Fitzgerald, Alexis

Wednesday, 8 July 1970

Seanad Eireann Debate
Vol. 68 No. 11

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Is this in order?More Button

First of all I should like to say that I think that on the Second Reading the Minister was excessively modest in suggesting that he was inadequately presenting the purposes of the Bill, so that I feel...More Button

Is this not extremely undesirable? It may not be in the interests of the furtherance of the good works of that body. It should be free to enter into commercial activities and invest the money which ...More Button

If I accept that amendment, am I precluded from proposing again consideration of my amendment on Report Stage?More Button

How does the Minister consider taking deliberations of the problems arising concerning the health of a person? How does one deliberate on health without going mad?More Button

I wish to withdraw my amendment since I cannot agree to the Minister's amendment.More Button

I hope to spare the House that but I wish to consider it. Amendment amended, by leave, by the insertion of the words “under its constitution” before “consist” in line 2. Amendment, as amended, agreed ...More Button

I do not think Senator Ryan's point is very valid. It is a matter which finally rests with the Minister. Any discussions with persons who will be well informed on this and with the Minister for Indu...More Button

There is a great time coming for the Irish courts if those organisations enter into any contracts pursuant to any body corporate status order that is made in relation to them. I can say that with som...More Button

You are dealing with a constitutional position in which the lawyers' duty is to present the citizens' rights to the courts of justice. We have no other duty. It is the courts of justice under the Co...More Button

For my part, and I think that this is true also of others who have taken part in this debate, I am not merely concerned with protecting the activities of the corporation from people with whom it makes...More Button

I move amendment No. 6: Between lines 26 and 27 to insert the following: “A body to which a corporate status order relates is hereby added to the list of qualified persons contained in section 45 of t...More Button

That may be, but it would be very bad in any event if this body were in any way embarrassed by the provisions of the Land Act, 1965, and I should be glad to get the necessary references, if the Minist...More Button

I move amendment No. 7:More Button

I do not wish to press this amendment. I must say that the Minister's legal advisers have not allowed that there is an area of doubt here as to the ability of the Minister to confer Irish body corpor...More Button

I move amendment No. 8:More Button

I am prepared to accept the amendment.More Button

I move amendment No. 9: Before section 4 to insert the following new section:— The constitution of a body to which a corporate status order relates must: (a) be printed: (b) be divided into paragraphs...More Button

I move amendment No. 10: Before section 4 to insert the following new section:— (1) A body to which a corporate status order relates shall, notwithstanding anything omitted from its constitution, hav...More Button

Then we will discuss them together. I shall begin by referring to amendment No. 11. On Second Reading, I made a reference to the fact that if the body were to be incorporated under the Companies Act...More Button

I do not know. I am extremely disappointed at the Minister's reaction to this and I certainly intend to press it very far, as far as I can. I think he is making a very wrong decision indeed and tha...More Button

I think Senator O'Higgins has made a point extraordinarily well which supports the proposition which I have made because many countries do not have laws which provide for seals. It is a perfect examp...More Button

It is an example of how they do not understand our system.More Button

I appreciate very much the Minister's attitude. I should like to withdraw all these amendments. While agreeing before discussing the particular amendments, would the Minister consent to having amend...More Button

Yes.More Button

I move amendment No. 11: Before section 4 to insert the following new section:— (1) Any act or thing done by a body to which a body corporate status order relates which if such body had been empowered...More Button

I move amendment No. 12: Before section 4 to insert the following new section:—More Button

There is nothing in the Bill which would prevent this body from issuing a prospectus. If a prospectus were issued and people did subscribe they would do so as unprotected as they were 250 years ago wh...More Button

I am satisfied they are splendid people. So were the South Sea companies until the bubble burst. This is historically true.More Button

I am not wedded to the language of the amendment. I do not want to refer to the Companies Act. The Minister dislikes references to it. I would be prepared to recommend to the House that the amendmen...More Button

I move amendment No. 13: Before section 5 to insert the following new section:— (1) For the purposes of the registration of bodies to which body corporate status orders relate the Minister shall maint...More Button

At one point, the Minister becomes very cross with lawyers and, at another point, he is very well informed about the law, far better informed than are some lawyers. I studied section 15 which, I pres...More Button

As I already said I am not really pressing that part of the amendment if the Minister really objects to it. I press him to consider subsection (4) and subsection (5) There are a few things new in thi...More Button

This results from to much talk imposed on me by what I felt I had to do. I think the registrar should keep a list of the directors, manager, secretary, members of the committee of management or other...More Button

The Minister can get this but not persons dealing with those bodies.More Button

I have scrupulously refrained from collapsing anything.More Button

This is not Fine Gael argument.More Button

It is really a bit much when I have scrupulously kept to each section that I should be drawn into the political arena in relation to a matter which I would have thought is totally non-political.More Button

