Fitzgerald, Alexis

Wednesday, 5 May 1971

Seanad Eireann Debate
Vol. 70 No. 1

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Unit Trusts Bill, 1970: Report Stage.

I am pleased to agree to these amendments which meet the points that I made on Committee Stage. I am sorry the Minister will not consider the advantages of the definition of “holding company” in the ...More Button

This amendment meets entirely what I asked for in relation to this and I accept it. Amendment agreed to. Government amendment No. 3: In page 3, between lines 7 and 8, to insert the following: “‘subsid...More Button

I am glad we are in Committee for this one. I can understand that the Minister would have been under pressure to have an amendment of this kind, but I should have thought he could have made a concess...More Button

I am afraid that what the Minister has said does not ease my dissatisfaction with the proposed amendments to these sections. I shall deal with the points as they occur to me. There are rights given t...More Button

Which, subject to certain conditions, the Minister cannot refuse them.More Button

I am quite satisfied with that. Amendment agreed to. Government amendment No. 9: In page 4, line 9, to delete “the deed” and to substitute “a copy of the deed”More Button

I am quite happy with both of these amendments. Amendment agreed to.More Button

I move amendment No. 13: In page 4 between lines 38 and 39 to insert the following new section:— (1) On the alteration of the terms of the deed (in due compliance with the provisions thereof) which e...More Button

I had not failed to note the provisions in amendment No. 50. It would seem to me to be appropriate to interpose at this point, in relation to the cancellation of the scheme, before the section dealin...More Button

I have spoken on the amendment. Is it necessary to have a division if I wish to press the amendment? I would prefer if the Minister would consider this and come back with an amendment because it is ...More Button

Can the Minister consider this for the Dáil? It is a tidying-up operation, not in the language I used but perhaps by elaborating some reference to amendment No. 50.More Button

But it is fulfilled once the deed is deposited. It is not any longer now. It is one of these once-and-for-all operations.More Button

If the deed is deposited that is the end of the Minister's power to do anything about it.More Button

There is nothing about that. If the Minister puts that in I would be delighted.More Button

Yes, but it does not give the Minister power of cancellation. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.More Button

I move amendment No. 14: In page 4, line 44 after “fulfilled” to insert “because in the case of paragraph (f) there has been failure to comply with the provisions of the preceding section”.More Button

I move Amendment No. 15: In page 4, line 47 after “section 3 (1)” to insert “because in the case of paragraph (g) the Minister, on consideration of the particulars of change of name deposited pursuant...More Button

I move amendment No. 16: In page 5, line 3 to delete “and” and substitute “or”.More Button

I move amendment No. 17: In page 5, line 18 to delete “and” and substitute “or”.More Button

We want his hand to be strengthened.More Button

I do not have very much to say. I think the advantage to the community lies with the proposals which are in these two amendments. I challenge the quality of my own imagination in not being able to g...More Button

I move amendment No. 18:More Button

Not merely do I withdraw these amendments, but I am convinced by what the Minister has said with regard to them. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.More Button

I move ment No. 19: In page 6, line 35, to delete “and” and substitute “or”. Amendment agreed to.More Button

I move amendment No. 20: In page 6, line 38, to delete “and” and substitute “or”. Amendment agreed to. Amendment No. 21 not moved. Amendment No. 22 not moved.More Button

I move amendment No. 24: In page 8, line 40, after “Iris Oifigiúil” to insert “as soon as may be”. I am not wedded to the words here but it seems to me to be very desirable that the public and the new...More Button

It was 153 days.More Button

I am worried about this. I was not happy with the words I put down, which just came easily to me. I think we have had quite a number of Bills here where there were provisions actually specifying da...More Button

Might I ask a question here? The next amendment is, I think, an amendment to this amendment.More Button

I see.More Button

Yes, I accept this amendment. Amendment agreed to.More Button

I move amendment No. 26: In page 8, lines 43 and 44, to delete “the person who publishes the advertisement and”.More Button

We have a surfeit of mergers——More Button

Anything the Minister would do.More Button

I am not pressing my amendment in the light of what has been said. If Senator O'Higgins's suggestion is adopted, the words “in knowing contravention” or something of that kind would appear. I know th...More Button

I move amendment No. 27: In page 9, line 48 after “order” to insert “and different charges may be specified in the order in relation to different schemes according to the nature, distinctive features ...More Button

I take it that the Chair will permit me to answer the question. I think that the amendment lacks a bracket after “schemes”.More Button

That entirely satisfies me. I was only seeking clarification on that. It seemed to be so necessary that this flexibility should be there; and if the Minister is satisfied he has it then that satisfi...More Button

I move amendment No. 28: In page 9, line 56, after “thereof” to insert “or any specified scheme whether constituting a class or not”. This is to give the Minister power to provide for a different prop...More Button

In that case I will withdraw it. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment No. 29 not moved.More Button

