think every single one of them—and I have gone over the list—have on their premises a supply of good and wholesome water sufficient for the purpose. In any event, we wish to make it clear that we are going to require that every creamery shall have a supply of good and wholesome water on the premises. To meet that point, and to meet this looseness in drafting, the suggestion was that we should insert here in the clause that deals not only with creameries but farmhouses, the words, “there shall be available at or on the premises a supply of good and wholesome water.”

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  The only distinction between farmhouses and a registered creamery would be the word “at”. In other words, it would be compulsory that there should be a supply of water on the premises in the case of a creamery and at the premises in the case of a farmhouse.

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  It will be a matter for the draftsman.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  What would you think of this, “there shall be available at or in direct connection with”?

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  You mean for Sub-section 3?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  Yes.

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  What would you suggest for Section 15, which deals with creameries?

CHAIRMAN:  “On” would do there.

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  That would make it clearer.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  That would mean that though it was on the premises it came from a source or it was brought from a source in direct contact with the premises. You see the source of supply might be outside the premises. But so long as the water is brought in there the position would be satisfactory.

Colonel MOORE: Information on Maurice George Moore  Zoom on Maurice George Moore  I think the original [1136] phrase is the best. “In direct connection,” means or might mean that the water was brought there through a pipe.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  The difficulty is that the words “on or at the premises” might raise trouble if the supply well was a yard outside the premises.

Mrs. COSTELLO: Information on Eileen Ellen Costello  Zoom on Eileen Ellen Costello  The supply is much farther than a yard outside the door in most country houses.

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  I will agree to alter the words to “on or within reach of the premises.”

Mr. KENNY: Information on Patrick W Kenny  Zoom on Patrick W Kenny  That might mean ten miles.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  By what method could it be brought, motor or aeroplane? The drafting would be a little too wide.

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  I was going to make a bargain with the Seanad—if we do not get in “on or within reach of the premises” to leave the reference to creameries, butter factories and manufacturing exporters in the same words as it appears now.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  “There shall be available on or within the immediate vicinity of the premises” might meet the case.

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  Well, say “on or near.”

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  “On or close to it.”

Colonel MOORE: Information on Maurice George Moore  Zoom on Maurice George Moore  Perhaps what you are trying to get at is that a barrel of water carted from the stream to the house should be sufficient.

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  Provided it is good water. We also want to make it impossible for any man to say: “There is no water within ten miles of me, but I always cart it.”

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  I think if you said “or reasonably near” it would be better.

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  That is what we mean. That would exactly meet the point.

[1137]AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  Does the Seanad understand that we are only dealing with the amendment to Section 3, and the amendment is to provide for the case of farmhouses? When we come to the registered premises the word “on” will be left there without any qualification.

Mr. KENNY: Information on Patrick W Kenny  Zoom on Patrick W Kenny  As to the words “reasonably near,” you might have a situation like this: A person might have water reasonably near, but would not have access to it, as it might be on private property.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH:  That would not come within the section. It must be, of course, water to which the farmer has the right of access.

Mr. KENNY: Information on Patrick W Kenny  Zoom on Patrick W Kenny  That is my former suggestion —“reasonably procurable.” There is no use in having it near if he cannot get it.

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  The section amounts to that, because it would read: “there shall be available reasonably near.” May I explain in connection with this, that we are now altering one of the conditions of cleanliness and order. That is to say, condition (e) in the original Bill. We are doing this in order to make special provision for the farmhouses. We had a clause which satisfied us not only in regard to the farmhouses but in regard to the creameries in these conditions of cleanliness and order. We did not insert any such clause in the sections dealing with creameries, but, as we have altered this clause, it will be necessary when we come to the clauses in connection with creameries and butter manufactures to insert a clause somewhat similar to clause (e).

Amendment, as amended, put and agreed to.

Amendment 5 not moved.

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  Before you come to the next amendment on the Order Paper, there is obviously an amendment required in Section 4, to insert after the word “inspector” the words “subject to the production by him, if so required, of his authority in writing as such inspector.”

[1138] Amendment put and agreed to.

The following Government amendments were also agreed to:—

Section 10, sub-section (1).—Immediately after the word “entitled” in line 12 to insert the words “(subject to the production by him, if so required, of his authority in writing as such inspector).”

Section 10, sub-section (1).—Immediately after the word “Act” in line 14 to insert the words “or under the Sale of Food and Drugs Acts, 1875 to 1907.”

Government amendment:—

Section 14, sub-section (1): Immediately after the word “Eireann” in line 29 to insert the words “not registered in the register of creameries,” and in lines 30-31 to delete the words “a creamery business or.”

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  The premises of a manufacturing exporter are premises where butter is made, not from cream separated on the premises, but from cream collected from farmers. A creamery is a premises where butter is made from cream separated from the milk supplied by a number of individuals, on the premises. The section as it originally read was as follows:—

(c) a register (to be called and known as the register of manufacturing exporters) of all premises in Saorstát Eireann in which the business of manufacturing butter for export, but not a creamery business or a butter factory business, is carried on.

If you turn to the definition of creamery business, Section 2, it reads:—

the expression “creamery business” means the business of manufacturing butter from cream which has been separated by means of centrifugal force mechanically applied from the commingled milk supplies of a number of cow-keepers....

In fact, creamery business is carried on as well as other business in the premises of a manufacturing exporter.

Manufacturing exporters—in the few cases where they are—take the whole milk, separate it on the premises, and make butter. In addition, they collect cream, and make butter from that. [1139] They do, in fact, carry on creamery business within the definition of the words “creamery business” in the first section, and the business of a manufacturing exporter. In order to clear up that point we suggest instead:—

not registered in the register of creameries in which the business of manufacturing butter for export, but not a butter factory business, is carried on...

Amendment put and agreed to.

Government amendment:—

Section 15, sub-section (5): To delete lines 4 and 5 and to substitute therefor the following:—

“(5) No premises which are themselves used for or which form part of or communicate (otherwise than by a public road or street) with any premises used for.”

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  This is merely a drafting amendment.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Government Amendment:—

Section 15, sub-section (5).—Immediately after the word “dealing” in line 6 to insert the words “(otherwise than under a licence granted under this Act).”

Mr. HOGAN: Information on Patrick J. Hogan  Zoom on Patrick J. Hogan  We have power under Section 16, and other sections, to give a licence to bring any sort of butter on premises under special circumstances. It is in order to make these sections consistent with this that this drafting amendment is inserted.

Amendment put and agreed to.

The following Government amendments were agreed to:—

Section 15, sub-section (6).—To delete lines 11 and 12 and to substitute therefor the following:—

“(6) No premises which are themselves used for or which form part of or communicate (other than by a public road or street) with any premises used.”

Section 15, sub-section (6).—Immediately after the word “for” in line 13 to insert the words “the manufacture of or.”

[1140] Section 15, sub-section (6).—Immediately after the word “dealing” in line 13 to insert the words “(otherwise than under a licence granted under this Act).”


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