I thought it was the practice in this House for Members when addressing the House simply to do so without other people making speeches at the same time.More Button

If this practice is not the practice of the House I would propose to avail of it myself.More Button

I thought section 5 as drafted, which I have redrafted in this amendment, was not full or adequate for the purposes of persons dealing with it. I do not follow the Minister at all on this matter of t...More Button

With the consent of the House I will withdraw the amendment on that basis. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Section 5 agreed to. NEW SECTION.More Button

I move amendment No. 14: 14. Before section 6 to insert the following new section:— (1) Any person may (a) inspect the documents kept by the registrar to be appointed under section 5 on payment of suc...More Button

Despite all the irritations which have been provided him the Minister has kept on demonstrating an openness of mind which is encouraging. I would invite the Minister to have subsection (2) specially ...More Button

I move amendment No. 15: Before section 6 to insert the following new section:— (1) A document may be served on a body to which a body corporate status order relates by leaving it at or sending it by...More Button

I cannot see why the Minister is making that point or that there is any validity whatever in pointing to a defect in any other Act as a reason for not having a defect removed from the present Bill. T...More Button

The Minister must not be obsessed with the word “international”. He must not approach this legislation in this fashion. There are other people whom he wishes to attract here. The citizens of Irelan...More Button

This is not a political debate.More Button

The constitutions of those bodies are different from the constitution of this body.More Button

That proves nothing. Some bodies can get through many years without litigation and through subsidisation of public funds they are able to settle disputes without bringing them into courts. If the Mi...More Button

——then we will have a nice debate.More Button

I invite the Minister to open his mind to the consequences of this legislation. Notice must be given of a summons in Iris Oifigiúil and in local newspapers in the district in which the defendant to b...More Button

I am grateful to Senator Bourke for having spoken. If it has been considered necessary to correct me in anything I have said, I would suggest that I would not expect these bodies to behave badly and ...More Button

I move amendment No. 16: Before section 7 to insert the following new section:More Button

It is the shortest wills that make the biggest fortunes for the lawyers who have to interpret them. I do not think Senator Nash will disagree with that. It does not necessarily mean that you will co...More Button

I move amendment No. 17. Before section 7 to insert the following new section:— The corporate status order made by the Minister in relation to a body shall be conclusive evidence that all the requirem...More Button

I move amendment No. 18:More Button

The whole criminal code is part of this.More Button

What is the effect of it? I have not studied it as I am too busy drafting amendments.More Button

That is certainly acceptable. Amendment agreed to.More Button

I move amendment No. 20: To add to the section the following new subsection:— (3) Section 344 of the Companies Act, 1963, is hereby amended to include within the meaning of unregistered company a body...More Button

I will very shortly summarise the effect of the adoption of amendment No. 20. A body corporate under this Bill would be unregistered under section 344 of the Companies Act, which provides for the wi...More Button

I am very grateful to the Minister for his reaction to that, but the fact that sections of an Act have not been challenged yet in the court does not mean that they will not be challenged. The Sinn Fé...More Button

It seems appropriate for me to make this point here because it is only in this section that we have anything which amounts to a punishment for a breaches. I think there should be some punishments gre...More Button

I move amendment No. 22: Before section 8 to insert the following new section:— “The Minister may by order prescribe forms to be used in connection with any of the provisions of this Act.”More Button

I move amendment No. 23: Before section 8 to insert the folowing new section:— “A document or proceeding requiring authentication by a body to which a corporate status order relates may be signed by a...More Button

Is the Minister entirely satisfied about that?More Button

I am unable at this moment to cite the reference to the Companies Act but I think the Minister will find the Companies Act will contain such a provision. The thing to remember about the Companies Act...More Button

I move amendment No. 24: Before section 8 to insert the following new section:— “In the case of any body to which a corporate status order relates which becomes insolvent the provisions of sections 28...More Button

I thank the Minister. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Section 8 agreed to. SECTION 9. Amendment No. 25 not moved. Section 9 agreed to. NEW SECTION.More Button

I move amendment No. 26: Before section 10 to insert the following new section:— The Minister shall cause a general annual report of matters within this Act to be prepared and laid before both Houses ...More Button

I move amendment No. 27: Before section 10 to insert the following new section:— (1) The Minister may specify fees (calculated by reference to expenses incurred) to be paid in respect of the registra...More Button

I move amendment No. 28: Before section 10 to insert the following new section:—More Button

Might I add my voice to that by saying if one of those international health bodies came to instruct either Senator O'Higgins or myself and the Minister was not disposed to revoke section 7 perhaps he ...More Button


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