I move amendment No. 30: In page 9, line 63, after “State” to insert “provided that the proportion so specified of any such property shall not exceed in value 30 per centum of such property”. This ame...More Button

I must immediately confess to seeing a piece of very bad drafting there. Senator Sheldon has drawn my attention to it. I had intended that amendment to take in all the funds in the unit trust scheme ...More Button

Could amendment No. 31 be taken with amendment No. 32? Would there be any objection to that course? What I am here proposing in amendment No. 32 is, in effect, to substitute for the estimate by the ...More Button

I move amendment No. 31: In page 10, line 3, to delete “, estimated by the Minister,”.More Button

The reputable manager——More Button

You would not register trusts unless the manager and trustee were bona fide.More Button

Therefore they are selecting proper brokers and valuers. I am told a very good investment at the moment, if any of you have any money to spare, is to buy a plot of land in Johannesburg, towards the c...More Button

It is only an illustration.More Button

Except the Minister is not proposing to do it because he is tying his hand to this paragraph by reference to the value estimated by the Minister. I would withdraw very happily these two amendments if...More Button

The Minister is limiting himself here. He is putting himself into a statutory position that he should not be in. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment No. 32 not moved.More Button

Did you say that they may be taken together or that they must be taken together?More Button

This will tax my intelligence very considerably. Government amendment No. 33: In page 10, line 10, before “carrying” to insert “(other than an arrangement to which this paragraph applies)”.More Button

I am obliged to the Minister but I would like if he did not sit down. Paragraph (c) says: Where securities are held under any trust created under a registered trust scheme—More Button

An arrangement is defined for the purposes of this paragraph as: any arrangement made for the purpose, or having the effect, of providing facilities for the participation by the public in profits or i...More Button

If you had a company carrying on business which the Minister thought was wholly being carried on in the State, the whole of these securities would be taken as Irish other than investments which result...More Button

Business of the Seanad.

Would you permit me to address you on the last topic that has been under discussion, because the consensus of this party came into this House today with the desire to debate this motion today because ...More Button

I should like wholeheartedly to agree with what my colleague, Senator O'Higgins, has said about your own impartiality which does not arise even. Indeed, as you have stated the matter to us, you seem ...More Button

I am informed by my colleagues that the Order which the motion seeks to annul appears as No. 28 on the Order Paper. Senator Honan said it was not on the Order Paper.More Button

Was Senator Brugha in order in discussing this matter?More Button

I suggest he was in order, because the resolution that we made this morning provided for him to come here and tell us what were the items to be debated today. He did his duty, he did tell us. This i...More Button

Unit Trusts Bill, 1970: Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage.

I regret that between 6 p.m. and now I was engaged otherwise. I had not a great deal of time to get this as clear as I would have liked. I think it is worth taking a look at paragraph (c) with a view...More Button

It takes in any body corporate whether it is an investment one or not? I am quite unable to make a suggestion. I think it would involve an analysis of companies and consideration with merchant banke...More Button

Four only; very good. Then we can look at (iii). It deals with the securities acquired under the arrangements defined in the new paragraph (d). In case any of the securities are rights or interests ...More Button

You cannot have a unit trust scheme that is not a registered unit trust scheme.More Button

It does, but it is defined in language that is so completely different from the definition of a unit trust scheme that it is patently not a unit trust scheme. I have no difficulty about the second le...More Button

Well, maybe this is what you are trying to do and you are satisfied that it does it. I do not mind.More Button

“Such proportion of the rights or interests as is equal to the proportion of the property for the time being the subject of the arrangement that is...”More Button

“...deemed for the purposes of this section to be Irish securities”. That only applies to an unregistered unit trust scheme. It does not apply to a registered unit trust scheme.More Button

Well, it says it does not. Subparagraph (i) of paragraph (3) deals only with an unregistered unit trust scheme.More Button

Well, I see what you are trying to do but I am not satisfied that you achieve what you are setting out to do. Presumably you are on your way to the Dáil and will have time to think again.More Button

Despite the earlier ruling of the Chair I am delighted to hear it. I cannot say any more than I have said with regard to paragraph (3). Paragraph (4) takes in “other than the rules specified in subp...More Button

Yes. I see. “Shares or debentures or rights or interests in any shares or debentures, of a body corporate carrying on a business. ...” I take it anywhere; such of them as are issued in the State sha...More Button

They would be issued here.More Button

So if you get a body corporate that was not carrying on business it could come over here and issue shares. I think I have said enough—said too much in trying to say a few things—but it is much too co...More Button

I am very happy with the Minister's reaction to what I found, I must confess, a very difficult series of amendments to grasp. I think it is pertinent to my observations on this to refer to its workabi...More Button

I welcome this amendment very much. It almost wholly disposes of the difficulties I had about this particular subsection. I move my amendment to the amendment, as follows: After “offence” to add “pr...More Button

I think it would be. I am satisfied save for subsection (3) (a) that the Minister's amendment has got rid of everything that is offensive in the section. Therefore—and I think Senator Russell will a...More Button

Well, you know——More Button

The drafting is bad. I quite see the point.More Button

I can hardly continue to press an amendment which would seem to achieve the opposite to what I intended. I am grateful to the Minister for drawing my attention to what my real thoughts on the matter ...More Button

I move amendment No. 39: In page 10 to delete lines 51 to 55 and substitute:— 9.—(1) The assets which are subject to any trusts created under a registered unit trust scheme shall initially be constitu...More Button

I appreciate the Minister's attitude to this, which is similar to his attitude throughout the debate. I have just one final point to make in relation to the amendment, and that is that the section r...More Button

I am grateful to the Minister for this amendment, which I support. Amendment agreed to.More Button

I would very much welcome this amendment. I know it is a little complex but I think the complexity was necessary in order to save innocent people and to give them opportunities of getting out of such...More Button

I move amendment No. 42: In page 11, line 15, after “scheme” to add:— Provided that:— (i) No such request to purchaser shall be valid unless the holder shall have delivered to the managers or their au...More Button

The man in the street here has a statutory right.More Button

If somebody has lost his certificates he would be statutorily bound to pay him back according to this amendment.More Button

That is interesting. What else does it mean?More Button

Why do you not say when?More Button

I am grateful to Senator Robinson for drawing attention to this, particularly if I am reading section 19 correctly. The offences are not small. Summary conviction may bring a fine not exceeding £100...More Button

The Minister will not register a unit trust scheme unless the deed is in a form of which he approves. He will see that the provisions protective of the investor and protective of the manager are in ...More Button

The Minister will consider——More Button

It was to meet the Minister's own point that my proposed amendment was inflexible. I introduced the idea to him to propose an amendment to his own section which would not be inflexible in any way and...More Button

Agreed. Government amendment No. 43: In page 11, to delete lines 16 to 18, and to substitute the following:More Button

I move: After “scheme” to add “save in accordance with the provisions of the deed expressing the unit trust scheme of which the Minister has approved”. I must explain that I find myself in a difficult...More Button

What about keeping units? What about units being brought back and not being cancelled? They are doing that and making money out of the movement in the value of the underlying assets?More Button

Yes, they buy back on Monday a lot of units from people who were either taking a wrong view of the market or want money. They take a certain view of the market and they do not cancel them. They keep...More Button

I would like to see that put in. As drafted, that is not in and there is no equivalent UK section we can cite. I construe that as meaning that dealing in a unit of the kind I mention involves trans...More Button

Could you not add the words that you have used yourself “provided that this shall not apply to transactions in units”?More Button

There is no equivalent to this section and, therefore, we do not know how it would be construed. I certainly would think that anybody in the semi-trustee position of the manager vis-à-vis his unit tr...More Button

I welcome this amendment which meets my view on this. Amendment agreed to. Government amendment No. 46: In page 11, line 42, to delete “so appointed” and to substitute “appointed auditor of a company”...More Button

Yes. There were points made in relation to both these and I accept them. Amendment agreed to. Government amendment No. 47: In page 12, line 21, after “officers” to insert “or past “officers”. Amendme...More Button

We are both satisfied that the proposed amendment is meeting completely what we asked for. Amendment agreed to. Government amendment No. 51: In page 13, line 6, after “may” to insert “, on his own ini...More Button

This is a welcome amendment. Amendment agreed to. Government amendment No. 52: In page 13, to delete lines 12 to 25, and to substitute: “(2) Sections 167, 168, and 170 (other than subsection (3)) of t...More Button

I agree that the amendment is elaborate but is improving. Amendment agreed to.More Button

I move amendment No. 54: In page 14, line 3, after “offence” to insert “save that the trustee shall not be guilty of an offence under section 10 if either the document has been issued by the manager w...More Button

I am certainly assisted by Senator Sheldon's contribution. The Minister has been very generous in the many amendments that he has given us at this stage to meet points raised by Members of the House ...More Button

I welcome this amendment very much. It meets very well a point which I think was valid and could have been embarrassing in the operation of the Unit Trust Bill. It is appropriate that I should say g...More Button

Business of Seanad.

Are we not varying the Order of Business?More Button

It can be done.More Button

Social Welfare (Remuneration Limit for Insured Persons) Order, 1971: Motion.

The House will be pleased to hear that I know little about this code. There were a couple of things however that occurred to me in relation to this raising of remuneration. I had a case myself in re...More Button

I knew that. What the Minister has said applies equally well, does it not, to the manual worker?More Button

What happens to the person who has exceeded the £1,200 limit and stayed out until the £1,600 is reached missing four years contribution? Is there any provision in the scheme whereby his period of abs...More Button

Business of Seanad.

We will do it all tonight.More Button

At any rate we will not be dealing with the Employment Agency Bill tomorrow.More Button


Last Updated: 15/09/2010 05:29:16 First Page Previous Page Page of 10 Next Page Last Page